Automaker group files lawsuit to block US automatic emergency braking rule.
Posted by Juicyjackson@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 96 comments
Posted by Juicyjackson@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 96 comments
racks1700@reddit
How about teaching people how to properly drive?
Pan7h3r@reddit
What's the harm in having a backup it that fails? 1 out of 93 Americans are going to die in a car accident it's terrifying.
To be clear, this isn't a uniquely American problem
retroPencil@reddit
I think the US would have an easier time taking guns away than taking driving away.
BannytheBoss@reddit
Owning a gun is a constitutional right ... driving is a privilege.
retroPencil@reddit
/r/woosh
gumol@reddit
US driver license tests are a proper joke, but I don’t see any effort to make them harder actually succeeding
OldManBearPig@reddit
The tests are a problem, but not the biggest problem. Traffic enforcement is a bigger problem where I live.
But also recurring tests should be a thing, especially for people who are 65+ years old.
TooManyCarsandCats@reddit
Oof. I was with you in the first half.
withoutapaddle@reddit
Yeah, I admit I drive pretty quick, but even I think enforcement needs to be stepped up big time. I don't even like cops... like at all, but I wish they would actually TAKE ACTION in areas that I know they know are a problem.
You only have to live in my city for 2 weeks to realize that people, especially semi trucks, running red lights by 3, 5, sometimes 7+ seconds is a major major hazard.
They could sit near one of the main intersections and they would literally hand out red light tickets faster than they could finish writing the previous one. They'd make a killing.
They just don't care.
Yesterday I drove past a speed trap cop just watching everyone fly by at 15mph+ over the limit. He didn't care.
A huge crackdown across the whole country should be instituted to set some "new norms", instead of just accepting this post-COVID insanity of 10-20mph over speed limit being accepted.
I remember the days when 6 mph over was still worth letting your foot off the gas if you saw a cop... and 75% of people weren't distracted by cell phones either.
1988rx7T2@reddit
Yeah let’s get rid of anti lock brakes! And power steering! Oh and starter motors too! Gotta crank it by hand now.
jalopaf2@reddit
Or just give consumers and manufacturers the choice
1988rx7T2@reddit
We don’t give people the choice on backup cameras, because people were running over children. And we don’t give a choice on stability control because people were hydroplaning.
jalopaf2@reddit
Fair enough, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this but at some point I've had enough mandated regulation. Clearly I'm in the minority.
uberdosage@reddit
History has shown that without regulations corporations will do the absolute bare minimum. No way companies would be putting in any real effort for emissions reductions unless required by government agencies. We would still have leaded gasoline if it wasn't banned by law.
In fact we still have leaded gasolines in private aircraft fuel because it hasn't been banned.
STRMfrmXMN@reddit
Problem is, there's already enough regulation about this sort of driving misbehavior, and we're still seeing a rise in pedestrian deaths and such. AEB is great for turning big rear-end collisions into smaller ones, which is all you can really ask for it to do properly. The fact that a lot of these can automatically brake for pedestrians is huge. Pedestrians can act correctly and still be hit by an inattentive driver. An attentive driver may not be able to react in time to a bicyclist or pedestrian doing a total switcheroo on direction in the middle of the road. Even in countries with much more stringent driving tests and whatnot, people still have cell phones and the inability to stop looking at them when driving.
A lot of the early AEB systems were pretty terrible, I'll admit, but they've come a long way since 2016 or so. I think this sort of thing would have to be regulated because it's unlikely to be the selling point for a consumer on a car, and it costs manufacturers money to implement it into the cars.
Satanic-mechanic_666@reddit
Should have made it illegal to run over children and get into wrecks instead.
TimeRemove@reddit
Because consumers are too stupid on average. For example No.1, see the people arguing against safety features like AEB.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Holy strawman Batman
We can have modern safety features and still pass laws that hold drivers to a higher standard
1988rx7T2@reddit
Laws are passed at the state level, nothing will happen if you wait on 50 states. There are laws Against distracted driving already. They don’t work.
Lord_Vas@reddit
Every vehicle I've driven with automatic braking has only activated for false positives. Shadows. Cars well ahead of me making a right turn from a dedicated lane. Cars whipping a hard and fast right turn into the lane next to me. I turn that mess off the moment I get into my car every time. I don't want to get rear-ended because the dumb computer made a mistake.
2012 Audi A6 sedan and 2020 Honda Civic sedan. The Audi was the worst offender. It was a 2012, so go figure.
I've never had a close call with pedestrians despite the best efforts of a few smooth brains.
