Ben Gvir says he repeatedly foiled hostage deals, urges Smotrich to help him stop this one
Posted by adasiukevich@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 222 comments
Private_HughMan@reddit
What a vile man. Every bit the monster he says the Palestinians are and more. This terrorist shouldn't be walking free; let alone have influence over a nation's security.
lavastorm@reddit
yep. Israel has a terrorist government.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-ben-gvir-far-right-kingmaker-who-wants-hamas-eliminated-2024-08-15/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/former-shin-bet-deputy-chief-said-to-call-hardline-mk-smotrich-a-terrorist/
productfred@reddit
If you made him a couple of shades darker (say, actual Middle Eastern instead of European cosplaying as one), then support would flip immediately. And that's what's sickening and infuriating to be aware of. It's a genocide being fueled by masters of PR, but the foundation is rotten and coming down as even "casual/passive" racism (towards Arabs) isn't working anymore.
undernew@reddit
Ben Gvir is Kurdish-Iraqi-descent, not European.
productfred@reddit
I was thinking of Isaac Herzog (the Israeli president). As someone Arab myself, Ben Gvir is an example of a self-loathing Arab who refuses to identify as an Arab; he is firmly Israeli (whatever that even means nowadays), according to himself and how he identifies.
Like if someone from the Allies voluntarily joined the Nazi's during World War 2, I wouldn't care that they were originally from *name a "good guy" country* because they're still a Nazi, and they don't regret and it and they're actually proud of it.
GroundbreakingPut748@reddit
I’m Mizrahi, i’m not Arab and I don’t hate Arabs at all. Why do so many people who are not a part of my culture insist that I am Arab? The reason I don’t identify as an Arab is because my ancestors didn’t, they identified as Jews. This is not because I view Arabs as lesser than, that’s complete bullshit. The reason Mizrahi Jews identify as Jews and not Arabs is because we have our own culture, history and Identity. You want to believe Mizrahi Jews identify as Jews because they are self hating, that’s disgusting and so incredibly false. You are engaging in cultural erasure.
productfred@reddit
You know I'm specifically talking about Ben Gvir, yet you still wrote all that as if I'm attacking the Mizrahi community.
What you're accusing me of is: "Yeah, maybe he's a terrible person, but he and I have shared backgrounds, so you're also insulting me by referring to him (who is ethnically Iraqi as well as Jewish) as an ethnic Jew of direct Arab descent."
Being Jewish doesn't erase his Arab identity (as much as he tries), just like being an Arab doesn't erase or invalidate his Jewish identity either. It's an accurate description.
My point was that:
Ben Gvir justifies genocide by distancing himself from Arabs in Israel and outside of Israel
Ben Gvir being evil has nothing to do with him being Jewish or Mizrahi; it's simply because of his outlook on the world and the people he condemns vs the people he defends (especially legally)
Ben Gvir is a fucking terrorist. A literal terrorist, documented by Israel. He's a settler. He's also a lawyer for extremist terrorists in Israel (again, those are Israel's own charges/laws)
themightycatp00@reddit
You sound like the people who claim Ukrainians are "confused russians"
Jews are jews and arabs are arabs, its not a complicated concept
productfred@reddit
My point was that they're not mutually exclusive. My parents are from Lebanon. There are Lebanese Jews. Notable figures in politics, culture, and more. Because, again, they are both Lebanese and Jewish, just like there are Lebanese Christians and Lebanese Muslims. Still following?
Again, you're acting like they're mutually-exclusive things.
themightycatp00@reddit
Not following at all, what does race has to do with career and personal achievements?
productfred@reddit
My point is that there is both equality and harmony.
themightycatp00@reddit
yeah jews in Lebanon seem to live a very happy life /s
supercalifragilism@reddit
Why are you arguing against things the other guy didn't say?
themightycatp00@reddit
He's trying to claim arabs and mizrahi jews are similar, and white wash how arabs treated jews for centuries, and I'm proving jews were never accepted into arab societies and developed their own culture
supercalifragilism@reddit
Jews were treated better by Arab states than European ones for centuries, and the current antagonism stems almost entirely from proto Zionist activities in Palestine around the end of the 19th century. While I certainly don't argue the fact that Arab Jews have distinct culture, so do Arab Palestinians, Saudis and so on.
productfred@reddit
Because he wants to drive home that Arabs and Jews can only be separate. He's the type of person that cheers on the genocide because in his mind they can't coexist, ever.
GroundbreakingPut748@reddit
When you say things like “self loathing Arab” or the classic “Arab in denial”, all things Mizrahi Jews hear their entire lives, you are in fact attacking way more than terrorist Gvir. You’re attacking a peoplehood and an identity that has historically not been considered Arab.
productfred@reddit
You're projecting. I'm not attacking Mizrahi Jews. You're taking my comments about an Israeli government official and willingly applying them to yourself. I didn't even use the word "Mizrahi" in my original comments, because the context is that he's an Israeli with Arab roots, as well as Jewish.
GroundbreakingPut748@reddit
You’re right, you didn’t say Mizrahi. You said “self loathing Arab.” That is my issue at the core. And I can’t believe i have to simplify this for you, Ben Gvir happens to be a Mizrahi Jew, and you call him an self loathing Arab. That is offensive language because this logic applies to much more than just Ben Gvir and you know that.
productfred@reddit
So you, having been offended by the connection in the past, feel victimized because you're seeing it again (even in an entirely unrelated context). Not blaming you or insulting you; I'm just seeing it now.
I never said "self hating Arab" as a placeholder/synonym for "Mizrahi Jew". You are drawing a connection that I never made, hinted towards, or even made in my head. We're all human beings. But he doesn't agree. Me calling him a self-loathing Arab is because Israeli officials decide to be "Arabs, too" sometimes when we're talking culture and innocuous things. But then they also distance themselves to maintain moral superiority.
