How do you perform a power-on stall in a PA-28? It doesn’t seem to stall.
Posted by Classic_Walk_9308@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 86 comments
My checkride is in two weeks, and I’m still struggling with the power-on stall. My instructor says it’s hard to make a PA-28 stall, which is a good thing because it’s a very stable plane. While I agree that flying a plane less prone to stalling is great, I can’t help but wonder: What am I supposed to do during the checkride? What if the DPE expects me to fully demonstrate a power-on stall and doesn’t accept that the plane just won’t stall?
Has anyone else experienced this issue during their checkride? If so, how did you handle it? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Inevitable-Title7928@reddit
Stall in approach config or prec search
prat20009@reddit
Pitch to 30-35 degrees nose up, like me, and then get an earful from the instructor 😂
Vegetable_Weekend_51@reddit
Yes. We slow to 50-55 kts then add 80% power and pitch up to drop the speed to stall speed. Once the buffeting starts we release back pressure and recover. As the plane will hang buffeting forever without a nose drop.
BigBadPanda@reddit
Two characteristics of a stall are lack of pitch authority and inability to arrest a descent. Although you may not be fully stalled, once you have the control yoke fully aft and you are unable to increase pitch, or stop your descent, you can execute a stall recovery.
benbalooky@reddit
By, "fully stalled" you mean stalling to the point of an uncommanded pitch change, right?
BigBadPanda@reddit
Exceeding the critical angle of attack. That is the only definition of a stall.
benbalooky@reddit
That's not what I'm asking.
How do you define "fully developed" when it comes to stalls.
healthycord@reddit
I think people mean a full stall when the plane “breaks” over as if it’s falling.
BigBadPanda@reddit
There are plenty of planes that don’t behave that way.
mdepfl@reddit
AF447 for example.
benbalooky@reddit
You need to explain what you mean by "fully" stalled. You're saying that it's not when a plane has a pitch moment? You're saying that the definition doesn't apply to all planes?
BigBadPanda@reddit
Make me.
benbalooky@reddit
I'm now convinced that you're simply unable to.
BigBadPanda@reddit
I will never recover from you saying that. How dare you.
benbalooky@reddit
That's what I've heard too.
RevolutionaryWear952@reddit
Really not to be pedantic or that guy.. and yes answer is completely acceptable for WHEN an airplane stalls.. 23.201 has 3 criteria for the actual definition of a stall.. uncontrollable pitch down, activation of stall avoidance device, OR the control reaching the stop.
BigBadPanda@reddit
Pedantic all you want.
A stall is a stall, and that is only one thing: exceeding the critical angle of attack.
You are confusing the characteristics of a stall, which is how we observe an airplane that is stalled. Lack of pitch authority, lack of roll authority, inability to arrest a descent, and buffeting.
brightlife28@reddit
Are you using full power? Last I checked only 75% power is required to demonstrate the maneuver. The same thing happens in the 172. Try not using full power. And don’t let the nose drop until it stalls, too many students let it drop a few degrees when it gets heavy and it gives the wings just enough lift to keep fighting.
FlyingShadow1@reddit
A DPE I send students to doesn't like power-on stalls being done without full power unless you're in a high performance aircraft.
Head_Visit849@reddit
65% power whichive seen is usually 21-2150rpm
MeatServo1@reddit
The O-320 is rated at 160 HP @ max continuous 2700 RPM. 2700 * 0.65 = 1755. I taught students to do 1700-1800 but more spend time chasing around a particular number.
Head_Visit849@reddit
Oh I just used cruise performance charts for percent power at around 3k feet
MeatServo1@reddit
That’s fair. At altitude, more RPM makes less power because of thinner air, but if the maneuver is supposed to simulate a departure stall, then it would always sense to use your local airport’s elevation as a baseline for the power setting. So 2100 might be right for you. I trained and taught near the ocean.
Consistent-Trick2987@reddit
65% power
vyqz@reddit
64%
FlyingShadow1@reddit
You are probably sitting with a very forward CG and thus that is a contributing factor. Slow the plane down to say 60 kts and then pitch up and add full power. That should help throw you into it.
spacecadet2399@reddit
The plane absolutely will stall. What you're probably talking about is getting a real "break" during the stall. That doesn't mean you aren't stalled.
Note that nowhere in the ACS does it say the stall needs to be to a full break. What it says is that you need to "Acknowledge cues of the impending stall and then recover promptly after a full stall occurs." Once you have lost lift over your wings, you are fully stalled - regardless of what nose attitude you're in. If you're getting continuous buffet in a nose-high attitude and losing altitude, you are stalled. Recover. Don't be like the crew of AF447.
