Thinking of Leaving the U.S.? Consider This First
Posted by HossAcross@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 287 comments
As an American who’s lived in Europe for over a decade as an MBA student, EU bLue card holder and currently in the Netherlands on a DAFT visa, here’s what I’ve learned:
Reasons Not to Move Abroad:
- It’s not an escape hatch: Moving abroad won’t solve personal, financial, or career issues. It often amplifies them. Remember that every country has its own challenges and people often over simplify the realities of cultures and systems different from their own when idealizing them.
- You’ll still face bureaucracy and inequality: Just because you’ve left the U.S. doesn’t mean you’ve entered paradise. The grass isn’t always greener. Differences in lifestyle and the acceptance of minorities is more common in the U.S. than most places in the world.
- Social isolation is real: It can take years to truly integrate into a new culture, make close friends, and feel “at home.” Years away from family and friends often changes relationships more than anticipated.
- Professional opportunities may shrink: Unless you’re in high-demand sectors or bring specialized skills, earning potential abroad often pales in comparison to the U.S.
Key Considerations Before Making the Leap:
- Why are you leaving? Be honest with yourself. If it’s just to escape U.S. problems, you may find yourself disillusioned.
- Do you have the right visa? Visas like the DAFT (Dutch American Friendship Treaty) are for entrepreneurs willing to hustle hard in a capitalist grind—it isn’t for everyone. Research carefully and evaluate yourself honestly! Most people not prepared for that fact and/or without significant pre existing resources fail on the DAFT visa.
- Can you adapt professionally? Many countries have different work cultures, often less fast-paced than the U.S. If your professional success thrives on American systems, openness and dynamic economy, you may struggle if you can't maintain those ties.
- Are you financially ready? Moving abroad is expensive. Between visas, taxes, and cost of living differences, it can take a toll. Can you fund travel to the U.S. for family emergencies?
- Are you ready for cultural differences? There will be frustrations—language barriers, cultural norms, and “how things are done” won’t align with your expectations. Most cultures outside of the U.S. do not accept outsiders as "one of us" no matter how well they speak the language or how long they live there. Children placed in local schools will normally be expected to adapt completely to the host culture and often be expected to follow strict educational and professional paths. You are not moving into a blank slate designed to help you "live your best life". You are moving into a world that you must adapt to.
I left the U.S. because I wanted an international experience and my love of travel and international business. I’ve realized that my strongest professional success still ties back to the U.S. system. Moving abroad shouldn't be about “running away”; but about running toward the right opportunity for you.
kiefer-reddit@reddit
I have been in Europe / abroad for a decade and I agree with basically everything you’ve said here.
But I actually think it’s much simpler: are you prepared to be an outside, indefinitely? Because that’s what the expat experience is going to be like in 99/100 situations.
Personally, I like being American and wouldn’t want to be from anywhere else. But I like being American outside of America more than being there, and at this point it’s become a key aspect of my identity. If you aren’t willing to accept this identity, you will struggle.
oils-and-opioids@reddit
This is severely underestimated. In many places you will always be "the American", regardless of how well you learn the local language or how long you've been there.
Not to mention, a lot of people seem unprepared about how much any of these countries want immigrants. A lot of the same anti-immigrant things trump is saying are being said in Germany and France and the Netherlands too. Except now it'll apply to them. To these sorts of people there are no "good immigrants"
gingkogal37@reddit
Yup. I’ve been living in Brazil for a few years now. Speak the language fluently, married to a Brazilian, pregnant with a Brazilian-American child, participate in local community, etc. I am still referred to as “a gringa” by most people and at best am ignored or my way of speaking is mocked. Worst has been when people actively speak negatively about me to my face for being American or refuse to speak to me altogether. It’s not for the weak.
MoonbeamPixies@reddit
Americans do this too with their immigrants
Dry-News9719@reddit
Foreigners are envious of Americans - as anecdotal as that sounds. I’ve also traveled a ton and experienced what you described.
HabitAccomplished124@reddit
Foreigners are NOT envious of "Americans" (America is a continent, not a country, first thing why all of you are hated). The contempt against "Americans" is because everybody else in the world except Americans KNOW what the United States of America has done pretty much since ever around the world to keep their interests intact. Let's name a few: wars, coup d'etat, killings, counterrevolution tactics, kidnapping, the assassination of progressive leaders, and an extremely long list of multiple crimes. So yes, keep thinking that foreigners ENVY rather than having a better awareness of history.
Pale-Candidate8860@reddit
They just pissed that your baby gonna be gorgeous.
POWRAXE@reddit
In what way are you treated differently as "the American"?
oils-and-opioids@reddit
I'm British, so I'm "the Brit", but it depends. Some is more benign than others.
On a daily basis, I'll get backhanded compliments or insults on my German, that it's "good for a Brit" or comments how our education system can't properly teach us a foreign language. Comments about how stupid we are for Brexit, how awful the NHS is, etc.
On the more "in your face side", I hear "Ausländer Raus" all the time, but other Germans will just brush it off as someone being "ironic". I've been yelled at on public transport for having a private conversation in English and told in German that "this is Germany and we speak German here". The most uncomfortable though was when an old guy on a tram sat next to me, and pointed out all the places that "my people" bombed and destroyed in the second world war.
InvestigatorGreen397@reddit
My parents moved from Detroit to the South and 20 years later they were called "Yankees" by a certain subset. It can even happen in US.
artsy-mom@reddit
Omg "Yankees "!? Talk about antiquated! Lol
retrosenescent@reddit
Many Americans have been outsiders in America their entire lives - this is especially true for us LGBT people who may need to escape soon due to Project 2025
kiefer-reddit@reddit
Yeah judging from your post history, you’re pretty clueless about the world. Good luck.
pootiemomma@reddit
I am an american but I've never been really entitled to the american identity because i'm a black woman. I don't even feel american until I'm in another country. So feeling like an outsider isn't going to be a foreign concept for me.
Raangz@reddit
being an outsider would certainly be preferable to being an enemy. many of us are going to be on the enemy category in the US soon. i think that is why so many people are trying to escape the US, if they have any chance to.
i have lived in korea for a year, so i understand it's absolutely not easy. having said that, the US we all knew is changing into a very ugly and bad thing. i just can't imagine any scenario of somebody staying in the US long term if they have a chance to move to europe. there really is not a good future to be had in the US anymore.
i know most will not be able to escape here, but again if folks have an opportunity to, i feel like it's a no brainer, even with all the realities of moving abroad mean.
or do you disagree?
gymbeaux5@reddit
The U.S. now could be Germany in 1933. Anyone who decided in 1941 that they wanted to leave found it much more difficult to do so, especially if they were, you know, non-Aryan, LGBTQ+, or non-Christian.
Raangz@reddit
It seems likely that we are. All ingredients are there. It’s only a matter of will a maxed out or lazy population be able to stand against the most powerful military. In the context of extreme surveillance. Assuming those ingredients combine into their likely cake, what those who are at the kitchen stove want to bake, have been planning in for nearly a hundred years.
I read in a ww1 book recently, hope is fueled by innocence. I think it’s really hope that americans cling onto currently. We’ve never dealt with this sort of wilderness before. We say, but there has always been a house here. Surely there still remains a house, etc.
Unfortunately i have seen extreme circumstances, and know how bad people can get. The only question that remains imo, is can you get out?(i can’t unless my parents finances are brought into play) and if you can’t escape, unfortunately start preparing for violence and betrayal. Living in a red state i do have some weaponry, but not much modern or urban. Shotguns etc. i personally can’t be taken alive though, and am shifting more in terms of planning to make my death count.
I have to say though, keep my anxiety and physical health problems in check feels like it’s shifted from being full time job, to an every waking moment situation. It’s been difficult.
spicytomatilloo@reddit
This. It has been one of the most exhausting experiences for me, personally.
garoldlarold@reddit
I am from the U.S. and lived in a different country for 2 years. I was always referred to as “foreign”. After I had been there for like 2 years and they still called me that I realized that was not what I wanted. They don’t really consider it rude to call you that whereas in the U.S. it would be considered rude. Despite all the stuff going on with trump kicking illegals out at the moment, etc. the U.S. is very different than probably any place else and we are mostly accepting of people from other countries and don’t always call them foreigners. We may refer to their nationality or something but we probably just call them by their name or maybe even call them brother or pal or whatever. It was just kind of annoying always being the foreigner. I realize I put myself in that situation and thankfully too myself out of it. I am back in the U.S. and will only ever leave to travel. And I’m going to proudly travel as an American and not try to be something I’m not
Pale-Candidate8860@reddit
That's okay. At least you tried and found out it wasn't for you. You did good.
FR-DE-ES@reddit
Could be worse :-) In my winter hometown Sevilla (Spain), my landlady is a Scandinavian with a native Sevillano husband. She has been living in this town for nearly 20 years and raising 2 native Sevillano children. The locals still refer to her as "the foreign lady". My German parents in Germany has a friendly next-door neighbor of the last 30 years, a Sicilian man married to a native-German woman from this town. He is still known as "the Sicilian" in this town. It is the same "if you are not born into the tribe, you'll never be one of us" situation in both towns.
hornylittlegrandpa@reddit
This is the biggest thing. It’s hard to get your head around why it’s like to be a foreigner until you are one. No matter how well you integrate, you’ll still be American. And no matter how great your host country is, you are always going to get homesick, and you are going to miss the ease of being in the in-group
manfredfresh@reddit
I agree with most of this but also want to add, for the people who are considering leaving America now, that it is possible, albeit hard and expensive. We left America very much as “running away” after the first Trump election and it was one of the best things I’ve done.
Spiritual_Language82@reddit
How much did you have to save?
sami_camy@reddit
Where did you move to?
manfredfresh@reddit
Copenhagen
navyseal722@reddit
How does Denmark compare to say Germany or netherlands?
sweetballantyne@reddit
I’m seriously considering leaving asap. I’ve looked into other countries for 8 years. I am too poor, old and have a career that isn’t needed anywhere. I am at a point of flee or stay. The only money I’ll get is spousal support and cashing out my 401k and that’s dropping daily. I work from home for a state agency, but would be too nervous to attempt to work out of the country. Any suggestions? I feel like I’m running out of good options.
Cassietgrrl@reddit
All the points you made are completely valid. However, for some US minorities, all those reasons are less important than basic survival.
