Ukraine sets a condition [that Poland must honour UPA members who died on Polish territory]. Another flare-up of Polish-Ukrainian relations
Posted by Britstuckinamerica@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 50 comments
Britstuckinamerica@reddit (OP)
DeepL Translation:
The Polish side is to commemorate the soldiers of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) who were killed on its territory, including in the Podkarpacie region, and in return Ukraine will agree to exhume and bury the victims of the Volhynian crime. When President Volodymyr Zelensky's visit to Poland was underway, the Ukrainian foreign minister revealed the planned solution to the historical dispute.
"Our approach is that we also demand a dignified commemoration of Ukrainian memory on Polish territory. Now let's wait for the decisions of the Polish side," said the head of the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry, Andriy Sybiha, in an interview with the European Pravda portal.
He added that Ukrainian and Polish experts have provided each other with lists of memorial sites that both sides are interested in commemorating. "The restoration of the Ukrainian monument on Mount Monastyr is also on the agenda," the Ukrainian minister said. To clarify, there is a plaque in Monasterz (Podkarpackie Voivodeship) dedicated to UPA soldiers who died fighting NKVD units.
The interview sparked controversy in Poland, as the transactional 'something for something' approach does not appeal to the relatives of the victims of the crime. The text appeared when Volodymyr Zelenski was visiting the Prime Minister and the President. A 'breakthrough' was expected in matters relating to history. As we reported, the theme of the exhumation of the Polish victims of the crime was not prominent in the politicians' statements.
Renovation of the UPA monument part of the agreement?
"I knew that Sibiga would say something like that in Ukraine. It was wrong that the topic of the Volhynian crime was included in our campaign in the presidential elections. We focus on the negatives, when we started to demand too, well, the other side will demand too and this leads to nothing, to nothing good," comments Jan Piekło, former Polish ambassador to Ukraine, for the WP. He revealed that Ukraine was already putting things this way in 2016-2019, when he worked in Kyiv.
"Personally, I think that this is not the time for this kind of pushback, mounting all this into a presidential election. It is necessary to think about bringing the discussion on historical issues after the end of the war and after effective assistance to Ukraine, but not about who should exhume whom and how," Pieklo goes on to say.
The former diplomat notes that Zelensky's statement that Karol Navrotsky should practice because he will have to fight became "part of the election package" during the visit. "The Ukrainian president allowed himself to be maneuvered into supporting one of the candidates," Rafal Trzaskowski said. "Maybe this was supposed to be the success story of the current government?" the interviewee added.
Ministry of Culture and National Heritage on cooperation with Ukraine
The Ukrainian authorities have so far granted one permit for the exhumation of murdered Poles. On 13 January, the Freedom and Democracy Foundation announced that it would start exhumation work of the victims of the crime in Puzniki, Ukraine, in April this year. There are about 20 such requests pending from the Polish side, Andrzej Duda informed.
In turn, Volodymyr Zelenski, asked by journalists about the Volhynia issue, replied: "We should go forward in our relations, look forward. Our ministries of culture are already working (on the exhumation issue - ed.). I am glad that they are developing materials and I see that we are moving forward all the time on all issues. We should move forward together."
The issue of Polish-Ukrainian talks on the commemoration of the victims was referred to by the Polish Ministry of Culture and National Heritage.
"The parties exchanged information on the places where, from the point of view of each side, it would be appropriate to carry out search and exhumation work first, or to give them additional care. Thus, it was important for us to respond to the expectations of the public, in particular the relatives of those who were victims of wars and repressions," stated the Ministry of Culture in a press release.
"The parties are currently carrying out an analysis of the resulting list, as well as verifying the status of the implementation of the search requests and exhumation consent requests submitted so far," officials added.
In November 2024, Minister Radoslaw Sikorski and Andriy Sibiha confirmed that there were no obstacles to search and exhumation work. However, later the head of the Ukrainian IPN, Anton Drowobycz, in a statement to a Ukrainian internet portal, made permission for the exhumation of Polish victims conditional on the repair of plaques commemorating members of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) at the site of their grave in Monasterz in the Podkarpackie Voivodeship.
The site has been controversial for years among representatives of patriotic and veteran circles. This is because a plaque was erected in the cemetery in 1990 to honour the fallen soldiers of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. They died in clashes with security forces in 1945-1947. In the 1990s, this monument became the subject of protests from the Polish side, which considers it a commemoration of the formation responsible for crimes against the Polish population. In 2023, some of the UPA tombstones were damaged.