I instructed in the PA-28 and yes, it is almost impossible to get it to break on its own. But once you see and feel that you've lost lift, let the nose forward and that is the same as a break; it's just that it's you doing the recovery. A DPE should absolutely not care if the plane's nose doesn't go down by itself; that's not part of the maneuver. The FAA isn't testing your CG or whether the elevator's stalled; they're testing whether the wings are stalled. And they can be stalled in any attitude. The maneuver is just to get yourself into a stall and then properly recover from it.
If you're doing full power, it's probably easier to just do 65%, which is all the ACS requires. But then you do have to be careful that you don't suddenly pitch up too quickly, because then you risk getting into more of an accelerated stall, which isn't what's being tested.
I put about 40 students through this checkride in the PA-28 and I think I only had one fail on any sort of stall, and that was just some random thing like could happen to any student. I taught them all to try for a break but it probably wasn't gonna happen, so just recover once they recognized a loss of lift.
mexicannascar@reddit
Make sure to look back at the tailplane as you approach the stall and watch it wiggle
AlbiMappaMundi@reddit
Make sure you stomp the rudder fully right /s
It's generally easier to perform a power-on stall if you first slow down substantially rather than just jamming in full-power and going nose up when you're at a normal cruise speed. If you think about the scenario that you are emulating (a departure stall after take-off), you're rotating in a PA28 at about 55 kts and accelerating from there. So slow it down to the point that you're nearly in slow flight...THEN apply full power (or as others have pointed out, just 75% power) and nose up. You'll stall much more quickly rather than feeling like you're straining and fighting it.
Gutter_Snoop@reddit
lol I used to teach primary students in Tomahawks, get them all used to the wacky stall characteristics. When they finished primary and wanted to check out in a plane with a back seat, we'd go out in the Archer. I'd demonstrate a stall by pulling power to idle, rolling the trim all the way nose-up, cross my arms and put both feet on the floor. Initially they'd sweat a little bit, but the thing was so stable it barely even wandered heading as it stalled, recovered itself, stalled again, etc.
Such a fantastic airframe.
MeatServo1@reddit
Yes, this is the correct method. Slow down to 60 MPH or so, let the nose drop below the horizon to unload the wing, then add power to about 1700-1800 RPM, pitching to lose 1 mile per hour per second. Very tame, very chill stall. Stay coordinated, maybe just the edge of the ball in line with or a hair past the cage, the airplane should just sort of sit down and return to level pitch attitude. In a 150/152? Prepare for a wild ride lol.
JewishJah69@reddit
i do all my training in the 152s why the hell do these things always feel the need to drop a wing in the power ons 😂
MeatServo1@reddit
Because the engineers were sadists.
Ambitious_Weekend101@reddit
This
JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
This was the way I was taught to do it in a C172.
PilotBurner44@reddit
Any airplane can stall. I would recommend against telling a DPE "it won't stall", "it's hard to stall" or anything to that effect. Might send you down a rabbit hole you don't want to go down. I highly doubt a DPE will want to see you aggressively stalling the airplane, and any DPE worth their rating should know that a PA-28 isn't aggressive in its stalls. Pull all the way back on the yoke and demonstrate a stall. It doesn't need to be spectacular, and it doesn't need to fall out of the sky. Know what the stall characteristics are in case they ask you how you know it was stalling. Talk to your instructor, maybe do some practice on inducing the stall more reliably. I used to also demonstrate power on stalls with about 80-85% power, and told them to offer it on their check rides to the DPE. It's a great example of how DA can affect the stall characteristics with slightly less induced lift. It also makes the stall slightly less aggressive. Again, talk to your instructor to see what is best for you.
JimNtexas@reddit
What the current FAA requirements to perform a power on stall? Used to be you recovered at the first indication of a stall, including the stall warning.
Spartan158@reddit
Less power. I use 2200 in the 172. Also make sure your airspeed is decreasing throughout the entire maneuver. If it isn’t your nose isn’t pitched up enough. Trim helps, but also makes it more difficult to recover.
lefrenchkiwi@reddit
Trimming into the stall sounds like the start of an accident report
Spartan158@reddit
That’s not what I said at all
lefrenchkiwi@reddit
The only thing a student should be told about using trim when setting up for a stalling exercise is leave it alone.
The last thing you want is a student putting trim in during the entry lest they end up with an aeroplane that is then trimmed into an unrecoverable state. You won’t always be around to save the day so better they don’t develop the bad habit to start with.