BannytheBoss@reddit
This 100%. One of my cars has it and it has never prevented an accident but it has nearly caused a few and I'm sure some people thought I was brake checking them. Fortunately, I was able to deactivate it.
TrptJim@reddit
This is a weird way of observing this without context. How many accidents have you been in? Is it more than zero?
Lord_Vas@reddit
When I was in the Audi it was egregious. That thing HATED shadows from bridges.
TheGT1030MasterRace@reddit
Jam the accelerator to the floor and release it before the engine responds.
withoutapaddle@reddit
It's interesting to hear this, because this is the exact same fear I had buying a car with AEB, but it hasn't falsely activated even once in like 7,000 miles of driving on my F-150.
I was prepared to disable it, but figured I should give it the benefit of the doubt first, and have been VERY pleasantly surprised.
Now... auto-start/stop on the other hand, which a nightmare. My truck will literally shut off the engine when I come to a stop in my driveway for 1 second, then restart it again when I put it into Park, then shut off again because I'm turning the key off to leave. Braindead.
Lord_Vas@reddit
If we're being completely honest, the purpose of auto braking systems is to save idiots from themselves and have fewer automotive deaths. They're more of a mitigation system for people on their phones.
As people have stated earlier, auto braking systems are most effective below 45 mph and in areas with heavy foot traffic. Designing those systems to auto brake at hwy speeds isn't really going to cut it. I wouldn't be surprised if the false positive problems many people have are due to bad code for trying to avoid hwy speed collisions.
Engine auto start-stop is such a waste of time. All it's going to do is be inconvenient for drivers and increase wear and tear on key parts.
If they're so concerned about reducing fuel usage, they should put more focus on improving engine fuel consumption rates and releasing more hybrids.
Lord knows a fuel efficient V8 hybrid would be nice.
biggsteve81@reddit
Look around the next time you are at a traffic light (or in slow-moving traffic) and see how many people are on their phones. I don't care if AEB saves idiots from themselves, I want it to save ME from the idiots.
gimpwiz@reddit
As with a handful of technology advancements and regulations, I am firmly on team hypocrite: I will keep driving my stuff, but I want other people to have it.
:)
gimpwiz@reddit
As much as stop-start annoys me, I have to say that they've more or less worked the kinks out some time ago. Beefy starters will outlive the old ones even being used 20x as often and modern ECUs fire a warm engine up pretty much immediately, and warm oil that's fully coated the internal parts means oil+start related wear shouldn't really be there anymore.
stav_and_nick@reddit
"In 2016, 20 automakers voluntarily agreed to make automatic emergency braking standard on nearly all U.S. vehicles by 2022. By late 2023, all 20 had equipped at least 95% of vehicles with AEB, but critics say there is no way to ensure effectiveness without government regulations."
Most vehicles are equipped with AEB; why is it such an issue to mandate it for the stragglers?
Ilddit@reddit
They want to make it un-overridable. That can be dangerous in certain cases.
biggsteve81@reddit
Most AEB won't stop a vehicle from 62mph without resulting in a crash. The systems are pretty good below 45mph, but highway speeds is a struggle.
Chill_Vibe10@reddit
Oh I’m sure they could get the vehicles to stop from highway speed. The problem would be the technology has a hard time interpreting and reacting at speeds that fast that it’d cause a lot of false positive vehicle breaking events.
withoutapaddle@reddit
Yeah, my F-150 has it, and while it has been ALMOST completely flawless, one time it activated the warning (not the actual braking) due to what I believe was some steam rising from a sewer grate around a curve (so it looked like I was driving directly towards a large gray object as I drove around the curve).
Freaked me the fuck out, because it was loud and I'd never hard it before.
That said, I still won't disable it, because I personally know at least 1 person who was saved from an accident by AEB. There are still those nearly impossible situations like looking over your shoulder to check traffic before merging onto a freeway. If the person in front of you hits their brakes at the end of the onramp at the same moment you check traffic, you're fucked.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
That’s why it’s important for sensors to be visual AND IR/LIDAR/etc for redundancy and cross referencing
Crazy to me that in the modern era, Tesla wants to go back to full visual sensors for everything
withoutapaddle@reddit
Tesla wants to do whatever they can get away with, regardless of ACTUAL safety. You couldn't pay me to put my kid in the backseat of a Tesla. Tesla's hubris in design and false advertising (eg. trapping occupants in a fire, or "autopilot") has literally killed more people than the Ford Pinto, which still to this day is one of the most notorious cars in history for deaths caused by the fuel tank rupturing in rear-enders.