No, it hasn’t gotten there yet, but the intentions of the Trump administration are clear. They want to remove anyone who is or looks like an undocumented immigrant, and they want to hurt the LGBTQ+ community. A full reading of Project 2025 could lead a reasonable person to conclude that they want to put queer people to death, especially trans people. There are malicious actors in the highest offices, as well as behind the scenes.
laurentpage@reddit
This- every waking moment that I spend checking out what's happening in the news makes me wish I had never existed. It's deeply frustrating how difficult it is to leave- I was homeschooled growing up which has made learning difficult as an adult, so trying to figure out a new language isn't easy. And getting ahold of the funds to leave when America does everything in its power to not pay a decent wage and actually shoots one last tax at you just for leaving is infuriatingly difficult.
Cassietgrrl@reddit
I hear you. I feel compelled to closely follow the news, because I don’t want to miss anything that might affect me. At the same time, I know that seeing all this bad news is taking a toll on my mental health.
I’m hoping that Canada will start accepting trans refugees from the USA very soon. There is definitely pressure to do so from the Canadian people.
laurentpage@reddit
Fingers crossed 🤞 I've been looking into Australia recently, it's by no means perfect but I'm not stranger to things like farm labor and it seems like a work holiday visa might be an option. After all, those jobs always need people (no one really wants to pick fruit and I can't blame them- I'm extremely familiar with picking peaches and the BEES make it miserable) and then hopefully some kind of longer term thing. And yeah... it's so aggravating to keep up with the news, but it feels irresponsible to avoid it. I get the same feeling from people who just "aren't political" like yeah, must be nice to not have people who want to legislate you out of existence so that they can justify atrocities against you. Idk. Shouldn't trust how I feel this late at night, but god damn is it exhausting to just exist in America.
kjoppinhoe@reddit
This exactly. Moving will be difficult of course. But we have to pick our poison. I don’t know if I can wait around to see how far trump/elon will go to hurt people that don’t look like them. It just seems like a ticking time bomb.
mamigourami@reddit
I agree. A lot of posts in this sub lately reek of privilege, some people are fleeing for their lives.
Unlucky_Hour_3630@reddit
I'll probably get downvoted but it needs to be said, as a German history student that kinda thinking is what stopped jewish people from leaving Germany why they still could. Better safe than sorry
Dootsen@reddit
Great post. To set my scene: My hubby is Dutch and we lived in Zwolle for 8 years. Our son is a dual citizen and attended grade school, becoming completely fluent. I did a 2 year inburgering course and passed, the only one of my class to do so on the first try. I was involved at his Montessori school as a lunch moeder, I was in a drawing group and running group.
I love the Netherlands. And yet, I was so homesick. I didn't expect those feelings to be as strong and long lasting as they turned out to be. Sometimes it was little stupid things, like the shape of door handles or lack unsweetened ice tea. Sometimes it was big things, like how hard it is to be really fluent as an adult... and just being a wallflower because I didn't want to make the group cater to me with English.
Just food for thought.
BanthaFodder6@reddit
Lmao, I definitely agree on the unsweet iced tea. I’ll say, Im actually half American and half German (fluency, citizenship, etc). Even though I have been born and raised in the states, I figured with my german background moving to Austria would be no adjustment at all. I was wrong :).
Even having been over to a culturally similar part of German hundreds of time and for a probable cumulative duration of multiple years, actually living permanently over here is a completely different experience.
Fiona-eva@reddit
Is this just US specific? Because as someone who moved Russia—>Canada—> UK each move absolutely helped me financially or personally.
FlashyBite7567@reddit
It’s just gate-keeping, fear mongering post. Nothing more.
FlashyBite7567@reddit
Nice scare tactic post.
Southern_Suspect_752@reddit
Thinking of leaving the US and am just now starting my research. Does anyone know which countries offer permanent residency?
Sea-Geologist4624@reddit
And here’s me who thinks of moving to the US 😔 I know not now.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Me and a bunch of other people are still moving there. The US is a great place and most people you will find to be nice welcoming people. Plenty of job opportunities and career growth opportunities. This sub is skewed towards being against the US by default.
Diligent-Car3263@reddit
I would strongly advise against it if you’re not white and straight, or at least white passing. Especially not with Trump ramping up in executive orders that align with project 2025
Laara2008@reddit
It's hugely dependent on your personal circumstances. Also -- and I'd like to move to Europe myself -- much of the continent is headed right. The Italian Prime Minister is a fascist. Macron is hanging on by his fingernails. AFD is gaining strength in Germany. Labour is in control in the UK but price property in London and you'll see what you're up against. Spain has announced a 100% tax on property purchased by non-EU members.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
the Spain tax is doubled, not a 100% tax, tabloids made the headline seem more extreme than what it already is. but yeah, Europe is and will always be way more conservative and right wing than the US, but a bunch of people have been drinking the tabloids' "happiest country in..." koolaid, they gonna have a rude awakening unless they are filthy rich living in wealthy bubbles lol
Shwooptyshwoop@reddit
Respectfully, I think maybe you're not grasping just how bad things are and how much worse they could and likely will get in the US. We're on the verge of government and economic collapse if things don't change and we do not have democratic politicians working hard enough to fix it. We're not talking about conservative or right wing anymore. We're talking about authoritative dictatorship. Everything is becoming more expensive and jobs are not easy to find. Not to mention there are no immigrants, legal or not, that is safe from deportation right now. If anything, human rights issues aside, moving to the US right now would not be a sound financial decision whatsoever.
Diligent-Car3263@reddit
Oh i’m aware of that, and I would NEVER consider moving to somewhere like Italy, we’d be moving with my sister and her wife if it gets bad enough in the US (and if we can ever afford it). I understand it’s heading right and isn’t some liberal safe-haven, but there are definitely countries in Europe that are safer for women and queer folk. Realistically though, I know I’ll probably never get out of the US.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
I got spit on twice innthe Netherlands, told to go back in my country and similar things by complete strangers. Not even once in the States. All because I am Italian but look arab to northern Europeans. You are delusional if you think Europe is less racist.
Few_Program_2517@reddit
Don't do it; it's horrible here now. Too much stress and angst on a daily basis. Not good for the body, mind or soul. We Americans haven't done our job to protect our Democracy. We had decades to check this monster and put it away permanently with persistent vigilance. Now the billionaires own us all.
Fit_Caterpillar9732@reddit
I would emphasize LANGUAGE SKILLS. That’s more than just a temporarily frustrating barrier. I live in Finland, where plenty of immigrants manage to learn one of the hardest languages in the world in a surprisingly short time because they MUST in order to work in the fields the country actually needs work force (healthcare). I’ve yet to meet an American - or to be honest, a Brit - in Helsinki who has bothered to learn either Finnish or Swedish. While it’s true the tech sector works in English, it will also keep you isolated in a very specific bubble. All fine and dandy when you’re young and single in the nightlife, a lot less so when you’re young and have children attending the local schools and local doctors.
coleisw4ck@reddit
SAME
LadySigyn@reddit
This is why we haven't moved yet. I'm a polyglot, and my family owns a rather notable tech company in Finland, but I don't want to be that American. Getting increasingly frightened though, and I want to be with family. Still doing my best to learn.
Most-Standard2429@reddit
It’s always better to be that American than the one who got jailed for trying to flee too late. You can always come back if things cool down, but if you have the ability to leave, it’s better to be safe than sorry.
komradebae@reddit
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think you should not travel because your language skills aren’t up to par. I tried studying the language before I came here and tbh, I didn’t make much traction on my own. I feel like I’m picking it up a million times faster actually being here and being forced to use/interact with it on a daily basis
Natural-Maximum-411@reddit
Agree. Years of French instruction did not prepare me until I got there and had to use it. Yes of course having some understanding in advance helped but I couldn't easily access anything I learned until immersed.
LadySigyn@reddit
Thank you! I've traveled there extensively but so much shame surrounds my inability to speak my ancestral language at this point. I just want to be with my family.
GTRacer1972@reddit
People in a lot of countries speak English. In my case I would possibly move to Peru. My Spanish is not good. I cannot have conversations in Spanish, but I know enough to get by, and tell them when I do not understand (no entiendo, habla espanol un poco) that sort of thing. My grammar is probably wrong, but I can do the basics. The good thing is countries like those have options for people like Americans like getting a job teaching English. And they have Spanish classes there, and if you're immersed in the culture eventually you will pick it up.
fraeulein_montag@reddit
Yeah I agree. I've spent so much money and time into learning German so I can work in the healthcare sector. I wouldn't have gotten my job without my intermediate German. The language skills just open up doors and makes life much better imo.
But on the other hand, when English is your native language people always switch to English. It's incredibly annoying
IceBergh314@reddit
I was surprised to find out Germany tests for language literacy and has a ranking system for how well you know the language. I saw many jobs requiring a certain level of German literacy. Though, I'm sure working in those places on a day to day basis, they probably speak English as well.
fraeulein_montag@reddit
Oh yeah! I'm currently studying for my B2 German exam. You can take them all over the world actually! It's available also in Switzerland and Austria.
It depends on the sector. International companies will speak English or academic settings will speak both German and English, depending on the number of foreigners present. At least this was my experience in southern Germany.
IceBergh314@reddit
My expertise was in an academic setting so everyone spoke both German and English and most lectures and things were in English. It was probably for the better, but I didn't get to exercise my german speaking skills much.
fraeulein_montag@reddit
I feel that. I did my masters in English and didn't really speak German for 2 years
Fit_Caterpillar9732@reddit
Yep, I can sympathise with the catch-22 situation of a native English speaker! On one hand, you also can’t assume everyone you meet has the patience to function as a free German tutor. Locals often want the communication to be as efficient as possible to move on with their day, so switching to English just makes it simpler often. It requires persistence from the part of the immigrant to insist on local language (but being an immigrant always requires persistence from).
It’s also a bit different here in countries with “smaller” languages and populations than Germany and France - we know we cannot assume people speak Finnish on arrival. I think at least for people my generation, it was considered polite and even a bit “cool” to accommodate immigrants in English, especially in central Helsinki and in certain fields. I’ve only recently understood how annoying it is to always be assumed a foreigner and spoken to in English, so am trying to make the point of at least starting every conversation in the local language here and in other countries where I can. Small steps.. good luck with your studies!
Substantial-Past2308@reddit
On one hand, you also can’t assume everyone you meet has the patience to function as a free German tutor.
That's just such complete bullshit on the part of locals, though - cuz locals also don't have the patience for people who do not speak the language well, are isolated, not fully integrated, etc etc.
