Lawyers who provide therapy, so criminals can speak freely in therapy knowing they're being protected by attorney-client privilege
Posted by copydoge@reddit | CrazyIdeas | View on Reddit | 52 comments
Being a career criminal must be incredibly stressful and mentally/emotionally taxing. Especially if involved in organized crime (mafia or drug cartels) they might regularly get exposed to liquidations, work friends dying, extortion/death threats, and nearly escaping death. But because of the criminal nature of their job, there's no one they can talk to safely without getting reported to the police, except their lawyers.
Inspired by Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, where exploiting attorney-client privilege is a central topic, why not start a law firm that operates as a therapy practice? Lots of criminals would be willing to spend serious cash to be able to process their traumas and work stress without fear of legal repercussions, with a few smaller criminals here and there who need help managing their stress during buglaries or properly handling conflicts with their accomplices.
HelicopterPenisHover@reddit
All jobs with a confidentiality privilege has a clause for them to legally break it. Lawyers, Doctors, and Priests can/are supposed go to authorities if someone says they actively plan to cause harm.
copydoge@reddit (OP)
I don't know anything about American law and whether or not it's state specific, but a quick google search seems to tell me that they CAN break the privilege in that case, but are only obligated to do so if they get subpoenaed, so it would still work I guess, or cause the ability of the client to talk about crimes to be limited to only ones they already commited
However this is r/crazyideas ofc, one could probably argue whether the relationship can really be considered an attorney-client relationship but let's just assume they'll have a loophole for that as well (given that attorneys are all about finding legal loopholes lol)
KingBooRadley@reddit
They really couldn’t talk about crimes they had committed very effectively either since the lawyer would not later be allowed to knowingly hear them lie under oath without setting the record straight.
UnbelievableRose@reddit
You’re telling me that everyone who ever testified on their own behalf was actually innocent or had a lawyer who was breaking the law?
Mammoth-Hat-7952@reddit
Im pretty sure most criminals don’t come to a lawyer saying hey by the way I did it but don’t tell them that please help me get away with it
UnbelievableRose@reddit
I was under the impression that was the primary job description of a defense lawyer
Mammoth-Hat-7952@reddit
This came from an actual law groups website FAQ.
But defense attorneys can’t allow clients to lie on the stand If you confess all to your attorney and admit your guilt, they cannot legally allow you to take the stand in court and lie about your role in the murder of the decedent. That could get them charged with subornation of perjury and potentially wind up with their own felony conviction. This strategy, too, can wind up leaving defense attorneys hamstrung in their defense of their clients.
Kentaro009@reddit
No, but he is correct in that you cannot knowingly have your client suborn perjury.
Its not about your client being actively innocent, but you cannot knowingly allow your client to lie on the witness stand.
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KingBooRadley@reddit
It’s one of the few things I remember from 1L Criminal law. That was a long time ago.
copydoge@reddit (OP)
What if they only go to this specific lawyer for therapy purposes and just go to a different one instead for actual legal representation for their crimes? The therapy lawyer wouldn't necessarily have to be a criminal lawyer either, for all we know they could be a traffic lawyer who wanted a career shift
bemused_alligators@reddit
At the moment religious heads are still exempt from mandatory reporting in a lot of places. So you can tell your religious leader in the course of a "confessional" and there's no legal consequences
jimmyhoke@reddit
Catholic here: priests absolutely cannot ever go to the authorities over anything said in confession. If you’re thinking of a possible exception the answer is no, not even then. It’s absolutely 100% secret.
sunnyspiders@reddit
Just watch Sopranos and you’ll see your idea in action and all the problems it brings to the table.
Melfi being a lawyer wouldn’t have changed anything, other than probably being more effective going after her attacker after enforcement failed her.
XROOR@reddit
Just write at the top of the page of your personal diary/journal:
to my attorney Ed Scher
Rexrowland@reddit
Why do you think lawyers are called “counselor”?
bemused_alligators@reddit
Because they are your legal council, that councils you in regards to the law.
A therapist is a life councilor, a lawyer is a legal councilor, a doctor is a physical health councilor, etc. "council" isn't an exclusive term for therapist.
Rexrowland@reddit
r/confidentlyincorrect
I said counselor
Your word “councilor” means “member of a council” and has nothing to do with lawyers.
bemused_alligators@reddit
Oh noes I spelled it wrong.
Doesn't change the word though does it?
counselor noun coun·sel·or ˈkau̇n(t)-s(ə-)lər variants or counsellor
1 : a person who gives advice or counseling a marriage counselor 2 : lawyer specifically : one that gives advice in law and manages cases for clients in court The defendant conferred with his counselor
Rexrowland@reddit
You want to be right so badly. It looks bad on you. Go wash your face.
condor1985@reddit
....council and counsel are separate words with very different meanings.
farvag1964@reddit
Therapists are legally required to maintain confidentiality, as are all health care providers and organizations. To allow one of my doctors to share my records with another, I have sign off a few forms, giving them permission to share just that time with just that doctor.
bemused_alligators@reddit
There are still mandatory reports and mandatory duty to warn clauses within the things like HIPAA. If you tell your therapist that you are "going to kill Joe" and they believe you are actually going to do that, they are legally and ethically obligated to warn Joe.