The Volhynian Massacre was a genocide committed by Ukrainian nationalists of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) against the Polish population living in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia in the years 1943-1945. The action culminated in the so-called Bloody Sunday, when the largest wave of murders of Poles took place in about 100 villages in Volhynia. In total, around 100,000 Poles were killed.
Britstuckinamerica@reddit (OP)
What on earth is Ukraine's MFA doing?! Croatia doesn't demand Serbia "honour" the Ustaše; Serbia doesn't demand Albania or Bosnia honour Milosevic or Radic; even Russia denied Katyn then admitted guilt instead of demanding the perpetrators be honoured. I cannot fathom why Ukraine is so arrogant about this issue to their most passionate supporter
Urbain19@reddit
Ukraine got a taste of western aid, it went to their head and now they think they’re the most important country in the world
friedrichlist@reddit
I have been working with the Ukrainian government for over 5 years, I believe, in different roles, and let me tell you one thing:
70–80% of the people there are completely incompetent and only work because someone from the inside referred them.
For example, I was involved in emergency response with the UN, and on various occasions, I was approached and basically told to just hand over the money while they “handled” everything else themselves. Another instance was a proposal to build a waste recycling plant, while half the population (and likely even more, based on provable statistics) is living below the poverty line, with zero support for internally displaced persons. Oh, mate, don’t even get me started.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Next_Yesterday_1695@reddit
> What on earth is Ukraine's MFA doing?
Ukrainian ambassador called the German chancellor a "liver sausage". What do you expect? All that while Germany is a second-biggest Ukraine supporter.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
I mean, the current albeit expired president of Ukraine was (is?) a comedian who played piano with his shlong on Russian TV. There are also rumours of his coke use which he developed while extensively working in Moscow. Whaaat? Yes, Zelensky who blames all Russians, Russian culture, etc for years filled the Russian budget with taxes.
So, it's obvious that his government is filled with equally incompetent individuals. The one ambassador you mentioned who goes by the name of Melnyuk keeps insulting Germany on a regular basis.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
It makes more sense from the perspective that the fascists maintained control of western Europe after WWII, albeit under a different banner. The whole of Europe should be demanding that Ukraine allow Poland recover their dead without exception, yet here we are.
Lawd_Fawkwad@reddit
Ukraine is once again failing to understand that they're a glorified pawn being supported due to the goodwill of NATO and its allies rather than the queen who needs to be protected no matter what the cost.
While the Poles as a people may feel sympathetic to Ukraine, as a matter of state affairs Warsaw does not harbor genuine concern for Kyiv.
They are supporting Ukraine because it's a way to strike back against their #1 historical enemy and they don't want a Russian puppet on their doorstep, but even if Ukraine were to fall 8 hours from now, nothing would fundamentally change for Poland as they're still under the protective umbrella of NATO and the EU no matter what happens on the other side of their border.
This is just a long list of incidents where Zelensky and his government are confusing being allies of convenience with genuine importance, ditto for them freaking the fuck out at most of Asia, Africa, the Middle East and Latin America for choosing to sit on the fence rather than take sides on a war in another continent that does not directly affect them.
Ukraine should be doing everything it can to garner sympathy and goodwill as Trump is poised to take office and certain projections show that their European partners will be more important than ever.
Demanding that Poland honor a group that committed crimes against their people is a misstep as it needlessly reduces goodwill from the Polish side while giving them nothing in return aside from nationalist headlines that will be moot if it causes Warsaw to pull away even if slightly.
MonsutAnpaSelo@reddit
"Ukraine is once again failing to understand that they're a glorified pawn"
yes and the big bad CIA rules the world with its omnipotent and omnipresent powers
how about we grow up and recognise Ukraine as an independent country, with its own peoples, culture and history? rather then a bloody chess piece without a will of its own
MDAlastor@reddit
Having own people, culture and mythology doesn't make a country independent.
MonsutAnpaSelo@reddit
You know, Im from Britain, we used to think like that too, that the uncivilised nations needed to be educated, conquered, their ugly cultures and practises vanquished, after all why do they deserve to be independent? nearly everyone on the globe agrees that it wasnt a very good thing when we did it. so let me ask, why should we let the Russians have a crack?
MDAlastor@reddit
I'm not sure if you are creating a strawman with the purpose or just misunderstanding me so I'll elaborate.
Unlike Brits/Chinese or Brits/African dynamics in relations it's not popular in Russia to consider Ukrainians "lesser human beings", "orks", "savages" etc. Ukraine and Russia were parts of the one country for several hundreds of years and people were intermarried for another thousand of years.