Fit_Caterpillar9732@reddit
It’s on you, the newcomer to integrate, NOT the other way round. Why is this so incomprehensible for Americans?
Substantial-Past2308@reddit
Yeah, but then the locals act inconvenienced when you try to speak their language. So how do you exercise your responsibility to integrate? Also, I'm not American.
fraeulein_montag@reddit
Oh yeah for sure. I've lived abroad for years so I understand that locals are not my free tutors. Thanks tough. I am advanced enough in the language where people don't really need to switch. They just hear an accent and immediatly switch and I think a lot of people also like to practice their English.
Fit_Caterpillar9732@reddit
Just to clarify, I didn’t necessarily mean “you” personally with “you” - one of the nuances of the English language I always struggle with :)
I also feel like automatically switching to English is much more typical nowadays in Germany and France than when I was younger. Young people there have better English and are more willing to practice it than their predecessors.
jeffscience@reddit
I do just fine in Espoo without Finnish, but I like the Finnish protocol of never speaking to anyone 😂 My Swedish is coming along but it’s not useful for anything except the Yki test.
ChemistHorror@reddit
100% language skills. Even if the learning part is difficult and slow going people generally appreciate just a willingness to try and learn. Once you start speaking the language native to the country you’re living in the country really stays to open up to you and becomes a lot more enjoyable and easy to navigate. I really think for a lot of people language is overlooked and to a degree there is some ignorance that people will just speak English with them.
SomeAd8993@reddit
slow going people 😅
Hot-Cash-6784@reddit
i wanna move with my mother because she has a pretty fat chance of being deported by the trump administration because she isn't a green card holder. if that's not a serious issue, then idk what is.
Slow-Yogurtcloset292@reddit
1,3,5...depends on your situation. Because for some people in usa, it is already hostile and rejecting. Many of us find that we get jobs easier when our skin color is not the problem as it is here in usa. This goes for all 3 of those items. For some of us most problems come from skin color.
HossAcross@reddit (OP)
It really comes down to what type of work and industry someone is seeking and where. If someone is working in professional roles and looking to Europe (a region many on reddit subs mention when planning an "escape") I would say most POC are worse off outside of the U.S. w/out having well above average education, experience, network, and language skills and that's before considering legal status. As a black American I've worked in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, UK, Spain, and Germany and not only is skin color absolutely a factor in treatment in these places but there is no acknowledgment or way to seek redress for discrimination. Even bigger will be the extreme career limits due to not being a local and the overall more limited career opportunity. I'm speaking from both personal experience and from research.
DremFaks@reddit
As a gay man, atheist, and liberal living in the South USA, I am already looked at as different. I am a least being called names and labeled as something derogatory. It’s super easy to say not to use moving to another country an escape hatch when you aren’t being attacked daily. On top of the rise in hate crimes towards our community, we have legislation trying to undo our marriages, take our kids away, and deny us basic human rights. I’ll take having to learn a new language, being more safe from gun violence, waiting a little longer for free healthcare, not be poisoned by my food, over the rubbish happening here.
Xephrey@reddit
In Sweden, you usually get better treatment if you use English and sound native. My biggest issue which I didn’t foresee with my moving here in 2010 is the difference in family values. It’s enough for a child to make a claim that sounds incriminating to a school councillor to have said child forcibly and permanently relocated to a foster family WITHOUT RECOURSE. There are thousands of these cases.
BaddieCrew3761@reddit
This is shocking! Children can say all kinds of things. to remove them from their home is just crazy.
Xephrey@reddit
There is a more than ample need for reforms pertaining to how social services conduct their work and how they speak with children: especially neurodivergent children. My oldest is autistic and can sometimes ‘recall’ new, incorrect details while describing past events. Their strong feelings affect how the event is recalled to the point where fundamental elements of the event and its aftermath are created or exaggerated. This can be the crucial different between actionable proof to initiate an investigation or understanding that feelings play tricks on us sometimes: even more so for some of us who have unique challenges relating to how we interpret our impressions, emotions, and social cues.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
I want to leave the US to get my masters degree. Now that federal aid has been paused by Trump, I can no longer afford to do it in the states without taking out predatory private loans. And it’s much MUCH cheaper in France to get one than in the US anyway. I’d say that’s reason enough.
Critical_Cut_6016@reddit
Yeah that's a solid reason.
I think he's talking mainly about choice expats with greener grass syndrome.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
Ah gotcha. I hate to admit it but I used to have greener grass syndrome myself lol.
But I’m a Black man, no grass is greener anywhere for me. But at least there are trade offs I’m willing to take to live a comfortable and safe life elsewhere.
Critical_Cut_6016@reddit
This guy gets it. It's all about trade offs.
And only you can answer if they are worth it for you.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
Yup! I’m a simple guy. I don’t need a massive luxury apartment nor do I plan to get married and have kids. I’m content renting a studio or something and just playing video games or making music lol
Critical_Cut_6016@reddit
For your masters it's worth it. You can always leave after if you don't like.
However you are going to need to know some french.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
I’m currently A2 French but I plan to take a language course in France! Will be B2 before the Masters
Languagepro99@reddit
Im considering France , Spain or Japan . I speak all 3 and getting better everyday so after college is over im gone .
KingOfConstipation@reddit
I feel you dude! I still have to get a job and save up after I graduate but I'm gone after I get the funds lol. I love France so I've been eyeing it the most
Languagepro99@reddit
Use italki for language teachers 👨🏫
LanguageGnome@reddit
italki +1
erin10785@reddit
I am a dual citizen (France/US) and I did my masters degree at Sciences Po in Paris. Be ready for a vastly different type of education system as well, it is not at all what you are used to in the states. I grew up in the states and did my BA here before moving to do my masters in France. It is absolutely much cheaper to do your graduate degree over there, but remember if you are living in Paris, the cost of living is still going to be really high. Yes I paid less for the degree, but just to live in Paris it will be quite pricey and it took me a long time to get a part time job even though I sent out many CVs. The best way to learn French is really by living there, surround yourself with French people, read and integrate yourself as much as possible. It’s easy to try to surround yourself with groups that speak English but stay as far away from that as possible, it is only going to hinder your progress in French. Also another thing to take into account is renting - you will need someone to co-sign for you… and it cannot be someone back in the states.. needs to be someone that has a French contract. I do hope you succeed and it will be tough, but push through and you can have a lovely life in France. I moved back to the states 10 yrs after getting my masters degree because I thought the grass was greener…. Turns out yes I make more money, but only 3 weeks PTO, health care is expensive even with good insurance etc.. I am currently looking at moving back to Europe because my QoL was SO much better. Good luck 💪🏻
KingOfConstipation@reddit
Thank you for the tips!
I'm actually trying to avoid Paris lol I'm more interested in Toulouse, Bordeaux, Montpellier, Lyon etc. There's definitely more to France than Paris and I wish more Americans understood this lol.
And while I am going to work on my French in the states, I still plan to take an intensive French course out there and immerse myself in the country.
And I've heard it's tough for foreigners to rent apartments so I'll have to get lucky lol
Critical_Cut_6016@reddit
Yeah solid. Best way to learn is practicing too so if nothing else this move will do wonders for your french.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
Exactly! Immersion is key and there no better place for that than in the country lol
B3stThereEverWas@reddit
As a brown guy I thought the grass was greener in Europe (coming from Aus).
It wasn’t. Like at all
Went back to Aus for a bit, then the US. I’ll die on this hill the best place for a POC is America.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
I say this with uttermost respect. But hell no lol. I can’t believe you would actually say the US is better for POC, considering how we’ve been treated here? The type of racism in the US is literally life threatening. And with Trump back in power, it’s going to get worse for us here. Not simply because of Trump’s erasure of our civil rights. But with the amount of right wing gun nut militias who will feel emboldened to attack Black People. Not to mention the amount of gun violence here that disproportionately hurts POC.
I’m not saying Europe is some paradise. But I’d take being spat at or talked down to by the French over having to constantly look over my shoulder for the KKK every time I step outside to go anywhere. This is the reality my family down South have to deal with.
Absentrando@reddit
I’ve experienced far more racism in Europe than I have in the US. He’s 100% correct
90sefdhd@reddit
But was it life-threatening? From what I’m reading, that is the difference. Fewer guns has to help
Absentrando@reddit
I haven’t experienced life threatening racism in the US or Europe. It’s usually people treating me like I’m suspicious and about to steal something or start trouble instead of people wanting to cause trouble with me if that makes sense. That happens a lot more to me in Europe than in the US.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
Are you Middle Eastern/Indian by any chance? Because that makes a huge difference. Arabs and Indians are often treated better in the US, at least from what I’ve seen, than in Europe. For instance, North Africans are HATED in France. But Black people from America tend to be treated better than any of the aforementioned groups, as long you’re not Muslim.
It’s definitely relative for sure
Absentrando@reddit
I’m black. I think you are right that Arabs especially have it worse in Europe now. Anytime a region gets a large influx of immigrants of an ethnicity, racism tends to rise for the group
komradebae@reddit
As a black person, I’m gonna get followed in the store in Europe, and I’m gonna get followed in the store in the US. In Europe, when they follow me around and call the cops, it’s humiliating, but I am not afraid for my life.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
Exactly!! I swear they don’t get it lol
90sefdhd@reddit
That sounds really terrible :-/ I only asked because I think the other poster above is from Chicago as he linked to a page about shootings and gun deaths in that city
Absentrando@reddit
There will always be shitty people. Thankfully most people in the US or Europe don’t behave that way. His experience may be different but that’s been mine
komradebae@reddit
I’m not sure if the term POC is useful here. Your experiences in different parts of the world - even different parts of Europe/North America etc will vary depending on your ethnicity.
For example, in my observation, I don’t think the country I’m in is the best place for brown people. It’s usually not actively violent towards them, but it’s kind of hostile/dismissive. In the US, there is a pretty established, visible and wealthy class of Desi/south Asian folks who’ve been in the country for generations now, so there’s a lot more community and acceptance. Same obviously in the UK.
As a black person, continental Europe has been fine for me. Realistically, in the US, I was at the bottom of the social ladder. Here, you’re somewhere in the middle (as long as you’re not Muslim). Though in the US you definitely have visibility, community and solidarity that you won’t really in Europe since black people are such a small fraction of the population here. But I’m also a black westerner, so my experience might be totally different than that of someone who is African.
