Porsche mulls new ICE Macan amid drop in brand's sales
Posted by KeyboardGunner@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 225 comments
Posted by KeyboardGunner@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 225 comments
natesully33@reddit
I wonder if it's EV aversion, or the price jump causing the sales drop. I figure Macan buyers can probably charge at home and aren't doing track days or distance towing, and it's not like the car had some amazing engine - but it would be interesting to see what is actually going on in buyer's minds. Most of these articles just speak of mysterious market conditions and not what is causing those conditions.
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
They priced it wrong. Thinking the 22 market was going to stay the same always. Macan buyers were always entry level into the brand. 80k plus options? Might as well get a Cayenne.
ArchiStanton@reddit
I disagree with macan being only entry level. The macan is a different car than the cayenne and different size, lots of people who want a sportier ride or live/park in cities could easily afford a cayenne but choose a macan. Hell Jack Dorsey drove a macan turbo and he surely could afford whatever he wanted
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
The Macan is entry level as in it’s the least expensive product they sell. Entry into the brand.
ArchiStanton@reddit
Nope. Your argument is that because it starts cheeper than the cayenne anybody who had enough money would buy a cayenne. That’s just patently false. It’s a different unique product for different buyers. People who can afford a 911 buy a 718. People who can buy a cayenne buy macans. Same argument why would anybody who can afford a house buy an apartment. Yet there are 80M apartments in NYC. Different products for different people
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
You are thinking too hard
jeanlDD@reddit
Old comment, but you genuinely have no understanding of the market or the context one would own these cars in.
I have the money for a Macan or a Cayenne, but I'd never in a million years want a car as large as the Cayenne. Living anywhere near a major city, a Cayenne is just fucking stupid.
Only reason I don't buy current Macan is that the exterior and tech of the ICE Macan is getting dated, and my alternative an IS 500 hasn't had an interior or major tech update in close to fifteen years. Don't want an EV.
Both companies have backed themselves into a bad corner forcing a move to EVs, less cylinders, more hybrids/turbos etc.
I could double my net worth and it wouldn't push me any closer to a Cayenne, it would just make me buy a GTS ICE tomorrow and sell it and upgrade whenever they update the ICE.
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
Lol. Are you responding to a comment 6 months old to tell me that the Macan isn’t an entry level P car then say that you are cross shopping a lexus sedan? Like what are you even talking about? The Macan is the cheapest car Porsche sells and is their entry into the brand. It’s barely even arguable. What are you even talking about?
jeanlDD@reddit
A base 718 is cheaper than a GTS Macan
Your point doesn’t even technically correct
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
A GT4RS is waaaaay more than a Macan GTS. If you are going to compare trims make sure they are the same level.
jeanlDD@reddit
Yeah you are genuinely grasping for straws, absolute fucking moron pretending that a GTS Macan and a GT4RS are comparable.
God you're so fucking stupid
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
What the fuck are you talking about? You compared a base 718 to a Macan GTS to make a point that the price wasn’t comparable. Like yeah no shit they aren’t even the same class. Compare trim to trim if you want to try to make a point. The GTS Macan is the highest trim and the GT4RS is the highest trim 718. So the missing brain cells is on your end sir. Still the argument being that a base Macan is the entry level Porsche still stands. Have a nice night asshole.
portomerf@reddit
Nah, it's true, when I think of an suv I would buy, if I had to choose between the two and they were the same price, I would choose the macan. The cayenne doesn't have a dct so it could tow more, I don't tow anything really heavy, just mountain bikes and other light loads. Plus the dct and smaller body gives a sportier feel which I like.
So regardless of price, I'd have the Macan. The cars are just very different, price or being entry level to the brand makes minimal difference
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
It’s only entry level as in it’s the least expensive way to get into the brand is all. Not saying they aren’t great cars.
jeanlDD@reddit
You’re not understanding that for most Porsche buyers, money isn’t the deciding factor between buying a Cayenne or buying a Macan. Hence the reference doesn’t make sense.
Also technically there are cheaper 718s than a top trim GTS Macan.
Bottom spec base Macan, sure the reference makes much more sense.
ArchiStanton@reddit
And you vice versa
longgamma@reddit
The average household income of Macan owners is some 400k usd. This was form an old Savagegeese review. I guess that has gone up even more now. It’s a second car for mommy to get her boba tea fix after dropping kids in school
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
No idea where that number came from. I know MB says their e class wagon buyers have the highest net worth of all their customers. I’d be very very surprised to know a Macan lessee has a 400k income. ICE Macan’s were commonly coming in at 65-70 msrp. If your HHI is 400 why choose the cheapest P car on offer? Maybe they broke down the Macan Turbo buyer’s income? Who knows.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
https://www.macanforum.com/threads/35-female-buyers-and-440-000-household-income-demographic-targets.181262/
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
So a few very rich people are bringing the median household income up. That stat is misleading. They should be calculating the average and removing outliers to get a better understanding of the mean. Instead they just grab the middle number between the highest and lowest HHI to get the median or middle. But it’s been a while since I took statistics.
FlipFlipFlippy@reddit
The median, as opposed to the mean, does eliminate outliers. It is the middle income amount, not the average.
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
We simply don’t know the data behind their statement. Both median and average can be fudged. But whatever.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
It’s hard to fudge median. And why would Porsche do that?
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
If PR was put in charge of the presentation that this info came from then my guess would be to get it out there how popular the brand is with rich people.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Yes it’s pr, but you seem to think they’re lying or skewing the truth. I have little doubt that the hhi for their median customer is in the 99th percentile. Look at how much a macan costs when you add any options to it.