Side note: How are you liking your '23 GTI? My Mk7 is the best car I've ever owned.
willpc14@reddit
Not to mention their Autopilot likes to run over motorcyclists at night
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
I enjoy it alot. The handling improvements with the Mk8 generation have been insane. The LSD is excellent in hard corners and being able to get an extra 15 horsepower off of 87 octane is really nice too. The Mk8 switched to a new, stiffer, lighter platform so they could add more stuff (apparently an extra 50lbs of sound deadening material as an example) but weighs the same
My only complaint is that while there's the same systems as the Mk7 (stability control, traction control driving modes, etc) they're all behind a couple layers of menus compared to the Mk7 that had physical buttons that you could press once. From cold start its no problem, it's just annoying when you remember to change those settings only while you're driving and now you missed that fun road/turn. On the flip side there is an "ESC Sport" mode now that lets you spin the tires but will kick on if something dangerous were about to happen
I think you can fix alot of those with ODB though so we'll see
withoutapaddle@reddit
Yeah, I optioned it on my Mk7 also, and it's so nice, especially when we get a ton of snow here.
Interesting to hear that they were able to shave weight and use it to improve sound deadening. That's smart. IMO, German cars need to feel refined. Even for VW, which isn't considered a luxury brand, feeling a little higher quality than average is part of the draw.
Oh man, the lack of physical buttons for assists would drive my insane! I literally pop traction control off several times a drive sometimes, when I'm on snow, gravel, etc and don't want the ECU cutting power mid-corner when I'm driving spiritedly on loose surfaces. There's a hairpin near my home that has long sight lines, typically no traffic around, and is about 300°+, and in the fresh snow, it's perfect to tap TCS off, rip the handbrake, over-rotate, and then widen out your arc with power on the drive wheels.
Went to visit the grandparents with my kid the other day, and they have a huge 80x80' dirt parking area, which was covered in about 6" of fresh powder. She was absolutely squealing with delight as we did some donuts in reverse, lol.
I definitely tweaked a bunch with OBDeleven, but it's been a long time, so I haven't even looked at what can be done these days on the Mk7 or Mk8, for that matter.
Anyway, sounds like we're both having fun! ;)
Thanks for the info about the Mk8. I hadn't heard those details before.
gimpwiz@reddit
Our Explorer yells at me occasionally. Maybe 25% of the time due to a sketchy situation, but usually when nobody is even close to an accident. If it auto braked for me, it would be going right back.
gimpwiz@reddit
Braking*
Jpotter145@reddit
Had a false positive that nearly cause a wreck in our Subaru, now I turn it off everytime I get in the car.
We were in moderate traffic on a southbound highway and I was preparing to exit and merge onto an eastbound highway. Traffic was moving \~ 55mph and the far right lane was very slow probably around 15mph. I started merging right to eventually join the slow \~15mph lane, having two lanes to cross first - again all of these lanes are moving fast despite the traffic at about 55.
As I start to merge into the closest lane from the slow moving lane, all of a sudden the AEB system kicked in. I was merging behind a car and I only can guess it somehow also picked up on the adjacent lane's traffic being much slower and it SLAMS on the brakes. Keep in mind I'm mid lane change and there is a car not far behind me @ 55mph. It's only a split second but the car behind me slams it's brakes and just avoids a collision, then he (understandably) pulls next to me screaming and giving me the finger while I'm like "I'm sorry" and just had to appear to be a confused jackass that's also a terrble driver. It took me a minute to realize what happened (in the moment I originally thought the engine seized or something) and that it was actually the AEB system that kicked in. We immediately pulled over to lookup how to turn it off; unfortunely we have to do it everytime the car is started.
sc0lm00@reddit
Our CR-V occasionally randomly brakes. Always fun cruising along and it thinks you're going to hit an overpass or something. Luckily it hasn't happened in heavy traffic.
Guac_in_my_rarri@reddit
My pilot did the same. I got it recalibrated and no issues. Prior it had almost gotten me into two accidents.
biggsteve81@reddit
Which is exactly why these manufacturers are suing to block the rule. They said it isn't currently possible.
Chill_Vibe10@reddit
Yeah, I guess my point was it’s technically possible to meet the rule. But the trade off of more false breaking events is a massive dissatisfaction for drivers and may even lead to more collisions.
tommyisaboss@reddit
For all the shit we give stellantis/FCA, they at least gave me the option in my truck that had AEB to disable the actual intervention braking but leave the warning on. So if something happened it would just scream at me instead of immediately slamming on the brakes.
Guac_in_my_rarri@reddit
I wish Honda would allow the AEB off and warning on. The AEB has almost gotten me in 2 accidents.