My ex was half East Asian, half European and actively hated living in Europe. They felt a lot more comfortable in the US. Though I think they also struggled with the fact that they were visibly different and treated differently, but also not an immigrant. That doesn’t really happen as much in the US from my understanding (I am not biracial, so I can’t speak to that experience directly).
Anyways, the point is, there’s no “best” place for “POC” — the answer is, like most things, “maybe, it depends.”
KingOfConstipation@reddit
I feel you on this! When I went to France a few years ago on a study abroad trip, I felt safe there. And the French were very curious about me being American, asking having I been to NYC or LA. When I tell them I’m from LA, it’s like their eyes glow with wonder lol.
Also they really REALLY hate North Africans.
Racism is so weird in Europe.
Unusual_Sherbert_809@reddit
What I think is funny is that you're both right and wrong.
Europe is pretty large. One place can be awful while another can be wonderful for a POC. Your experience in Portugal is likely to be wildly different than your experience in Austria.
Same in the USA. Depending on where you live you can either have a perfectly normal experience where you're just part of the crowd, or be subjected to the most blatant racism (and potential for violence) you can think of.
The difference between the two places is that in Austria folks aren't usually packing. 🤷🏻♂️
Pale-Candidate8860@reddit
I've heard more racist comments in Canada than anywhere in the U.S. And I lived in a former slave state at one point. America truly is amazing for racial minorities versus other places. I was white in a town with 70% Hispanic population growing up. I know what discrimination feels and looks like.
erin10785@reddit
I lived for a long time in Europe and the US and I have to agree with you. Europe is so much worse. People that haven’t actually lived in Europe don’t understand. I am not a POC, but have friends that are and it was so much worse in Europe.
CongruentDesigner@reddit
Racism?
B3stThereEverWas@reddit
I saw two racist incidents, one of which was directed at me and one another African guy. But TBH I’ve also seen that in Aus, although it’s incredibly rare. Never saw it the US.
Something that was noticeable was more xenophobia. Like I could tell the vibe when I’d walk in somewhere or approach a group, and then when I perked up with my bright aussie accent - complete vibe change. Everyone was keen and willing to help. THAT was different
Europeans, particularly Germans/Nordics are just engrossed in their social circles and culture that they find anything outside of that difficult to relate to. I mean even white Aussies can find Germans and Nordics hard to relate to, and vice versa.
TheNippleViolator@reddit
Dude thank you lol. Europeans love to demonize the US for racism when in fact Europe is much worse.
FR-DE-ES@reddit
I'm Ex-Californian, 10th year resident of France (long-term Paris resident, had lived in 5 regions of France). A few heads-up for you:
LANGUAGE -- you'd need B2 French to engage in a substantive conversation and will still struggle interfacing with government entities/businesses in daily life. If jobs you want is in the business/corporate world, you'd need C1-C2 French plus "business French". What makes France a very language-challenging country for foreigners is the fact that, unlike other cultures where natives are glad to see foreigners making an effort to speak their language, the French expect foreigners living there to speak grammatically-correct French with good pronunciation. Get your C1 certificate before applying for jobs.
JOB PROSPECT -- It is famously difficult for new grads in France to find a permanent job. My native-French friend (white) got a PhD in public accounting (in-demand field) from France's top biz school and could not find a job for 1.5 year until her brother helped her get a job in the gov agency where he is a director. My Paris landlord's native-French daughter (3rd generation Algerian) has 2 solid master's degrees from 2 prestigious schools (a good uni in France & University of London), both are in fields related to intellectual property management. For the first 3 years out of school, she worked total of 3-4 months PER YEAR on short-term contract, finally landed a permanent job in year 4 with the help of her friend. This is pretty normal in France. [NOTE: not having a "permanent" job = not able to rent an apartment, unless you are rich foreigner who can put a year's rent in escrow]
Two American friends failed to find job in France after getting master's degree in France -- a MBA from prestigious INSEAD (a white male), a MA in strategic marketing from American University in Paris (Asian-American female). When they returned to America, they found themselves out-competed by applicants from elite American universities/programs.
In America, one does not need to reveal ethnicity & age on resume. In France, you need photo/date of birth/age on your resume, or else HR could deem it incomplete. It is well-known that job applicants with names that do not sound French are at a disadvantage. Do some research about this.
Good luck to you!
KingOfConstipation@reddit
My French is currently at a mid A2. I plan to spend time doing French language course in France to get to a B2 before I do a masters.
My BA is in digital media so I’m trying to get into a field within digital media (which is pretty broad). If the job prospects for new grads issue is the norm, then there’s no point in worrying about it. That’s not stopping me lol
Like I said in my original comment, I can no longer do a masters degree in the states due to federal aid being paused. So the whole competition from prestigious American universities don’t mean jack shit to me since I’m not returning.
Even if something happens and I do end up returning to the States, it wouldn’t even matter since there would be no way I could get more schooling here.
I’m actually aware of the whole CV image thing. It’s weird to me, but whatever. I’ll roll with it.
Are currently still in France?
Substantial-Past2308@reddit
France is a surprisingly friendly country, specially to foreigners who make an honest effort to learn the language and adopt some (maybe all) of the local customs. I think you'll be fine there.
KingOfConstipation@reddit
That is great to hear! While I don't expect France to be a perfect country (does one even exist? Lol) but I would easily trade the convenience of the US for a slower pace of life and better social services in France
KingOfConstipation@reddit
That’s good to hear!
FR-DE-ES@reddit
Yes, France is my permanent home.
circle22woman@reddit
This is great info!
I had no idea a permanent role was that challenging, even for people with high quality backgrounds in high demand fields.
proof_required@reddit
And then it will pay very much close to minimum wage. That's what I made in Spain after finishing a 5 years course in Mathematics.
Life-Unit-4118@reddit
Fuck. That sucks. I wish it wasn’t true.
Constant-Frosting574@reddit
FWIW, financial aid and grants (or any federal loans and grants that are given to individuals) are exempt from the federal aid pause.
HomeLifter@reddit
I am seriously considering a move overseas, but I picked a place I actually want to be
nadmaximus@reddit
I'm ten years into my life abroad. It was wonderful to escape from U.S. problems. I have never hustled in a capitalist grind. I don't love international business, or any business at all. Professional opportunities and money are the same or better. My quality of life is vastly improved, and pleasantly disconnected from how much money I make.
If you have the right to reside and work already handled, then all that grass really is quite green, especially if you don't want to hustle and pursue wealth, but instead just want to live your life for every day, enjoying those days as they come.
Of course that only covers some people. If you want out and you think you can change yourself to be the sort of person suitable for things like DAFT, you should pay attention to the fact that you won't like it all and you'll be trading one set of depressing circumstances for another.
sami_camy@reddit
Same. I would so much rather be disconnected from money and just live a more simple life. Been considering moving abroad for a while. Where are you now? And did you move with family or by yourself?
nadmaximus@reddit
France, me and my wife, three dogs and two cats.
These_Talk2598@reddit
Hey, we're about to do the same move but with our 1 year old babygirl and five cats! How did it go for you? Did you use a pet relocation service?
crazyanne@reddit
Can I ask where you live now and what career you have?
nadmaximus@reddit
France. I've had a career in IT, but not corporate, I spent decades working at a university. Here in rural France I'm working as a backend developer. Not all trades/professions are as easily portable as IT. My spouse is an EU citizen (thus my lack of visa concerns).
BunnyEarsPond@reddit
That’s really encouraging to hear honestly. We’re finally starting to prepare for a move to France (my spouse has French citizenship, we’re starting to navigate getting paperwork for me) and honestly healthcare and US work culture are huge reasons why we’re looking forward to it, even as we’re still learning the language. Paying for healthcare and working nonstop for so little is exhausting, we have time for nothing else. I’m training for a new field I can at least do remotely and I hope will give me some skills there, but we can’t do it here anymore.
pyrite_philter@reddit
Can I DM you? I would like to ask you a few questions/get advice.
nadmaximus@reddit
Certainly.
pyrite_philter@reddit
For some reason it says that I can't message you. I'm not sure why. I know that I have like 2 karma, but I have had this account for 8 years.
Swiss_Robear@reddit
Same here, but instead, I spent over 20 years hustling in the US so that I can now enjoy all of the benefits you mentioned above. I am doing my own thing now at a life-pace while traveling, experiencing new cultures, and enjoying a vastly superior QoL.
What I would recommend to anyone considering a move abroad, if they can make it happen (personally or professionally) is to go when you are young for school/university, or after you've established yourself professionally and are ready (and able) to take a step back from the grind knowing opportunities and for the most part money will be less. Remember tho YMMV.
gymbeaux5@reddit
My thing is, you can’t hustle your whole life in the U.S. and still die in debt. It’s a gamble. There is no direct correlation to effort and reward.
On the other hand, you could become a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer and make bank, only to lose it all to a cancer diagnosis not covered by insurance.
water5785@reddit
what profession are you in?
temmoku@reddit
Hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah, there were some big advantages to moving when older, especially in terms of not having to worry about the costs of the move itself and being near the top of my career arc so the fact that the new job didn't provide much advancement opportunity wasn't as big a deal (didn't hurt that the old job had dead-ended, anyway).
Modullah@reddit
That’s what I’m planning to do, we are still in our wealth generating phase. Once we feel comfortable enough financially then we Might make the jump over the pond.
Swiss_Robear@reddit
Exactly - Way to be pragmatic about it. 👍🏻
Modullah@reddit
Thank you, I try to be. 🙂👍
Unusual_Sherbert_809@reddit
Agreed. Quality of life does matter as well, and our quality of life increased quite a bit when we moved out of the USA.
Migrating to another country is never going to be easy (nor cheap). But if you can afford to do it and plan it well, it can be more than worth it.
ratbastard_lives@reddit
If I may ask, how did you get the right to reside handled?
Pin_ellas@reddit
Great counterpoint. Thank you
up2dateGAAP@reddit
I am leaving because the government is disappearing people
RestartNick@reddit
As someone who has moved from Canada to Australia but have also spent time in the UK and other European countries. One thing to take into consideration is even if you are a white American and moving to a majority "White" country, you will still be treated differently by locals.
DeltadWin@reddit
If Genocide comes to US, minorities especially black people will be targeted. Thinking about those who waited too long with the Nazi’s in power. We have Nazis in addition power now!
So, escaping US is a reasonable option for high target vulnerable people!
