And yet Americans buy the largest cars with poor fuel economy. Why even bother caring about this survey when they put their money in the opposite direction of what they say they want?
People who drive hybrids are not the ones complaining about gas prices. Heck, I have a normal ICE sedan and I don't complain about gas prices. But if I had a SUV or truck with a 6 or 8 cylinder, I suppose gas prices would become a lot more relevant.
My 2011 6 cylinder is doing fine with current fuel prices. I just drive a little less. Even the 4Runner, also a 6 cylinder, and a bit of a gas hog, just sits a lot. I can see how people with long commutes might be bothered by these prices, but I’d think those people have already opted for a more efficient vehicle.
Gas prices have fluctuated within the same $1.00 - $1.50 range for 20 years. That means gas prices are effectively flat if not falling in real terms.
Couple that with more efficient cars and I ignore any complaint about gas prices because I know it's in bad faith
I think a lot of it is (a decent chunk of, not all) people being *told* gas prices are terrible by political personalities/podcasters, or shown selective examples of places in the US where it's abnormally high, and just running with that. A whole lot of people have their opinions handed to them and/or live in echo chambers online that are disconnected from reality.
That aside, a lot of people don't understand economics so they pin the blame on whoever the sitting president is for not using the (set gas prices to X) button that they apparently have on their desk.
I'm not of course talking about *actual* price spikes, but the lies told for political expediency.
> Far too many people have their opinions handed to them and/or live in echo chambers online that are disconnected from reality.
I don't even think it's an echo chamber thing, just one of critical thinking.
We purchase gas in a way that causes most of us to be keenly aware of its price trends. Think about how smart the average person is, then yadda yadda...
Yeah it's really disappointing and frustrating. Do they think the president
1. wants high gas prices which would kill his or her party or
2. has a magic dial which makes prices go up and down?
Yeah i get my gas at Sam's club because it's always cheaper than costco. My 2024 KIA Sportage is usually around $35.00 to fill up and that gets around 400 miles of range.
$3.15? Seriously? Maybe the real issue is the number of Americans who can't afford gas at $3.15 per gallon with a 15 year old 4 banger. If you can't afford that, you probably can't afford a lot of other necessities.
I completely agree with what you said about affording $3.15/gallon, but in all fairness, that person's TSX gets 21/30 mpg. In 2025, for a 4 cylinder, those are horrible numbers.
21/30 mpg still isn't that bad, my 16 year old 2.9l Colorado gets around 17/23. I still can't complain though, I use the truck to move my bikes, one of which says it's averaging 70mpg.
Like for like, it hasn't changed for 2025 - the current TLX 4 cylinder base trim (closest to what replaced their TSX) gets 22/31 in EPA testing, but is actually likely worse in reality due to the fuel you consume coming in and out of boost all the time. Their old TSX is actually a reasonably fuel efficient car if you keep it out of VTEC.
The base 2025 TLX weighs 250 lbs. more and makes a lot more power than the base 2009 TSX. So it's not an apples to apples comparison, even if they are "similar" Acura sedans.
All vehicles have gotten heavier and more powerful since 2010, but that doesn't mean the TLX is magically not comparable to the vehicle it replaced. Even comparing it to the last non-hybrid Accord, that only got 29/37, which isn't earth shattering.
More or less, yes they have. But there's also been improvements to mpg over the years in addition to the extra power and extra weight. Powertrains have become more efficient since 15 years ago. 29/37 for the current 1.5L Accord is much better than 22/31 for the TLX. Sure, the Accord weighs less and makes less power, but it's still very efficient given its size.
exactly nj was $2.96 average in 2010, $3.12 today, same thing nationally (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/gasoline-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/)
One of the few items that has gotten *cheaper* over time, if 3.15 gas aint low enough in this day and year you have bigger prolbems in life
Oh yeah, victim blame the poor guy. Victim blame the guy who's struggles in life. Trying to put gas in his fucking gas tank. How arrogant can you be? We all suffer when gas prices go up. We all get fucked. The problem is the poor guy hurts more than anyone else and is ridiculed for complaining about it.
I see so many geniuses driving large vehicles with big engines bitching about gas prices.
Like yea Bob, no shit. You don't need a V8 to jump the mall curbs.
In Sept 2005, gas was $2.95. Today, gas is $3.13. It's been stagnant since mid-2005 with fluctuations. Inflation-adjusted peak was all the way back in 2008.
I don't know what the fuck you're talking about but the price of gas has not been constant at all. Here in La gas prices can be up as almost seven bucks. A gallon in some places right now. Most gas stations I see are $4.60 a gallon to $4.75 a gallon. That's fucking insane. Gas shouldn't be more than a dollar or $2 a gallon . I personally don't care about inflation or how things have supposedly been stagnant when you don't factor in these fluctuations. All I care about is what's posted on the sign and what money is in my wallet. And the only thing that's changed is the cost on the sign.
Dude, stop being a whiny little spoiled bitch. Americans pay the lowest gas prices of any developed country, and have by far the highest income-to-gas-price ratio in the world. The average in Europe is like $7/gal, and they make significantly less on average than us. This means that Americans literally have the most affordable gas in the world, and you’re *still* complaining?
Well akshualy, *pushes up glasses*
Gas should be significantly more expensive. We subsidize the fuck out of gasoline prices because it's this weird political talking point here and oil companies have trillions to lobby to keep the prices low. If we stopped subsidizing gas and let the market actually work, we'd be just as expensive as the rest of the world, even though we produce most of our own oil domestically.
Yeah if you want to be pedantic with the dates sure. But for me 20 years ago it meant 2001 to 2002 or 2003 where gas was about a buck or two bucks a gallon.
You have it reversed. Generally gasoline prices spike in the transition to summer blend due to higher demand and the lower RVP requirements increasing cost of production.
Well these are also averages. Where I live, Premium gas is only 0.20 more than Regular, a $2 difference in price across a 10 gallon fill-up. But in some states it can be an entire dollar more expensive, which can make filling up $10 more expensive for a 10-gallon fill-up.
And don't forget that the "average" may be stagnant, but people's wallets did not flow with those gas prices. A lot of people were panicking during those spikes that lasted entire months where it doubled or tripled their gas budgets, depending on local conditions.
We complain about the cost when it spikes and we're happy when it dips because no one's wallets rise and fall with the gas prices like that.
People will complain about whatever is easiest. Gas is something you buy all the time, so it's most visible and therefore easy to complain about. IMHO, the much larger and more important issue is housing inflation.
I'm more bothered by increasing food costs. I feel like inflation has hit that way more. Gas just keeps on fluctuating randomly. I already gave up on owning a house when I have a stable job in my field.
What's wrong with the 4-speed? Every single midsize sedan of that era used a 4-speed auto. Taurus, Camry, Galant, 626, Legacy, and Accord all had 4-speeds.
I’m mostly being hyperbolic, but the only gripe I really have with it is that it sits at 3k rpm when I’m doing 75-80 on the interstate. Not good for gas.
But I could solve that myself so eh 🤷🏽♂️.
Ahh yeah, that's a good point. I know that feeling. I've owned a bunch of Honda's over the years with high revving engines. My last Civic really needed a 6th gear for highway cruising.
Why wouldn't he be complaining, I am. 20 years ago or so gas used to be between a dollar and $2 a gallon. That's where it should be. Just because things have gone good for you in the last 20 years. Doesn't mean things have gone well for anyone else. Just because time moves doesn't mean gas prices have to go up or other things just for some reason have to be more expensive.
The problem is that while everything else adjusts around inflation, wages really haven't. Gas is on the list of things that you need to be able to live in modern America. It really should be cheaper since we don't have real public transportation. Even states with a minimum wage of $15 it really isn't enough to support yourself with.
>ust because time moves doesn't mean gas prices have to go up or other things just for some reason have to be more expensive.
I uh...don't even know where to begin with this one.
this is how i feel about video games
i see people complain all the time about the price but all i can think of is saving up for a whole year to afford a game back in the day, because they were the same price as they are now. not to mention all the free games that are out there now.
Same. I've been roasted for it but for like $500 you can literally fill every available hour of your day with gaming. There isn't a hobby that comes close in terms of cost efficiency. I think I've probably played 2,000 hour of League of Legends and spent at most $40 on skins.
Because over the same time minimum wage hasn't changed, yet the price of everything else has doubled. We have to get to work somehow so we stay angry at the lowest hanging fruit!
Only 1% of the labor force earns minimum wage, the lowest ever %. Americans are by and large doing better than ever - it just doesn't feel like it.
https://usafacts.org/articles/minimum-wage-america-how-many-people-are-earning-725-hour/
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I'm pretty sure your country's cities are designed to be liveable (and best lived) without a car and mass transportation is also a thing too. Europe tends to handle those things better. A lot better. But $10 a gallon sounds like a horror story.
