TikTok v. Garland Decision: Per Curiam - Ban Upheld
Posted by AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 61 comments
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf
There is no doubt that, for more than 170 million Ameri- cans, TikTok offers a distinctive and expansive outlet for expression, means of engagement, and source of commu- nity. But Congress has determined that divestiture is nec- essary to address its well-supported national security con- cerns regarding TikTok’s data collection practices and relationship with a foreign adversary. For the foregoing reasons, we conclude that the challenged provisions do not violate petitioners’ First Amendment rights. The judgment of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit is affirmed.
Not a fan at all. TikTok isn't doing anything that Facebook and Google and Reddit are not already doing. This is simply the government pitching a hissy fit because TikTok didn't grant them unlimited access like Facebook and Google and Reddit.
Also this ban is completely ineffectual, RedNote has already taken off as a replacement. What a fucking waste of time, and money, by a bunch of Boomers who don't understand technology.
NonPartisanFinance@reddit
Rednote is included in the ban. If tiktok goes so does rednote. People have been downloading it as a protest more than anything. At least for those that know they will both be banned.
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
No, it's not. Rednote is not owned by ByteDance, so not included in the ban. You're probably thinking of Lemon8, which is owned by ByteDance, and thus included in the ban.
crazymicahman@reddit
The law could be applied to rednote and other apps/websites/platforms of the presidents deems it a threat and it meets some criteria. (20% owned by foreign adversary country, over 1M monthly active users, and some other stipulations regarding content creation on the app/website in question)
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
Yes, the law could be applied that way, but it takes an order from the president and a 270 day waiting period to allow time for divestiture. Saying that an app that could be banned no sooner than October if the president orders it is "included in the ban" that takes effect today is nonsense.
crazymicahman@reddit
Right there’s a process. Announcement, report due by 30-days, but I’m not reading any where in the text that says 270d divestiture waiting period. Where did you see that? And I only said “the law could be applied to other apps/etc” not that rednote will also be taken down.
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
Page 62
crazymicahman@reddit
Ah. Separate bill. Thanks.
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
That's the bill that banned TikTok. If you're looking at HR 7521 that never made it through the Senate.
NonPartisanFinance@reddit
No I’m not. The act that is being applied is based around banning any foreign app. Not just bytedance.
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
So all foreign apps are banned, effective Sunday?
No.
The law banned apps owned by ByteDance, and provided a process for banning other foreign apps. They may use the process defined by the law to ban Rednote, but it's not "included in the ban."
NonPartisanFinance@reddit
I didn’t say that.
And no it’s not getting banned Sunday. Which I can see as misleading but I just meant that red note will likely be banned shortly after Sunday.
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
You said it was included in the ban. It's not. Not in any meaningful sense of the phrase. The fact that it could be targeted by the same law at some point in the future doesn't translate into "included in the ban."
The law has a 270 day divestment period for the owner of a targeted app to sell it to an acceptable owner, so the absolute soonest it could be banned is October. That just makes this a big game of whack-a-mole where users move to a different app, once the government figured out where they went they get 9 months on that app before they have to move somewhere else. I think there's a group of users that will be happy to play that game.
NonPartisanFinance@reddit
I didn’t say “all foreign apps are banned”
I did say it’s not getting banned Sunday like TikTok and that what I said was misleading. Why you still here?
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
You said, and I quote:
It's not.
Why won't you admit you were wrong? It's okay to be wrong. Standing strong on being wrong is a character flaw.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit (OP)
Give it a month and there will be a new one.
Every totalitarian government eventually learns, you can't stop the signal.
NonPartisanFinance@reddit
Maybe. But I think especially in the short term most users will switch to many of the alternative platforms.
Pkmn_Gold@reddit
Where does it say RedNote Is included?
NonPartisanFinance@reddit
The TikTok ban is actually called the “protecting Americans from foreign adversary controlled applications act” meaning any and all foreign owned apps can be banned if they want. Essentially at the whims of Congress.
crazymicahman@reddit
Exactly. And that foreign adversary only needs a 20% stake in the company.
unicorncholo@reddit
This reminds me of a place in Okinawa that Marines were banned attending. The establishment would just change its name….
oboshoe@reddit
I'm a little surprised that 170 million people, more than half use it.
I find it it be a piece of shit, but I think banning it is way overboard and the precedent will be used to ban other things.
crazymicahman@reddit
It’s written into the law!
HR 7521
“The term “foreign adversary controlled application” means a website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application that is operated, directly or indirectly (including through a parent company, subsidiary, or affiliate)
(ii) that is determined by the President to present a significant threat to the national security of the United States”
Basically any app or platform that is 20% owned by a “country specified in section 4872(d)(2) of title 10, United States code” and has more than 1M monthly active users can be banned.
Hot_Most5332@reddit
Idk I’m fine with it. It’s controlled by the Chinese government. I’m surprised that libertarians are okay with a government, much less a foreign government, controlling a social media platform that they’re undoubtedly using to influence elections and policy.