GTRacer1972@reddit
I'm married to a Peruvian dual-national, who's mother has two houses and works as a doctor in Peru. If it hits the fan in a bad way it's nice to know we have options. Peru is not the ideal place to move to, but as fucked up as their government is, it looks nothing like the one Trump is creating. And like how long should people wait? Before or after Republicans open death camps?
GeorgeTheWarcrafter@reddit
From a national interest perspective, a country would ideally want immigrants who are committed to integrating and contributing rather than just escaping a temporary political climate. If you’re only looking for a short-term escape and have no real loyalty to your new country, you may not be a valuable addition.
phonyToughCrayBrave@reddit
Europe is clearly in decline. They are unable to integrated immigrants and have too low birth rates. The EU system means you have twenty different opinions for everything. Their share of the pie continues to be eaten by USA/China/India.
Wide_Pop_6794@reddit
With the political climate in Canada, I am genuinely considering moving to a different country to avoid the possibility of a war. I'm not dead set on it, my first option is to move further up North. But in case that's not an option... Just learning everything I can from this sub.
Spectolux@reddit
Have you considered expat social support communities? How about tax incentives? Digital nomad? Countries that encourage investment, property acquisition, living with qualified funds from pensions, entitlements often untaxed, or those looking to take advantage of permanent residency programs welcoming you to help diversify and boost their economy and country? The most important incentive I’ve considered is leaving a broken, subpar healthcare and insurance system in the US for sensible and respectful, inexpensive universal healthcare systems elsewhere. Catastrophic illness and bankruptcy is common in the US. Violence and political unrest is very real and also threatening in the US. The biggest barriers outside of the US I’ve confronted are government red tape, infrastructure, climate and catastrophic weather events. Those can be mitigated if you’re motivated and adventurous.
Dry_Effect7571@reddit
How about healthcare in The Netherlands? Cost and time difference to travel? Taxation - PAYE or income tax and capital gains tax - differences. General level of education of the overage person - do people get their news from SM platforms or more trust sources? Interested to hear these please
ArbaAndDakarba@reddit
I'd add that professional salaries abroad are generally lower - by as much as half or so. This will have a huge impact on your ability to save for retirement, which is its own topic.
GoSeigen@reddit
Unless you want to retire in the US, you don't need to save nearly as much in other places if you have a pension or equivalent.
proof_required@reddit
What do you mean? You don't need to save? German pensions are sub 2K and rent would be more than half of it since you can't afford to buy housing. European pension plans are equivalent to American social security.
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
The cost of living is dramatically lower outside the US, unless perhaps you're trying to live like an American with a McMansion. So you won't need as much money to retire on as long as you don't return to the US.
proof_required@reddit
Are you telling me it's more expensive to live in Alabama or Nebraska than Paris or London?
Germany has old age poverty since lot of older people can't afford much due to low pension. I even watched a documentary about how low earning Germans moved to Thailand to survive on their low pension.
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-more-than-3-million-pensioners-at-risk-of-poverty/a-70799712
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
The kind of Americans who'd move overseas do not want to live in conservative shitholes like Alabama or Nebraska. They'd sooner live in a small city in France or Germany, where the cost of living is still much lower than AL or NE, especially when you look at healthcare costs which become significant as you get older.
proof_required@reddit
And? How is that relevant to the discussion if locals need to save money or not. The point you were trying to make was Europeans don't need to save money just because pension covers their costs. I'm telling you that's not the case! Even if we go by your assumption that these costs are dramatically lower, those pensions aren't enough. You need to save money on top of pension. Otherwise you are screwed.
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
I never wrote any such thing. Citation needed.
I wrote that you don't need an American salary to have a decent retirement in other countries. Obviously, people in those countries are able to retire on the salaries they make there.
You're obviously not an American if you believe this. There's a reason senior citizens have to buy extra health insurance in the US: Medicare doesn't cover that much.
proof_required@reddit
Quoting your own comment that I had first replied to. I'm countering your argument that pension is enough!
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
Go back and read it: "you don't need to save nearly as much". That doesn't equal zero.
ericblair21@reddit
As somebody who's lived overseas, you can't take the average housing prices for the area if you're not a local. For example, many countries in Europe have a real housing crisis, and you won't be able to compete with locals for the "normal" rentals as you're much more of a risk as far as the landlords go and you don't know your way around the markets. You'd likely be in a separate, more expense expat market.
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
Someone who lives a long time in a foreign country before they retire is going to know their way around the markets in that country. We're not talking about Americans who move abroad just to retire here.
There's no "expensive expat market" in western European countries, except maybe Lisbon. You're thinking of Mexico, Costa Rica, etc. Someone who works for years in France and retires there will know perfectly well where to live during retirement.
ericblair21@reddit
Try to get a "normal" priced flat in most of Germany or Netherlands.
circle22woman@reddit
The other thing to keep in mind is other countries mandatory basic pension plan for retirement can be much less than what you'd get in the US.
Social security in the US is quite high compared to other countries (of course because you pay more in). To give an example, given the same wage, SS will pay almost double what CPP will pay in Canada.
So assume you'll need to save above and beyond the basic national pension whether a company pension (common in Europe) or retirement savings accounts or just plain investment accounts.
powderchair@reddit
CPP payment in Canada is based on how many years you worked and contributed to the program. A new comer will not qualify.
circle22woman@reddit
Presumably people contribute after they immigrate? I don't know too many immigrants who don't work at all.
falseinsight@reddit
And really, REALLY research the financial implications of living abroad. For example your opportunities to invest (outside of a pension) are EXTREMELY limited, you need to report all the holdings of all foreign accounts and file US taxes every year (even though you will most likely also be taxed as a resident of the country where you live), etc. you may also - even if you pay taxes - be ineligible for some welfare benefits unless you're a citizen. It is a lot of red tape to navigate.
brass427427@reddit
I used the company's retirement plans. Worked great.
McScuse-Me@reddit
A decade as an MBA student?
oletimet63@reddit
My wife has followed me around for the last 24 years here in USA. Her family is back in England. She would like to spend more time with them and visit places that we’ve never been to in UK and Europe. So what the heck, why not. We are close to retirement, I have great pension and with SS we will be just fine.
Dagr8reset@reddit
Someone told me you shouldn't move abroad unless you can replicate your income overseas or be close to it and I agree
KW_ExpatEgg@reddit
Replicate your spending power, not your income.
yungScooter30@reddit
Can someone elaborate on this? How is it worse to be a more fast-pace worker among other workers? My experience assumes that people would appreciate receiving email responses immediately, businesses opening on time, etc. Is this not the case or are those poor examples?
KW_ExpatEgg@reddit
Hypothetically, in places which value “face” in particular, you’d be embarrassing your co-worker or boss by your rush.
You’d also be showing a lack of understanding of the culture of the business/ country.
gymbeaux5@reddit
I think it’s short-sighed to discount “escaping the U.S.” as a valid reason to move abroad. People flee their home countries all the time due to political unrest and persecution. Think about the people who left Germany in 1933 rather than 1940. They probably got a lot of ridicule a la “it won’t be that bad.” Time will tell, but I see best case for the U.S. being “usual get-nothing-done Democrats.”
DruidWonder@reddit
Of the Americans I am in contact with right now who want to flee because of the next four years, ALL are monolingual, don't have a profession that is transferable to another country, don't have a lot of money, have no real living-abroad experience, and don't seem to understand that other countries aren't revolving doors. They have their own national identities, cultures, values, and institutions that they want to preserve.
Every time there's an election people talk about fleeing and I'm so tired of it. The ignorance is astounding.
Alli_Baster@reddit
I may try to leave the U.S. because of what is written in Project 2025. The restoration of the Christian family unit, which aims at the single parent, stating that we are one of the main problems with N. America. It hasn't come to fruition as of yet, but most of President Trump's to-do list has been checked off in less than one week. I voted for him knowing that this may become a reality. I would not marry a man to keep my children, nor would I allow the president to choose his race. IDK if it's true, but the project allegedly states the desire to ban mixed-race marriages. I will not bow down to a diabolical dystopia. It's disturbing and would be hypocritical given the fact that Marla was a SINGLE mother after She and President Trump divorced. Sweet li'l Tiffany was merely 6 years old. My children's father has late onset schizophrenia and refuses to seek treatment, and in NY state, a family member can not have them committed. He became dangerous and abusive. I had no choice but to leave him. PROJ.2025 is also allegedly in opposition of no fault divorce, cuts to veteran assistance, housing, SSDI, SSI, if I lose my source of income as a disabled vet, I'd rather further my education, in a country that won't take my children and give me the freedom to marry the man of my choosing. The food, water, containers, daily products, and countless other things keep us sick. Once we're in another country, I may not suffer so badly from what ails me.
ImQuestionable@reddit
Hold up—did I misread this? You voted for exactly this and immediately got the results you knowingly requested, but now you want to bail so you don’t “suffer” through it while leaving the rest of us to live with it??
Please describe to me exactly which sufferings of Project 2025 you desired to impose only on the human beings around you while you remained safe and unaffected. You were willing to sentence the rest of us to it but not yourself?
Alli_Baster@reddit
I don't need to explain anything to anyone. At least the illegal criminals are gone. Get a clue ppl. It was the lesser of 2 evils. Killing full term babies or this. It's called sacrifice for the greater good. If you want to suffer, by all means, help yourselves. I'm a vet with passports. Adios amigos.
lone_star13@reddit
I hope things only get worse for you from here :)
CatHairAndChaos@reddit
The hypocrisy of "get a clue" is hilarious. You have no excuse for being so misinformed, especially after his first term. You choose to believe transparently baseless deranged rhetoric because you want different people to suffer.
"It's called sacrifice! ...Except for me, I'm bailing instead." Wow. But, you have absolutely zero chance of moving to a country that isn't even worse. Your passport isn't a magical "I can live wherever I want" card. I suggest you start “getting a clue”.
You're stuck here with what you voted for. Unless you emigrate illegally, but of course, then you'd be one of those criminals you hate.
This is what you wanted. You did this to yourself, and your family. Time to deal with it.
Wasabi_95@reddit
Ngl it would be better if all of you just left.
Complex_Character_32@reddit
No one wants your stinky arse in our countries. Stay in the shit bed you made.
inspired_fire@reddit
Just admit that you allowed yourself to be completely brainwashed into believing people are killing full-term babies and all immigrants are criminals to the point where you chose to vote against the interests of you and your family and for Project 2025, and now you’re trying to cut and run instead of standing by your ill-informed decision.