You are thinking about southern europe. We are probably one of the most car dependent country in europe. In the center of biggest cities and anywhere in the capital you survive without car but anywhere else car is almost mandatory.
i think you're getting downvoted because the TSX requires 93 octane, which you're obviously not putting into the car at $3.15/g. that probably has something to do with your complaints.
If you're buying a car that requires premium, you know full well the cost going into it. Personal opinion, but that means you have no right to complain about the fuel cost if you want something as cheap to run as a Prius.
I don't think anyone is downvoting him for that. I think people are downvoting him because redditors have room temperature iqs and just auto downvote anything that is already negative. His previous post is high in the positives lmao
I'm generally liked around here. At least I think. But if it's anything remotely close to politics I usually get hit by the angry mob. Even if it isn't really offensive or controversial. I'm used to it by now.
I use regular. I know I'm not meant to but I've had 2 cars with the same engine. They took it fine. I don't care about the down votes. I'm just saying that gas prices can be a problem for someone driving an older car even if it's a 4 cylinder.
I was paying more than $4 per gallon in high school and college 15 years ago in the northeast.
Everything *but* gas has gone up in that time.
I feel like people got used to sub $2 prices during the pandemic and forgot that that was not the norm
What would you expect gas to be prices would be my question - adjusting for inflation gas has stayed pretty constantly around $3/gal in 2024 dollars, obviously when there are world events (oil embargo, US invading the ME, Russian warmongering/COVID bounceback) it effects prices.
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10641
I have a 4 cylinder Subaru and I still complain about gas prices, but not in the typical way. My gripe is why is 93 octane now $1.40 more a gallon over regular. It was like 50 to 60 cents more for years now in more recent years it's almost 50% more than regular. I filled up my truck with regular for $2.859 and filled up the Subaru for $4.099 the other day.
Not in my neck of the woods. I drive a hybrid that gets great mileage, but i live in Southern California, and in my area gas is still regularly pushing $5 per gallon, so I’m definitely still complaining about it
I daily my 08 Mustang GT and my weekend car is my 21 Miata that gets nearly double the MPG and I just think about not having a monthly payment as making the 17 MPG Mustang worth it! (The V8 burbles/rumble also make me appreciative).
Well, truth be told gas does need to go up in price. We Americans have been paying artificially low gas prices for the past century, at the cost of having zero infrastructure for anything BUT personal transportation.
Sadly, I'm not surprised that I had to scroll this far to see this comment. Redditors, generally speaking, are incapable of thinking outside of the box.
I have two Toyota Land Cruisers that get around 12mpg combined driving. I don't complain. I chose this and I love the trucks so no complaints here. If I wanted something more fuel efficient I would find a used late 90's Corolla.
Why specifically a late 90's Corolla? Those get about 28 mpg combined, whereas a new non-hybrid Corolla gets about 34 combined. Not to mention being much safer and roomier.
I don’t really complain about gas prices bc I’m all for cleaner fuels and I can afford gas. However, my hybrid only gets 22mpg and holds 30 gallons. So fill ups are expensive.
For sure. It’s an f150 which I need for regular towing. It’s also the backup generator for my house which was very useful this hurricane season. It also fully powers my camper when boodocking if the solar can’t cut it. If I didn’t need to tow I would not have such a large vehicle.
Part of me wishes Ford would do the sane thing and make a 2.7L Ecoboost version of the Powerboost tuned for fuel economy.
Those trucks N/A are getting 20 city/26 highway.
When the F150 PowerBoost came out I thought it was such a good fit for your use cases. I'm living the city apartment life but if I were out in the boonies it'd be on my shortlist. I also have silly fantasies like running an inflatable hot tub out at a campsite but that's a different story.
I've accepted my fate with a gas guzzling pickup truck and $4.00 a gallon. I do want a hybrid, but a paid off car feels a lot better, especially with the times to come.
Well, a paid off car with poor gas mileage is still a significantly better prospect than a car payment and some slight savings at the pump.
Still stings when you gotta fill up though, I'm sure.
My Jeep gets atrocious mileage, but I never complain about the prices. Instead, I complain about the car. Cause it's entirely my fault that I chose something with poor mileage.
The USA should start taxing gas like Europe does, but people don't care about climate change of public transportation in this country, so that likely won't ever happen until Florida is mostly under water.
>But if I had a SUV or truck with a 6 or 8 cylinder, I suppose gas prices would become a lot more relevant.
This is 100% accurate for me.
Despite knowing the physics, it still somehow amazes me I get roughly the same amount of miles from 3/4 of a tank in my 4 banger sedan vs my V8 truck. Needless to say I prefer to drive the sedan over the truck most of the time.
The tank sizes are pretty different though, right? Like, they're both trying to target similar miles per tank (a bit over 300ish) but the gallons per fill are pretty different, right?
Yes. I could've explained that better.
About a 16 gallon tank on the sedan and gets about 27.5 mpg.
And for the truck, it's a 26 gallon tank averaging about 16.8 mpg.
I get about 340 miles for 3/4 tank on both.
Well they're "wildly popular" because car makers got major goodboy points for selling hybrids.
So a lot of car makers said "Well fuck it, no one really cares about fuel economy to the point of compromising performance here, let's just put in some shitty baby electric motor that'll maybe start the car and take 0.1 seconds off the 0-60 time while adding weight and complicate the powertrain but will let us check the hybrid box."
Yes, but only because Toyota switched some of their most popular offerings from mainly gas to hybrid only. People aren't buying cars because they're hybrids, they're buying them because it's the same Toyota they've always bought, being a hybrid is just a bonus
Right, and some of those hybrids have very mediocre fuel economy. A Toyota Sequoia get around 20 mpg with its hybrid powertrain. The difference is very marginal for a large vehicle.
Not when you’re also being blinded from the light hitting your side mirrors. Flipping up your rear view certainly helps but doesn’t eliminate the issue.
Guess I don't need my truck to build my house 3.5 hours south of where I currently live. I can just strap everything to the roof of an accord. That or I can spend hundreds of dollars per trip to rent a truck from uhaul, because that makes financial sense. I can also rent a truck anytime I need to tow one of my cars. I can rent trucks whenever I want to go buy an arcade game out of state. 1100 mile road trip? Certainly a uhaul's per mile costs wouldn't make that uneconomical.
My wife doesn't need a forester. Whatever would a nurse who has to be at her shift in all weather conditions need with ground clearance and awd? It isn't like our city isn't known to have a terrible time clearing snow despite it happening several times a year. Sure she could have gotten a crosstrek. Would have done her zero good for the first week and a half of this year when there was 6 inches of snow in our subdivision's road. I guess I could have taken her to work in my truck, but then I am not supposed to have that either.
Love people who have zero clue about the live's of others complaining. They see a truck in a parking lot with an empty bed and then assume the owner has 0 use for it.
Funny how people in a country that is setup differently have different needs. Having lived in Belgium the cost of gas even in 2000 was eye watering. I also remember Europe being vastly different than the midwest. Strange to think that Waterloo might not be like living in St. Louis. Almost like someone who has no idea what they are talking about thinks they know what is best for an entirely different place on the planet.
That has nothing to do with it. There is a thing called a van and another thing called a trailer. No one needs a pickup.
The only reason half of the US is flooded with them is due to protectionist measures of the US government in the 70s that made it so that pickups don’t need to adhere to the same emission and safety standards.
Pure regional differences would explain why e.g. a ranger would be more popular here then an F150 - but given the only people buying pickups here are “special” people with cowboyhats, an F150 is more common, even though I think you need to import them
And there you go showing how little you know. The current Ford Ranger in America 19+ of which I own one, wasn't designed in America. It is part of the T6 platform designed in Australia and sold globally. It was sold from 2011 on and only made it to the US in 2019 when the ranger was reintroduced.
Also, to show you really shouldn't be talking about things you are clueless on. It wasn't emissions regulations from the 70's that made them popular. It was mpg standards set in the mid 90's. It became easier for larger vehicles to pass. A loophole I think should be closed. Up until the early 2000's trucks were very much bare bones. My 98 ranger was an xlt. Extra Luxury truck meant it had a/c. Manual everything, no cruise control, and a basic radio.
Trucks are not specific to north america. Van's are great. They have some amazing uses. They suck if you are hauling anything that makes a mess. They suck if you are hauling anything that is larger than the dimensions of your van. One of the great things about an open bed is that you can have things that dimensionally are larger than the bed in a way you can't with a van.
Van tow capacity tends to be lower. They are more in line with compact and up to about what a mid size truck can do. Being from Europe and space being more expensive you have no clue about some of what we tow. You also probably don't travel the same distances either. I live smack dab in the middle of america. It is not uncommon for people to tow a camper that will exceeds the max weight of a sprinter van to floridia for vacation. Where I am moving towing cattle is common. Renting and towing heavy equipment is common for working on your property. Something I cannot do with my current ranger sadly.
You did remind me that I do still want a pair of cowboy boots. Never had them, but my new places has 14 wooded acres. Workboots won't do much for snakes. They are also not great for deep mud either. A nice pair of cowboy boots would fill that need.