Also the independence of a country is not a cultural or moral thing but rather a function of abilities of said country to project its power or block others to project their power. Ukraine doesn't have such abilities for a multitude of reasons. Also Ukrainian elites are not striving for independence at all. Changing owners while making your leash shorter and stronger is not a step to gain independence at all, it's a step to find richer owner to sell yourself to. Independence in something you deserve by being brave, strong and a bit lucky not diverse, inclusive and cute.
PS. Britain btw is a good example of how you can be absolutely not independent and still kinda ok. Ukraine before 2014 had only one problem stopping it to be rich and potentially independent in the future - corruption comparable to what Russia had in the 90s.
sqlfoxhound@reddit
Factually wrong. Russians have always considered Ukrainians to be "lesser Russians".
Im Russian/Ukrainian.
Youre full of shit.
chambreezy@reddit
Peak naïvety.
MonsutAnpaSelo@reddit
nah mate, grow a moral backbone because their isnt going to be a just peace so long as ukraine is seen as a football to be kicked around by other nations
chambreezy@reddit
I think you're confusing what reality with ideology.
No country should be used as a pawn, but they are being used that way, plain and simple, do you disagree?
Al-Guno@reddit
An independent country, with its own peoples, culture and history. At the front lines, with limited moves and which can be sacrificed for a more powerful piece if the conditions are right.
inspired_corn@reddit
That’s a funny (and extremely naive) definition of “growing up” you’ve got there
MonsutAnpaSelo@reddit
yeah, it has respecting the will and intentions of millions of people in ukraine, who were born and live there, and that perhaps they can do things for themselves. Far too many people have taken on the american disease of helioproctosis. they have their heads so far up the USAs bum they think they simultaneously control the world and are incompetent at it. and have lost the ability to respect the basic things our fathers thought were good ideas, like not invading other nations because you want land and geoploitical power. Atleast the nazis believed there was a greater racial motive, the Russians just want to turn their neighbour into a puppet so they can be poor and stupid together
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Our fathers taught us something different. And your fathers forgot the faces of theirs.
Lawd_Fawkwad@reddit
The only one going on about crackpot CIA conspiracies is you mate.
Those things are not mutually exclusive : ukraine can be an independent country with free will, and still a geopolitical pawn in the context of this war.
The Cuban Missile Crisis is the classic example.
Seeking to protect themselves from US intervention, Havan struck a deal with the USSR to host nuclear missiles in their country, the USSR didn't foist them on Cuba, but it all came in the wider context of the US stationing missiles in Turkey.
The blockade happened, the world almost came to nuclear war, and in the end Cuba was left without the protection of USSR nuclear weapons, but forever marred in the eyes of the US government as an existential communist threat on their doorstep.
Did Cuba not have free will and all the shit you yap about? No, they chose to host the missiles, but they were used as a pawn and left naked in the town square once the USSR and the USA got what they wanted out of the crisis.
Ukraine is in a similar situation.
The Ukrainian people want to fight I never even implied that the CIA is pushing them to the front or some crazy bullshit like that.
Still, they are surviving off the goodwill of NATO and it's allies, and despite the rhetoric Ukraine is an expendable proxy that is being used to reduce Russian military capabilities with minimal human, economic, and political costs to the bloc.
When it's all said and done, win or lose this war will not directly affect Poland, or the USA, or Canada, or Australia, or any EU/NATO country at that. But Ukraine will have to pay the bill for having acted as a proxy for the interests of Russia's main adversary.
On a personal level, I hope Ukraine can go back to pre-invasion borders (because Crimea is long-gone at this point) and enter NATO as to develop in peace. But I'm also a pragmatist, and the writing on the wall is showing that the moment NATO support falters, they are fucked.
This is what I mean by them needing to understand their position and not rock the boat : any moves that reduce goodwill from the countries propping up their war effort will cost them dearly when it's all said and done.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Big "hello" to everyone who says Ukraine will fit like a glove in the EU and already should have been in it. Ukraine, for some reason (what if it's indeed the neonazi groups that run the game in Ukraine?) can't even make concessions with their closest ally.
Kojakill@reddit
Hello Russian shill, still working today? What days do you get off exactly
IsoRhytmic@reddit
I don't get it either... If Turkey, once at it's economic peak as well as doing alot for NATO/West (stationing American Nukes, Korean war etc). How does Ukraine even make sense.
Don't get me wrong, Ukrainians I have met are some of the smartest people I have met especially in the software/engineering industry. But the level of corruption.. the neonazi groups.. as well as historical issues with key EU members like Poland. How do people feel Ukraine is ready to join the EU?