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
The slide was from 2020 apparently. That level is the .01 and they are claiming it’s the middle. Just hard to believe is all. 250k is more like it at least for the Macan. Those 700/month leases move the Macan like hot cakes. Now if they claimed this with the Panamera buyer… that would make more sense. In this stat they could have excluded lessees and only counted purchases. If that’s the case the upper income would make more sense as higher income are likely to just cut a check. But again we don’t have the data so its all pointless.
longgamma@reddit
Just search for their Macan gts review. They had a slide by Porsche themselves. Lots of affluent people in Bay Area drive Macan and cayenne like a RAV4
1fapadaythrowaway@reddit
I guess… hard to think the bay area makes the market but maybe they aren’t selling that many
strongmanass@reddit
Why is your comment dripping with disdain? Driving the children to school is as valid a reason for a car as any other commute. And that kind of driving is the best case for an EV because it's a local trip in stop and go traffic where ICEVs are inefficient. If the disdain is for high earning households buying a Porsche as a lifestyle product, that's been the case for over 20 years.
longgamma@reddit
It’s just a tongue in cheek comment dude. Calm down lmao. Why you getting worked up over a car ?
strongmanass@reddit
I'm not worked up. And I was talking about the dig at mothers in the last sentence. idk where you live, but a lot of the female Macan owners around me drop the kids off at school and then go give presentations to the board or deliver babies.
longgamma@reddit
Cool story. More power to the moms in your area.
Domyyy@reddit
It’s priced surprisingly well for a Porsche tho? It’s way way cheaper than the Taycan and iirc even cheaper than the outgoing Macan ICE when specs are equal (at least in Germany).
neodymiumex@reddit
In the US you can't spec them exactly the same but my ICE Macan build on the configurator was ~$10k cheaper than my EV Macan build. This was ICE GTS vs EV 4S, which would imply the EV was a step down trim-wise.
Domyyy@reddit
I can’t find pricing from 2024 but the GTS was 90k in 2022 and the Macan 4S EV is 90k in 2025.
BTW Do you guys get the Macan (S) in the US? It’s a Macan with a GTI Engine, I bet it’d be an insanely tough sell in the US.
neodymiumex@reddit
I believe the current gen S has the 2.9L V6 that comes in the GTS. Only the T and the base have the 4 cylinder.
Domyyy@reddit
Oh you’re right, the S has always had a V6.
natesully33@reddit
Wow, you're right, they overlap pretty well now with the EV pricing. I suppose most carmakers are offering EVs as their own model, or a different version of the same like the Lightning. Completely replacing a model with an EV version and charging more for it seems... bold.
cach-e@reddit
I've got an ICE Macan. I have zero interest in a pure EV. I live in the country-side, I sometimes do 400+ mile trips. And while the engine might not be amazing, it's still better than most dailies.
The price is not really a factor (as long as it's not outrageous), but I'm not buying a Porsche to hear some electric "woooosh". I would happily buy a hybrid Macan, assuming the ICE was good and at sounded at least decent.
I saw somebody say "why not just buy a Cayenne then?". But the size difference is more noticeable than you would think. Not nearly as pleasant to drive.
uber_neutrino@reddit
Same. Like you I also do 4-500 mile trips in a day (often with the local car club) and an EV would simply not work.
I can see a lot of customers just not buying a Macan and switching to something else. EV infra simply isn't there.
PS How are you liking your piccolo V12? I know the 296 is a great driver but I'm sticking with my real V12 for now (812).
cach-e@reddit
I've driven many Ferraris previously, but it was the first Ferrari that made me switch away from Porsche for my own cars.
Coming from Porsche, a 6-cylinder is not really an issue for me, and it sounds better than a lot of the later V8s. Though it doesn't quite match an 812 for sound. :)
Absolutely adore the car as a whole. It has a weird combination of the drama and unrulyness from many other Ferraris with the precision of a Porsche. Hard to explain. Maybe the best way I can explain it is that previously, no matter what car I owned or was driving, I was always thinking about what car I should get next. With the 296 I no longer do that.
uber_neutrino@reddit
Haha this is very similar to my thoughts on the 812. I factory ordered mine and intend on it being a keeper. I have considered the new 12 cylindri but I don't have the life energy to own both. The pricing has gotten wild (I already thought my 812 was pricey).
TBH I've really been enjoying the Vette as well. It's very much a modern Speciale.
Anyway I know the 296 is a good driver, so good to hear you've experienced the same.
cach-e@reddit
Think you're doing the right choice there. I don't mind the 12 Cilindri's looks, but the 812 is more beautiful. But yeah, the cars are quite pricey nowadays. My 296 was not helped by a weak local currency vs. the EUR at the time of payment, nor the fact that I overspecced it quite a bit... :)
uber_neutrino@reddit
The overspeccing is real. I had a bit over $100k in options on the 812 and I was being fairly frugal (basically no carbon except the steering wheel / driver center). Which is fine because I'm not a huge carbon fan. I did spring for the custom luggage though...
We also ordered the Porto M and same thing, lots of schtuff lol. Oh well you only live once and I don't get to order new Ferraris too often.
cach-e@reddit
Yeah, I had more than $100k on the 296 as well. But as you say, you only live once. No point having a ton of money when you're dead.
uber_neutrino@reddit
Exactly, I don't consider car money wasted because it's where I get my enjoyment.
InternalAd3921@reddit
the cayenne is also the ugliest car porsche makes
e39hamann@reddit
My wife has a 2016 Macan and wants to order a new one in the next year or so but has no interest in an EV. We do have the ability to charge at home and don't tow with it or anything but she just isn't ready to go electric yet, which I fully support haha.