You keep telling yourself it’s not about your reproductive capabities.
Ranger VS f150 was about Europe, not US.
Mpg standards , indeed, but the end result is the same. It is however the 70s and not the 90s, so my version remains more correct then tours. The motivation however, protectionism is what matters. They are popular due to a loophole, not due to rational needs.
European who hasn't lived in the US tells the American who has lived in Europe what he needs. The motivation was protectionism? We eschewed the van because of protectionism?
That is what you are going with? Do me a favor, before you waste anymore of our time. Go read. This isn't rocket science and you way off based with why different countries have different automotive trends. Better yet, go listen to The Carmudgeon Show. They have a very good episode on why different countries vehicles evolved as they did. It would serve you better than these continued incoherent ramblings.
The protectionism in the 70s is a historical fact… you can BS all you want, does not change that.
The real reason western Europeans have more efficiënt cars is fiscality and not fuel price. I sold my last ICE because the taxes were getting close to an entry level Salary. The fuel cost was irrelevant by comparison.
I don’t mind a viper because it’s actually purpose build and good at something AND as opposed to suvs / pickups they are to expensive to be an environmental problem
It is called the chicken tax here. If you are talking about taxing foreign made light duty vehicles. It still doesn't explain what you want.
Toyota sr5, subaru brat, nissan hardbody, vw rabit all had light duty trucks here in the 80's and 90's. Toyota owns the mid size market here to this day.
Go do some reading. You can still hate trucks, but if you are going to argue make a real argument. Right now you are just wasting our time.
No this is about CAFÉ standards and other rules that great pickups / trucks differently as an attempt to protect US car makes. Chicken tax is afaik just an import tax
With cars getting so large many modern hybrids get relatively poor fuel economy. In 2006 there were multiple gas powered compact cars on the market that did 40+ mpg. Today even a smaller SUV hybrid like a crv hybrid does about 35.
A CRV hybrid does 43 city and 36 highway, a Highlander Hybrid does 35 city and 35 highway. If you want smaller compact cars that have crazy MPG get a Corolla, Prius, or Civic
Corolla and civic MPG have both gotten worse since the early 00’s as they have grown in size. My point being that despite hybrids being popular right now fuel economy is not significantly improving and in some cases getting worse.
What are you even talking about? Hybrids like the Elantra are getting 60mpg. Now, the best selling American car, the Camry, are 100% hybrids. And they're insanely fuel efficient too with the LE getting 51 combined. In massive numbers, this translated to A LOT of fuel savings.
Yes, I'd take the much larger Civic hybrid that a few MPG difference from the Corolla hybrid.
No they haven’t gotten worse. They’ve stayed the same or improved from what I’ve found on the EPAs website. And with that they’ve gotten safer, more comfortable, and cleaner burning engines.
Stop making shit up in your head
I feel like a RAV4 which is classed as a compact SUV is about the same size today as a full sized truck from 2005. The sizes of vehicles are absolutely monstrous today.
> I feel like a RAV4 which is classed as a compact SUV is about the same size today as a full sized truck from 2005.
What makes you say that? A full-size from 2005 is the same as a full-size today.
Yes but they are expensive and heavy with similar economy to a normal ICE compact. A RAV4 Hybrid gets the same highway economy as my 2008 Scion XD did (albeit better city economy) and that's one of the smallest CUVs available stateside.
A Scion XD has worse highway fuel economy at 33mpg, than the Rav 4 hybrid at 38 mpg. Not to mention all the advances in safety over that time frame, and the fact that there is a massive size difference between the two vehicles. They’re in very different classes of cars.
A Corolla hatchback is probably the closest thing they make to the XD and it gets 41 mpg highway.
Mine got 35-38 going 100 kph so I can assume the EPA underrated it. My point is that hybrid drivetrains don't fix the fact that cars are getting FAR too large in the US.
Don’t you think the other vehicles might beat their ratings then too?
A RAV4 is hardly an unnecessarily large vehicle, it’s stayed the same size since 2006. If an XD works for you that’s great, but it doesn’t work for everyone.
Well it depends, but I've noticed that fewer cars are overrated by the EPA anymore, but I really can't argue in either direction there since I don't know the specifics about the RAV4.
You're still missing the point though. I used the RAV as an example because there aren't that many full on hybrid SUVs, but this is what I'm trying to tell you with the information I gave: hybrid technology does not offset the efficiency loss of an SUV or CUV compared to a compact car.
That was my only point, and I do think that the data I provided supports it to a reasonable degree. Yes I understand that some people need more than the roughly 40 ft³ of cargo space or 5 seats that a compact hatch like the XD offers, and that's completely fair.
So I have to ask, why do you disagree with that thesis?
Cars have gotten more efficient, safer, more comfortable, and with cleaner burning engines than cars in the past.
No shit a compact car could be more efficient than a crossover, but a hybrid crossover that people want and will actually buy is better than a compact hatchback that they won’t buy or a regular crossover.
I had the same make/model of car as you for years! Beast of a car that I only fed gas, tires, and oil. I’m always amazed how large vehicles have gotten today without nary an upgrade in fuel efficiency.
> I’m always amazed how large vehicles have gotten today without nary an upgrade in fuel efficiency.
If anything, that shows how much the drivetrains continue to improve.
But they refuse to drive smaller cars.
Also full sized vehicles that still barely get 20mpg are flying off the lots. Half ton trucks are number one sellers every year
> Americans want big suv/trucks and good fuel mileage
Those exist, but the powertrains are anemic or sound terrible and have lingering issues that require premature repairs compared to v8 options(e.g. ford powerboost models)
The top selling non pickup vehicle in the US is the Rav4 which directly supports the above.
F-150 and Silverado sales include fleet buyers
Also people respond to what’s available at what cost for their material conditions so you can chill with that too
This sub man
> The top selling non pickup vehicle in the US is the Rav4 which directly supports the above.
Yeah, and after the RAV4 is the Model Y and then the CR-V (over half of which were hybrid).
Definitely Americans do care about fuel economy. I don't understand what that other guy is talking about. Why would people want to spend more gas money?
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/03/ford-f-series-sales-domination-isnt-assured-in-2024-according-to-new-study/
This further goes to suggest based on data from S and P global that excluding fleet sales the F-150, F-250 and F-350 combined outsell the Rav4 by .1 percent.
That’s effectively 3 different chassis, something like 8 powertrains and a multitude of other configuration options outselling the the Rav4 by a tenth of a percent.
Needless to say the RAV4 outsells the F-150 in the private market.
If you read the article and the report it is basically saying Americans consider fuel mileage etc very or extremely important when purchasing a car and they want THEIR vehicle to get better gas mileage.
It seems they combined that want and with the data that unless car manufacturers are forced by the government to improve fuel economy it does not happen as greatly.
They took those two things and then decided that consumers must want higher fuel economy standards. Which i mean. Maybe... but the key take away is the consumers want their cars to get better gas mileage than they are getting now which is such a vague concept im sure anyone can get behind it. Why would anyone say i want my car to get worse gas mileage?
Right, people imagine the same cars will just get more efficient if the government forces them to be more efficient. Reality is eventually that leads to compromises in price, powertrain complexity, weight, engine power etc. that people don't want, which is why most people don't buy a Prius or similar.
> It seems they combined that want and with the data that unless car manufacturers are forced by the government to improve fuel economy it does not happen as greatly.
Because the only thing supporting that Americans consider fuel mileage important is polling. Buying trends do *not* support that.
Guess which one manufacturers use to determine what vehicles to make and how to design them?
AKA, yes I’m gonna get a tank, but I want it to get Prius mileage, and no I won’t consider anything smaller or lighter that would get better economy because one time I thought about visiting Tahoe and so I need this tank despite living in Florida and never having actually seen a dirt road.
Look at the best selling vehicles outside of pickup trucks
Consider pickup truck models include all variants and substantial fleet sales
Understand that there are only 3 truck brands competing numerically with a multitude of car brands
Observe that the Rav4 alone moves a significant number of units and that you should probably realize that this cynicism is misplaced in addition to being annoying
Disregard all of the above and continue farming Karma in /r/cars
I’m just disappointed since the little commuter cars are all dying off.
I’ve got a farm truck, it’s great but not what I would call economical. We have a CRV and an older Passat as well, and this is what I use now for the bulk of my driving. It’s 25 years old and tired, but when it dies I pretty much have a Corolla or a civic to choose from in the economy commuter market.
You have the Impreza, Corolla, Civic, Jetta, K4, Elantra, Sentra, Versa, and if you can tolerate compact CUVs for this purpose the Kicks, Trax, Trailblazer, Soul and Venue.
They want utility AND fuel economy.
Americans don't necessarily care as much about getting 50mpg if they can get 30mpg and good cargo space + ground clearance.
I remember when it was initially selling for sub 20k for the barebones early 2020 before the chip shortages killed the Mavericks value proposition ever since
I still like the idea of them. But I can't shake paying ~$30k for something that was designed to be the bottom of the barrel. There's a lot of lipstick on that pig.