Similarly if your therapist finds out that you have committed a violent felony they have a duty to report that. This includes thing like murder, rape, and child abuse.
The shorthand version is that a therapist must report in regards to child abuse, threats to the safety of others, threats of suicide, and plans to commit a crime.
farvag1964@reddit
That's why you talk general issues or non criminal things. Talking seriously about suicide can get you a bit of time in a mental hospital (personal experience).
I came out crazier than when I went in. Worst 3 weeks of my life. I prefer jail. Nicer ppl.
Anyway, that's why a lawyer is better.
Abuse of a child or elderly person can't be hidden. For lawyers, even the appearance of impropriety can be enough for the bar to evaluate whether they lose their law license or are merely punished.
bemused_alligators@reddit
Everything I hear about mental institutions sounds horrible and a lot of their policies confuse me.
Like oh you're depressed and suicidal? Let me take away your ability to communicate with the people that care about you and then isolate you for a week or two!
Oh and as a bonus you're unemployed now since you just no-call no-showed for a week straight!
farvag1964@reddit
I lost my job,my car, my apartment and my cat.
bemused_alligators@reddit
Yeah that sounds about right.
How do they think ruining your life is going to improve your mental stability? Did you ever figure that out?
farvag1964@reddit
The cops are required to take me into custody. But they can't keep me because I haven't committed a crime. They don't want me, but they can't just release me.
So they take you where they toss street junkies, perverts, and Alzheimer's patients so bad the nursing homes kick them out.
It's all about laws, beauracrats, and money. The mental hospital makes bank from the county for it.
Your welfare us irrelevant.
zalgorithmic@reddit
As someone that’s been through it (my condolences), what do you think a better solution would be?
Sounds like such a sorry state of affairs for the system in place.
farvag1964@reddit
In the US, in the current political climate, they're willing to let women and kids be homeless and starving while giving billionaires grants and tax breaks.
I don't believe a solution is possible.
The problem isn't just the current administration, though.
This problem is baked into the system - I don't think it can be fixed.
You'd have to burn down the current system. Everyone makes money every step of the way off of our misery. When everyone is making bank, there's no reason to change anything.
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condor1985@reddit
You can still be subpoena'd and compelled to testify as a Healthcare provider. You can't assert a duty of confidentiality but you can assert privilege (if it exists)
farvag1964@reddit
That's why you tell your lawyer specifics and everyone else generalities.
Never lie to your lawyer.
farvag1964@reddit
Attorney/client privilege is legally required. If a lawyer spilled his client's information without permission, he's likely to lose his license to practice law.
NeighborTomatoWoes@reddit
Right, but that comes up against a therapists duty to report.
They're opposing goals that can't really coexist
Mountain-Resource656@reddit
The lawyer also has a duty to report; it’s an exception to attorney-client privilege
condor1985@reddit
I'm sure it varies by country, but in Canada that exception is only for someone being in imminent physical danger. Telling someone about your day wouldn't trigger that unless they told you "so yeah I'm going to be killing this person tonight at this address and at this time"
Death_Balloons@reddit
The lawyers just have to avoid using the word "therapist". They can act in the manner of listening to the criminal's issues and giving advice. Maybe as a Lawyer Life Coach or something.
copydoge@reddit (OP)
Exactly that, in my hypothetical world, officially the relationship would always be an attorney-client relationship, they would never officially be their therapist (and therefore also wouldn't need to be licensed as one, only as a lawyer).
condor1985@reddit
They would have to fib and say everything spoken about was for the purposes of seeking legal advice (otherwise it wouldn't be privileged)
farvag1964@reddit
Yes, I'm not sure that combining those two professions can be compatible
condor1985@reddit
Not sure about other countries, but solicitor client privilege only applies to communications between lawyer and client that are for the purposes of obtaining legal advice.
So, a conversation with your lawyer isn't privileged if you're just talking about what you had for dinner last night
Jaxis_H@reddit
Therapists are subject to mandatory reporting and "duty to warn" laws.
drewhead118@reddit
right, which is the very point of this OP. Lawyers are not bound by those same obligations, so they propose that a lawyer also offer therapy so that they could help the client process their traumas without being bound to report
Mountain-Resource656@reddit
Lawyers are also bound by those exact duty-to-report obligations, meanwhile the therapist is also bound by confidentiality laws same as lawyers
Alexencandar@reddit
It's not quite as strong (as in a therapist probably has less leeway to not report activity to their supervising agency and/or police), but lawyers also have a duty to report client's (or potential client's) ongoing crimes or serious threats to others (varies by state).
JewelerAdorable1781@reddit
Foolproof. We here really like your style, there's a job here at the Whitehouse for you.
Vadic_Shrike@reddit
The lawyers behind the "Who Hurt You?" ads probably do this
Ecstatic_Tree3527@reddit
Just go into bird law. Your clients can't tell you nothin'
Hospitalics@reddit
Most lawyers already do this
LovelyMetalhead@reddit
This would not be ethical psychology practice, as psychologists (which include licensed therapists) can't have more than one type of relationship with the same person (that is to say, someone who is your patient can't be your family, friend, or coworker, and I'm sure being a patient and legal client would break that)