Again, put yourself in my shoes as an Arab (parents from Lebanon). We are collectively demonized by Israel as a whole entity. The same way that Jews view themselves as a collective tribe, we Arabs do too (regardless of religion).
"The Arabs" (my words, not yours). Consider my real life experience as a 90s kid who experienced 9/11 at a young age, and remembers how we've been treated both before and after it (bad and then much, much worse). I had to leave my school, a catholic school, because even the priests (and teachers) became actively hostile towards me and my family.
So again, to clarify, the context is: Ben Gvir is a terrible human being, and it has NOTHING to do with him being Jewish and or Mizrahi. He could be American, and I would've said the same thing, if everything else remained unchanged.
GroundbreakingPut748@reddit
What are the chances i’m reading all that
productfred@reddit
No one's forcing you to be ignorant and reply sarcastically. That's your choice and your right. But it's also my right to state to obvious:
You went from intricate explanations to disregard via backhanded insult after I started making a lot of sense. Enjoy your defense mechanism.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I'm always bemused by this. What do you call Arab Muslim and Christian converts to Judaism in your community? Are they not Mizrahi Jews as well? How does Mizrahi culture differ from Arab culture around the Middle East? Different food? Different movies? Different language?
GothicGolem29@reddit
Wdym whatever the means nowadays it means he’s from Israel
WeirderOnline@reddit
Yeah, but also you got to remember, roughly half of Israelis I think the same way he does.l
He is extremely evil, but he has completely unexceptional.
saranowitz@reddit
Are you roundabout calling half of Israelis evil?
Don’t be blind. Israelis who don’t want a a ceasefire don’t want war. They just don’t want a repeat of 10/7 and they know from experience that swapping hostages just leads to more hostages and attacks in the future. sinwar himself was part of the prisoner swap for hostage soldier Gilad Shalit.
If they want the war to continue, it’s to completely dismantle Hamas’s ability to attack them. It has nothing to do with “genocide” or whatever other buzzwords people like you poison critical thinking with.
WeirderOnline@reddit
Oh far more than half. I'd say around 3/4
saranowitz@reddit
Oh cool. You’re a bigot. How ironic
Next_Snow9064@reddit
"bigotry is when you point out how 68% of Israelis want all Palestinians to die"
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/over-2-3-of-jewish-israelis-oppose-humanitarian-aid-to-palestinians-starving-in-gaza/
saranowitz@reddit
Mondoweiss is not a reliable source. So yes, use a bigoted source for your bigotry.
Next_Snow9064@reddit
it doesn't matter who's reporting facts when they're facts. they link directly to the study which was conducted by a think tank that was honored by the state of Israel with their highest cultural honor for "lifetime achievement and special contribution to society and the State of Israel."
I recognize that you are another lying Israeli who hates Arabs (not bigotry because its 68% of you, so it does make you the rule, not the exception) so im not surprised you grasp at whatever straws you can to justify that hatred. at least ben gvir is open about it
saranowitz@reddit
They aren’t facts though. They only do very slanted coverage and are open about it.
Their motto is
“news and opinions about Palestine you can trust”
Don’t tell me they are linking facts. At most they are cherry picking anything that helps their viewpoint.
Also I’m not Israeli, but appreciate your continue attempt to stereotype.
Next_Snow9064@reddit
im sorry that you're unable to click the linked study in the article and instead choose to remain clueless.
sure lmao
saranowitz@reddit
🙄 sure everyone who disagrees with you is Israeli
Listen, I could cherry pick facts from studies and post them - facts like 90% of Palestinians support the October 7th attacks - and present them as complete articles without additional context, but I’m not intellectually dishonest like people who do that.
Next_Snow9064@reddit
it doesn't matter who's reporting facts when they're facts. they link directly to the study which was conducted by a think tank that was honored by the state of Israel with their highest cultural honor for "lifetime achievement and special contribution to society and the State of Israel."
Next_Snow9064@reddit
it doesn't matter who's reporting facts when they're facts. they link directly to the study which was conducted by a think tank that was honored by the state of Israel with their highest cultural honor for "lifetime achievement and special contribution to society and the State of Israel." you're just the average Israeli who hates Arabs (not bigotry because its 68% of you, so it does make you the rule, not the exception) though so im not surprised you grasp at whatever straws you can to justify that hatred. at least ben gvir is open about it
Next_Snow9064@reddit
lol
Next_Snow9064@reddit
lol
WeirderOnline@reddit
Colonization is one of the greatest evils humanity has ever invented.
It's not just theft. It's not just cultural erasure. It's not just genocide. It's all of them combined and so much more.
I look at what's happened the indigenous people of my country. How we nearly wiped them out. Forced them to settle for the tiniest chunks of their nation. The constant pain and indignity of it. How my mere existence contributes to it... but what choice do I have? I can't just stop existing. My ancestors arrived here from somewhere in northern Europe over 200 years ago.
The Zionist occupiers of Palestine love to pretend they're in the same basket. Absolute horseshit. A massive chunk of them have dual citizenship. A far, far, greater have family abroad and the resources to just FUCKING GO HOME. Instead they all spend their collective resources bringing in MORE OF THEM with the explicitly goal of wiping out Palestinian existence. The goal of GENOCIDE. The only reason they remain divided is a large number of Israelis do want SOME Arabs to remain so they can be their low paid, literally second class citizen SLAVES. Because they're trying to recreate their beloved apartheid Africa.
And every single one of them has an out. They have every opportunity to leave. Go home. To stop taking part in the extermination and subjugation. Almost NONE of them chose it.
That is indefensibly, inarguably evil.
kas-sol@reddit
More like 90%, which makes the existence of the last 10% even more impressive with the sheer amount of pressure they're constantly under to conform to the majority's ghoulishness.