Exactly.
I got shafted on 2, one in 2022 and one in 2023. The 2022 was sold from under me. The 2023 the dealer added a $5k markup when I went to pick it up...
I gave it a break for a while then decided to order a 2024 when order times really dropped down to 6 weeks or so. I was pumped to find a dealer I could trust.
We'll, over that 6 weeks the fact Ford has raised the prices of the Mav several thousand while also taking features away really irked me.
I ended up just walking away from it when it came in, never went to pick it up. It's already a $20k truck at its core and to pay $30k+ for it just doesn't feel right. They are cheaply built trucks.
They did the same with the bronco. I had a 2 door base spec on order in 2022 for $29,500. I just watched as they raised the price literally 6 times in the 14 months I had that order in. Then ford canceled it on me, and with that I lost my price protection.
That same spec is nearly $10,000 more right now.
Yeah I like them too, but at the end of the day my needs a vehicle were stick, 4x4, offroad suspension. So I just moved down the list to the Tacoma and bought one.
I liked the Big Bend two years ago when they were 34k and came with cloth seats. That trim is basically just the base spec, but they're allowed to have options added. The $500 (or whatever it is) rear locker would be an easy choice to tick for me, even though I don't end up in situations where those are often needed. It will also help resale.
I would personally avoid any car that came with vinyl seats. But if you're cool with that and with the cost then go for it.
It's crazy that that optional rear locker for the Big Bend is now gone. I managed to get one with that option ticked about a few weeks before order books closed for 2024, and was built in the last production weeks before 2025s.
It's a 6k CAD option pack that used to be the Black Diamond trim now.
Yeah, one thing that doesn't come through from photos is how big the Bronco is. It's much wider and taller than you think it will be. The Bronco is one of the only non-hybrid vehicles I know of that gets worse fuel economy on the highway than it does in the city.
Then again, it's not like the Tacoma I ended up buying is much better.
But what really makes no sense to me is that both of those vehicles get very similar gas mileage to my 1999 5.0 Mercury Mountaineer. That thing had a cam in block V8 attached to a 4 speed slushbox and got 22 on the highway. 25 years of progress and nothing has improved on the economy front.
The company as a whole just seems like a PITA to deal with. Beyond Ford corporate hiking prices up to laughable numbers, the local dealers are sketchy as hell too.
I feel good not going through with it.
I say this as someone who's owned a number of Fords - I have nothing but bad things to say about modern Ford. It will be a long time if I ever consider buying another one of their products.
Whats worse is that its still the value proposition king due to general inflation being terrible. At least until other automakers get in the (actually) small pickup game
I might be out of the loop but aren’t they still producing extremely limited quantities and thus keeping prices high so they can keep making F150s for the profit margins?
Might depend on where you live in the U.S., but probably not anymore if at all. In a 50-mile radius where I live in Los Angeles, California, there are 801 brand new Ford Maverick available, and at 400 of them have the hybrid drivetrain and 385 are gasoline only and even the hybrids have small discounts on some them. There isn't a shortage of Mavericks near where my area.
They're producing about all the plant can kick out, it shares space with the Bronco Sport.
Right now the only un-used Ford plants would be Oakville (which might eventually build some EV) and extra space at Flat Rock (which builds the Mustang and handles other projects from time to time - the Continental was the last non-Mustang car built there).
I had to direct order my hybrid from Ford (twice!). The 2022 took over a year to complete, and I bought something else. Regretted it and ordered a 2024, and it took about 9 months and will be 2 years in April. The price was about $27k for the mid-trim. Where people got crazy was the insane dealer markup and flippers charging up to $10k over. It was the only car I bought that was worth more when I drove it off the lot!
Depends on the trim. The hybrids yes. The regular 2.0 Ecoboost you can find on dealer lots. If you want your specs built they're only about 6 weeks out.
Someone on the internet claims they now what 99% of people need. Doesn't need to do any research, need any formal education, they just "know". Sounds like a redditor.
Says you? I wish my bed was 6 foot. I also wish it was wide enough to lay a sheet of plywood don flat.
BOF vs unibody? I am mixed. I have done things to a BOF I would not do to a unibody. Not the current truck, but when I have owned old beaters. Part of the problem with current trucks is plastic bumpers. You can't run them into things like you could metal ones.
Correct, the guy with an 8' bed is saying that it's overkill for the majority of buyers.
FWIW, the new Ranger does have a slightly wider bed to fit 4' plywood.
My local dealers are putting $5k markups on the new AWD hybrid models.
The Lariats are listed at $45k right now, which is genuinely such a bummer. I’d have loved one.
I wanted to love the Maverick. But it turned out, even when the base price was $20K, that if you wanted 4WD and adaptive cruise control, it's a $35K car instead of $20K.
Now I see the base price is $26K and getting ACC brings it up to about $40K.
At that price it's just not competitive.
The tank on the Mav is comically small, but in non-freezing weather, I get well over 400 miles- best tank was \~630. Our 2008 Sequioa with just over 26 gallons will only do around 340-350. 13mpg for life, lol
yea i loved my yukon, hard to beat for moving stuff and camping. but yea that 15mpg on a good day was really getting to me. I do wish the maverick had a bigger tank but Ive seen 450 miles to empty estimate and i dont drive it like a grandma, either.
It's less about the ground clearance (though I'm sure that's how some dudes will justify it) and more about the height. Higher seats are easier to get into, especially for older people, and people like sitting higher up in traffic.
Yeah so do I.
An ignorant rich kid in a lifted Jeep backed into my Miata in a parking lot because he couldn't see me through his rear view. He just "assumed" the frantic beeping going on for about 15 seconds must have been coming from somewhere else in the parking lot.
No, certain demographics do. The demographic that can afford vehicles that aren't fuel efficient aren't buying econoboxes with tiny engines. Fuel inefficient vehicles tend to be expensive as they're comparatively inefficient due to higher power, larger size, more amenities.
C8 is the example. Huge engineering budget into just sound. Porsche spends a ton of money on sound engineering. The demographic making the purchase isn't the same.
What if I told you that there are cars that aren't aimed at that demographic yet represent huge sales dollar wise? I bet you wouldn't believe it. These manufacturers must be so dumb making things like the Escalade V, G Wagen, Z06, GT3RS.
Example: X5 has a ~16% profit margin for BMW while budget oriented vehicles are only in the 3-4% range for manufacturers like Hyundai/Kia.
Agreed, but the comments above were all referring to what americans as a whole want in general. All the cars you list are niche relative to a Rav4 or CR-V.
For most people, for their dollar first is utility, then fuel economy, then tech/features/materials/refinement/etc., then sound.
Yea but the Rav 4 still fell in 3rd behind the Ford F trucks and the Silverado. Granted a lot of those are fleet sales to companies and the government, big there's definitely a huge chunk that are private.
I definitely feel like men by large just moved on from sports cars to big pickups.
Profit per segment matters. If 1 tahoe is 10 trax in profit and the trax only outsells the Tahoe 2 to 1 then the trax isn’t even a thought for the company other than filling a segment for fuel economy regs to sell the larger more profitable cars.
The market wants the more profitable vehicles, but people can’t afford them.
They absolutely don't, which is why auto journalists complain about buzzy, unrefined turbo 4s that manufacturers keep putting in damn near everything, which sell really really well.
...Yes, that's my point.
I'm agreeing with you.
The general public doesn't care about sound, which is why the turbo 4s that journalists complain about sell well. Because the general public is what matters.
People find it easier to get into higher seats, especially older people. It's easier on the knees and hips.
Also, speed dips and steep driveways make people anxious (though one could argue that that's the point of speed dips).
That's because they're basically the same thing as a mid-size sedan. Often even on the same chassis. They're just a little taller (and so catch a little more air resistance).
My X3 even basically drives like a sedan, but with a little more comfortable posture and cargo space.
Compact crossovers are also shorter in overall length than their midsize sedan alternatives. So they can more easily fit in a parallel parking space or a garage.
I mean, you wouldn't want to use it as your first choice on a track or anything, but for day to day driving, having the same suspension and tires and chassis makes it pretty similar.
We are at the fun stage of EVs where you can buy electric guzzlers getting under 2 miles/kw. So as low a line 12mpg equivalent, or worse on the highway, if you charge the stupid way.
Fast, heavy, and unfathomably inefficient. Like straight up worse than their ICE version.
Are you serious? Americans want bigger vehicles that are ALSO fuel efficient. A mom rather drive a Hybrid Toyota Highlander getting \~35mpg instead of driving a Corolla hybrid getting \~50mpg
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Why do they need to be mutually exclusive? Seems like the market is saying “give us large/tall vehicles that are more fuel efficient.”
That demand means that you can now buy a hybrid pickup truck. I bought one. I’m getting around 24 mpg, but can tow my toys around, get around off road, haul my kayaks and camping gear, etc. If they make one that’s even more efficient, I’ll buy that, too.