You voted for Project 2025. You voted for this. Own it.
CallieGirlOG@reddit
No other country needs, or wants a trump loving immigrant from the US, except maybe Russia. You need to stay and fix the disaster you helped create. I'm happy to see you suffer the consequences of what you voted to happen to others, and may you continue to reap what you sowed.
LoonyWorld@reddit
"I voted for him knowing that this may become a reality."
Gee, I wonder why. 😒
"IDK if it's true, but the project allegedly states the desire to ban mixed-race marriages. I will not bow down to a diabolical dystopia. It's disturbing and would be hypocritical given the fact that Marla was a SINGLE mother after She and President Trump divorced."
That's not the only thing hypocritical, sweetheart.
Nah, you're staying here and reaping what you sow like you deserve. It's called taking responsibility for your actions.
Alli_Baster@reddit
Judge yourself.
ShatteredAutumn@reddit
Accept the consequences of your actions.
Alli_Baster@reddit
Get a life fruitcake
Hisahide-Matsunaga@reddit
You ordered it, now eat it. You damn coward.
PinkThunder138@reddit
Well. Don't you feel fucking stupid now?
From your description, you are, in many ways, the target of his policies, so how about you explain to us, exactly, why you thought he was so great and worth voting for. What, exactly, were you thinking?
Listen, I'm sorry, I know that's my first line here sounded harsh, but you are a person, deserving of respect. So, I just want you to know that I hope you get everything you voted for. I hope grocery prices come down. I really do. And I hope that every single thing he does, every EO he signs, every single thing you voted for, has the absolute maximum impact on your life.
xemmyQ@reddit
based on other comments, it appears to be racism and not letting other women enjoy the benefits she has (as a NY resident) of owning their own bodies
AfterSevenYears@reddit
WTF is wrong with you? You helped bring this down in your country, and now you want to escape what you voted for? You should stay in the U.S. and face the consequences of your own actions.
tical_@reddit
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read
Why would you vote against your own interest? What part did you like if you were willing to throw away everything you listed?
seatbe1t@reddit
Reap what you sow, coward.
Ickysquicky@reddit
Oh, baby boo. You voted for this. You and the rest of your idiotic party were told right to your faces that Trump would be a fascist dictator, and you decided to vote for him because you're all a collective hateful, seething mass of wasted space. So no, you probably won't be leaving. Suffer while knowing that you played a part in condemning innocent people in the U.S. You get what you fucking voted for😘
lone_star13@reddit
you don't deserve to leave, lie in the bed you made
FrozenFlames04@reddit
Oh so you wanted P2025, right? Then what's the problem? Clearly you thought USA would be better under Trump. Why are you leaving then?
Science_Matters_100@reddit
You VOTED FOR THAT, and now you object? Get treatment, get clean, whatever you are on is messed up
friedmaple_leaves@reddit
Okay but what if you have all that? And the money to leave, what is the point of staying?
WatersEdge50@reddit
This should be required reading for anyone who wants to leave the US simply to escape Trump.
ScorpioRizzing@reddit
I don't know why people presume wanting to leave to get away from Trump means that they are ignorant of the challenges of moving to another country.
This is not your typical douchebag Republican in office, and it clearly will not be like last time.
I'm considering it because I expect that the place I call home is going to be targeted and made into an example, along with all the other weird little enclaves where people live their funky little lives without bothering anyone else.
I will be expected to fit in no matter where I am, so this consideration is a non-factor. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have to fit in with the people who are not ramping up to make work camps.
I'm expecting to have to close my business if I stay here, and to have to join at least a group buying club and possibly find a group living situation to make ends meet. As someone who works better on their own, and prefers a quiet and solitary living situation, I would much rather hustle and grind into the night then put up with a bunch of inane conversation, the TV and two radios blaring, and the smell of someone's bad cooking every night.
As someone who is currently fighting a sickness that is making me sick for a month while others only got a cold, it is worth it to me to make many sacrifices to go to a country that values public health.
And it's not like a single person in my maggot family cares what happens to me anyway, so not being able to see them again is no great loss. If I get somewhere safe, at least I might have a chance to offer a lifeline to the people who do care about me.
I will miss my home, and the things I love about my country, but the reality of the situation is that those things are already dead and gone. They're just taking a little while to notice.
InternetEthnographer@reddit
I’m in a similar boat, albeit, my family is fairly left-leaning. Trump is the tipping point for my fiancé and I. It certainly doesn’t help that many jobs in both of our fields (archaeology and paleontology/geology) rely on federal funding and grants. Hell, even jobs that aren’t federal in archaeology still use federal funding because by law, any project on federal land or that uses federal funds must have archaeological survey and work done before the project. Not to mention, they’re probably gonna try to gut legislation that ensures I have a job anyways. So needless to say, we’re screwed.
I spent a summer in Germany working with a German company, so I’m somewhat familiar with work over there. It doesn’t pay nearly as well as in the US (and I don’t get that sweet sweet per diem pay), but I can make enough to live and I don’t have to worry about car insurance or health insurance. Especially since I’m about to age out of my parents’ insurance and I have a handful of chronic health issues that I have no clue how I’m going to afford to pay for. Like you said, it’ll be nice to be in a country that actually cares about public health. I also get really sick from “colds” and the extra sick days and paid time off helps too.
I don’t know if we’ll just go straight into grad school or work first or what, but after this next year we’re going to try to leave. Both of our careers are going to be heavily impacted by Trump and it’s just not worth staying anymore. Luckily my fiancé is eligible for Italian citizenship by descent, so we’re crossing out fingers that will work out.
ScorpioRizzing@reddit
I hope it works out for you.
I have a chosen family that wants me to stay, and I happen to have an abusive parent who is eligible for citizenship in another country (and is more loyal to themselves than any political movement, so I expect them to try and move there if things truly hit the fan), but that would probably involve actually talking with them to do a family reunion immigration thing (hard pass), and that country specifically is not looking for my skills anyway.
But, healthcare really is the main issue for me, and I am far more politically undesirable than the other people in my chosen family are, so I don't think they appreciate the personal danger I could be in. I have some theoretically manageable health conditions, but I've been going without insurance and checkups lately. I'm worried that they will remove the ban on denying people with pre-existing conditions, and I will have to deal with the consequences of untreated treatable illnesses getting worse and worse over time until I am essentially disabled. I also have to try to get to another country before my health concerns reach a tipping point because they could refuse me.
I'm compiling a list of requirements for every single country I might be eligible for and probably like, and making sure all of those requirements are met. Fortunately, there's a lot of overlap and it's just an issue of meeting the most stringent standard for each thing out of all the countries. Then, I'm just going to apply everywhere and go where they accept me. Really hoping I can get into an EU country so I can move around a little if the first country isn't a great fit.
My main issue is that I was convinced Harris was going to win based on rally attendance, so I didn't get started earlier. At this point, it's going to take me 6 months to a year to get everything together, and with this crazy pace of antagonistic behavior and the bird flu situation? I don't know if any of these countries will still be accepting Americans in 6 months to a year. I don't even know if my home will hold its value, and it's my main source of cash for this.
The other option is to liquidate first, then go to a cheap country that allows Americans to stay for a while like Albania, and try to apply for visas from there, but if it turns out that I don't have to leave, I'm actually putting myself in a way worse financial position.
It's hard to know. I want to be ready to leave and only go if it's absolutely necessary, but there is always the risk that I will wait too long.
powderchair@reddit
You think trump is going to round you up and stick you in a work camp? My goodness. 🤪🤪 get help
Diligent-Car3263@reddit
I mean, he’s a fucking dictator. My husband and I are desperately trying to find some way to get out of here before we’re not allowed to leave. I can’t have children here, and with this federal funding freeze my job is about to be gone. Obviously every country has issues, but America is en route to Nazi Germany.
fuzzyizmit@reddit
We are in the same boat, except we have kids as well. I wish it was just me and my husband. It would be so much easier.
WatersEdge50@reddit
Right. All I’m saying is that there are some really good points made in this post. Very helpful points. And things to think about when planning to emigrate from the United States
Affectionate_Age752@reddit
Social isolation? Clearly that's a "You" problem. We moved to greece 3 months ago, and have had more social interactions in 3 months than the last 4 years in LA.
As an Avery an who grew up in the Netherlands, I can say, it's a very social country. As my wife learned when we've visited there.
canalcanal@reddit
This is the sort of confusion that ensued when you just think of it as “Eurohhpuh”
AmexNomad@reddit
I moved to Greece in 2016, knew nobody, and have more social invitations than I can handle. And moving here has been great for my finances. I’m saving more money being retired here, than I saved when I was working/living in The US. Plus- the healthcare here is impressive
Affectionate_Age752@reddit
We already love it here
AmexNomad@reddit
I moved here from SF! Just bought a villa. Real estate here is The Wild West.
Affectionate_Age752@reddit
True
SexySwedishSpy@reddit
Great post. This all needed to be said. Moving internationally kills a part of your soul. It adds other parts, so it evens out, but it's not an escape or easy solution. It can absolutely destroy you and you need to be strong enough to keep going until the rest of the pieces have started to fit together again.
I say this as someone who moved Sweden --> England --> Scotland --> Canada --> Sweden. Every time you pick up and leave you literally need to start your life over with new jobs, new places, and new friends.
hungry-axolotl@reddit
I also felt like I lost something when I moved abroad as well. Luckily I can be quite stubborn sometimes so that's helped me keep going.
If it's okay, what made you leave Canada and back to Sweden? I'm considering Sweden as one of my options for job hunting. To add, I'm also halfway done the Danish course on Duolingo and I'm thinking if I should switch or keep going with Danish.
SexySwedishSpy@reddit
I moved to Canada because I was given a great job offer by a professional contact. They helped me with the move and immigration. Unfortunately, 18 months after I got there there did a corporate restructuring and my new department was laid off. I chose to return to Europe (even if I had to pay for that move myself). It was helped along by my first nephew being due that year too, so it just felt like it was time to come home! I'd lived abroad for 15 years at that point.
hungry-axolotl@reddit
Fair enough, thanks for replying! And sorry to hear you got laid off that's unlucky
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Absolutely not for me. It's been liberating and affirming.
Pale-Candidate8860@reddit
Your -> shows that. Haha
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Good point. Thank you.