Siman421@reddit
Then your objectively and provably wrong.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
They can't figure out that treating people like shit and creating more orphans is just kicking the can down the road. The only way to stop resistance is by removing the reasons to resist
saranowitz@reddit
Enlighten us as to exactly what changes would Israel have to make for Palestinians to stop resorting to terrorism as a means of achieving their political aims?
The further you go back in time to 1948, the less restrictions they had. Gaza and the West Bank used to have no border wall or checkpoints. But each time attacks happened Israel heightened security measures. Which now you are blaming for why Palestinians attack Israelis.
I think you’re wrong. I think the only way to get Palestinians to stop attacking, is for Israel to be wiped off the map and every Jew to leave the area. Which isn’t going to happen.
So I guess things will only get worse for Palestinians while they continue to support a government who encourage attacks. And this cycle will progress until they learn to coexist and prove they accept and are no longer a threat to their neighbors. Hopefully one day they will have a state of their own once they demonstrate they are focused on being a productive part of global civilization whose entire purpose is not the destruction of another state.
Incidentally, here’s a weird fact: Jordan and Egypt don’t let them freely pass in to their countries either, because they have created insurrection and terrorist attacks in those countries too. Hint: Open-air “prisons” are not made with just one border wall.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
The Palestinians' self-determination isn't subject to your opinion about how 'productive' or 'unthreatening' they are
saranowitz@reddit
Of course it is. Why should the global community recognize or welcome in a culture that promotes terrorism onto the global stage? Overthrow their government, prove peaceful intention, and then be welcome by others. You don’t just get statehood because you whine about it. You get it when you prove you can act like a state.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
75% of UN member states already recognise the State of Palestine.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Yes, the State of Palestine specifically being the Palestinian Authority, which is only in control of the West Bank. Gaza's Hamas-run government is not part of that.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Is this the same West Bank containing illegal settlements/IDF outposts? With the IDF allowing these illegal settlers to commit acts of violence against the Palestinians? How's not being Hamas (described by Netanyahu as an asset) working out for the Palestinians in the West Bank?
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Remind me: which one has been bombed to smithereens with 90% of its population displaced and tens of thousands killed in the span of less than two years?
The illegal settlements are indeed a problem that needs stopped. That doesn't make them somehow worse than how things are going in Gaza.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
I'm not saying it's worse. I'm saying Israel is not held accountable for its crimes, regardless of where in the Palestinian territories they're comitted
saranowitz@reddit
Yeah, but until the major world powers do it’s not going to accomplish much. Just reality.
Montana_Gamer@reddit
You: Genocide is necessary and cool for self defence.
WeirderOnline@reddit
That's really the interesting thing about israel.
They could have done what the the West did with Germany and Japan post World War II. They could have gone in there and really economically uplifted the region. Rebuilt and empowered them. Israel is after all a largely a post World War II project.
But they didn't. They slaughtered. They raped. They stole. They at least every form of imaginable evil on indigenous population. Despite so many of them having just recently endured such an evil they had no empathy and no kindness no goodness or anything else inside them.
So many Jewish contemporaries including Albert Einstein agreed.
When I call Israel evil, it's been evil since day one. So many Palestinians were initially extremely accommodating and welcoming to them. Then it became clear what they were conspiring to do. To completely slaughter and dispossess these people.
And that goal never changed except to expand. First they wanted part of palestine. Now they want all of palestine and "greater Israel". Soon they will want every single bit of Arab land. It is the nature of a fascist Nation to be exterminationalist and expansionist. It's one of the main reasons why I think stopping Israel right now before it becomes even more of a threat is so important.
They simply lack the resources to sustain themselves without foreign intervention. If we allow them to expand they may eventually reach a point of self-sustainability. If they hit that point, the only way to stop them will be nuclear war.
Stopping Israel and dissolving it entirely is so important. It's about more than just saving Palestine and the Palestinians. It's literally about saving the world.
valentc@reddit
Yet they don't want peace either.
Oh wow. How noble. They don't want hostages, so instead of fixing their treatment of Palestinians in Gaza, they just want to murder them all.
Are you one of those people who says that children are just future Hamas and so it's oknto murder them?
"Poison critical thinking" says the guy who thinks murder is the best way to solve his problems.
saranowitz@reddit
Uh thanks for putting a strawman argument in my mouth.
I’m not sure why someone who supports killing fetuses with tuning forks would take your position on this matter, but two can play this faux argument game.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
Ben Gvir's party in the last election got 10% of the vote.
HowNowBrownWow@reddit
Israelis poll at like 50% in favor of outright segregation. And this was a poll from 2006. The numbers are surely significantly worse at this point.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
thanks for the data. I would suggest caution over polling though. I find electoral results are an overrulingly better source of information as polling suffers from sampling biases.
HowNowBrownWow@reddit
You find that political results are more reliable than polls? lol. Lmao. I don’t even know how to respond to that. People notoriously go through many stages of bargaining when they vote. So I don’t think that’s reliable at all. Do you happen to work in a social sciences field or have a degree in that field?
Beyond that, there is a broad anti-Palestinian consensus across the entire political spectrum there, so none of this is surprising.
This poll has also steadily been at similar levels since 2006. So “fickle opinions” isn’t really a thing here.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
We didn't have to here, its just my point of view.
I'm an engineer so I have opinions about what is and what isn't trustworthy in terms of data. That you think it funny suggests to me that you do not work in social sciences or work in a STEM like field.
You might note in social sciences, should you read a paper the language used in "conclusions", especially if data sources are a little subjective, such as asking people's opinions.
HowNowBrownWow@reddit
Ah, an engineer so you also skipped all the humanities classes. Got it.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
you shouldn't talk about such subjects pretending like you know something, when you make clear by the way you talk, that you don't.
Its extremely cringe.
HowNowBrownWow@reddit
👍
Agnimandur@reddit
That's more than the entire Israeli left by the way.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Sure but likud and the other conservative parties are almost the same
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
I'm less convinced, while Likud are a nasty party I think this article shows a difference in genocidal tendencies as opposed to political pragmatism.