Actually I see most people in America driving cars like Hondas, Toyotas, Kias, Hyundais, etc. An American car is usually the last thing they consider buying. If Chinese vehicles were allowed here they'd be selling like hotcakes because of how cheap they are.
Ford F150 is the most popular vehicle every year...
Less than a quarter of new car sells are sedans.
Your anecdotal experience is different from how the majority of the US is then.
Not many trucks and even then Fseries vehicles have a lot of fleet purchases. I'm pretty sure sedans outsell pure trucks actually. It's the SUV and crossovers that really dominate.
So no. Americans do not want trucks. They want SUVs
> I'm pretty sure sedans outsell pure trucks actually
Why would you say something like this? People saying they're "pretty sure" about something they obviously made no effort to verify and are completely wrong about, while writing on the internet, where it takes single digit seconds to verify something... god this drives me crazy.
F series. Not f-150. There are everything from EVs to tow trucks in this lineup.
Rav4 is in the top 3. Not nearly as much variety there.
Just things to consider.
If they’re publishing f-150 sales independently that’s news to me and I’d love to see a source.
There’s still a substantial number of fleet sales to adjust for as well to get to a number actually comparable with something like a Rav4.
Ford doesn't, but there are third parties that do, based on registration data. Generally, it's a split of 2/3 150's, 1/3 SD.
Fleet sales are harder to track, but that applies to every car.
> I doubt the f-150 is even like 5% of total sales
Eerily close! Of the 15.85 million cars sold in the US last year, 765K were F-Series, or 4.8%. That's all F-Series through 600, not just F-150.
> Ford F150 is the most popular vehicle every year...
because there's only a couple of trucks to choose from, whereas you have much more options to choose from when buying a car or a SUV.
Crossovers + SUVs are 55% of new car market.
Trucks are less than 20%.
Thats why the cafe mandate is ineffective and sometimes counterproductive. If they make all cars more efficient, people just buy bigger cars. In fact the requirements created a loophole for "trucks" that arguably created the whole SUV craze.
If you want people to use less gas, make it note expensive(tax). Thats all you have to do. No new technology or added cost needed,
They also want the largest cars to keep getting better fuel economy. That doesn’t seem that hard to figure out. People don’t want giant SUVs that get 8 mpg. They want giant SUVs that get 28 mpg.
What large cars have poor fuel economy? The base f150 gets like 25, and the f250 with a 7.3 liter engine will do 18 on the highway. Hemi challenger will do like 23 on the highway.
Sure you can get better mpg in an accord or whatever, but its not THAT much better.
It also cannot tow or haul anything. If you are living in an apartment downtown that isn't a big deal. Also if you are not in a profession that requires you to be onsite in all weather.
Live in the midwest and suddenly there are a lot of needs for towing/hauling.
The majority of Americans live in urban areas, and even among those that don't, a tiny percentage are towing/hauling enough to make trucks necessary. They're lifestyle vehicles.
I live in an urban area aka a suburb. I live in the midwest. The people claiming that a tiny percentage are towing/hauling have never priced out the cost of a truck rental.
6 days a week during winter/bad weather my truck is driven a little around town with an empty bed. Some mouthbreather who has never met me will claim I have no use for it. I spent Saturday hauling a 12 inch compound sliding saw, lumber, tools, and a ladder 3.5 hours down to arkansas and then back. Saturday, I will make that same trek again. I have used it to do 18 hour roadtrips to stuff one or more arcade games in my bed. I have had people claim I have no use for a mid size truck that a maverick will do. I've hauled max loads on 10 hour trips multiple times with this truck. I have to haul my cars.
That is me. I can relay the stories of my friends and neighbors, but you get the point. Reddit is filled with people who run their mouth about things they have no clue about. They see a truck with an empty bed and assume the owner has 0 use for it. Economically speaking unless you don't have a need to rent a truck more than once or twice a year, its cheaper to own a truck. It is also why truck owners are popular with their friends. Far cheaper to bribe someone with gas money and a six pack than to pop over to Penske.
Facts don't care about your anecdotes.
I'm not saying nobody uses their trucks the way they're intended, or that everyone should sell their SUVs and trucks and buy a Miata. But [a decade of surveys of F-150 owners](https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history) shows that only 7% of them regularly use their trucks for towing, and almost 2/3
"rarely" or "never" tow anything.
These are the vehicles that cause 2-4x more damage to roads than an average car and are responsible for the doubling of pedestrian deaths since 2009.
Oh no, they do 2-4x more damage to roads. How much damage are semi's doing again? Why are we paying for roads if we can't use them for risk of damage? Tbh who the fuck cares?
As for your "fact". You pull one survey, being that survey's cannot be biased in any way. That there is no way to possible skew results to prove the point you wanted. That and depending on where/when you perform a survey you can sway results.
You hate trucks, congratulations. Tomorrow when you get up the earth will still be spinning and people will still be using their trucks.
> As for your "fact". You pull one survey, being that survey's cannot be biased in any way. That there is no way to possible skew results to prove the point you wanted. That and depending on where/when you perform a survey you can sway results.
Not that I'm against/with you here, but do you have a better survey to provide?
[https://www.fortunebusinessinsights.com/pickup-truck-market-105070](https://www.fortunebusinessinsights.com/pickup-truck-market-105070)
An analysis, but interesting as lifestyle isn't driving the increase in the us, but instead off roading. Globally e-commerce is driving sales.
What is difficult is there aren't much in the way of surveys. You can't even get a breakdown of fleet sales vs commercial. You can't get a notion of how many trucks are owned by large businesses, personal, and small businesses. What you do get is that one survey he posted, over and over again. It made headlines when it came out. The problem is, it is a single survey and data can be skewed.
Manufacturer's I have no doubt have done such survey's. The knowledge being kept since releasing it would help their competition.
This isn't to say there are pavement princesses out there. I am just sick of being told by total strangers what i need. I'd love something smaller. Something with better fuel efficiency. I am bumping up against the limits of my mid size truck as it is. I never thought there would come a time that I would be limited by it. I am now having to pay for work that I would happily diy, but can't because I can't tow enough weight.
It's 21 for the base f150 and 31 for base Camry combined mpg.
Hybrid f150 is 25 mpg. Hybrid Camry is 51mpg combined mpg.
So that's still a 50% fuel efficiency increase at the base level. While a 100% increase at the hybrid level. I would say that's significant. Big enough to where it should make a difference if it's something you say you care about.
My v6 accord is rated for 34 on the highway, and i regularly see 36 or 37. The current Accord Hybrid is rated for 44 on the highway. So nearly double what you're citing.
Personally, I think that is THAT much better.
They want to buy huge, powerful trucks and SUVs, and they want the government to mandate that they all get 100 mpg so they save on fuel. I don't know what is so difficult to understand...
the survey question versus the headline seems misleading. it doesnt ask if people would switch to a smaller, less powerful car to get better fuel economy.
While I don't complain about fuel prices, I would kill for a PHEV Crew cab Silverado with 10-12k towing and 2k payload. That would check every box for me. If/when this becomes available I fully anticipate it to be $$$$ and thus hard to justify new.
Americans want economical cars like sedans, but they have skyrocketed in price because CAFE standards punish small cars more than bigger cars when they dont meet MPG targets because of their size. Automakers make less profits on small cars due to paying the CAFE fees for not meeting MPGs.
This is the right answer. It's not necessarily that sedans aren't in demand, it's that aggressive CAFE targets for smaller vehicles make it easier for automakers to just stop selling smaller vehicles and build larger more expensive vehicles.
> Americans want economical cars like sedans,
They want economical cars, but I'm not so sure they want sedans specifically. Most of the time they go for a compact or even subcompact CUV. Even back when sedans were part of everyone's lineup.
Honestly it makes sense. Sedans weren't that much cheaper than small crossovers. And now due to the CAFE rules and fines, a Camry is the same price as a Rav4z
I'd take the Camry over the Rav4 though, I don't get why people want these massive cars when they're just mallcrawlers and commuter cars most of the time.
> I don't get why people want these massive cars when they're just mallcrawlers and commuter cars most of the time. They're big and unwieldy, harder to stop and accelerate, more difficult to park.
Have you...actually driven a RAV4 or other compact CUV? They're not monstrous.
I have. I guess I just prefer low slung cars. Higher center of gravity makes me nervous. I've driven a Compass and it feels chunky to me, and I don't like the higher ride height. Feels like it'll tip over if you turn too hard. A friend of mine also has a Rav4 I've ridden in quite a bit and I feel the same way.
They're definitely comfortable, I'll give you that. But I guess I've driven too many coupes and sedans to like how CUVs and SUVs feel. I'd only buy them if I had enough kids to necessitate owning such a large vehicle, and I wouldn't enjoy the drive. However, if we Americans actually enjoyed stationwagons again, the Europeans have fantastic sport wagons that I'd drive in a heartbeat over a CUV or SUV and *definitely* over a minivan lol
As more time goes on I realize most people just really don't think about cars the same way I do, and it's not a bad thing, and I'm not better for thinking the way I do either.
