Alternative input entry methods to alleviate repetitive strain injuries
Posted by markraidc@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 63 comments
As you know, it's not so much a matter of if, but rather a matter of when 😄 Over the past 3 decades, I've probably had all sorts of different wrist/arm/hand issues. (all of which I have thankfully, recovered from)
I'm acquainted with at least *some* alternative input methods, but I would love to learn techniques which have worked for you.
Here are some that I have used:
- Win+H on Windows for voice input.
- Enable Viacam as a mouse replacement.
- Evoluent VerticalMouse.
- Switching hands for mouse.
- Dragon Dictate.
- Proper ergonomic seating.
I have yet to try this:
- TapStrap2 / TapXR
- an "Air Mouse"
I understand that there are also more expensive ergonomic solutions which provide a lot more support for the arms, and are often provided within a corporate setting via a note from one's doctor, but I've never looked into those.
tomqmasters@reddit
Thinkpad keyboard with trackpoint, trackball, and mxmaster saved me from some RSI related pain. Also the herman miller chair was totally worth it (used). The key is to have options. If you use one method all the time that will become repetitive, the R in RSI.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
The trackpoint have me a whole new problem - pointing finger pain, right at the fingertip. WAY too much resistance.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
The resistance on those little red nubs really kept me from ever using them... I can see how that might aggravate the finger at some point.
claussen@reddit
I sell a variant trackpoint option as part of Svalboard Lightly with a waaaaay longer nub -- it's a revelation in terms of forces. Different universe 🙏🏻
markraidc@reddit (OP)
In the videos I see the fingers still (obviously) making much finer movements - I'd like to know the science behind why this is better.
Is there any literature on this?
claussen@reddit
There are old studies from the datahand era where they looked at typing endurance and speed over time in a few different sample groups.
The wayback machine has archives of datahand site materials from the early 2000s that you can definitely dig through, and I think I linked some of them in the FAQ page or other stuff on my website.
svalboard.substack.com has some relevant writing I've done in the subject as well.
The simple explanation is that it is less physical work. The combination of short travel and a magnetic force profile that falls away means that the total energy expended for any given key press is dramatically reduced. And since the fingers don't have to move to the keys over distances of centimeters, you are also not moving the hand much.
Add to this the full resting of the palm, which takes the load off of the neck shoulder and elbow chain, and the vast majority of the energy that traditionally goes into typing is removed from the system. For pathologies which are sensitive to total workload, this is the core benefit. Inflammation through the carpal tunnel etc is a cumulative motion thing for folks who are susceptible to it.
I'm not aware of recent scientific study conducted by third parties because there is not sufficient economic incentive for such science to happen. But the experience of Datahand users in the past and Svalboard users today is definitely something you can study to the extent that it isn't polluted but a range of sample biases 🙏🏻
I suggest hopping on the www.svalvoard.com/discord to chat with folks who would have devices today and can give perspective on the comparison between this kind of device versus other split ergo keyboards and traditional ones.
The community that represents a broad range of pathologies and experience with many, many different ergonomic solutions. We all take a pretty holistic approach to figuring out ergonomic solutions, because many of us have combinations of pathologies that are not tractable with a single change or device.
It's not a silver bullet, but it's a pretty major impact for many people. ☺️
apnorton@reddit
I haven't been in the industry as long as you, but are you sure this is the case? The people I work with who've been in industry for decades aren't all suffering from RSI, which makes me think that ergonomic practices can prevent RSI.
For my part, taking breaks, buying an adjustable-height desk, and a split keyboard eliminated my issues and has kept them away for the past several years. Some lifestyle changes help, too (e.g. I don't play some videogames anymore because I can't eliminate my reflexive death-grip on a controller, which was causing some strain issues).
blisse@reddit
The underlying cause of wrist RSI as I understand is just whether your wrists are in a neutral un-strained position most of the time. Most people put their palms on the table means their wrist gets stretched if they're typing on the keyboard. Height adjustment desks help bring the elbow more above the keyboard so there's less strain on the wrist. Split keyboards help if the person can't naturally have their wrists close together on a normal keyboard. And most people clench their too small or unergonomic mouse.
cryptopian@reddit
I've never been given much instruction in keyboard technique, but it's very similar to the advice given to pianists. Keep horizontal forearms with arched fingers, and try not to hold tension in the wrists and fingers when they're not doing anything.