Monte924@reddit
Ya, Gvir wants a genocide, while Lukid only wants genocide when it's politically convenient. Totally different
reddit4ne@reddit
They want genocide in the end, they are no different from Gvir in the end, its just that they would want to do genocide in spurts and over a long enough term of time, to make it more palatable to the rest of the world. Their model of genocide is the Native Indians. Gvir is full Nazi genocide type.
I dont think any is particularly more or less evil, only Likud is willing to play the longs while, while dumbass Gvir has childlike impatience doesnt understand that going full Nazi is just not tenable anymore.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
exactly. We see this sort of arrangements in lots of nations, where a more extreme party in a coalition coaxes the nasty out of a more "moderate" party.
DonVergasPHD@reddit
Likud is the most successful party in Israeli politics, it was founded by literal terrorists and elected several terrorists as Prime Ministers.
Such_Technician_501@reddit
Likud - the party of Genocide Lite.
Monte924@reddit
10% really isn't that small considering the rop two parties only fet 25-30%... and Gvir's party is party of the majority coalition
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
sure but 50% is saying half of all the people. The context matters in terms of understanding the motivations of the Israeli electorate better.
Siman421@reddit
You assume there is massive support for Ben gvir, or the govenrment in general, In Israel. You are sorely mistaken. A majority of the population doesn't support the government, and an even greater percentage doesn't support Ben gvir.
His party had 10% and polls show he would get less now. Don't just make up information for the sake of it.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
>Majority of population doesn't support the government
>looks inside
>Government for 20 years
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/043/403/cover3.jpg
Siman421@reddit
Completely different coalition than anything there was before for the past 20 years.
Do you even know how the elections in Israel work? It's not like the American elections.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Wow different government forms exist? Had no idea.
Meanwhile in reality Likud and Netanyahu have headed the country for the longest time of any leader and party in the country's history.
Fair to say they're fairly representative of the plurality if not majority of Israelis.
Siman421@reddit
look into the total percent of votes the likud got, you might be surprised
ParagonRenegade@reddit
You trying to brainblast me with the concept of electoral coalitions? Fuck off.
It remains true that Likud and Netty were in charge of the country for two decades, indicating broad if not majority support for him and the mostly right wing partners he worked with.
Don’t go down this line of argument, because Israelis support, by supermajority, heinously racist positions.
Siman421@reddit
If someone gets at most 30% of the votes, how's is there broad support for him?
"Don’t go down this line of argument, because Israelis support, by supermajority, heinously racist positions." Literally false.
My man, you actually don't understand how coalitions work, and you complain about them being brought up.
You're funny.
arostrat@reddit
Oh yes the usual "we don't support our government" post.
Siman421@reddit
Just look at polls. I'm not wrong. There's a reason it's said alot.
reddit4ne@reddit
The majority of Israelis may or may not support this government, but the majority of Israelis do silently support genocide as the solution.
Its simple to prove. Every poll indicates that the vast majority of Israelis no longer support a 2 state solution, and only a tiny sliver support a one state no solution. Well, if they dont support or two state solution, what do they support?
It means they support the permanent oppression of Palestinians, which actually is support for genocide that they havent fully allowed to acknowledge consciously or verbally. They want to literally wall off Palestinians into ghettoes, no way in and now way out. We know, thanks to WWII and the Nazis, that this is the inevitable prelude to genocide. Maybe some Nazis didnt fully comprehend that the ghettoes were a prelude to genocide, but their own intentions were inevtiably revealed to themselves and the world.
And thats exactly what is happening with Israelis. They lie to themselves and the world constantly, but their murderous intent is being exposed.
Siman421@reddit
"Its simple to prove. Every poll indicates that the vast majority of Israelis no longer support a 2 state solution, and only a tiny sliver support a one state no solution. Well, if they dont support or two state solution, what do they support?" and you got this from where?
"It means they support the permanent oppression of Palestinians, which actually is support for genocide that they havent fully allowed to acknowledge consciously or verbally. They want to literally wall off Palestinians into ghettoes, no way in and now way out. We know, thanks to WWII and the Nazis, that this is the inevitable prelude to genocide. Maybe some Nazis didnt fully comprehend that the ghettoes were a prelude to genocide, but their own intentions were inevtiably revealed to themselves and the world." where did you get this from?
adminofreditt@reddit
You think that half of Israel voted for ben gvir?
Srinema@reddit
The coalition that comprises of Likud, Jewish Power and Religious Zionism makes up 68 of 120 seats. Of the 68, 45 belong to those three parties, Haredi parties hold a combined 18, and the remaining five are shared between a rabidly anti-LGBT single-seat party and a “right-liberal” party.
Literally without the one “liberal” party, the far right still holds a majority.
Therefore the majority of Israeli voters support far right ideology.
adminofreditt@reddit
You changed your argument from, majority of Israel supports ben gvir to the majority of Israel supports far right ideology.
In case you didn't follow the last few Israeli elections Many people that voted for likud don't actually support their ideology, they vote mainly based of identity politics, their arguments are usually because Bibi is more"experienced" then leaders in the left and because they are used to him, another reason they voted for him is because people were tiered from no one successfully forming a coalition. In the last few attempts for elections Israel had multiple elections in which no side got enough votes to form a coalition, that's why likud had to to sit with extreme parties like Jewish power and religious zionism, which are the true extreme parties(not the majority). Probably because of terrible translation I never heard of the party "liberal right", maybe new hope? Calling new hope extreme right is ridiculous. The haredi parties also aren't extreme right they advocate against public transportation in Saturday, against the law of conscription, for making weird expressions to the demands of the education system and more stupid but not far right things, the only reason they are usually with Bibi is because the left isn't willing to sit with them due to different positions on public transportation, law of conscription and most of their ideology(because it is rooted in religion not because it's extreme right. Something you seem to misunderstand is that in coalition government there is no need to have the same opinions or ideology to sit together in a coalition, you need to have some common ground but not support the other parties ideology.