KartFacedThaoDien@reddit
A better way To put it is “every time you move you start out as baby.” Because that’s what it’s essentially like to learn how to do everything again
net_dev_ops@reddit
US is perfect to make money, to then FIRE in Europe. After having put through college two kids (a responsibility I took on, in order to get them debt free, post school), I moved to France three years ago. There is absolutely nothing I regret having left back in the States, other than the kids, but even they now prefer to come and visit me (and what's beautiful in France, or in neighboring countries, all reachable by fast trains or inexpensive flights, of course) twice a year.
Every day I wake up and have my coffee, while - if no travel plans - thinking of whether I should ride the bike to the beach, or visit one of the tons of farmer markets, or my good friend the butcher, who knows my favorite cuts of meet, or my boulanger, who set aside an épie and some sweets for me, or the fromager, who has some nice cheeses for me to try, or the fish store, with latest catch brought that morning from the sea, or go and read at a terrace, or meet with friends for interminable conversations over 2hrs lunches or 3+hrs dinners, with no one asking me if I'm done yet, or a visit to one of the endless cultural events, which I can attend by amazingly well functiong AND FREE public transportation, - well, almost lost track of commas and dashes - so every time at the morning coffee, croissant, pain aux raisins pour chocolat, or baguette, etc. I can't really believe that this is real. And it's my new life.
Add to the above - of course - the €8/visit, to see my primary care physician, any time I need, undergo complex or routine exams, at the medical centers or hospitals, never for more than 60-80€ (which I have to pay because I decided to not top the government social support with a private insurance, like others do), or the fact that my last visit to ER was charged 19€ (again, because of not having a private insurance), or my regular medication, which costs me €6/3 months, vs €110/month, with insurance, while in the States, and I can't possibly understand how people have been brainwashed into accepting the US system (which is another thing I most certainly won't ever miss).
At the time of my escape I could have never imagined the present choice of leadership, and the total lack of ability of his opposition, having made possible his reach to the top, but now I know that even with the apparent political troubles in my new home country, at times, which are part of the dynamics of strong democracy, I could never wish to be back.
My non religious inclinations, and ability to avoid the god being brought up by fanatics, is the cherry on the top.
"ATTENTION! YMMV
ratbastard_lives@reddit
That life sounds amazing. How much financial security would I have to have to pull off such a feat?
net_dev_ops@reddit
Most definitely less than trying to do the same in the US. I'd say 60-75(max)%.
First-Local-5745@reddit
How old are you if I may ask? I was in Menton, France in October. I really loved it there but wasn't there long enough to get a feel for the place. If I were to live part-time though, I would choose a place further west on the Med.
net_dev_ops@reddit
Menton is indeed nice. I like it better than Nice, within that area.
You are correct about moving slightly SW - less crowded than Côte d'Azur, and closer to the best seafood in France. 🙂
HairRaid@reddit
(adding the /s for those who haven't drunk their Americanos yet)
Frobisher413@reddit
I was an expat for 15 years, and recently returned to the US. I had many amazing experiences - lived in 6 countries and travelled to many more - but also felt connections with friends and family weaken over time. My main observation was that expats are either running towards something, or running away from something. And if you're not sure which column you're in, then you need to do some serious self-reflection.
Pale-Candidate8860@reddit
I left to be with my wife. Everything else I have struggled with, achieved, and strive for is tied to her and my daughter.
The bureaucracy is way less b.s. than the U.S. here, but wait lists are very discouraging at times. But when it's your turn, you feel like the wait was worth it(preschool was 13 months to get in).
I chose to get a service based job which really helped me make friends with coworkers and even frequent clients. I highly suggest this if you know the language of the country you move to. Customer service here is shit.
Work culture and overall culture seemed the same on the surface, but was still a shock to me. Despite the similarities, the work ethic and ways they problem solve here are disappointing and/or concerning at times. You have to work as a collective and being a rising star is discouraged. I've been pulled to the side a couple of times talking about not working so hard and to slow down.
I left the U.S. to start a family. My children will likely never see what I've seen and will only know an easy life relative to me. To some extent, there are more opportunities here than in the U.S., they're just not financial.
Canada for those wondering.
ZingingCutie45@reddit
Bump
ratbastard_lives@reddit
Well thought out post. I'm an ex-pat of 30 years (successful I might add in doing all the things that OP said were not easy (they aren't) and I agree with everything mentioned. I would add, you should try living somewhere a while before cutting any ties.
Please_send_baguette@reddit
Adjacent to social isolation but in my opinion big enough to be its own point: what does moving away imply for your family. It feels fine, even normal, to move away from your parents when you’re in your 20s, but as they age, not being able to support them or visit them on short notice gets harder each year.
If you have kids, they’re going to grow away from grandparents and cousins. They’re going to grow belonging to a culture that is not yours. You can do your best to transmit a heritage language, but success is not guaranteed and either way, your children will not be of your culture. They will go through a school system that’s unfamiliar to you. You will be unable to help them navigate their many bicultural and second gen challenges.
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
"not being able to support them or visit them on short notice gets harder each year. "
I've been abroad for 35 years and it hasn't yet gotten more difficult.
Substantial-Past2308@reddit
If you have the funds to go every year twice or more, then it's great-ish, for sure
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
That would not be great. Quite the opposite.
Substantial-Past2308@reddit
So how has it not gotten more difficult for you then? You just don’t go? Lol
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Being far away is not at all difficult. I'm happy to be far away. If I were closer I would be expected to visit more often.
reddit33764@reddit
Some people prefer to be close instead of far. That being said, it's a matter of how close, how far, and how easily and willing one is to make the trip.
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Yes, some people do. Some people don't. C'est la vie.
Please_send_baguette@reddit
I think they’re saying they’re very happy not to see their parents (or not see them much) anymore until they die.
cats_and_bread@reddit
This. Also, I think, rarely it is spoken that you and your children will always be different from locals, even if you get language right. As much as we hate to admit it but every culture is different and just changing location does not erase your heritage. Your kids will be raised different from locals because their home life will be different. I know a 3rd gen expat who speaks fluent local language, same as his parents, but you can still tell quickly that his mentality differs from others.
egriff78@reddit
I'm struggling with this rn. Aging parents back in the US and Italy while living with youngish kids in the Netherlands. Everything seemed so easy and normal when I moved abroad in my early 20s and married a European. Now for better or worse, I'm stuck.
Not that I don't have a great life here. But my perspective is much different nowadays, with experience and agjng:-(
Apprehensive_Sense83@reddit
Completley understand that side of the argument, but I've had an extremely different experience.
I decided to sell everything I owned in the States two years ago and travel the world solo. Maybe some of the differences in our opinion is that after selling houses, cars, furniture, tools, and a few guns... I managed to escape with around 250k usd and semi retired.
I've been to about 30 countries so far but prefer to spend most of my time in 3rd world countries where prices are affordable.
That being said, I'm an extrovert to the fullest degree and enjoy talking to strangers and making new friends everywhere I go. That also gives me free crash pads when I visit new friends countries. Now i don't pay for hotels in Australia, Germany, Japan, Greece, Austria, romania, turkey , or Italy after meeting other travelers in Asia and South America.
Dating entitled, feminist women from the States who feel the man should pay for everything while cooking/cleaning is beneath them doesn't appeal to me. While dating abroad is like shooting fish in a barrel with no dating app needed if you're comfortable approaching strangers and striking up conversation.
Anyway, that's my experience traveling abroad for what it's worth. If making friends or potentially traveling to semi dangerous areas isn't for you, then none of this applies. Best wishes and good luck
Strongraintime@reddit
And remember, you may call yourself expats, but for people in foreign countries you are just immigrants.
TheNightMaven@reddit
One thing I don't think people think about enough is that when you are living in another country, even on an appropriate visa, you still do not have all the rights of a full citizen. In the US, we have a certain assumption about what our "Rights" are (even though they are currently under threat by our own government) and feel confident in being able to access and rely on those rights (for the most part). But in another country you don't have those same rights--not those of the citizens of that country and most certainly not your American rights. I worked in international schools and when I lived in China and there was some global tensions, our head of school told us to really mind how we went because there had been a few cases of other expat teachers being snatched up for things like having some pot (very bad) and lord knows what happened to them--they seemed to just disappear completely or for long periods of time and then we might hear that they were shipped out. When I lived in Thailand, again, while much more foreigner-friendly, you could still be kicked out or detained however they saw fit. Now, of course, some countries are "friends" with the US and don't want to cause an international incident, but day-to-day, you are at their mercy. You are there at their pleasure and your American constitutional rights are null and void once you leave the motherland! I say this as someone who is seriously considering getting back into the international school circuit just so I can leave the US for a while.
Agletss@reddit
I think these are all great things to think about but as someone who has thought about being an expat for 10 years this definitely feels like an anti-expat subreddit.
Alostcord@reddit
Everything you stated is right in the mark.
AlbaMcAlba@reddit
I’ve lived and worked with in more than a handful of countries and never gave it a second thought. I worked in Telco or similar so the language was almost always English. Never had any intention of remaining long term although in hindsight should have stayed in Switzerland.
I’m Scottish BTW most recently spent 3 years in the US but now back in UK.
If you get the opportunity to travel/work overseas I’d say take the plunge if you’re not risk adverse.
temmoku@reddit
There are frustrations, but at least they are new frustrations
My glass half full take
CoolTomatoh@reddit
But what if someone just wants to run away?
AtomicBlondeeee@reddit
The last sentence is key as a former expat in several countries for over a decade.
jesst7@reddit
It's also about quality vs quantity of life. If you don't mind making less money and can afford to live in a place abroad, then that might be worth it. Also knowing someone there helps, friend or family. Also speaking the language and embracing the new culture instead or combating it.
verticalgiraffe@reddit
As someone who spent a good chunk of their life in the EU (7-8 years total), it really frustrates me when I see all these posts about moving to Europe. It isn't some kind of utopia and you're still going to be in the rat race, so to speak.
Host_Horror@reddit
Outstanding post OP!
Ferret_Person@reddit
Maybe you will or won't know the answer to this, but as someone actively on the DAFT, do you know if a medical professional registered in the Netherlands could start their own clinic off of this program? Or might there be some kind of restriction there?
alwaystooupbeat@reddit
I made a similar post. I think we have seen a lot of posts from people who have basically no hope of moving or would be made much worse off than staying put, or in some cases, both.
Cultural differences are huge, and if you're an adult, you're going to STRUGGLE with the difference in some countries. It's likely you'll be safer, have cheaper healthcare, and your kids might have better access to education, but the US tends to pay higher than most places for highly skilled people, you will likely not get access to welfare in a foreign country, weather might be worse, you might not speak the language etc.