69Cobalt@reddit
Yeah not saying this isn't a real problem for some people but I don't know if I'd describe it as inevitable, we're desk workers not plumbers.
I would have to imagine there is a high correlation with a generally unhealthy/inactive lifestyle with little strength training and those who experience RSI. Anecdotally my lower back hurts when I don't lift for a week or two, if I'm consistently lifting I can sit however I want at my desk for however many hours and it feels fine.
Computerist1969@reddit
If you have to use the mouse a lot (I'm using a UML modelling tool most days) then have a mouse and a finger controlled(not thumb) trackball connected and switch between them regularly. Also get your seat height correct. This largely works for me.
twisterase@reddit
I use a split keyboard where the two halves are connected by a 20" cord, so I can move them around separately to achieve a more comfortable posture.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
Looks like the Moonlander Mark 1 is a popular one... Do you have any other suggestions?
jorar91@reddit
Crone
Jaded-Asparagus-2260@reddit
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No-Mortgage-4822@reddit
The new Kinesys advantage 360 is fucking amazing. The scooped keywells make a huge difference.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
Thank you, I'm pretty new to this world of split keyboards - I'm going to check it out :)
Gatsbyyy@reddit
I my sea voyager personally but the moonlander is also a great keyboard! The Glove80 is also very popular!
redcc-0099@reddit
I went from Kinesis Freestyle 2 to UHK V1 then V2 with the key cluster and touchpad add-ons:
https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/uhk60v2
I keep my MMO gaming mouse between the halves and still use the keyboard when gaming. They both sit on a
https://www.imovr.com/products/steadytype-exo-ergonomic-keyboard-tray
That's on an iMovr motorized sit-stand desk I bought ~9 years ago.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
The tilted keyboard tray is very interesting! I can just feel the relief by looking at it! Haha.
I imagine the trick is to alternate.
redcc-0099@reddit
I keep it at the same place as best as I can, but I'll end up banging my knee on it or bumping it, and after the years it tilts forward a little, but yeah, if you have a regular chair you can sit with it tilted towards you and recline a little and when standing you can tilt it away from you.
twisterase@reddit
I personally use the Freestyle 2 from Kinesis, but I haven't tried any others to be able to compare.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
Oh interesting... I knew there was that Microsoft Natural keyboard.. but I didn't realize people used actual "split" ones placed far apart from one another.
FoxyWheels@reddit
What I've done that's worked for me:
good properly adjusted chair (Herman Miller Embody)
standing desk that I actually use
proper monitor height
trackpad and mouse (mouse for precision work, trackpad for all else)
split, tented keyboard with thumb clusters (I'm using a corner, but there are many "ready OOB" options)
lurking_physicist@reddit
Stand up desks changed my life.
pretzelfisch@reddit
The standing part is great but they rock for dialing in the right sitting height as well.
08148694@reddit
First and foremost, make sure you have good posture. Make sure your hands and elbows are where they should be. Some very common mistakes I see are monitors (or desks) too high (top of monitor should be at eye level). Needing or wanting to use a wrist rest is a strong signal that your arm position is not right, with proper positioning you won’t need it
Other than posture I’d recommend a split keyboard and keyboard-centric workflows. Any time you reach for the mouse stop yourself, put you hands back on the home position, and use a shortcut. Don’t know it? Learn it. Isn’t one? Make one. The is extremely difficult especially if you have years or decades of mouse use, but honestly it’s one of the best things you can do. There are very few occasions when you actually must use a mouse
KataKataBijaksana@reddit
Aight bruthur, ignore all the split keyboard trackball mouse garbage, cause I'm about to change your life
https://svalboard.com/
Costs an arm and a leg for a prebuilt keyboard, and you gotta be willing to put in the time to relearn how to type, but this thing is the most ergonomic keeb/mouse combo you could ever use. Made by a dude in California as a passion project. If you're cheap, you can buy the PCBs/harbware and 3d print everything else.