ADP_God@reddit
You are right. It’s the system that empowers ‘kingmakers’.
Objective-Aioli-1185@reddit
Gonna be saying that about the US soon
Level_Hour6480@reddit
If he got the hostages back, he'd have to slow his genocide, and he can't have that.
UltimateSupp0rt@reddit
They kept accusing the Palestinians of sabotaging the cease fire agreement, but every accusation from them is a confession.
What a disgusting person, I hope he gets brought to justice
ADP_God@reddit
It’s also definitely true that Hamas has sabotaged the cease fire agreements. Ben Gvir and Hamas are pretty gross opposites holding their civilians hostage.
brassmonkey666@reddit
When did Hamas do that?
ADP_God@reddit
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/world/middleeast/biden-israel-hamas-cease-fire.html?smid=url-share
TraditionalGap1@reddit
I'm pretty sure you were asked for an example of Hamas sabotaging the ceasefire efforts, not Hamas voicing their opinion of the Biden administrations description of the state of talks
ADP_God@reddit
I can already see I’ve contradicted the echo chamber so there’s little point. Hamas seems to think it’s justified in starting a war, taking hostages, and then being left alone.
https://www.jns.org/us-hamas-formally-rejected-hostage-deal/
brassmonkey666@reddit
Many of the negotiations were foiled by the Israeli side, source
The most recent ceasefire are with almost identical terms that Hamas agreed to and Biden’s State Department pushed for. The articles you share restate Israel’s claims or rejections by Hamas on last minute changes by Israel’s government. This is corroborated by minister Ben Givir’s boasts on foiling hostage deals.
ADP_God@reddit
Yes many. But not all.
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-838114
TraditionalGap1@reddit
See? That wasn't so hard
Baxapaf@reddit
Biden made a PR stunt claiming that progress was being made on ceasefire negotiations, when no such thing had happened, and Hamas called him out on it. that's not the same thing as sabotaging negotiations. If there was a saboteur in that scenario, it was Biden and his state department.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
I like this guy. Says the quiet parts out loud. I find the honesty a refreshing change from the half-truths and lies.
Is he popular because he "says it like it is" and is "saying what everyone is thinking", or are Israelis not ready to admit that one yet?@
ADP_God@reddit
He’s popular because he appeals the the Israelis who no longer believe peace with the Palestinians is at all possible. 7/10 massively increased his popularity.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
It shouldn't be Israeli whim that decides Palestinian self-determination
ADP_God@reddit
This is true in theory, but when Palestinian self determination means building an army and stockpiling weapons to kill Jews, as happened in Gaza, you realize they’re intimately connected.
Killeroftanks@reddit
so by that logic israel shouldnt exists because self determination means building an army and stockpiling weapons to kill Palestinians.
ya you cant really use that argument because it kinda invalidates israel existants as well.
ADP_God@reddit
Not really. Israel could exist peacefully next to Palestine. That’s why they accepted partition, left Gaza, offered peace, etc.
It’s the reverse that is the problem.
Ala117@reddit
lie som more.
ADP_God@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip
Assassinduck@reddit
Do you read the articles you post?
Your terrible form when picking sources that's supposed to show how the Israelis are somehow normal, fine, not insanely racist etc.. doesn't lend much credence to your words
ADP_God@reddit
Of course none of those organizations have ever shown bias on the matter. And of course the general academic community is squarely neutral as a result of its broad real world experience.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-gaza-challenge-stopping-metal-tubes-turning-into-rockets-2021-05-23/
Ala117@reddit
Again, lie some more.
FlyingVolvo@reddit
And the alternative? Violence is not inherently more legitimate because it's perpetrated by a guy in uniform, the rejection of Palestinian self-determination, is simply hedging ones's bet on the opposing side where it seems many have deluded themselves that the oppressive violence that's conducted every day through the occupation and the impunity that Israelis enjoy to perpetuate the killing of hundreds of civilians, including children is hardly a better alternative to Palestinian self-determination(the terms of which is very much TBD).
Ultimately, Israelis won't get security at the expense of Palestinians, and Palestinians won't get security at the expense of Israelis. There's no way to avoid the short and medium term implications of what's being done to Gaza and the West Bank on the topic of violence extremism. Only by looking at more long-term solutions can any path of peaceful co-existence be forged.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
100% correct.
It's why the two-state solution won't cut it. The inability for Israelis and Palestinians alike to access the entirety of Israel/Palestine is time and time again the underlying root cause of the conflict. A single binational state is needed - one where Israelis and Palestinians are equals, unrestricted in their access to their shared homeland, living side-by-side.
Whether Israelis and Palestinians will ever trust each other for that is of course the big issue. At this rate, with Israel and Hamas competing so hard in the War Crime Olympics, I hope for the best but expect the worst.
Killeroftanks@reddit
because that wont work. while palestinians want a two state solution because they dont trust israel now, they dont mind in general to live with others*, israel on the other hand cant live with palestinians, atleast palestinians in a large enough minority to be any "threat" hence the whole keep murdering palestinians they do.
also every time they bring up one state solution they talk about some final solution with palestinians, either by kicking them off the land or genociding them. that doesnt really help things when one side who has the one keeps talking about genocide. its like poles and bringing up about a rearming germany. it makes them twitch.
also that last bit, its not the case, early on they were competing but israel knee capped hamas and just kept running to get as many warcrimes as they can. including being a hypocrite because they love bitching about hamas using medical crews as a cover for their fighters, and israel has two different incidents where they did just that.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
Welcome to the 1.5 state solution and 110-years long mutual independence war
ADP_God@reddit
The sadly unironic war of deradicalisation.
FirefighterOwn5277@reddit
Love the sheer hypocrisy of it all.