150_Driver@reddit
I don't think any light piston plane exists that becomes unrecoverable due to excessive trimming, it'll just get real heavy on the controls for recovery. I also don't think that's a bad thing to experience... on my 135 re-currents we intentionally set the plane up to stall itself out on AP to demonstrate what a lack of awareness can do with automation and how it handles when out of trim during the recovery. By intentionally doing that it also makes you cognizant of the fact you may need to re-trim the plane while recovering from a stall where as by never practicing it you might not reach for it leading to a scenario you describe ironically enough.
NPFFTW@reddit
Plus at the very least setting takeoff trim will better simulate a departure stall
lefrenchkiwi@reddit
With the right (or should I say wrong?) combination of aeroplane and student it’s possible to have a situation where the student can’t overpower the trim.
blimeyfool@reddit
Did you intentionally leave out the second part of the sentence that clarifies the risks?
lefrenchkiwi@reddit
No I intentionally ignored it as irrelevant as students shouldn’t be using the trim in this situation anyway, rendering the second part of the original statement redundant.
VolubleWanderer@reddit
More yeet when you yoke.
charlieray@reddit
You should fly a -236 with an O-540. It's lots of fun.
RagingStirfry@reddit
As a person who did a lot of their flight training in piper aircraft. Warrior 2, archer, arrow, Seneca. I can tell you it takes a lot of back on the yoke to get the angle of attack at full power to stall. When it does, it pivots just behind your front seat and can catch you off guard at the stall buffette.
apoplectickitty@reddit
Get that nose up. Waaaaaay up. It’ll stall.
wingedRatite@reddit
getting some flashbacks of trying to pull the yoke out of the panel lmao
BrianAnim@reddit
slow down to rotation speed before you pop in the power, and pull up aggressively. Lots of right rudder.
makgross@reddit
This is the real answer.
Cherokees have benign stall characteristics and will not break until you get a bit rough on it. Power affects the deck angle, but not much on the break. You’ll have the same issue at 65% power or even power off.
If you’re losing a ton of altitude, you’ve stalled even if you don’t observe a break.
There is a contributing factor in that the last bit of elevator requires pulling the yoke up a little bit, not straight back. For all the reduced power guys, I guarantee I can make an Archer break at full power.
primalbluewolf@reddit
I've been meaning to look at the linkages for a while now, still haven't done it. Anyone know if that "upwards pull" at the end is designed in, or the result of wear?
makgross@reddit
It sure seems intentional.
primalbluewolf@reddit
It does, but it just seems weird (to me). Am I missing something obvious?
WhiteoutDota@reddit
I've never had issues doing power on stalls at full power in any archer or warrior in 500 hours of flying them. The new Archers I would fly would always break neutrally/ straight, though the old beat up warriors I fly always drop a wing to the right
BrianAnim@reddit
I have to remind my students they have biceps, use them.
floorya@reddit
It never "snaps" over. Just kinda mushes over .that's one of the things that makes the pa28s so safe. I owned one for a long time.
OrionX3@reddit
Less power
Po-Ta-Toessss@reddit
Remember that the stall is only to first indication, not a full nose over. So, low airspeed, Stall horn, buffeting, mushy controls are all indicators of a stall. Talk yourself through the maneuver. Exactly as you execute it, everything from set up, stall indicator, and recovery. Every single step. So that way when you do the maneuver if something goes wrong you can call it out and the DPE knows for a fact that you know what you’re talking about.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
Incorrect. The ACS specifically allows the DPE to specify it to be performed to a full stall.
Po-Ta-Toessss@reddit
That’s a fair point. The DPE I flew with his gouge was first indication. Fox it immediately. Airspeed, I was thinking of power off stalls, needle drops below the white arc you better believe it’s gonna stall.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
The white arc is not necessarily a sign that it will stall. My schools warrior can get a good 5 or so knots below the white arc before it actually stalls.
Po-Ta-Toessss@reddit
It’s a fair point. I see our Cessnas speed drop to zero and it’s still just floating a little. Then the drop happens. Point is, if you call it out and know your speeds for reference it should pass.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
Why not use an actual indication of a stall such as the horn or buffet?
Po-Ta-Toessss@reddit
Also, try lowering your airspeed prior to starting to the maneuver. Don’t forget your clearing turns.
mig82au@reddit
I don't understand exactly how you are struggling with power on stall, since the propwash gives you extra elevator authority. If you really are only managing a power on mush, then you can enter ballistically: maybe 5 knots above level stall you pitch up hard for a climb. You will rapidly slow and start falling and AoA will overshoot the elevator only steady state AoA. The more excess speed you have to closer you get to turning it into a tail slide, which you don't want to do, but you shouldn't need to get anywhere near that.