Here it is in action: https://youtu.be/2MV_wryGrq0
The video was made before the trackball was built into the keyboard, but now you just need to draw your arm back slightly at the shoulder to mouse around.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
Ahh yes this is inspired by the Datahand (which someone shared earlier)
kantlivelong@reddit
I actually fairly recently went the "cheaper" route and did the DIY. The parts were fairly painless to print but you will want a well tuned printer.
As someone who's never used anything other than a traditional keyboard I can say that it does take a little bit to learn but really didn't take me that long to get comfortable typing alphanumeric characters. Slowly getting more muscle memory for symbols, F keys, shortcuts, etc but overall I'm enjoying it.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/398850/Epistory__Typing_Chronicles/ was also a great way to improve though certainly not something you want to jump into immediately unless you enjoy games like Dark Souls.
Here's mine
PoopsCodeAllTheTime@reddit
Split keyboard + trackball mouse
PoopsCodeAllTheTime@reddit
I have met people with severe RSI that swear by obsolete keyboards like the DataHand which they got second-hand, but this would be most extreme scenario, you probably do not need this
markraidc@reddit (OP)
oh wow.. that thing is wild!!
HowTheStoryEnds@reddit
it has a great successor in https://svalboard.com/
claussen@reddit
Hey! Svalboard is my baby 😁. It's is a labor of love to revive Datahand, which saved my career. Happy to chat about it with anyone.
The discord is also a great gathering place for experience software developers dealing with all kinds of ergonomic issues, not all just keyboard related.
svalboard.com/discord
wrex1816@reddit
Since the other comments aren't saying this explicitly:
Yes, it's ok for water to get in there, but the problem is using high pressure spray. Avoid doing that.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
Switching to a left-handed mouse setup really helped me, and I was amazed at how easily I adapted to it. As an experiment, I also tried using a right-handed mouse setup on the left side of my keyboard. It was horrible! Brains are weird, yo!
davvblack@reddit
as in inner click/outer click instead of left right click?
latkde@reddit
Personally I have two mice, which are for all purposes identical, and keep their left/right button assignment. No mirroring, just completely vanilla settings. Works completely fine for me.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
What ost settings UIs call "left-handed mouse" is swapping the buttons (i.e. #1).
squashed_fly_biscuit@reddit
When I started climbing my wrist pain almost completely vanished pretty much straight away and body problems are now just climbing injuries which come and go. I think doing something physical that engages the wrists and fingers will do a lot to help prevent issues. Other people have mentioned resistance training, if you'll actually enjoy it, great, if not I'd find something genuinely fun. I love climbing and the friends I've made through it so it's a win win
Swimming_Search6971@reddit
I found this to be the most effective, expecially having the elbow at same height of the desk (so that your forearm is parallel to the desk) helped a lot.
Also, I have cronical tendonitis in both my forearms from when I was a teenager (not for the reasons you're thinking :D ), back then the physiotherapist gave me a few excercises to alleviate the situation, and they help a lot:
Droma-1701@reddit
Split keyboard is the most important for me, the unnatural angles forced into your wrists from the cheap as chips OEM keyboards is the root of all evil... Takes about 1-2 weeks for your brain to click and then they're lovely to use and you tend to type a bit quicker too. Also, dependant on what you're doing, make as much use of CoPilot to rough out the majority of the donkey work as you can. There's little better to make your input easier than no input needed at all! Vertical mouse didn't do much for me, it was definitely comfier to rest your hand on, but I found the actual act of using kit more uncomfortable. Switching ng hand on the mouse is a major one for me, switching the buttons makes it easier but YMMV. Non-input related, wrapping a strip of surgical tape snuggly around the wrist acts like a weight lifting suit and just steadies the whole area, super useful during a flare up, I've also found a wrap of 5-10mm Velcro does the same but it can irritate too depending on make. Just put the support in front of the wrist bones where the wrist articulates. Finally, take up climbing or another sport which makes significant use of the forearms and wrists, get some strength in there and movements you're not doing during the day.
tomqmasters@reddit
Gyro mouse* Especially for computer time on a big screen.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
My doctor advised me to change something every few months. Sit vs. stand. Mouse left v. right. Keyboard a few inches closer v. further away. Touchpad v. mouse
tomqmasters@reddit
Every few months? I'd say several times a day.