Oct 7th is supposed to be the reason for Israelis giving up on peace. But just months before oct 7th the multiple pogroms in Huawara, Turmus Ayya, Urif, and Umm Safa within months and days of each other, were supposed to be just another Tuesday for Palestinians?
ADP_God@reddit
Those attacks were committed by the people who had no faith before. But 7/10 killed/affected many peace activists. Many of the latter group were pushed into the former as a result. Of course those original attacks didn’t happen in a vacuum, as people only remember when it’s convenient.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Hamas officials have referenced Israel by name in interviews (eg demanding them withdraw to 1967 borders). That's tacit recognition from extremists.
If my enemy said that I'd characterise that as pretty generous if I displaced them using terror and violence. Israel doesn't recognise the Nakba.
Painting Arabs as responsible for the entire issue is dishonest garbage
ADP_God@reddit
Except they refer to the ‘yahud’ predominantly in Arabic. The translations tend to ignore this nuance.
Israel recognizes the Nakba as a war that the Arabs started and lost. And, broadly, rejection of Israel is the position held in the region.
FirefighterOwn5277@reddit
So wait saying oct 7th didn't happen in a vacuum is antisemitic but saying that the pogroms didn't happen in a vacuum is A OK? Like is hypocrisy not a word in yr dictionary?
ADP_God@reddit
Nobody mentioned anything about antisemitism who are you talking to?
FirefighterOwn5277@reddit
I am referencing the speech given by the UN head condemning Oct 7th but highlighted that it didn't happen in a vacuum. That speech was labelled as antisemitic by Israel and it's supporters.
ADP_God@reddit
Please link the me the specific one you’re referencing. Something tells me that wasn’t the specifically antisemitic part of it.
jackdeadcrow@reddit
That’s because it’s the conservative’s “the inner group that the law protect but not bind, and the outer group that the law bind but not protect”
lavastorm@reddit
ohh no they arnt just thinking it. theyre shouting it themselves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3F8WY-WW7Y
Rad-eco@reddit
Its the trumpian ploy of making a guy with golden toilet appear relatable
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
That is insane. They are saying the quiet part out loud because they know there will be absolutely no consequences. Netanyahu was supposed to be done when Bennet was elected, yet here we are. Democracy and justice mere afterthoughts in this brave new world of ours.
nabkawe5@reddit
Only democracy in the Middle East that has an non elected government with Netinyaho having been power longer than some Arab dictators.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
What they've done to Syria is an absolute disgrace. One of the greatest exchanges of culture and knowledge the world has ever known now lies in ruin. History will not forget.
undernew@reddit
It was the 14 year long Syrian civil war that destroyed Syria, not Israel. You don't seem to know history in the first place.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
11 agorot has been deposited to your account.
Thank you for your service and keep up the good work.
GothicGolem29@reddit
The Syrian civil war was what destroyed Syria tho?
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
So if Saudi Arabia and Pakistan started arming and funding Islamic extremists in the UK, who then went on to overthrow the British government after destroying the country, you'd consider that a "civil war"?
GothicGolem29@reddit
Yes….. when the gov fights rebel groups that is a civil war even if actors fund them. But it is worth noting the differences between the horrific Assad gov that oppressed Syrians and the Uk gov… Also, the group you are referring to as extremists HTS(as they were the group that toppled Assad with help from the Southern front)were actually funded by Turkey not Israel. Also, hopefully they will have to be well not extremist to work with the southern front and other rebel groups and they do not go down the horrific Assad route
georgeb1904@reddit
“Everyone who disagrees with me is paid shill” every time
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
You must think we're all too stupid to check a post history.
Why do you think so many westerners are flocking to a Chinese social media app? Everything you touch turns to shit. Shitty King Midas.
georgeb1904@reddit
I’m not a paid bot you simpleton, I wish I could get paid for responding to people like you
georgeb1904@reddit
“Everyone who disagrees with me is paid shill” every time
machado34@reddit
They literally reduced the oldest city in the world to rubble. Aleppo was such a vibrant and beautiful place
GothicGolem29@reddit
I’m confused when did Isrsel do that did I miss an Israeli bombing of Aleppo?
RockstepGuy@reddit
A yes, the bombing of Aleppo done by the IDF from 2012 to 2016 i rememember, it totally happened..
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Everything bad that ever happens is Israel's fault, apparently.
Freud-Network@reddit
Don't you have a grail to hide?
undernew@reddit
It was the Assad government together with Russia and Hezbollah that reduced Aleppo to rubbel, not Israel.
jdorm111@reddit
What?
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
They bomb everyone around them into the fucking Stone Age and then play victim every time their neighbors do anything except bend over and take it.
jdorm111@reddit
I dont know what you are saying. Are you claiming Israel bombed Syria to the stone age?
ZippyDan@reddit
While Israel has definitely bombed Syria some, wasn't the Assad regime and Russia responsible for bombing Aleppo (and other Syrian cities) to rubble? Also, ISIL came in and destroyed a lot of historical sites.
nabkawe5@reddit
I can confirm, Israel didn't bomb many non military areas in syria. however considering the patterns if a war erupted that's one of the first things they target.
BrownThunderMK@reddit
I know you’re saying only democracy sarcastically but it’s absolutely insane how they can militarily occupy the 3.5 million Palestinians in West Bank for 50 years, while stealing their land, and still claim to be a democracy. A Jewish supremacist democracy maybe
thepatriotclubhouse@reddit
It's 33 hostages out of 100(not including the babies they wanted the most) for over 1000 convicted terrorists including 72 who directly murdered on October 7th. It's an absolutely insane deal no other country would even entertain. Of course it's deeply contested by the country getting shafted over it.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
I feel 'terrorist' is synonymous with 'enemy of the state' in this case, given how it appears Israel has targeted doctors under the guise of 'hAmAs'.
thepatriotclubhouse@reddit
No it means people who mass raped and killed on October 7th then videod it themselves because they were that unashamed and proud of it lol
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
The detainees all participants of Oct 7?
thepatriotclubhouse@reddit
No but they had agreed to a deal for a set number of criminals, then Hamas added 72 extra who all were participants.