I get that we are all skeptical of government action of any kind, but one of the very few things that I believe the government should do is protect us from other governments.
oboshoe@reddit
My somewhat unpopular view is that freedom of speech applies to everyone.
Even people living in foreign lands that we don't like are entitled to freedom of speech.
Maybe they are trying to influence the election. And that irritates me. But they are doing it by using speech.
Hot_Most5332@reddit
Correct, people should have freedom of speech, not governments. Should the US government be able to purchase facebook and promote content they like and shadow ban content they don’t? People on here lack so much common sense that we have libertarians out here advocating for the Chinese government’s right to free speech. What the actual fuck?
For the uneducated, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with private individuals and where they are from. It is purely an action by one government against the other. No one is stopping an individual or company from buying and operating Tik Tok as long as they aren’t owned or controlled by a foreign government.
oboshoe@reddit
Should? Probably not.
Does? I bet governments are one of the largest buyers of pushed content.
Plus when it comes down to it. Who is placing the order? a government AI interface? Or a human being making clicks and providing payment info?
Hot_Most5332@reddit
I don’t like any governments.
bravehotelfoxtrot@reddit
As a US citizen, I’m far more worried about my own government than any foreign government. I’m completely fine with the idea that people are using social media platforms that our government cannot manipulate, even if other governments can.
The best antidote to propaganda—US, Chinese, whatever—is as free a flow of information as possible. Censorship and banning entire platforms is counterproductive to this end. If tik tok is “bad” then the answer isn’t to ban it—it’s to allow people out there to create other platforms that people feel they can trust more.
oboshoe@reddit
I'm just telling you it's raining.
I'm not an advocate of bad weather days.
MechEngAg@reddit
Why shouldn't government have freedom of speech?
SiPhoenix@reddit
Free speech shoupd not how ever protext one from the consequences of other crimes such as thief, fraud, defamation, and liable. Propaganda arguably hits these as do predatory ULAs
oboshoe@reddit
Yea I would agree with that.
Gloomy_Nebula_5138@reddit
There are just so many reasons the ban makes sense. For example TikTok executives said under oath that data for US users is only kept in the US, but it later came out that they lied (under oath!!). It’s also a free trade issue - why is it that foreign social media apps have no access to the Chinese market and are banned across the board, but Chinese apps are allowed to complete in the US or European markets? And the craziest think I’ve read today, is this exclusive story about how TikTok employees have to abide by CCP rules on moderation and censorship, agree to uphold the CCP’s goals (like socialism, national unity, censorship, etc), agree to surveillance of their personal digital devices, and also report to a China-based manager in addition to their US-based manager (see the story here). The free speech argument is worth having, but there are many other reasons why a ban can be easily justified.
CatatonicMan@reddit
I feel like I have to point out that, in refusing access, TikTok was doing something that the rest weren't doing.
bravehotelfoxtrot@reddit
Allowing people around the world to openly communicate and share unfiltered happenings on a platform that the US government cannot manipulate? Such a security threat, oh no.
Barskor1@reddit
The CCP filters and censors TT and they use it for blackmail and honeypotting and backdooring the kids phone to the parents devices to spy and everything else like propaganda.
bravehotelfoxtrot@reddit
And? US citizens live here, not in China (exceptions aside). Our own government poses a much greater threat to US citizens than does China’s. I’d rather there be more platforms that our government can’t control, not fewer.
If you want to try pressuring the CCP to ease up on their fucked up behavior, go right ahead. It’s a good cause. But I think that our government banning an entire platform is counterproductive. Which media we consume should be up to us, not our government.
Barskor1@reddit
You would think so until the CCP fries the water valves and gas lines crashes airplanes and all the other hackery that hackers can do or the USSA gubberment uses that capability to do an Operation Northwoods to blame China for some 9/11 plus shit.
jangohutch@reddit
Took them decades to setup media networks that spread their lies and propaganda, you think they going to give that up easily.
Grumblepugs2000@reddit
One of the worst SCOTUS decisions ever
ecleipsis@reddit
This. I don’t personally use TikTok but censorship rulings like this is a dangerous precedent to set. I’m worried for what will be banned next.
Grumblepugs2000@reddit
Exactly. IDC about Tiktok in particular I'm worried about the fact this basically gives a blank check to the executive to ban any foreign online media they want as long as they can come up with some BS "national security" reason to justify it
viper999999999@reddit
"Foreign adversary." Why the fuck are we trying to drum up a new cold war with our largest trade partner?
helloiisjason@reddit
We have been in a cold war with China
DarthFluttershy_@reddit
And while China is adversarial to the US, what's the fundamental difference between this and every other social media app that sells your personal data to people all over the world (probably including China)? This concern is mostly a thin veneer to attack Chinese "influence" no matter what they say.
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
To me the biggest problem here was the lack of due process.
The way laws should work is that the government passes a law, people / companies have to comply with the law, and if they violate the law the government has to take them to court, prove the law was violated, then the court imposes the punishment in accordance with the law.