007meow@reddit
Price and depreciation concerns for me.
Also knowing that it’s already outdated in that it comes with CCS, when NACS is imminent
Dangerous-Air2566@reddit
Can you explain this?
007meow@reddit
TL;DR is that it has the older, clunkier style charging port design that the industry is shifting away from.
It’s still totally functional, just that you’ll have to use an adapter at fast chargers in the future
QuicksilverC5@reddit
Guys in the Porsche club near me don’t want it because those with Taycans only have them due to subsidies, Macan offers nothing new over that so why switch and they aren’t going to spend what Porsche is asking for an EV when they can get a petrol car instead.
W0666007@reddit
Yeah I think the combination of depreciation concerns and the fact that the people that really wanted an electric Porsche have already bought one played into this a lot. Good for me bc I really want to buy an ICE cayman in the next couple years.
Deflated_Hive@reddit
Doug Demuro was saying that Porsche USA was concerned about the EV Macan because they're being shipped to dealerships without buyers. Apparently that was unusual because typically all Porsches are accounted for. If they're shipping Macans unsold then that means these are going to be sitting on lots. Nobody really wants them.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
Well the macan EV is 15k more than a regular macan. That would take years to make up the gas savings
caustictoast@reddit
15k is an absolutely untenable difference in price. You won't ever make it up in gas savings
Foreign_State_1193@reddit
if you are smart you buy an EV that is a year old with low milage. You easily save 10k. Only dumb people buy brand new cars.
RiftHunter4@reddit
I've never understood the gas savings logic with EV's. It just doesn't add up for the US. Why would anyone be sweating fuel costs with a $75k purchase? Just get a cheaper car and budget the extra money for fuel and maintenance.
Not to mention, no one is saving any money with a new car purchase. The expense far outweighs any fuel savings you get.
UGMadness@reddit
Tesla is the worst in that regard, peddling the “after fuel savings” prices on their website as if you’re not pissing away the difference on insurance anyways.
Foreign_State_1193@reddit
The US really is a crazy market lol where I live the insurance is basically the same for EV or ICE. Also I am saving almost 200€ per month on GAS alone. If we had maintanenance I save another 500€ per year easily. Over here we also have access to green energy so I am also saving the planet even if its only a little bit.
anapoe@reddit
Also, electricity is more expensive than gas where I live =/
neodymiumex@reddit
I’m not sure where you live, but here charging my EV at home costs like $4. I know we have cheap electricity but are there really places where electricity costs 15x? Filling up with premium would cost me at least $60.
Oo__II__oO@reddit
yup. California under PG&E or SDG&E are expensive. Peak $0.73/kWh, off-peak $0.35/kWh. To "fill up" the Macan EV 100 kWh battery runs between $35-$73, to go \~300 miles in range.
The gas Macan gets \~390 miles of range on a 17 gal tank. At $4/gallon, it costs $68 to fill up the tank (or suppose it's the $4.50 high price, for $76.50 for the full tank).
Gas Macan: $0.196/mi
EV Macan: $0.117/mi to $0.243/mi
Now if you only have access to DCFC, you're going to find yourself on the high side of that equation. Even with home charging to get that low rate, you have to include the cost of the EVSE plus installation (I did mine for \~$1k, doing the work myself, but CA can get expensive for electricians, especially when you use terms "solar" or "EV"). Using my $1k as an example, that is equivalent to 13 tanks of gas, for 5000 miles.
TL;DR: it's really a wash for operating costs (You're paying way more for the purchase price and insurance).
bexamous@reddit
Yep, I found zero savings with EV in CA w/PG&E. Pretty much anywhere else in country you should have SOME savings. Though I still agree with other guy, who is actually buying an EV to save money. I'm buying EV cause its fucking awesome daily.
banelingsbanelings@reddit
I don't have an EV. But here in germany(I know - the other extreme) home charging is roughly 40 cents. So 10x. And the way Berlin tackles EV is by adding charging stations to existing streetlamps, somehow it's made/codeveloped by Shell. In principile a great idea, but my neighbor told me it's 94cents/kWh - so 20x~ish.
anapoe@reddit
Northeast US, average electric rate $0.25/kWh. I still charge my PHEV but I'm not doing to be getting any major fuel savings from an EV. =/
Maybe solar panels someday, if they don't get tarrifed to shit.
Practical-Rent9486@reddit
Not possible.
gpatterson7o@reddit
That's why u have to buy a solar system with battery. Conveniently also sold by Tesla!
thedrivingcat@reddit
Like all insurance, the cost is highly variable. of be curious if there's data for the actual difference due to powertrain (ie. a comparison between an EV vs ICE in the exact same model) because in my case there's a negligible cost increase - our 2022 Model 3 is $10/m more expensive than my 15 year old Corolla.
2BlueZebras@reddit
I went from a used ICE getting 20mpg to a used PHEV and immediately saved $200 a month on gas. That cut my cost of ownership in half.
If you're spending $75k then I agree, gas isn't a priority. But I spent sub-$20k.
gpatterson7o@reddit
Are EVs really a money saving thing? I thought they were more of a virtue signal?
hutacars@reddit
Well, they used to be. When I bought my car free charging was abundant, resale (at least for Teslas) was reasonably strong, insurance was cheap (I paid $400/6mo), and maintenance costs were predicted to be low. Now free charging is less prevalent and supercharger costs have increased (yes, I charge mainly at work/home, but I also road trip a lot), insurance is $900/6mo (and that was with a lot of shopping around, otherwise it was going to be ~$1200/6mo!), and I'm going to have to bring it in soon for a front end clunking noise at 62k miles. Oh, and my $50k car is worth probably $18k on trade in.