Tbh I drive sedans because coupes are entirely impractical for daily driving. If they had a second set of doors and useable trunk space...well....you'd have a sedan haha
I thought about driving hatchbacks for the shorter wheelbase (like a Golf), but they have abysmal trunk space if you don't fold the seats down, whereas a Jetta like mine has the same engine, similar speed, but comfortable back seats and a surprisingly large trunk that has been more than enough for 99% of my daily driving needs.
Anything larger than can fit in my trunk can be solved with a simple moving truck rental or delivery to my home, both of which are much cheaper in the short term and long run than a CUV or SUV payment.
That's just me though, I think I'm starting to realize I'm dying alone on this hill and I might as well sit down and enjoy the view instead of argue any more about it.
> They're definitely comfortable, I'll give you that. But I guess I've driven too many coupes and sedans to like how CUVs and SUVs feel.
I've been driving sedans for about 15 years and whenever I test a CUV with "good handling" I'm astonished by how bad it is. I've yet to find one that doesn't feel floaty and a just gummy to drive.
I swear anytime someone says a CUV is "sporty" there's just no way they've actually driven a sporty vehicle, and if they did they didn't drive it the way it was meant to be driven
Ok, I'll just go to my local Ford dealer and get a Focus. What's that? They killed it? Ok. Maybe they have a Fiesta. Oh, that's dead too. Fine, I'll take a sedan. Oh wait, those are all dead as well.
I would totally buy a Toyota Corolla Hatchback Hybrid, but they are not offered in the USA. I saw tons of them in Australia last year and inquired about it when I got back only to be told by the local dealership that there were no hatchback options due to some regulations.
Thats because automakers spent decades marketing SUVs because it allowed them to make more money. People didn't suddenly require 4wd and ground clearance in the 90s.
The *only* things stopping me from buying a PHEV are
1. My two cars are already paid off
2. Dealerships
3. The Prius PHEV *still* doesn’t come in yellow here
You have to have a compliance letter to import a vehicle from Canada to US that basically says yeah this vehicle meets the same EPA rules.
[Toyota stopped handing them out.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Toyota/s/ZirlbKI6ih)
Here’s an old cars post with some commenters describing the process. [https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/s/xpZ3wSBAWs](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/s/xpZ3wSBAWs)
It’s not impossible for identical models, just annoying and you gotta pay some fees.
any car imported from outside the US that *doesn’t meet US safety and emissions standards*
the vast majority of Canadian market vehicles do, and you can pay an auto importer a few hundred/thousand dollars to handle all the paperwork for a Canadian car, to the point that it’s sometimes even profitable to do so when the USD/CAD conversion rate changes
some Mexican market cars are like this as well, for example Toyota Land Cruisers sold new in Mexico came with US DOT and CARB stickers but came with a few different interior options than the US market ones, but they are legally importable
I have heard of people moving from Canada to US and Toyota stopped handing out the forms a few years ago. So people have been forced to sell their vehicle.
The Volt is better than the Prius by almost every metric.
1. Volt has longer electric range.
2. Volt has a faster 0-60 time.
3. Volt has faster charging speed.
4. Volt is older and thus cheaper.
5. Volt has AA / CarPlay, which still gets modern updates.
6. Volt has adaptive cruise and lane keep assist.
The Prius only wins by being Toyota and MPG when you don't use electricity. The primary reason to choose the Prius is you didn't know the Volt existed.
It's had some common problems but nothing that crazy. The complaints for me would be the dealerships (none of them seem to be able to do a simple oil change without overfilling it) and Toyota as a corporation.
*The Prius PHEV still doesn’t come in yellow here*
Literally, you will be mistaken for a taxi constantly.
[https://toyotacanada.scene7.com/is/image/toyotacanada/2024\_Toyota\_Prius?$Media-Large$](https://toyotacanada.scene7.com/is/image/toyotacanada/2024_Toyota_Prius?$Media-Large$)
It's a good idea, but wouldn't affect efficiency very much aside from those little FWD pickups from South America (which probably can't meet safety regs anyway).
Not so sure about that - if there are news articles out there about American farmers seeking out ancient kei trucks because they're legal to drive on the street, that must mean there's enough demand there for people to notice. Open up the flood gates, and I'm sure small trucks that are out there in Japan and SEA markets would gain some traction here and drive US manufacturers to make them, as well.
I'm more saying that a lot of the global mid-size trucks currently kept out by the Chicken Tax aren't appreciably more efficient than their US counterparts when equipped with gas engines, especially considering they'd have to be modified for US emissions and (possibly) safety regs before they could come here, tariff or no tariff.
I will also say as a farmer that while it is true some of us would like a street-legal kei truck, most are more easily served by a SxS and/or beater 30-year-old pickup.
I understand your point 100%, but part of the issue is a lack of competition. Due to the chicken tax making any competitor manufactured abroad prohibitively expensive, it precludes customers from even having a choice - and when you don't have a choice, you're forced into the existing options. It's somewhat being stuck in a negative feedback loop at that point. However, the chicken tax isn't the only example of where we're failing in this regard - the 25 year import rule also causes issues with this.
With respect to the SxS point, I guess that's true...but if we had true parity in the market, you'd be buying a brand new kei truck for ~$10,000, not $7,000 for a 25 year old one. When SxS manufacturers have jacked the price up into that same range recently, wouldn't it make more sense to have a real truck like a kei truck that's suited to on-highway driving, rather than a tarted up ATV? Or are the lines bleeding enough now that it doesn't matter?
I call bs. Fuel standards have gotten out of control. Ya I mean everyone would love to have a V8 with a million hp and 100mpgs but that's not feasible lol. There's a happy medium and the way the last admin was basically forcing everyone into EVs and automake to toss expensive 4cyl engines for 3 ton bricks is a load of crap. Using the EPA to push that agenda was also shady and a waste of tax payer money
My truck is 10 years old with a V8. Yes it doesn't have as much power as Ford's EcoScam or the explosive tundra engine. But it's reliable and gets the same if not better mpgs than these turbo trash engines. My V8 gets better mpgs than the 4cyl in the midsize vehicles too. Ya the instant torque is great but you have to get into the torque to make the turds move. Where as the V8 it's effortless when not towing
My full size sedan with a V6 gets up to 34mpgs on the highway... Most of the rentals I've had are all 4cyl eek out about the same mpgs. They drive like trash and the engines just sound awful. I'm more than happy to sacrifice a few mpgs for a decent vehicle with a solid powertrain. And most 4cyls have a terrible overall powertrain experience...
I realize a CUV with a 4cyl are rated at like 35mpgs. Idk how anyone gets that bc out of all the CUV turds I've had they have been lucky to break 30mpgs. Only once a base model Kia Sportage got 36mpgs I was shocked but I hated the seats it was also fwd vs AWD which I'm aware kills mpgs. I had the same model w AWD as a rental and that got like 26mpgs that's a huge change
I feel like this is probably more related to price hikes in gas over the last few years more than anything. Because the best selling vehicles in the US for decades have been pick up trucks which often get the worst fuel economy. If American could have it their way they would have cheap gas so they can drive the biggest engines they possibly can. But if gas isn't gonna be cheap THEN they'll start caring about fuel economy
I find that very hard to believe. With a small polling sample and phrasing the question in a way that glorifies saving the environment and not mentioning the negative impacts on vehicles, THEN maybe it makes sense.
Yea, it's super green to burn 5% less fuel, but who cares if you burn through LCD screens, modules, wiring harnesses, engines, turbos, injectors, etc. It's not like these are things that were produced in factories that have pollution that will ultimately be scrapped and thrown away in a landfill because no one is actually doing recycling.
And why would we keep making parts for the cars after ten years? No one will finance a car over ten years old so that sounds like a personal problem. Just get less poor.
A fucking men. Preach, dude. This is all a money game. If it weren't, then the Chicken Tax on Japan would have ended years ago. No one gets it. Cars fuel economy isn't the problem. I love my RSX, but we all know that the real answer is more public transit. Obviously, it won't work for everyone, but the majority of the population lives in dense hubs. Some high-speed rail from big cities to big cities would curb emissions way more than any of the emissions laws they've passed in the past 10+ years.
We can't keep optimizing for one goal at the expense of everything else in the design. It just produces shit that breaks. And you're right. Where do these new cars go when they have 100,000 miles and are unfixable? The dump.
Forcing private companies to meet environmental regulations has caused a number of reliability issues with many vehicles across multiple manufacturers. Even Toyota has had to give up its mass produced, legendary V6 in favor of turbo 4 cylinders, despite already having amazing hybrid options. Why are 5000 pound SUVs being powered by engines that were only found in economy sized cars? You think that doesn't have drawbacks?
These regulations create impassable deadlines and companies are forced to create compliant powertrains for the masses that have not done enough testing or gone through enough refinement.