Tiger_Tom_BSCM@reddit
Great post.
Pecncorn1@reddit
Really good post. I have changed countries five times over the 25 years I have been gone, your point on integrating, getting your feet on the ground takes time. A year at least to even really understand your new home even when you speak the language. The first year has been hard for me in every place I have lived.
Sassywhat@reddit
On the other hand, a first year can just also be a weird extended workacation with more bureaucracy. When I've just moved to a place, there's just so many new things to do and see and learn. Everything is fresh and every day is a new adventure, and something to look forward to even if it goes a bit poorly.
Pecncorn1@reddit
I'm retired, but I can't really say I disagree. The new wears off for me really fast these days though. I traveled so much for work there's not really anyplace I can think of that excites me. I've been in Vietnam for the last 5 years, I really like the people here but have to admit I'm starting to get worn down. I might have one move left in me, starting all over again is tiresome. There is no perfect place.
Rambus_Jarbus@reddit
I lived in Italy for 2 years, if it didn’t have the Italian charm people would talk about it like America.
I saw police harass black immigrants in a park, then politely told us to go home.
The Venice canal has a shit ton of money but it never goes to it.
I paid a school $20 to learn Italian through the government, and the teacher never made it from Milan.
Now for the culture: Italians have very little time for anyone outside of family. If you don’t Italian, they won’t speak English. I talked to a few Italians, but could never get on a level with them.
If you don’t know the language it will be hard. You will always be the outsider.
But it’s a shit ton of fun
rruler@reddit
Moving was amazing - i actually fully think if you can, you should
FrauAmarylis@reddit
Also, your US credit score is meaningless abroad. So in Germany and the UK, we had to pay 3-6 months rent upfront to get a place, and other Americans have paid a whole year’s rent in advance.
Tax rates are much higher in Europe! Sales tax is 17% and income tax is 35-40%. Salaries are typically lower than in the US. And in London there is the big monthly Council tax!
The US has a lot of conveniences. There are some states that have inconvenient laws, like no alcohol being sold until noon on Sundays (hi, Georgia!), dry counties (hi, Alabama!), and transportation can be less convenient, but….
Kitchens- many rental apartments in Europe don’t come with a kitchen. That’s right. They are rented without a countertop, appliances, a sink, cupboards, etc. Our experience with it was in Germany.
In Europe the store hours are not typically as convenient- in Germany most stores, even grocery stores and pharmacies, are closed on Sundays. Even here in London, stores are not open as many hours as in the US. Sundays tend to be days spent in parks or at home with family, and as an expat you don’t have family nearby. This can be hard.
Laundry- in London and many other places in Europe, clothes dryers in apartments are rare. We had one in Germany, though. In London, if you’re lucky you’ll have a combi (washer/dryer in one small machine) that is in your kitchen and it takes 4 hours to do a small load, and it still won’t be dry when you take it out, and electricity is expensive. We just use the launderette- well my husband bid the laundry person, not me.
Quiet appliances. In the US, our appliances are all labeled Whisper because they are so quiet. That’s uncommon in London.
Cars- we are car-free here and we’re in Germany, but I was car-free in Southern California (free rideshare app for all residents of our city, free trolley, walkable) and Northern Virginia, too. But all the other 29k Americans my husband worked with in Germany had cars. Even when the desire is there, it’s really difficult for Americans to make the leap to go without a car. You have to carry your umbrella, your shopping, your medicines, coats, gym stuff, etc all with you in good and bad weather. You can’t just lock it in the trunk when you’re living car-free. People seem rushed, because arriving one minute late can make your whole journey time increase by 30 minutes because of the connections, frequency, etc. of the trains and buses. You’re also more vulnerable to theft and losing your stuff. Public transport in London is pricey. Buses here travel 6mph. It can take 30 minutes to go 3 miles.
Reverse Culture Shock- you may expect culture shock living abroad, but Once you live abroad for a few years, it isn’t easy to live back in the US. Your expat experience has opened your mind in ways that your American friends and neighbors can’t relate to and you may find them to be intolerant and scared to get out of their bubble, and lacking curiosity about other people and cultures. Expats often feel caught between two worlds. We feel most comfortable around other expats.
Healthcare- isn’t typically free or better. Depending on your visa, you may have to pay upfront for healthcare as a visa requirement, even if you have US insurance that covers you abroad. Plus, everyone we know in London buys private dental insurance. And many Americans here fly to the US for healthcare. In Germany my husband had to have 3 MRIs and be on morphine for a week until they figured out his health issue, and our professor friend was told he was fine in Germany and then flew home to a South America and had gall bladder surgery, much to his relief. My German language teacher suffered from a painful wrist for months and still was waiting to see a doctor in Germany.
Spontaneity- you need to make reservations weeks or months in advance in Germany and London and in many parts of Europe. Businesses also have limited hours.
I could go on further, but OP covered a lot too.
South-Beautiful-5135@reddit
“In Europe”. Many of the things you are listing are widely different in different European countries…that’s because Europe is not a country.
LateBreakingAttempt@reddit
True, I'm in the Czech Republic and for example my healthcare here has been amazing. Same day appointments often, or at least the same week, not too long a wait for specialists, affordable prescriptions, no copays or deductibles. Every country in Europe can be quite different
Fit_Caterpillar9732@reddit
Aren’t you a fun example of what the OP warned of. Your comment betrays an extremely American view of “comfortable “ and “convenient” (stores aren’t open day and night when you actually pay fair wages and compensate the workers for THEIR inconvenient schedule), you are annoyed that you also need to actually contribute to the society (ie pay taxes) that let’s you live and enjoy the services and infrastructure at the same level as locals, and on the whole you expected “Europe” to function just like the USA but slightly more picturesque.
And you think Germany and London represent the entire continent of 40 countries, when despite our most ambitious efforts on the political Left we haven’t even been able to harmonise taxation within the 27 EU countries.
It’s actually good that other societies don’t count accumulated debt as “credit”, you know.
nomadicgecko22@reddit
If your thinking of escaping to the UK because of US election results, your going to be disappointed.
The UK follows the US and the US follows the UK in trends. I.e. things are tested on both sides of the pond, and what works is copied in the other side.
The UK had brexit + Cambridge analytica -> the US followed with Trump -> the UK followed with Boris Johnson (British Trump) -> The US went democrat -> The UK went left (labour) -> The US went ultra rightwing -> the UK will likely follow
B3stThereEverWas@reddit
On the r/movingtousa sub it’s like every second post is a Brit wanting to move to the US. I’m not seeing a lot in the other direction
kitanokikori@reddit
Why would you see people wanting to move to the UK in a sub labeled "Moving to USA"
nomadicgecko22@reddit
that makes sense as British professional salaries are terrible
brass427427@reddit
That's because most Americans don't even know where it is.
AlpsGroundbreaking@reddit
Awesome post. I know for myself I just want to live somewhere with better public transport/walkable cities and a country that has better data privacy laws than the US. Those are two pretty major things for me. I also dont have any family or close friends and have actually lived in Australia for a while so culture shock or new places and being alone dont bother me. Got used to those things already. Im willing to learn a new language too.
Its mostly just the opportunities. Most difficult part. I mean hell I struggle finding new jobs here. Oh yeah paying income tax thing too if I happen to meet a certain tax threshold kind of blows as well. (though it is pretty high so very unlikely I would meet it anyways)
samnissen@reddit
I would expand on the “professional opportunities” part to also say “your material comfort will likely diminish”. For instance, by some metrics the UK median worker would be the poorest in America if it joined the union as a state. The rest of Europe has even lower purchasing power. Money isn’t everything but if you enjoy A/C, tumble dryers, storage space, parking in a garage, regular restaurant meals, high-end electronics, roadtrips, etc. — be very selective about the circumstances you move to. Countries with high quality social services usually fund those with high taxes on earnings and businesses, so your ability to rise above the median circumstance is very limited.
Faith_Location_71@reddit
This post should be pinned. Anyone thinking they can flee America for some utopia should prepare themselves.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Half of this sub thinks they now live in utopia because they have their nice US salaries in countries where CoL costs half or because they left with "just" 300k of savings. Look! Nobody is racist and everybody smiles in this neighborhood where the cheapest property goes for 800k! Europe is so kewl and walkable! Wait, let me check real quick ky assets I left in an American broker account regustered at my grandma's address so I don't have to pay EU taxes on them...
ritaq@reddit
Agree 100%
Even with the current political climate, opportunities in any tech still pale in comparison with any country in the EU, when you compare total compensation and career progression. It’s also a much better country for entrepreneurship
I think it’s only worth it if you move at the C-level. Back then, they used to pay for everything (house, school, else)
Based on my personal experience, most of the US folks that moved to Spain (mostly Madrid) are there temporarily teaching English and later return to US for a professional career
ohblessyoursoul@reddit
Yep. Just have realistic expectations but it still was a net gain overall. I encourage anyone who wants to move to do just that, move!
brailsmt@reddit
I'm definitely thinking of leaving the US. I know the language and culture of my target country after living there for a few years. Not a perfect understanding, but I know way more than the average Joe. Since I lived there, I always wanted to retire there. I have a career in IT with 20+ years experience. I speak the language. The culture is attractive to me, I want to assimilate. The current state of things has only accelerated my thinking. The real trick will be the visa, it's not guaranteed by a long shot.
RexManning1@reddit
Quality post. #2 is so important. I keep seeing people try to fit a visa into their box rather than fit into the visa’s box, which is how it’s supposed to work.
Critical_Cut_6016@reddit
Based take.
Ease of travel for pleasure nowadays has convinced a huge number of people visiting, that perminately moving somewhere is just the same. The amount of people with grass is greener syndrome is staggering.
1Angel17@reddit
W post 👏
Imaginary_Pin_4196@reddit
As a Brit, thank you for this post. Some parts of Europe is very progressive in its ways of doing things. I love talking to Americans when they’re on holiday, but a move away to Europe is a whole different ball game.
Glass_Confusion448@reddit
My experience has been that the frustrations many people feel are not caused by cultural differences, but by the unrealistic expectations that every person in one geographical area shares the same culture and that every person who moves to that geographical area needs to "fit in" and "assimilate."
We all pick and choose the parts of the cultures that exist in our home countries and feel no need to adopt any aspect of culture we disagree with. There is nothing wrong with being an individual and being different.