Economically, I would have been better off in a Prius, but ultimately I do still prefer EVs for daily use, and will likely buy others in the future.
gpatterson7o@reddit
I always wondered ...if these cars are so great why are there so many on the used market? I guess it's the virtue signalers getting rid of them.
hutacars@reddit
Could be. I'm keeping mine because, y'know, it's pretty great.
neodymiumex@reddit
I bought my EV because it has extremely low NVH, comfortable seats, is reasonably quick, and was silly cheap when bought 4 years old with 50k miles. No one I know bought one to virtue signal, those were the people who bought gen 1 EVs 10 years ago. Now it can just be the more practical choice.
Nefilim314@reddit
I don’t think the cost savings is the perk. It’s the fact that you never need to go to a sticky nasty gas station with some sketchy dude approaching you to ask for $10 to “fill up his car” but his car is “down the street and needs to be towed”.
lostfate2005@reddit
lol I like the smell of gasoline
uber_neutrino@reddit
So true. I never want to stop to take a piss or buy some drinks or snacks. Oh wait.
Nefilim314@reddit
Do you not have a toilet or food at home?
CallLivesMatter@reddit
Typically when people are driving to or from somewhere they are not also simultaneously at their home.
Nefilim314@reddit
What is this nonsense?
You guys are acting like food and restrooms only exist in gas stations specifically and everyone driving an EV is just bladder busting every time they go for a drive.
Restaurants exist. Every EV charging station I’ve been to has been in the parking lot of a larger store, which also has restrooms and food.
The whole point is fucking stupid and people are dying on this hill.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
You asked if people had a toilet in their home. I’m pointing out that their home—and everything bolted down to it, including the toilet—are generally not available to you when you’re driving in your car. Everything else you wrote is as best I can tell unrelated to the narrow scope of my answer to you.
ontha-comeup@reddit
At least in my market you never make up the savings because insurance on EV's is $100-$300 more per month
2BlueZebras@reddit
I believe it. My most expensive insurance was my oldest car, a PHEV. I traded it in for a full EV, thinking that car was an insurance fluke. Nope. Insurance jumped up 50%.
TrptJim@reddit
Where are you seeing these prices? Just curious as to the area, as I am not seeing this kind of discrepancy and I do own one vehicle of each type: ICE, Hybrid, PHEV, and EV. As a matter of fact, my gas car has the highest premium and is the cheapest car of the bunch (Miata).
ontha-comeup@reddit
I just got quotes and the Model Y was $100 more and Rivian was $300 more per month. Insane, the person giving me the quote thought it was wrong at first.
I like the EV powertrains as a daily even as a V8 person, but that has to be sorted out first.
bexamous@reddit
For Wife and I a 2016 Fiesta ST + 2022 Mazda CX9 = $282/month
Then adding a 2024 Lucid Air Touring = $324/month
So $42 more, but like 1 more car total. And that 1 new one is twice the value of the other two combined. Doesn't seem unreasonable.
Whispercry@reddit
I got that beat. Was looking at the BMW iX and insurance was $300 more a month than my Y.
Designfanatic88@reddit
How?? My BMW EV insurance is $120/month.
Next_Necessary_8794@reddit
It makes sense. The Model Y and the Rivian are very expensive vehicles. Insurance premiums will reflect that among other factors.
akrokh@reddit
A dent in the bed is an instant write-off for Rivian. So I kinda understand insurance people on that one. Also seen multiple i3’s being written off because of monocoque structure being chipped or cracked.
ontha-comeup@reddit
I should have clarified, that is $100-$300 more than my wife's 23 Lexus RX which has comparable value to the Model Y. You have a point with the Rivian though, it was worth $25k-$30k more.
Next_Necessary_8794@reddit
Yes cost is only 1 of many factors as I said before. Another factor is how frequently this vehicle is involved in accidents.
ReppTie@reddit
I’m in the insurance industry. I don’t work in auto insurance but have talked to people who do.
Another issue with Teslas and Rivians is that they’re newer brands that generally do not have the supply chain and parts inventory of more established brands. So in addition to the repairs often being more costly, they also take longer. Assuming the policyholder has rental coverage, that cost can add up.
If someone in a Wrangler mangles their front bumper, it’s probably less than $1000 and less than 1 day to fix. If someone in a Tesla mangles their front bumper, it could be $5000-6000 and 2-3 weeks of rental car, adding another $500-1000 of cost.
PorscheLover97@reddit
Adding on, we are still developing a network of autoshops that can actually work on EVs. Many simply refuse and the ones that do, have some long wait times.
beforesunsetearth@reddit
Tesla went first by not really making third party repair shops possible. Sure there are some that survive off ingenuity but that isn't the norm.
white_urkel@reddit
Which market is that? I got an insurance quote for a Kona EV and it was $130/month, never been in an accident before.
theineffablebob@reddit
I’m in California and my 2024 Model 3 Performance is $130/mo for full coverage
ontha-comeup@reddit
Florida, just got quotes a few weeks ago. That is above a Lexus RX.
Pdxlater@reddit
It’s crazy how much more expensive certain markets are. I just checked. Our Rivian averages to $150/month while the Audi is $100/month.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
Its because EVs are very likely to be written off for even minor accidents. There's no good way to verify the integrity of the batteries and surrounding equipment after a crash. That leads to replacing the battery way more than is required because if a battery cell fails the entire car could catch fire.