The way this law worked is the government picked a target they didn't like and passed a law punishing them. There was no opportunity to comply with the law. The government didn't have to prove in court that they had violated the law. How this isn't a bill of attainder is beyond me.
But the government didn't want to lay out a law that social media companies had to comply with, because then their campaign contributors (Meta, Google, etc.) would have to comply with those laws too.
RocksCanOnlyWait@reddit
The bill targeted any app owned by a foreign government. That's how Congress avoided the bill of attainder restriction.
If neither side disputes the facts in question, i.e. that the CCP owns ByteDance, then there is no need for a trial.
NaturalCarob5611@reddit
That would just make the foreign governments the target of the bill of attainder. Is there legal precedent that foreign governments are exempt from the bill of attainder provision of article 1?
RocksCanOnlyWait@reddit
Bill of Attainder
To qualify as a Bill of Attainder, the Bill has to target a specific named individual or organization. This would include narrowly crafting the bill to target only that class.
By targeting apps owned by any adversary to the United States, it's not limited to just TikTok / China. Even if the Bill was limited to just China, it would still not qualify, as it doesn't target only TikTok. Countries are broad enough to not fall under Bill's of Attainder.
Outcast_Comet@reddit
Then if that is the case, constitutional protections are meaningless. The government could pass some legislation tomorrow making left-handedness illegal, and nothing needs to be proved about such a view. You may find it laughable and say SCOTUS or any court would immediately strike it down, but there is no guarantee in the future of courts remaining "sensible".
Illustrious-Fox4063@reddit
I dislike TikTok immensely but the only instances where the .gov should have the power to ban it is on .gov computers and to active members of the military.
NonPartisanFinance@reddit
I said it was misleading!! 3 times now! What more do you want?
endthepainowplz@reddit
Honestly, if the government wants to prevent people from downloading spyware, they should ban the practice and expand privacy requirements for apps in general. Tik Tok is a symptom of a disease, and instead of treating the cause they get rid of the symptom. If the government should be doing anything, it would be protecting its citizens, but instead, it allows the same harmful data gathering processes to be done by other companies, and apps, and bans something that doesn't solve the problem, classic.
Outcast_Comet@reddit
I do use redmote as a way to keep in touch with Chinese friends. There is no way I am letting some Jurassic age justices decide whom I have in my acquaintance circle.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit (OP)
Because a Euro company has the GDPR and might not give the US Government unlimited access to your data
DrElvisHChrist0@reddit
Why only TikTok? Why not ban WeChat and every other Chinese app? They are all subject to CCP control.
antimagi@reddit
people not caring about giving up data is the dumbest thing ever. so frustrating. people said, "why should i care about the PATRIOT act and NSA spying, im not hiding anything..." but when they create an AI version of you and steal your voice and image and learn how to play you like a nintendo: they will sell all your information to creeps, marketers, and scammers who could ruin your life... if it doesnt happen to you it could happen to your parents and neighbors....
anyone who doesnt care about their data is dooming us all
mcnello@reddit
Oh no! They are going to flood u/antimagi 's feed with hentai magazine advertisements!!! Better ban it for the whole country! If u/antimagi doesn't agree with it, then NOBODY deserved a say in whether or not they may engage in business with Tik Tok.
DrElvisHChrist0@reddit
I have no use for TikTok or the toxic TikTok mentality, nor would I even have an account there given the CCP control of the platform. Not living in China doesn't mean they aren't trying to use the platform for their own agenda, which they are as with all Chinese-based internet services.
Regardless, why is the governmafia interfering with it? This is still a matter of personal choice. I can fully understand the ban by governmafia employees using it because of security reasons, but if civilians are stupid enough, let them.
Yes, the ban is a ridiculous waste of time. As you mention, another app with the same issues is already taking its place. I think the whole thing is just another dog & pony show. If they are going to ban TikTok, why not go all out and ban every Chinese-based app, including WeChat? Everything based in China is subject to CCP monitoring, censorship and control.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit (OP)
Because TikTok won't give the US Government unlimited access to user data like Facebook, Google, Twitter, and Redit.
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
I think the concern with China is, at least allegedly, one of national defense. If the Chinese have an app on half of all American phones and that app shares stuff like location, contacts, and messenger data, that can do a lot to identify people who work on military bases, in critical defense industries, in the intelligence apparatus. Maybe even bug some key phones or contribute to a CCP blackmail plot. Maybe it's not some top general or senator, but it's their kid, and the Chinese just get occasional conversation of their important parents talking about work. Though as far as I know that's all hypothetical.
There's also the claim that TikTok has contributed towards brainwashing, or at least dumbing down, the nation's youth. Shorter attention spans. Constant ads for cheap Chinese goods/temu. Demoralization, as Yuri Bezmenov described.
It's kind of a dilemma of "I believe in a free society, but in a free society should a separate totalitarian society be able to push a product that supports totalitarianism?"
Imagine if we had a similar platform, but one that "brainwashes" people into self reliance, critical thinking, and independence...