I've never come across a plane that won't break dramatically with this ballistic entry, including planes that allegedly "won't stall cleanly".
MachoTurnip@reddit
Don’t go full power
Av8torryan@reddit
Yes it’s very common, especially if you and the instructor is more than 200lbs. pa28’s especially the older 140 models are much more forward cg than aft which which tends to make the nose drop and porpose on recovery more than break and drop, which also adds to the stability of them.
An easy solution is to figure out where your cg is and add some ballast weight to the rear compartment, such as a 50lb sand bag to get the cg to shift back toward the middle if your operating at or near the forward cg limit .
PilotGuy85@reddit
Oh, it’ll stall. You just gotta pull back hard enough.
swark91@reddit
This. Or more precisely fast enough.
OP, what's happening is you're approaching your stall angle of attack too delicately. You get slow enough that you lose the elevator effectiveness needed to continue increasing your pitch, and you end up mushing. You need to pull back into that stalled AoA while you still have enough airflow over the tail for your elevator to do what you want it to.
Dmackman1969@reddit
Had this problem too until I stopped doing 100% power. 65-70% works and my CFI used a good saying from my past.
FINISH HIM from mortal combat…I wouldn’t pitch up enough. Those two things combined I got a solid nose drop every time doing that in that exact aircraft.
mrboxeebox@reddit
I learned the first half of my PPL in a PA28 151 and 161. Had no trouble with power on stalls 🤷🏼♂️
Kollsman_Window@reddit
Full power, heels on the horizon with right rudder?
No-Attempt9354@reddit
1) Slow to and trim for around 70 kts while holding altitude 2) Begin to pitch up about 5-10 degrees first 3) Increase throttle to full while simultaneously continuing to pitch up to about 20 degrees pitch. When you increase throttle do this SLOWLY. Students love to cram it for some reason. Reasonable pace is to increase it to full over the course of 5 seconds.
Don’t forget the right rudder.
Source: 1200hrs instruction in PA28s. Never had a student mess it up on a checkride or stage check
IllustriousAd1591@reddit
75% power and hold that sucker at 25-30 degrees until it DROPS. Bleed off a bit of airspeed before you start the maneuver too
adventuresofh@reddit
They’re a very stable airplane and you have to force it to stall. The one I fly you have to pull back aggressively and even then, it won’t really break.
One-Community-1387@reddit
Just did my check ride in a pa-28 140. Never had any issues getting it to power on stall. Of course on my check ride it refused to stall lol luckily my DPE said “this is good enough” and I recovered and moved on with the check ride.
im_not_really_him@reddit
Just did my check ride in a pa-28 140. Never had any issues getting it to power on stall. Of course on my check ride it refused to stall lol luckily my DPE said “this is good enough” and I recovered and moved on with the check ride.
Jwylde2@reddit
It’s harder to stall it the lighter you are. If you’re light on fuel and cargo when you’re solo, it’s near impossible.
Go out with full fuel with you + examiner and you’ll find it much easier to stall it.
Chubbers44@reddit
Pull back as hard as you can and smash rudder in one direction, do that and just hold. You’ll have fun
Manifestgtr@reddit
Oof, i feel your pain…the RV-12, even at 80% power likes to hang for days before the break on a power on stall. For my checkride, I simply recovered “at the first sign of a stall” and it was perfectly fine. A little buffet started to happen, we began to descend (at a 20-25 degree pitch up), i said “there it is”, recovered and we went right along to the next thing. Earlier I had a stage check instructor specify taking the stall to a full break but that was the only time that ever happened.
Barbell_Baker@reddit
Keep it around 2200 RPM and establish a 20 degree nose up attitude, just dont forget to work the rudders.
It's able to stall at full power but you gotta really pitch up for it, when I went on my checkride the DPE had me go 2200 RPM for it.
link_dead@reddit
Less power, or more altitude, check the ACS and if the DPE calls you on it show it to him, you can use 65% power to demonstrate the maneuver.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
My checkride is in two weeks, and I’m still struggling with the power-on stall. My instructor says it’s hard to make a PA-28 stall, which is a good thing because it’s a very stable plane. While I agree that flying a plane less prone to stalling is great, I can’t help but wonder: What am I supposed to do during the checkride? What if the DPE expects me to fully demonstrate a power-on stall and doesn’t accept that the plane just won’t stall?
Has anyone else experienced this issue during their checkride? If so, how did you handle it? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
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