That and companies like Rivian and Tesla and Lucid have little internal knowledge (or interest) in designing for repairability. A Rivian rear bumper can cost 40k to fix because it can require replacing the single monolithic panel that is the rear quarter panel and the roof.
Pdxlater@reddit
I guess it can be, but my point is that for me it’s just not that much more expensive.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
Not to mention most states now have an EV fee for registrations to offset lost fuel taxes and those EV fees exceed the gas tax for people who don't drive a ton in a lot of states.
Clover-kun@reddit
Depends on the vehicle as well, Teslas are notorious for being borderline unrepairable, byproduct of their production methods. Meanwhile my i5 is basically just a regular 5 series with an EV drivetrain, and insurance was the same as the gas verison for me
dnyank1@reddit
yall are buggin.
My Polestar is cheaper to insure as a 500hp 65,000 car in 2025 than my Cadillac CTS was as a 300hp 55k car in 2019
earoar@reddit
Depreciation is also much higher. Porsche is going to have to start dropping their EV prices, they aren’t competitive at all right now and that’s why Taycan sales fell off a cliff.
MajesticBread9147@reddit
It's not just gas though. It's not like EVs are maintenance and problem free, but fewer moving parts and less fluids that need to be changed mean fewer points of failure.
Especially on a German car where repairs are expensive.
MilkyWaySamurai@reddit
I’ll take more points of failure over a few violently expensive points of failure.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Don't buy a Mercedes with the 2.0 then. Or an N54 BMW. Or a 458 without the firewall adhesive fix.
And ICE Porsche's have never had issues like catching on fire.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15365644/porsche-knows-whats-causing-911-gt3-fires-will-disclose-fix-soon/
MilkyWaySamurai@reddit
None of those cars are even close to being in my budget range, so no worries 👌
ozziegt@reddit
Aren't Taycans some of the most problematic Porsches out there right now?
xXxDickBonerz69xXx@reddit
To hit the number of miles to spend $15k on scheduled maintenance you'd definitely need a battery replacement on an EV
_galaga_@reddit
Assuming a long enough ownership timeline to incur that much maintenance, yes, but if you're leasing it's a straight up 15k EV tax.
MajesticBread9147@reddit
Very true, but aren't Porsche owners disproportionately ones who keep their cars longer, at least compared to other luxury cars?
AncefAbuser@reddit
Not Macans. Lease specials.
gadgetluva@reddit
Well it’s less because of the tax credit for leases…but that’ll be going away soon so yea.
skepticaljesus@reddit
Is "gas savings" really the thing that makes the porsche buyer choose EV over ICE? Surely the buyer that spends is $100k+ on a german EV is more concerned about the ease/cost of maintenance and the immediate torque response/performance more than cost savings.
Brothernod@reddit
Porsche still probably charges $1,600 for annual maintenance to check the brakes and replace an air filter (hyperbole)
RyanOfTheVille@reddit
Tbf the Macan EV comes with quite a few things standard that the ICE Macan doesn’t. If you wanted to option out the ICE to be more apples to apples the difference is not that large
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
But it's missing all the mechanical parts of the ice so you'd think it would be cheaper. Maybe it's priced with subsidies in mind
RyanOfTheVille@reddit
EV’s are way more expensive to manufacture because of the batteries, at the moment. As battery prices come down, costs will also come down
GothGirlStink@reddit
The other issue is who is the Macan for? It's not particularly fast. It's not a good EV either. If you're a rich suburban mom in the USA why wouldn't you just get an Escalade or Denali or something else bigger, safer, with infinitely more utility?
You could say its a luxury crossover, but its not even remotely "luxury" in comparison to the competition in the US as far as dumb suburban terror vehicles go
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
This is hilariously dumb sounding considering all Porsche dealerships have cars there. You can even buy them! You're making it sound like when you go to a Porsche dealership, every car on the lot and all those in the showroom are already purchased and just waiting to be picked up.
Deflated_Hive@reddit
See the source link
https://youtu.be/BG1tF2xH4f4?si=LQ5BRJ-hEZcvAzZm&t=14m12s
I don't think that's dumb sounding. Do Tesla dealerships have EV's you can buy in stock? I thought their whole lean manufacturing processes would be to eliminate as much excess inventory as possible. You test drive at the showroom and order online. It's a sales model that helped Tesla minimize the horrendous overhead costs since iterating fast is the only way to make EVs sell. And Tesla is the only profitable EV maker. I doubt Porsche can claim that. Excess inventory would be deadly for them.
I think it's concerning to keep high expensive and quickly deprecative tech products around because they get obsoleted far too fast. I doubt you can sell a previous generation iPhone next to the new one. Luxury buyers want the latest and greatest.
Dealers in this high interest rate environment don't want to take a chance on EVs (especially a slow selling EV Porsche Macan) unless they have brand recognition like Tesla. So yeah. High Macan inventory, bad.
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
You said "typically all Porsches are accounted for" at dealers, which makes it sound like all Porsches at Dealers are already purchased and just waiting for customers to pick up, which just isn't true or even close to true.
007meow@reddit
I very much want one… but after seeing Taycan depreciation, I’m going to wait
magrittestreachery@reddit
You didn't learn about ev depreciation after buying an X and a Y??
007meow@reddit
I bought them in 2021. I had actually sold a 2020 Y for $15k more than I bought it for around then.
aprtur@reddit
That was a fluke of the COVID market - hopefully you're not saying you'll wait for that to happen again, because it's extremely unlikely.
007meow@reddit
Elon promised me my car would be an appreciating asset 🥺
aprtur@reddit
LOL....thank you for that lead off joke, that gave a good laugh.