Many of these aren't just powerplant swaps but also cause many other major components of vehicles to change, like the tranmission. Chevy is a big manufacturer who is having issues with their tranmissions working with their new eco friendly power plants. Why? Because they had to be rushed to market.
I don’t buy that all. Plenty of companies meet the deadlines without major problems. Also most manufactures have teething issues with new drive trains. Both ford and gm have been using the same 10 speed trans for years now. If gm can’t make it work right that’s on them. It works great in my f150 hybrid that is more powerful, more feature rich, and more practical than the ice v8.
So because you like your hybrid, that means it's okay for the government to force it on everyone? Because yours works okay, that must mean every vehicle on the road with new systems in them that were forced on them, must all be problem free? Clearly you don't understand vehicles enough to even have a valid opinion on them.
You don't have to like a free market but to pretend its problem free when the government forces regulations that change so much is just absurd.
So bc you don’t like hybrids and don’t care about the environment, the govt should not do anything to mitigate the damage being done? See I can also be hyperbolic. GM is also having lots of failures with newer LS motors btw. You know cars wouldn’t even have seatbelts without govt regulation? You’re so quick to get heated and attack me it’s laughable. You just sound like a loud mouth asshole but you drive a Camaro so that tracks.
LS has been dead for 8 years.
Most of the failures on the new v8s are emissions related, famously AFM was a big drawback. People routinely delete it because it fails and get less than 1mpg difference on the highway. Thousands of dollars for the consumer for rounding errors worth of real world results.
The now dead 4 cyl 1500 was epa rated 1mpg better than the v8. But nearly everyone got worse mpg real world. A truck that wouldn’t exist without backwards regulations and forcing minimum sizes by way of CAFE standards.
Seatbelts would be standard by way of public education and no one buying a car without them, entirely a personal choice.
“ yo don’t care about the environment”
That’s driving your whole argument so the rest you say will be predictable.
You know the US passenger cars make up 2.5% of global carbon dioxide production? The speed with which we transition that 2.5 to electric, whether it be 2035 or 2050 or 2065 will have no significant effect on global warming or climate change or whatever you prefer we call it.
You know what they say about assumptions...
I think hybrids are great. I have driven plenty and they definitely have a place.
GM doesn't even use standard LS motors anymore. Of course there will be failures anyway, that is a given. You think if the government said "HEY YOU HAVE TO REDESIGN THAT AND PUT IT IN MOST VEHILCES IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS" It would do any better?
I never said government regulation was flat out a bad thing, I said it has drawbacks, and mentioned a few. Then you got butthurt and said "but muh hybrid!" like that had anything to do with what I was talking about.
For a username with "educational" in it, you come off extremely uneducated. If you want to call me a "loud mouth asshole" because you don't even understand basic points of my argument and have to resort to ad hominem attacks, go for it.
lol. They’re given more than “a couple years.” You first attacked me saying I know nothing about cars and you get “butthurt” about getting insulted back. You just can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you. The industry will not move forward without govt pushing.
You ignored my entire point about the drawbacks by using your F150 as an example, which didn't have anything to do with what I said. You mentioned the 10 speed, which is not in the list of transmissions I was referring to. Your ignorance spoke for itself, I simply called it out. If that's "attacking you" then you probably shouldn't be on the internet.
You are welcome to disagree with me, I said that already. The problem is you completely ignored the drawbacks I mentioned simply bexiase you don't understand them or don't like them. Your opinion doesn't make those drawbacks any less real. If you have any real and valid points to make, feel free to do that. If you want to just pretend to be a victim and not address any of my points, then quit wasting my time.
You ado they’re having to use smaller power plans and these create huge drawbacks. I have a clear example of one that beats the v8 in every metric. Your response was to say I know nothing about cars. Hell the new amg 4 popper beats the old v8 in every metric but sound which is subjective. I have 25+ years of working on and selling cars as a hobby but I’m apparently unfamiliar with the transmission you’re referencing so I’m an idiot that knows nothing about cars according to you even though I clearly was talking about the shared 10 spd.
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I have a 2001 Prius. The battery weighs less than me, and I weigh 120 lb. The "transmission" is a single planetary gear set and two big torquey electric motors. The larger of the two (the one that actually moves the vehicle down the road) makes 45 horsepower and an astonishing (for its power rating) 258 lb-ft of torque. 258!
No clutch, no bands, no torque converter, no shift forks, no synchros, no starter, no alternator, no pressure switches, no tiny hydraulic passages to clog up (looking at you, Honda 5AT). Super reliable, instantaneous off-the-line torque, and mechanically way simpler than any other automatic or even manual transmission.
For example, for 4 passenger vehicles: Big tax on v8. Medium tax on v6. No tax on L4 or less than 250hp L4. Done.
Also, pricier gas. Encourage people to buy vehicle bases on fuel consumption.
I hate this stupid ass statement. Not ALL of America voted for him. Only about half of the total voting population in the US voted last election, and he won less than 50% of those votes.
Stop implying every American voted for him, it's a stupid statement to make.
Absolutely not a fan of the current administration, but obviously fuel economy is not the driving issue for politicians and wanting to vote for someone.
That’s just lovely. Any policy initiatives have about a 30% chance of being enacted regardless of public opinion about it being overwhelmingly positive or negative. You need to poll the 8 people with a gazillion dollars how they feel about it to get the likelihood of anything being done about a policy.
I try to get my cars to last as long as possible. So this may be just me as I know that sentiment is already a rarity.
The simpler the better. Easier and cheaper to get fixed. I just want a simple direct injection engine. No turbo. No hybrid. Traditional automatic transmission. None of that weird one cylinder turning off so an inline 4 runs on 3 at highway speeds.
Just a simple gas engine. And if that means that highway mpg tops out at about 35-37. That's perfect as far as I'm concerned.
Either burning hydrocarbons contributes to climate change and our health negatively, or it doesn’t. If it does, we should all be working toward reducing our fuel burning however we can. If it does not meaningfully contribute to those things, then why, other than security of natural resources (a sovereignty issue), should the government impose any such limits?
There is a theoretical efficiency limit that actual efficiency should be measured against.
At some point, efficiency is in your right foot and the car you chose to buy.
F-150 has been the top selling vehicle in Canada for 15 consecutive years.
Also, in Canada 86% of new vehicles sales in 2024 were trucks and SUV's. I believe that is more than the US.
Fuel efficiency has improved tremendously over the last 20 years. I believe we are improving fuel economy by a little over 1% year over year for decades.
Humans want what they want and they keep making it better.
It's OK to want a big truck AND better fuel economy.
Everyone thinks the 3rd party dealerships are the worst, and then you see how awful the waits are to get a Tesla serviced. It’s not just the having the techs get time or space in the shop. It’s the parts.
3rd party dealers aid in footing the bill for both the parts and the storage for them. That’s not cheap to do nation wide. It drastically shortens repair times. Or there’s the option of waiting weeks for your car to get repaired thanks to waiting on 1 part that takes days/weeks to show up.
that and places to trade your car in and/or get it worked on. Really just get rid of the sales division, keep a finance crew on that'll also value trade-ins and the rest is maintenance.
Selling used cars will always require dealerships (unless everyone was required by law to sell their cars privately, which would kind of suck). But yeah, a sales division would be necessary... but not for cars from the factory.
Going to be on americans to reject buying any cars that don't improve efficiency, just like americans jobs to not to business with any company or individuals who supports the fascists
If this were even remotely true, Americans would call for the end of exemptions for their lifted trucks and 3-row SUVs carrying one kid. They'd be buying smaller vehicles and demanding OEMs invest in new platforms for cars over SUVs.
I'm not calling them the same. I'm saying they are making this claim about "keeping" with progress, but the supposed progressed has constantly been putting a thumb on the scale to advantage less efficient vehicles. They've made it harder on a full-size sedan than an enormously wasteful brodozer.
Are we going to get there with 1.0 liter turbos with wet belts that are cranked up to 11 so that the car can make 120hp and do 0-60 in 10 seconds with their CVTs? Because those cars suck.
Honestly, who gives a damn what Americans want? Seriously though, what policies that Americans want actually get enacted? Virtually none, we should have more reports about what Corporations want so Americans can prepare their households.
Diminishing returns and all of that, there's a point where there just isn't much more you can do without making engines exhorbitantly expensive or complex.
I genuinely think the ICE will never die, it will just coexist with EVs (there's nothing particularly wrong with keeping the ICE around, for non commercial users)
Climate change is the big driver whether you understand it or not. We just have entrenched interests in this country that want to keep burning fuel forever, but that won't be an option by the end of next decade. The fact that insurance costs from disasters that are exacerbated by climate change are already driving policy cancellations across entire areas of the country is a major red flag. You might not care about climate change, but insurance companies fully understand it, and that will affect car insurance rates.
The sooner we get rid of gas vehicles, the better. It's just going to take lots of investments to transform our grid to handle it.
> Climate change is the big driver whether you understand it or not
I'm only skimming comments, but just as feedback, when I read this sentence, I ignored/discounted everything else you had to say.