Barkansas19@reddit
Struggle maybe.
But for the completely oblivious/ impaired / distracted driver, using AEB would result in slamming into the back of a car at say, 20? 30?
That's better than 65, 75?
biggsteve81@reddit
Definitely. But the automakers are suing because the current regulation requires them to come to a complete stop from 62 mph without hitting the object. Currently I don't know of any car that can reliably do that.
EndPsychological890@reddit
Not at the following distances the average person drives at.
gimpwiz@reddit
And not with the tires people put on their cars...! Or don't put, until far too late.
byerss@reddit
Sure but a crash at 25MPH after autonomous emergency braking is still better than a crash at 62MPH because someone was looking at their phone.
roburrito@reddit
The rule requires the aes to stop from 62mph without a strike.
blueingreen85@reddit
Isn’t that just physics though?
Left4DayZGone@reddit
Because it fucking sucks and I don’t want it. Maybe if I spent $100,000 on a car I could get one that doesn’t get me ass-rammed by a truck because some snow made the system panic.
I’d settle for the option to toggle it off WITHOUT it automatically turning back on.
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
Afaik from what I've seen, Tesla may be the only company that allows this. You can turn it off completely and it'll just stay off until turned back on. I have mine set to give loud warning beeps but to never automatically brake. On cruise control it'll still do it if someone whips out in front of me, but it's not violent like my parents subaru and it only happens with adaptive cruise control on.
Left4DayZGone@reddit
I rented a ‘22 Pacifica Hybrid and drove it in LA rush hour traffic. I was in full control and sometimes had to make quick stops due to traffic suddenly halting… but instead of a quick stop, the Pacifica decided to do full on panic stops with alarms going nuts. Almost got rear ended multiple times because of how it jammed on the brakes when only a moderate stop was needed.
Like, just let me drive motherfucker, I drive demolition figure 8 races, I know what the fuck I’m doing.
EndPsychological890@reddit
I'm a mechanic, autobrake in a shop is a fucking nightmare sometimes. Almost entirely false detections. I absolutely fucking despise new cars, but their dogshit reliability and 50 million safety and luxury features pay my bills I guess, but I'm not buying one anytime soon. My wife sure whatever, but I'm replacing my DD with something 7 years older to pair with my 96 truck lol.
i-like-foods@reddit
Because AEB is horrible. And on top of that, if it’s widespread, it will make people worse drivers. “Safety” features improve safety only in the short term. In the long term, driver behavior adjusts to compensate. You know what would make driving a lot safer? A ban on seatbelts and a sharpened steel spike in the middle of the steering wheel.
I’m partly joking, but driving should FEEL unsafe so people focus and pay attention. Cars that make drivers feel safe are a bad thing.
avoidhugeships@reddit
Because these systems have flaws and not everyone wants them.
Juicyjackson@reddit (OP)
Not sure.
There are not many left that don't have it. And of those cars that don't have it, most will be dead before this the rule takes affect(manual M2, M3, M4, CT4V Blackwing, CT5V Blackwing, etc)
Solon_City_Schools@reddit
Fwiw my Miata has AEB and a manual transmission, it’s definitely possible.
1988rx7T2@reddit
So does my Mustang.
wsdmskr@reddit
And my Mazda3.
Arabmoney77@reddit
My M4 100% has it and it works great
kyzersoze84@reddit
Most of the “safety” features being installed seems to be making drivers more complacent in actual driving.
Juicyjackson@reddit (OP)
The Alliance for Automotive Innovation, representing General Motors (GM.N), opens new tab, Toyota Motor (7203.T), opens new tab, Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), opens new tab and other automakers, said the rule finalized in April by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is "practically impossible with available technology." The group asked the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia to overturn the rule. NHTSA declined to comment. The alliance said the requirement that cars and trucks must be able to stop and avoid striking vehicles in front of them at up to 62 miles per hour (100 kph) is unrealistic, and it unsuccessfully asked NHTSA last year to reconsider the rule.
bigbura@reddit
Need the stats on how distracted driving is increased by these 'driving aid' systems to provide proper perspective on these kinds of mandates. The "Good Idea Fairy" needs to do their research and show their work before floating ideas.
I get it, we are trying to mitigate the effects of cell phones and distracted driving. But human nature says a percentage of folks pay less attention to driving with these systems, 'the car's got it' being the attitude of some of these texting drivers. At least that's what I'm hearing from our kids riding with friends and acquaintances, hearing these others bragging about doing this.
WyoGuy2@reddit
So… has anyone successfully designed a car that can do it or not? That’s really the question here.