Biosterous@reddit
It's interesting that all of the Israelis being released are "hostages" but all the Palestinians being released are "criminals" or "terrorists". Do you work for CNN by chance?
thepatriotclubhouse@reddit
? Do you not know the story here at all? Neither sides would deny that lol. The Israeli hostages were party goers and families who were taken during October 7th. The people arrested by Israel are Hamas members that they are trading to get back. Lmao this sub sometimes.
Biosterous@reddit
The people taken hostage by Hamas also included IDF and police personnel. Interesting it's never mentioned, just like the focus of October 7th is how a party was targeted and not how other Hamas groups took over Israeli and police areas. Doesn't fit the narrative, does it?
Just like how Israel taking doctors and children hostage, claiming they're "criminals", holding them for years without trial, and finally releasing them without charges isn't mentioned either. Israel only "arrests criminals", they can't possibly take hostages. Just like how only Hamas can use human shields, never the IDF even though they've been observed forcing Palestinian hostages to clear buildings for them and have even strapped some to the hoods of their military vehicles.
Just so we're clear: the USA and Israel consider ~14 year old boys all valid targets because they're "military aged males" regardless of whether or not they're actually a member of a militancy. If we follow that logic to it's conclusion, knowing that Israel drafts all 18 year olds, then every single person killed at the rave was a valid target since they were "military aged people eligible for draft".
Do you really want to take this route?
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
Okay, and how many of them had anything whatsoever to do with the treatment of Gazans?
"USA and Israel do bad things therefore we get to do bad things too" ain't exactly a great argument.
Biosterous@reddit
Any IDF and Israeli police forces have everything you do with the treatment of Palestinians. They enforce the Israeli government's decisions on treatment. That's not what I'm talking about though, I'm saying that they're valid military targets that aren't mentioned because Israeli defenders only want to focus on the civilian casualties.
My other point is that the USA and Israel don't consider males over the age of 14 as civilians because they're "military aged males" and so no one at the music festival should be considered a civilian because they were all draft age.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
I fully understand what you're saying. That doesn't make what you're saying any less abhorrent. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Biosterous@reddit
You're right, they don't. But Israel plays it both ways, claiming any boy who's hit puberty to be a combatant but everyone at the music festival was a civilian. That is abhorrent and dehumanizing.
NeonArlecchino@reddit
The narrative gets worse when you know that the attack was planned for over a year and that the party wasn't even going to be there until a few days prior.
https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/israel-music-festival-attack-artist-manager-account-massacre-1235436829/
The party was never the target of the attack Israel knew was coming, but something that mysteriously wound up where it was going to happen on almost the same day 200 IOF "commandos" were moved from that part of the wall.
I really hope the people of Israel do not stand for such treason and that the trial of Netanyahu is well publicized. So much pain could have been avoided if he didn't want a war to keep himself out of prison.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
What were the crimes of the others you described as terrorists?
dgradius@reddit
And yet isn’t it fascinating hamas is prioritizing the actual murderers for hostage trading instead of the innocent doctors?
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Isn't it fascinating that the Middle East's self-proclaimed 'only democracy', 'defended' by the 'world's most moral army' and being the literal embodiment of 'western values' kidnaps innocent doctors and is no better than Hamas, a 'terrorist organisation'? That's fascinating, right?
dgradius@reddit
It really is, actually!
Nietzsche called it over a century ago.
Gimpknee@reddit
That's an interesting quote, given that Israel has been subjugating Palestinians for longer than Hamas has existed.
dgradius@reddit
The truth is both groups have slaughtered each other on occasion since the place still had “Palestine” in the name, and honestly going back centuries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
Gimpknee@reddit
I gotta tell you, the "both sides have hated each other and killed each other over there in a conflict as old as time" is a very American, ahistoric take, so you're loving up to your purported geography at the very least.
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
It's literally the most historically-supported and evidence-backed take on this conflict there is. Time existed before 1948.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
seems only one of those groups gets a pass though
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Ah yes, the monstrous Palestinians have made Israel look bad
dgradius@reddit
I thought we were talking about hamas.
Do you believe hamas represents all Palestinians?
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Are we talking about Hamas? There's ~46000 dead and they didn't kill themselves
dgradius@reddit
The vast majority of whom would still be alive if hamas surrendered, just saying.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Would Netanyahu allow this, given that he funds them and describes them as an asset?
dgradius@reddit
He’s too cheap to fund them, the Qataris did that with his knowledge and consent.
But yes, much like Trump, Bibi prioritizes his own political well-being above all so once a tool goes renegade he would (and did) absolutely throw them under the bus (or bulldozer, as the case may be).
Put another way, if hamas had surrendered there would simply be no path forward for violent invasion. Even the US wouldn’t sponsor that.
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Haha, bulldozer. Like Rachel Corrie, right? Very funny
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
When did a Netanyahu say that? When did Ben Gvir say that? Neither have said that. This is a genocide of opportunity - Netanyahu made sure Hamas didn’t collapse as he needed the excuse to keep settling the West Bank and now is using them as an excuse to commit genocide.
mwa12345@reddit
True. Sad that palis had to get down to the level of Israelis.
regeust@reddit
Are you actually from St Helena?
Neurobeak@reddit
I'm not following this conflict much, so excuse me if this is a common knowledge, but is Hamas holding babies as hostages for more than a year? Is this not a figure of speech?
soyyoo@reddit
Hamas is a 35 year old organization retaliating 70+ years of r/israelcrimes on 🇵🇸 land
Neurobeak@reddit
What does this have to do with my question? Fighting against kids is barbaric, period. Both IDF and Hamas do this, and I think very lowly of both of them. I wanted to just clear this question dor myaelf as I haven't heard before about it.
thepatriotclubhouse@reddit
So yes they literally do have babies hostage for over a year lmao
thepatriotclubhouse@reddit
No they are lol.