Consumers are the ones that can't afford an ICE phase out, and private owned vehicles are definitely less of a priority than commercial vehicles.
It's possible to fight climate change and keep private ICE around.
I mean, did we all forget the GWB years? Generally speaking, gas is cheaper than it's been since I was a child (the 90s).
Then again, I don't drive a large vehicle that gets ~15mpg so I don't cry when I have to buy a tank of gas.
> gas is cheaper than it's been since I was a child
moving to the US from a country where gas is much more expensive and average income is lower is awesome. I used to pay 20 dollars per gallon (if you account for income difference). I live in California now, where gas is supposedly expensive, but I still feel like it's free.
The sad thing is it should never have been that cheap for us. Taxpayers are paying to subsidize the oil industry. The rich get richer, and we get someone cheaper gas.
> Taxpayers are paying to subsidize the oil industry
This math only works out if you create a huge list of things that are not direct costs and then make up dollar values for them and consider them "unpaid". Otherwise, no.
The environmental costs of gasoline should be what pays for all of our natural disaster insurance. $200 billion dollar hurricane? Take it out of the gas tax fund. That would be a quick way to shift everyone off gasoline quickly.
in order to do that, lets reduce the atrocious emissions and safety requirements. there's a reason why some early 90s Honda's got damn near 90mpg. no airbags, 4 banger with a 5 speed, not loaded down with computers in the name of safety, weighing in at less that 1800lbs.
I just hope one day Economy class cars make a come back. Current cars have a whole lot of stuff in them totally useless to me and I don't want to pay for them.
I definitely don't, especially by making cars more complex with stupid things like stop/start and cylinder deactivation. I doubt these add much to the fuel mileage but they will with the repair bill. Get rid of over stressed turbo 4 cylinder engines and go back to V6 engines. Hybrids will subtract all of your fuel savings when they require repairs or replacement of the battery.
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That 2/3 are ignorant. If they knew the compromises in quality, reliability and longevity that are being made to meet Cafe standards they would change their minds.
This study is wildly inaccurate. Just like any poll where you don’t get all the facts represented I. The poll questions.
The question didn’t ask them , do you want better fuel economy if it will cost you disproportionately more for the car, than you would save based on the better fuel economy.
What people really want is to spend less money. They think that happens by getting better fuel economy….but really the it just drives the cost of the vehicle up even more. Fuel regulation is good, but there is a diminishing return.
I agree with needing to further assess the methodology, but vehicle prices have largely remained commensurate with inflation while becoming leagues safer and more efficient. Why does efficiency have to mean increased pricing?
Because regulation equates to investment which leads to price to consumer. I am in this industry buying and designing (use based) vehicles for over 25 years. This is indisputable. In addition, while inflation and vehicle price do generally follow each other. Every time a significant piece of emissions, safety, or fuel economy regulation is implemented it disproportionally impacts price.
The worst thing about regulation is it negatively impacts startups (throwing out unicorn tech investment - ie. electric car companies) and smaller companies.
And they vote for the guy that’s rolling all that shit back so nobody gives a fuck what they want, they should’ve thought of that before heading to the polls last November so we all get to live with their bad choices
I'm cool with fuel economy levels staying flat if we could get the price of vehicles down across the board. New cars are just so dang expensive, especially when dealers and manufacturers only build or stock high end versions of their vehicles, pushing average MSRPs higher with each production year.
China now makes affordable EV's, but those will be blocked entirely from reaching the USA. Even a 100% tariff on them would be cheaper than some other cars.
I don't want an EV. EV infrastructure isn't sufficient for mass adoption and probably won't be for a long time, at least here in the US. EVs might work well in China, but the US is different.
I have had an EV for 6 years. As long as you can charge at home, there aren't any major issues. Going to Big Bend national Park is the only remote concern I have since they don't have a fast charger nearby, but that's it. You have to charge overnight out there, but otherwise I have never had any major issues, or encountered lines to charge.
Only once have I encountered a charger offline, and that was from a tornado that took out the power infrastructure. I still have never ran out of battery, and it only costs $8 to fully charge my 340hp model 3 which gets 200 miles of highway range at 80mph. Newer models increase the range by almost 50%.
Large numbers of people cannot charge at home though. If you rent and have a dedicated parking area you might get charging but you have no control over that, and plenty of people street park outside their apartments. City drivers are in the best locations for EVs too, but the infrastructure just isn't there yet for mass adoption.
I just want the government to change it's entire approach to fuel economy.
Making a bunch of regulations in which the manufacturers find loopholes or change entire classifications of vehicles as a way to skip them is not working. De-regulating the industry and just allowing manufacturers to determine fuel economy targets also is not going to help either.
I think the closest we got to something that would have been actually worthwhile was the 1993 government-sponsored research program [Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_Generation_of_Vehicles) The whole purpose of this research program was to find a way to build a vehicle that was safe, affordable, and could get up to 80 MPG.
And people don't realize that the PNGV project scared the Japanese so much in the 90s that the Americans were going to be on the cusp of super-efficient vehicles that they started their own hybrid programs. Thus the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight were born.
And what happened to PNGV? Congress in 2000 cut the budget for it in half and then George W ended up scrapping the program in 2001. Notably right before they were supposed to have a production ready vehicle in 2003 under the agreement.
Absolutely the most sensible idea. No loopholes for bigger vehicles should incentivize production of more efficient cars/trucks across all vehicle classes.
Should cut down on people commuting alone in a 1/2 ton pickup to their job where the only thing they pick up is a mouse.
People say they want higher fuel economy, but the actions of many indicate they don't really want increased fuel economy if it means sacrificing the size, power, and vehicle types they prefer. The question would need to be phrased in a more realistic context for the study to have any meaning.
If you wanted to at least PRETEND to understand how polls work, you would be critiquing how they figured out who to poll.
But you were sleeping in math class because you thought it would never be useful, and now given your lack of comprehension skills you just ignore anything that doesn't match the narrative you've been told to follow.
> depends if it's 2k actual randos or if it's 2k picked out of Boulder, CO
which one do you think it is? How often Consumer Reports does surveys targeting specific cities, and then saying the data represents all of the US?
It's a Consumer Reports poll. So there likely is selection bias towards more practically-minded customers. That doesn't mean "two-thirds of Americans" is that far out of whatever the real ballpark is.
If its a fairly random sampling then yeah that's decently representative. I'm sure there is a margin of error of a few percent in there but 2000 randomly sampled motorists is a pretty good selection.
I want to have a choice. I want a V8 powered sports car with a manual transmission and a cheap EV/econobox for store runs. I also need a truck for hauling and towing.
I don't need the government to limit my choices.
Never once have I factored fuel economy into a car purchase. I truly don't care about it, in fact, all the "improvements" seem to come at the expense of long term reliability, and that's more important to me.
And the vast majority of them have zero idea about what that entails from an engineering standpoint. We are getting pretty deep into the asymptote of what is possible from internal combustion. Modern vehicles are insanely efficient, and it's going to become increasingly difficult and costly to improve upon it.
You'll save more money going from a 16mpg to 22mpg than you would from 30mpg to 50mpg. What we really need to do is hybridize the large vehicles. It's pretty much already happening.
I simply love the concept of vehicles like the Chrysler Aspen hybrid, the Tahoe hybrid, and the Sierra hybrid. Made an already torquey engine a torque monster, reduced senseless idling, and gained 30 to 40% in the city MPG tests. Plus, having a massive hulking SUV tooling around town silently is pretty neat.
I want all new cars to have increased fuel economy. I also want there to be a special tax deduction for keeping old gas-guzzlers on the road. The children of America need to know the sight of a 455 Bonneville sailing from gas station to gas station like Galactus. Save the past. Save the future. Yes I am kidding but also I would probably vote for this.
So much of the comments in here are from people who just hate trucks/suvs. Amusing to repeatedly see that people can't fathom that people with different lifestyles might have different needs.
why is it bullshit?
> Who financed it?
Consumer Reports. Which is weird that you don't know it, and yet you said that the study is bullshit. Didn't you read it?
All I'm saying is that I'm questioning the sample size, number of samples, and sample location and the manner in which questions were posed.
Furthermore, CR always had that "worship the daddy government" bias.
No they don't. Actions speak louder than survey answers.
1) Fuel guzzling cars/trucks FAR outsell economy cars.
2) The American electorate voted for the party that wants to ban electric cars.
GUESS WHAT AMERICA! If you stop BUYING THEM, they'll stop making them. Talk is cheap, put your money where your mouth is.
well i mean why wouldn't you?
the problem is that companies try to force this on luxury or sporty models to improve the overall avg of mpg across the fleet.
we dont need a $120k C63 AMG to have a 4 cylinder hybrid. Put a v8 back in it. if you can afford a car like that i doubt you even check a monthly gas bill.
Haven’t owned a diesel car that takes def but my def tank on my truck will go half an oil change interval. I dunno if that’s really that much hassle to dismiss an entire powertrain.
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