Sea_Philosophy5944@reddit
My preferred method too.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
Ahh that's a great suggestion! - Touchpad is something I definitely missed on that list. Going to order one today.
redcc-0099@reddit
Including my response to a different comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/s/ppv2ccIJRK), I go from using a kneeling chair, standing briefly without a mat here and there, and using a LeanRite to lean against at standing height and a height above sitting. I bought the LeanRite on Amazon in a bundle that was cheaper than direct from the company at the time, if I recall correctly.
https://www.amazon.com/Ergonomic-Standing-Adjustable-Workstations-Massager/dp/B08SLBX9CK/ref=mp_s_a_1_3
Cool-Importance6004@reddit
Amazon Price History:
LeanRite Ergonomic Office Chair for Standing Desk | Adjustable Height Stand Desk Stool for Home and Office Bundle w3 Accessories *New Upgraded 2024 Version Patented Elite * Rating: ★★★★☆ 4.8
Source: GOSH Price Tracker
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SolarNachoes@reddit
Logitec vertical mouse Proper desk / keyboard / chair height
And stop playing too much Xbox :)
No_Advisor_2467@reddit
For immediate stuff, I second moving mouse to left hand (What you've already tried!) - I felt it really only takes a day or two for your brain to 70% adjust. I also switched to a Kensington expert for work a few years ago and it's done wonders, along with a microsoft ergonomic keyboard.
But the main thing that made a difference for me was working out my wrist and forearms once or twice a day. I'll just get a broom and grab in the middle, extend my arm and simply slowly rotate my wrist clockwise and counter clockwise. Making it hard enough to slightly replica the pain, but not enough to make it feel more than an annoyance. Bonus points to do the same thing but 'curling' your wrist in, and then the alternate of bringing your wrist back like you're 'marionetting.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiNib_-v0YE
markraidc@reddit (OP)
Ah nice! This is exactly what my therapist recommended.
inspectedinspector@reddit
I also like a split keyboard. I use the ergodox and a track pad, that with proper ergonomics and a good chair has eliminated any issues for me.
Since you asked about alternative input methods, I've always been very intrigued by a "roller mouse" but never tried one.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
It just gave me thumb-joint pain.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
As someone noted, occasionally switching up methods is probably the best way to go... as the ailment is in the name: "repetitive" 😉
TheWhiteKnight@reddit
All of my pains went away a couple months after starting resistance trailing a. Lower back, wrist, knee pain, ... everything feels good now.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
Doing wrist curls with a 2-pound dumbbell really helped. Forehand (fingers up), backhand (fingers down), and both side rotations (fingers in and fingers out), always using the joint to fight gravity.
Same thing for my shoulder, but 5 or 8 pounds, and including a gentle behind-the-back dip.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
If your environment allows it, learn to do as much as possible with the CLI, and avoid the mouse as much as possible. Mice can cause joint pains at all sorts of points from the shoulder all the way to the fingers. If you can't avoid GUIs, your TAB key may become your best friend.
SheriffRoscoe@reddit
Dictation has gotten really good in recent years.
TheRealBasilisk@reddit
As someone who has struggled with similar issues. #1 fix was discovering some stretches which helped stretch the muscle the nerves connecting to your hand. I know you said you are in PT, so you are hopefully covered there but like I said these stretches were life changing.
2 was getting a split keyboard. Makes good posture so much easier and the particular keyboard I have (moonlander) you can prom each key to do whatever you want. Even using combined keystrokes as a single key press
3 is hit the gym. Building core strength and actually engaging your muscles will be a game changer.
markraidc@reddit (OP)
Background: Currently going through chronic inflammation for an entire 3 months, in extensor carpi ulnaris (outer/upper forearm area) and getting physical therapy for it.