Absolutely agree with you, I don't know what would cause something that extreme to happen again. Timing was slightly off for me, so I didn't get to profit, but I did benefit from the prices being up enough to not totally lose my arse from a lady creaming me in my car at the time. You never know what life will bring, that's for sure.
clingbat@reddit
What does this mean? There are plenty of new ICE and EV Porsches sitting around unsold at our local dealership, and it's been the case since they rebounded from covid. Sure they've been mostly Macans and Cayennes, but plenty of Panameras, Taycans and heck they even had a brand new yellow GT4 sitting around for a bit along with a handful of lower trim 911's.
Deflated_Hive@reddit
Source, to add more context, Doug last week talks about how federal EV incentives are critical factors to EV sales. He goes to a Porsche dealership in California (not Porsche USA) and asks how their Macan EV's are selling. It's a small sample size. But if a major California Porsche dealership that services his Carerrar GT can't sell Macan EV's then that's a significant bellweather.
https://youtu.be/BG1tF2xH4f4?si=LQ5BRJ-hEZcvAzZm&t=14m12s
clingbat@reddit
I wasn't suggesting they aren't selling poorly, just that seeing a bunch of Macans on a higher volume Porsche dealership lot, ICE or EV isn't abnormal, that's all.
stakoverflo@reddit
Yea that sounds made up; sure they have build allocations for all their super desirable cars, but surely Porsche isn't building every single Macan to some particular buyer's spec
Deflated_Hive@reddit
See added source. It wasn't Porsche USA. But a dealership question.
Jay_Diamond_WWE@reddit
I think it means they're being forced on dealerships without being ordered.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
ICE macans are sent unallocated as well. Doug is just wrong if he claimed that was an aberration for EV macans.
dontbeslo@reddit
The non 2 door cars are different are I think, Porsche dealers usually have inventory of them, while the 2 door cars are generally orders, maybe with one or two in stock units
SirSteyr@reddit
I don't think depreciation is a concern with Macan or Cayenne buyers, they fall off a cliff in value. I can buy a pretty high trim version of either for $20k-$30k that's less than 10 years old with decent miles.
I don't know if Porsche is "mulling" this so much as they're scrambling to shove engines back into Macan and Cayman ASAP. I believe they are because the 992.2 launch has been the slowest most ill communicated 911 launch ever. Engineering is probably working overtime to get a production ready Macan out the doors.
ozziegt@reddit
Jesus dude you can buy any car with 60-70% depreciation after 10 years
reward72@reddit
Yes, the depreciation is the biggest thing. I don't care for SUVs, but I would love a Taycan. But I would never buy one with its eye watering depreciation. It makes no financial sense with the 911 exist.
The Boxster is supposed to go EV this year, I predict it will fail miserably. Some people will buy it sure, but it will make no financial sense. And a roadster without a nice engine note and a manual transmission is a neutered experience.
iDripAlone@reddit
lower price of 911 then lol
s32@reddit
And actually produce them.
And stop making dumb shit that comes standard on a subaru a 3k add on.
flGovEmployee@reddit
My understanding is that for the 911, if they could produce more they would. The literal waiting lists in the US for $150,000+ vehicles indicate Porsche is leaving money on the table every day they don't sell to the people on those lists.
The problem is they can't just increase production 10% or 15% if they've maxed out what their factory can produce. Which means very significant capital spend to either build a new factory or expand the existing one, which may essentially equate to a minimum increase in production of 50%+. If they don't think there is enough demand to sustain that kind of increased production long term (without lower prices and therefor margins while also hurting the value of what they've already produced and angering existing/prior customers) then it just doesn't make sense to do that kind of production increase.
Look I want cheaper Porsches as much as the next guy (specifically so I can buy one), but I don't think this is at all like the situation with Toyota intentionally underproducing GR Corollas the first couple years at all.
balkan89@reddit
the world is healing
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Unless Porsche very quickly develops a new Macan using the underpinnings of the new Q5, I'm not sure how they're going to stick a combustion engine and drivetrain into the new Macan, since it sits on an EV skateboard platform (PPE).
The obvious play would be to just extend the production run of the existing petrol Macan, but I'm not sure if it's affected by the same cybersecurity issues that ended up killing the 718 in the EU.
allahakbau@reddit
They do have access to an EREV platform LOL.
klowny@reddit
IF they make it a Q5 PHEV with the V6 instead of the I4, I'm suddenly in the market for a Macan.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
You can get a Macan T with the same EA888 4-popper as the douchbag with a burble-tuned GTI for $70K after options if you want.
klowny@reddit
I really don't like the Macan with the EA888, which is one of the main reasons I didn't get one.
KingMario05@reddit
That'll be exactly what they do. The Cayenne has been a fancy VW Touareg for the longest time, so it wouldn't even be without precedent.
Plyphon@reddit
With the original Macan, they adopted the Q5 chassis. However, Porsche engineers had to change so much to get it to handle how they wanted, that only about 20% of the original Q5 chassis remains.
After the Macan released to fanfare, Porsche said it would have been cheaper to start from scratch, but using the platform as a base enables some speed.
Developing a new car is hard and time consuming. Even if they share platforms, neither Macan or Cayenne are “fancy VW’s”.
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
yes they are. The Cayenne S is not that different from an SQ7. I've bought Audi parts to fix them and the diagrams/architecture are almost interchangeable.
The same is true for the Macan. I'm not sure where that 20% claim comes from, but I don't buy it. Having worked on a Q5 and a Macan (same generation), they were mildly different, the biggest part being the powertrains (this was before the base macan got a GTI motor).
Oil_McTexas@reddit
I’m not sure where your claim comes from either. You’d need to qualify and back up “not that different”
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
My claim comes from working on them. The fact that I can buy parts from either oem is my qualifier.