1988rx7T2@reddit
There are suppliers such as Mobileye and Bosch who can meet the regulation, it’s just that the OEMs want to use some old ass system with grainy iPhone 3 style cameras because it’s cheaper.
WyoGuy2@reddit
Yeah. If their argument is that it’s too expensive, fine, they can make that case, but they shouldn’t claim it’s impossible when it isn’t.
1988rx7T2@reddit
The people who sell the systems aren’t part of the lobbying effort naturally.
Human_Contribution56@reddit
I was driving a rental car once with that awesome tech, on a flyover to get onto the interstate and suddenly it kicked it and almost caused me to get into an accident. Not only did it scare the crap out of me because I had no clue what was going on, but I was goosing it at the time and could feel the back end get light, so then all the other nanny controls jumped in.
TheGT1030MasterRace@reddit
Did slamming the accelerator to the floor override it?
Hutchicles@reddit
I turned it off. I got tired of it slamming on my brakes and swerving when a car would pull in front of me or be slowing down and I was fairly close.
jzr171@reddit
If I ever get a car with that it's getting shut off. I do not want it. It's a danger to everyone. Luckily my 2023 Challenger doesn't have it.
awesometroy@reddit
That's the stupidest thing I've heard in awhile, it's there to save you ass when you least expect it. I have it on my charger, and there's 0 reasons to turn it off.
jzr171@reddit
I had it in a rental once. It was the most annoying thing ever. It kept going off at random times. That and lane assist. It was correcting things that did not need correcting. It really makes you feel like you don't have control and it really can lead to accidents.
1988rx7T2@reddit
It’s offered
Page 22 https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/brochures/dodge/2023-challenger.pdf
jzr171@reddit
Interesting. The one I have doesn't have it luckily. Or if it does, it was already off when I got it.
cloudguy-412@reddit
Meanwhile we still can’t get adaptive headlight, and there are no limits on brightness or height of headlights
AndroidUser37@reddit
360 lives over 330 million people is 0.0001% of the population. Raising the cost of all cars over that seems hardly worth it.
WyoGuy2@reddit
And 24,000 injuries. Some of which are probably life altering. With the cost of healthcare and auto insurance in this country it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the economics work out.
(Looking at it through a purely economic lens, obviously human lives and quality of life are tough factors to weigh).
Drzhivago138@reddit
In 2020 FEMA actually put a dollar value on a human life: $7.5 million.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Really putting the statement ”I’d kill for 7.5 million dollars” to the test
WyoGuy2@reddit
Thanks. Yeah so with that theoretical value it would save $2.6 billion a year in human lives alone, probably billions more in property damage and healthcare costs.
ClickKlockTickTock@reddit
Yea but come on its juat a few people guys, right? Fuck them
MetaTrombonist@reddit
Finally someone standing up for the little guy car manufacturers against the big pedestrian lobby!
saturnuranusmars@reddit
I almost got whiplash when my car slammed the brakes on its own randomly because it sensed something. It was the CT4 blackwing. You could imagine how hard that thing braked.
Juicyjackson@reddit (OP)
Your problem is buying an Auto Blackwing.
/s.
Manual doesn't have the auto braking.
saturnuranusmars@reddit
You're right. Now back to the topic on hand
Consistent_Jury_5839@reddit
Name and shame. If the automaker lobbyists do win in blocking the requirement, we can always keep utilizing the name and shame game by the consumer industry. The IIHS is an insurance funded group that has been testing AEB systems for years. Plus, IIHS improves the test challenge every so few years. All these brands like to tout their IIHS awards anyways when they win on safety scores through them. And they’re sheepish when they get called out for low safety scores. I think it’s a great consumer tool that objectively analyzes what’s on the market. Unsafe? Move along to something else that’s proven safer.
Left4DayZGone@reddit
Until the technology is perfect and affordable to repair, don’t mandate it. Simple.
Based on my personal experiences with it, it’s far from perfect and I don’t want it yet.
MrAnalogRobot@reddit
I will say, I have never had braking intervention from a car that was helpful, and a couple of times, was a bit panic inducing. I think the technology is trash anyway.
It doesn't mean it doesn't have an overall positive impact, I'm not sure if it does. But for drivers paying attention and needing to make quick maneuvers to avoid an accident, it can definitely be more of a hindrance than a help. I turn it off whenever possible. Same with lane keeping, which across brands has induced unexpected and dangerous corrections when misreading traffic lines.
talejandro@reddit
Rules like these may have good intentions, but will make all vehicles more expensive.