Neurobeak@reddit
That's awful :/
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Funny Number Gang strikes again.
dgradius@reddit
The babies and family appear to be on the published list: Ariel Bibas, Yarden Bibas, Kfir Bibas, Shiri Bibas
Taken from https://jpost.com/breaking-news/article-838001
cultish_alibi@reddit
I thought they just wanted the hostages back. Apparently not.
How many are left alive after Israel flattened Gaza? We know the IDF shot at least 3 of them dead after they said "don't shoot" in Hebrew. And since something like 60% of buildings are destroyed by bombs that's probably around 60% of hostages killed that way too.
thanif@reddit
Can you verify that please? I don’t see it in the article.
Stubbs94@reddit
Obviously anyone Israel has in their internment camps is a terrorist.... They wouldn't just round up innocent people like doctors, aid workers, children and journalists....
lavastorm@reddit
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/14/israel2
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/
Stubbs94@reddit
I was joking mate, Israel regularly kidnaps innocent people, but it's good to show the depravity of the Israeli occupation force.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
When exactly were they convicted? I was under the impression none of the detained Palestinians had actually faced trial.
strawapple1@reddit
Lmao you mean 1000 children israel snatched without trial to torture in concentration camps
Level-Technician-183@reddit
There is something i like about this guy, he is an honest one. No beating around the bush, no lying about his racism and intentions. He hides nothing about what he wants to do. Though such thing is not so unusual for the israeli government but at least he does not cry the crocodile tears when the palestinians are mentioned.
Idk why israel keeps such people in its government though, it is like having mini saddams in control then wonder why the world hates them so badly...
L_o_n_g_b_o_i@reddit
Yeah. If I have to hear more fake wailing about 'if only the Palestinians loved their children more than they hated us' and 'the loss of innocents is tragic but blame Hamas, I'm not gonna make it
Kate090996@reddit
I think they are bots or something because they say the same thing about one subject. More people said this about liking the guy because " he says it as it is"
Level-Technician-183@reddit
Idk about the guy next to me but, i love choco milk, dr. Pepper, tiddies, sour dolma, shawarma, and i have shitloads of typos whenever i comment. I think that should be enough to clear my name at the very least. Not willing to do a varification pic but it is possible for sure
frackingfaxer@reddit
Israel used to ban Kahanist parties. Today not only are they legal, they're in the governing coalition, mainly because Netanyahu needs them for a working majority.
teslawhaleshark@reddit
Of all the countries spawned by the Osmali empire collapse...
mcnewbie@reddit
this is an altered quote from golda meir, former prime minister of israel, and an unapologetic zionist apologist. i had to add this notation because the quote itself was too short for the automoderator.
speedyspeedys@reddit
Convicted terrorist Ben Gvir? Met his now wife when she was 15 and he was 26 Ben Gvir? Had posters of a terrorist in his house like a shrine Ben Gvir? Took his wife on a date to a terrorists grave Ben Gvir?
JMoc1@reddit
This guy really needs to be on a Behind the Bastards Episode
dgradius@reddit
I’m not sure he’s significant enough
Private_HughMan@reddit
He's definitely significant enough. But BtB tends to focus on more Western bastards who are more well-known to their audience. Gvir might be too niche for their mostly American listeners.
Chloe1906@reddit
Netanyahu has two episodes on BtB!
ipponiac@reddit
There are far worse bastards solely in the said colony. What makes this one is special that he is also good at politics. On the otherhand US public should know who they are funding. Of course that one is more of a political venture than the entertainment/infotainment one.
SweetLoLa@reddit
Can someone ELI5 how this fool is still breathing air? I would assume he’d be public enemy #2 in this fight, like Goebbels under Hitler type scenario.
Next_Snow9064@reddit
just like how goebbels wasn't disliked that much in Germany, most of Israel is fine with ben gvir
Killeroftanks@reddit
simple. israel has a history of terrorists and the state supporting terror groups, and well israelis dont want to admit they themselves have their own terrorist groups. in this case a terrorist group that is also a political group.
which is funny because Hezbollah exists. and israel very much wanted to decreddit them from being a legit political group because theyre a terrorist group as well.
jackdeadcrow@reddit
Because he’s very popular in Israel, and not a lot people are particularly against him. a fact that most Israel supporters from outside the country don’t like to admit.
sarim25@reddit
They say even worse things in the Hebrew versions of Israeli news outlets. This is crazy that Israel has genocidal and warmongering ministers. It isn't an actual democracy
Tasgall@reddit
Democracy doesn't mean peaceful and with modern moral sensibilities. It just means governance by the will of the people. If the people are shit and they elect shit leaders, it's still a democracy.
ycnz@reddit
It very much is a democracy. Democracies can be evil just fine, you just need the citizens to be evil.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-deep-divisions-on-gaza-war-goals-as-post-october-7-solidarity-dissipates/
adminofreditt@reddit
It isn't a democracy because some people voted for ben gvir?
BuyShoesGetBitches@reddit
Not a single Western country, and perhaps very few countries in the world has members of government that are clear and open terrorists. And this is not some revolution or coup, those people were elected and have support within the citizens. So I cannot say "this is not Israelis, this is this certain individual, and Israelis do not share his views", it's exactly the opposite. Israelis have truly become the monsters they suffered from in the past.
Onuus@reddit
Doesn’t everyone remember when this man was handling our assault rifles to settlers basically saying, ‘go on, have at it!’
I hope no one is anyone surprised by this. Dude is a vile excuse for a human.
I really hope some day he’ll get his
shieeet@reddit
Crass perhaps, but can we all agree that Gil Dickmann is a real doozy of a name?