Oil_McTexas@reddit
which parts?
Plyphon@reddit
There are many sources if you search, but this video has Porsche techs talking in depth about the Macan, with discussion about the platform starting at 4:36.
https://youtu.be/2gmJ-HiyNJg?si=4hPe_jlumKvuQ7Vn
LC-Dookmarriot@reddit
It has cybersecurity issues?
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Doesn't comply to this which is now mandatory in the EU since July 2024.
Domyyy@reddit
And that’s also the reason they killed it. Porsche would’ve probably sold the „old“ Macan with maybe a slight facelift for years to come.
Yezhik@reddit
I test drove the new macan EV, did not like it. First off it doesn't have one pedal drive feature, what EV doesn't have some sort of OPD? The steering wheel is tiny but the car feels gigantic. For the price, I expected more.
Personal preference but losing the clam hood was disappointing.
terp2010@reddit
Wait what!?!? No one pedal driving? So it uses brakes every time? Whoever made that decisions needs to go straight to jail…
Yezhik@reddit
Yeah, supposedly it applies regen when you press the brake. But the whole point is to alleviate foot fatigue on long drives or traffic commute. Their thought is it removes the spirit or something of their car philosophy.
But you can turn off one pedal drive, if your car has it, not offering it is just elitist and lazy.
Captain_Alaska@reddit
No, it regens with the brake pedal until you exceed what regen can provide.
bhauertso@reddit
Yeah, EVs without one-pedal driving are a non-starter for me. I'm not interested in willingly returning to world where you need to always use the brake pedal to stop. The brake pedal doesn't make driving more "fun" and intentionally omitting one-pedal driving removes part of the luxury of EVs.
natesully33@reddit
Porsche aparently doesn't do one pedal, because corporate philosophy. Yeah I don't get it either, most non-Tesla BEVs let you choose to use it or not.
duderos@reddit
We all knew this would happen except for Porsche somehow. Lol
carmooch@reddit
Fun fact. The Macan was the first current nameplate to transition to electric. Every other electric car has been released as a separate model.
Clover-kun@reddit
BMW has been selling the same cars with gas, hybrid, and EV powertrains for years
PAcMAcDO99@reddit
they're talking about full transition to EV
Firearms_N_Freedom@reddit
what about f150 lightning ?
RangeRoverHSE@reddit
That's a model added to an existing lineup that still has gas versions. The Macan went from entirely ICE to entirely (for now) EV.
New-Natural-9288@reddit
That’s not accurate? Porsche still sells an ice ev at least in the us.
RangeRoverHSE@reddit
They still sell the first-gen gas-powered Macan along side the second-gen. So while you can get a gas or EV Macan at the same time, all the gas ones are gen-1 cars in production since 2014 and all the EVs are the brand new second generation model.
Firearms_N_Freedom@reddit
i misunderstood, and now that im thinking about it the cayman maybe the second car ever to transition to electric without an ice model accompanying it though it looks like they might be backpedaling on that decision as well
ElFeed@reddit
Technically you’re right as the f150 lightning was an ICE car before it became electric. Although theres still ice models of the f150.
hermitcraftfan135@reddit
Are we talking Porsche? Cuz if it’s EVs in general, that isn’t true at all.
piddydb@reddit
I think they meant it’s the first nameplate that existed before and fully transitioned to electric rather than maintaining an ICE model as well.
hermitcraftfan135@reddit
Ah. Makes sense, thanks for clarifying
carmooch@reddit
Correct.
nipcarlover@reddit
The Renault Megane and Scenic have both been transitioned to BEVs in 2023/2024
BWFTW@reddit
I think it's true for north America
MilkyWaySamurai@reddit
And that’s all that matters, I guess?
BWFTW@reddit
Hahaha. I didn't mean it in that way. I meant that if you amend the original comment to include " in north America" it's still a fun fact.
Godvater@reddit
Off the top of my head: Renault Megane, Renault Scenic, Renault 5, Audi A6(although unclear if new Macan or new A6 came first),
Nephroidofdoom@reddit
F-150 Lightning?
WrongdoerSoggy4422@reddit
Porsche is about to find out they just pulled a jeep and pushed their prices above their paygrade. My porsche dealer near DC has 3 911s sitting on the lot rusting away. Porsche needs to remember they have been here before. They have gotten too greedy and the EV Macan is hilariously overpriced.
Minute-Solution5217@reddit
I doubt any luxury brand will beat their covid sales numbers. That was like a once in a lifetime thing. At least i hope so lol
moonRekt@reddit
I thought Macan were supposed to get good range. Bummer since idk why it doesn’t sell, it’s not like the target audience is a hard sell. Great colors too. Tired of getting bamboozled with winter electric range
Richard_Lionheart69@reddit
What would help Porsches sales is making enough 911s so people don’t have to pay an adm
BrokeBankNinja@reddit
EV Macans are selling like hot cakes at my dealership
aprtur@reddit
Would help a lot to qualify this - where are you located?
thejetssuckbigtime@reddit
I’ve seen several out in the wild by me too. I think they sell like gangbusters depending on the market
Ill-Train6478@reddit
Maybe it has to do with recent price hiking their entire models along with bad EV publicity like back few winters when all EVs were stuck in blizzard storm. After the incident people didn’t look at EV the same, at least in the states.
aprtur@reddit
It's starting to come into the news again with the recent sub 30°F weather - curious how the 20° and lower weather this coming week will impact things. Not that it's a normal occurrence for most of the country by any means, but I can see this driving further hysteria over it.
spas2k@reddit
Hopefully this makes them scrap the Ev Boxster/Caymen models coming up.
nortthroply@reddit
Evs are being pushed so hard, like just because the company wasted money developing it doesn’t mean anyone wants one
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
Model Y was 4th best selling car in the US last year selling around 405k units.