Winjin@reddit
I think you missed the part (after the closing bracket) that the Turkey hasn't been invited into EU despite being super useful, and no one is going to take Ukraine over Turkey on this. Unless they want to piss Turkey off A LOT.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Not gonna. At least in the foreseeable future.
sanity_rejecter@reddit
thinking of countries as nothing but chess pieces for muh major powers again?
Ageati@reddit
"The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."
jadacuddle@reddit
How dare this guy accurately describe the way world politics have always functioned!
Icy-Cry340@reddit
The pawns are very upset.
Hyndis@reddit
Thats always been the case and always will be.
Smaller, weaker countries with any strategic interest at all will try to find more powerful nations to align themselves with.
Pklnt@reddit
Ukraine is playing the realpolitik game, they recognize that even though they're the ones needing aid, they are also "helping" Russia's rivals by weakening it without huge costs (and especially without human lives) from NATO countries.
That being said, IDK if that's how Medias are trying to portray them, but they sound drunk on their own koolaid.
Between this and those statements implying that Europe is more dependent on Ukraine than the opposite, they really sound entitled and delusional.
VampiroMedicado@reddit
I don't see the 4D chess move, what are they going to do? Surrender and attack Poland?
Winjin@reddit
I mean these are very strange hills to die on. When (almost) all neighbours sees UPA in negative light, or even outright as collaborators and\or genociders in their own right, demanding special treatment for them seems extremely counterintuitive.
Like, a NORMAL thing to do would be to offer help with the Volhyna, and politely ask for a chance to move the bodies in a respectful way. In that case, Poland could have a chance to gracefully agree, and then they can do whatever they want with the bodies, once they're inside the Ukraine borders.
This gives off completely wrong vibes, really. Poland could actually start exhumations, checking WHO is inside the graves and WHAT they did.
I'm not sure this is Realpolitik, this is the antithesis of being a politik, as described by mr. Williams (Poli - many, -ticks - blood sucking bugs) that would say or do ANYTHING in order to get what they want.
I looked it up and basically half of the neighbours either hate UPA or are generally negative towards them. Basically the only neighbours that don't harbor outright resentment towards them are the Baltic states.
_2B-@reddit
Sounds like a negotiation to me. People in this chat may be forgetting that Ukraine are legitimate players in Europe now and with that, they curry some weight when they find themselves in negotiating terms. It's crazy how people, especially Europeans, build Ukraine up as the last bastion from the wave of Uruk-hai from ~~Mordor~~ Russia, but when Ukraine want to collect their dues they get shut down. If the Poles don't want to agree with the Ukrainian's, then maybe the next government will be able to make said deal.
Having said that, if I was a citizen of a country in which Poland unfortunately find themselves in, I would feel a sort of way too, about the situation. Yet that is what happens, when you build a country up to the point that they have a rightful seat at the negotiating table and not purely a roadblock that is getting foreign aid. I would assume the Polish government should work in tandem with what Ukraine wants, so they get what they want. I don't see a problem with this.
Little_Gray@reddit
Anybody who knows their history would understand this is an insane demand. It would be like Japan demanding South Korea honour the Japanese soldiers who died there in ww2.
Ukraine is also not a legitimate player in Europe. Their continued existence is entirely reliant on western aid with Poland being a major part of that.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Remind us again, what does Ukraine have to offer to Europe except for diplomatic headaches and bills to pay?
Icy-Cry340@reddit
kek
Radiant-Ad-4853@reddit
Lmao . They need 80% of their budget funded by the U.S. taxpayer . Ukraine gets more tax dollars than U.S. states .
Apprehensive-Cry3409@reddit
Fucking lol
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Are they really this fucking stupid. How reliable is this newspaper?
Britstuckinamerica@reddit (OP)
It's Poland's oldest internet news website, somewhat like AOL (check out how it looked in 1997!) and if anything its controversies have to do with it being TOO integrated with the government to the extent that journalistic independence was threatened a few years ago and the editor-in-chief had to step down. This is virtually certainly true
icatsouki@reddit
why is it something they care about? especially given current context?
konchitsya__leto@reddit
😬
HawaiiKawaiixD@reddit
Poland literally views the massacres in Poland by the UPA as genocide. This is a wild request.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
ycnz@reddit
That seems like something I wouldn't be keen to forgive
eloyend@reddit
It's not really about lack of willingness to forgive. Hell, there was quite famous gesture in the 60s (just 20 years after the war!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_Reconciliation_of_the_Polish_Bishops_to_the_German_Bishops that one could think unimaginable after millions were killed by Germans withing the very living memory and still plenty of ruins being silent testament to the scale of destruction... and yet.
But ffs, one need to stop glorifying their god damn genocide shitfucks for honest reconciliation to occur and wounds to finally dry out.
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