It beat out the Honda CRV, Ram trucks, Gmc Sierra, the Toyota Camry, Nissan Rogue, the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Chevy Equinox, Hyundai Tucson, Chevy Trax, Ford Explorer, Toyota Tacoma, Subaru Crosstrek, Subaru Forester, Toyota Highlander, Honda Accord, Kia Sportage, Subaru Outback, Toyota Tundra, and Nissan Sentra.
It was only beat by the Rav 4, Chevy Silverado and Ford F150. And this is in the US where people like you claim everyone hates EVs.
Worldwide the Tesla Model Y was the 2nd top selling car with around 973k sales. In short, Evs aren't going anywhere, and a fuck ton of people want one.
Next_Necessary_8794@reddit
Would the model Y have beat out all those other cars if those other cars had government subsidies? No hate. Just a genuine question.
markeydarkey2@reddit
Those ICE cars already have considerable subsidies for their fuel that are rarely brought up when talking about the $7500 EV tax credit. The whole point of the tax credit is to match price parity while batteries are currently expensive, with the purpose being to incentivize lower emission transport.
By the end of the decade the tax credit won't be required because batteries will be cheaper.
Next_Necessary_8794@reddit
I'm not talking about fuel source (gas or electricity), because that is a user specific conversation. In some places the cost of electricity is very high. In other places the cost of gasoline is high. In some places you can get paid to install solar. So there's no one size fits all when you start accounting for fueling cost and how both gasoline and electricity can and are subsidized by various parties.
So that's why I'm only talking about the car and it's purchase price.
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
I mean imo yeah, they're far more expensive to start with compared to a lot of them. Most people don't give a shit about the $7500 subsidy, most of my clients who drive Teslas just genuinely like them and wanted and EV and it's the best EV on the market at its price.
nortthroply@reddit
nobody cares, theres enough dick suckers out there to buy a shit car, tesla sales declined yoy, evs are ass
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
Aww. Buttercup doesn't know what to think now that statistics are showing he has no idea what he's talking about.
nortthroply@reddit
Declining sales definitely doesn’t paint a picture of appreciation and growth lmfao
CactusDrafts@reddit
Also, reception has been lukewarm. Someone i know works at a porsche dealership and they say out of a handful they've sold, more than a few have been traded back in already.
bhauertso@reddit
Not really surprised. The software UX,, ownership experience, and performance of the EV Macan are disappointing stacked against the competition. Not that switching it to ICE will solve any of those problems, but I can understand their desperation.
temporalwanderer@reddit
"China, a market in which Porsche’s sales dropped by almost 30% in 2024." there's most of the decline, right there...
thecanadiandriver101@reddit
YES PLEASE
HarobmbeGronkowski@reddit
Ice Macan sounds like something you would order at an overpriced coffee shop
EmergencyRace7158@reddit
Predicted this. I suspect the EV Boxster and Cayman will be delayed or even canceled outright until a ICE version is developed.
Vimes-NW@reddit
Who would think that ADM and snobery in a bad economy and highly competitive sector wouldn't affect sales? I can afford Porsche but I don't want to deal with VW reliability, Jeep level of depreciation, and Ferrari sales attitude.
But hey, $100k ADM on RS3 or 718S will keep the lights on for a bit
whitecow@reddit
Electric Macan looks awesome, good that they may make ice version
seanchappelle@reddit
A Tesla is faster, cheaper, and more intuitive.
re4ctor@reddit
I want one, my thinking was to just get one CPO in 2-3 years. $120k canadian for a decently equipped 4s is crazy tho. I’ll get it for 60-80k and be happy.
They priced it way too high for their entry level nameplate.
FeedbackLoopy@reddit
It’s overpriced. Who wants to pay Cayenne prices for a compact CUV?
IknowwhatIhave@reddit
Good to hear the ridiculous EV experiment is coming to an end and we can back to building cars people actually want and need.
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
Lol. Yeah no one wants evs in the US. That's why the model y was the 4th best selling car in the US last year.
GettCouped@reddit
Hybrid is the future for most people until batteries and EV infrastructure gets better.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
FWIK, Porsche is suffering in local EV price war. The start price of Macan in China has now decreased to 35.8k RMB ( near 49k USD ).
Even they now cut so much price, they’re still hard to against local EVs.
initial_launch@reddit
The new EV Macan is basically the same price as a Cayenne. It’s a tough sell. Also, the ICE macan hasn’t been substantially updated in ages. Also a tough sell. There’s just better competition and options in the segment now.
And ngl, the lease deals on the current Cayennes are pretty bad. A base cayenne might be around $1300 a month at the lowest (if you want a decent down payment and mileage allotment). It’s not surprising that sales are not where they’re expecting.
egowritingcheques@reddit
I love the Macan shape and size and how it drives. But I wouldn't buy an electric one. It has to sound good too.
TheWeinerThief@reddit
Parents just bought an ICE one. They loved the new style on the EV and wished it came in gas. I've seen a few of the EVs around but yeah the gas versions stay on the lot for 3 days max while the others sit. Personally I think the EV was priced fairly, but it climbs quick
KingMario05@reddit
Makes sense. EV adoption in Europe has been a fair bit lower than expected, and those buying in tend to stick to lower-class brands. Good news is VW has a shit ton of platforms, so they can probably pivot rather quickly.