If you could change one thing about the Middle East, what would it be?

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johndelopoulos@reddit

"And there is a considerable interaction between them" about zero in real life, and daily routine. All "interactions" end in reddit

Anyway, I think that Balkan people do not feel or see the middle east in a different way than other Europeans do. So my answer would be "secularism" and human rights. But then again, why should the middle east change and follow western standards? Because Western people say so?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bazaar,_Skopje ^ this person isn't to be taken seriously since they said Balkans do not know such a thing as bazaars

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johndelopoulos@reddit

if you bother comparing the Old Bazaar of Skopje, which is not "the Balkans", it is the most Ottoman influenced country in Christian Balkans, it lacks Arabic decoration, selling Arabic items, or having Arabic pointed arches, like Istanbul grand bazaar for example does

Yes, there is no such a thing as an ORIENTAL Bazaar in Balkans, if you know what this is on first place

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Why are you moving goal posts now? Bosnia and N. Macedonia with bazaars aren't Balkans? They also do not sell Arabic stuff/have Arabic decoration so they do not count as one? I do not even know what they sell at Grand Bazaar in Turkey. It's not a place average Turk frequents but keep talking

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johndelopoulos@reddit

grand bazaar is a pretty typical Turkish place, and all things I mentioned, from things sold there, decoration and outter architecture is as Arabic as it takes. Which you will not find in Northern Macedonia and Bosnia. As for your question, yes they are in Balkans, but being the most Ottoman (and therefore the most Arabic/Persian_ influenced places in Balkans, they are outliers, not the norm. Go to Dalmatia, Corfu, Pelloponnese, Montenegro and start counting Bazaars of other Ottoman stuff, to see how dwarf they are

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Even Western Europe has open marketplaces now due to the immigration, this argument is stupid

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johndelopoulos@reddit

That is what I am trying to explain to your retarded brain, that open markets exist everywhere (and has nothing to do with immigration, we have open markets since 1970s), meanwhile ORIENTAL BAZAARS as we see them in Turkey and NOT in Balkans are not a thing you will find in Europe, yet a core thing in Turkey and Arabic countries

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Open markets here are a lot more common than bazaars as well. Grand Bazaar is built by Egyptians and mainly caters to tourists

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johndelopoulos@reddit

and it's core in Turkish culture, like all other similar Bazaars of Turkey.

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desertedlamp4@reddit

That's like the only covered bazaar I ever knew in my life. Turks do not even shop there

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johndelopoulos@reddit

you are in 2025. People shop in the internet, regardless from being in Turkey, Ghana, Portugal, Iceland or Guatemala. That is not our issue as you probably understand

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desertedlamp4@reddit

We have open air marketplaces, can you show me more bazaars from different cities especially?

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I already showed 4 examples. Do you really need more habibi?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Bazaar,_Istanbul https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice_Bazaar literally just two covered bazaars

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johndelopoulos@reddit

if you mean "I just posted two covered bazaars" indeed you did. if you want more, there you go:

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g298006-d302541-r138837689-Kemeralti_Market-Izmir_Izmir_Province_Turkish_Aegean_Coast.html

https://www.tripadvisor.com.gr/Attraction_Review-g652369-d2614382-Reviews-The_Grand_Bazaar_of_Edirne-Edirne_Edirne_Province.html

and Dozens or hundreds of more. Turkish and other middle eastern people were pioneers at making malls before it was cool :D

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Edirne is a European city lmao

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johndelopoulos@reddit

not yet, it will become when Turks and Arabs become majority in Berlin :D

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Great chunk of what you're sending are also open air

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desertedlamp4@reddit

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johndelopoulos@reddit

lol literally Saudi scenery but with green and trees around :D

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desertedlamp4@reddit

THOSE BAZAARS ARE BUILT BY TURKS. THEY'RE PART OF OUR CULTURE

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johndelopoulos@reddit

THEN APOLOGIES FOR BALKANS THAT THEY DO NOT OBSERVE THEIR ORIGINAL ARABIC CHARACHTER OF THESE BAZAARS, SINCE THE TURKS LEFT

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desertedlamp4@reddit

NOBODY WAS SPEAKING ABOUT ARABIC CHARACTERS???? YOU JUST MOVED GOAL POSTS

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johndelopoulos@reddit

NO I WAS CLEAR SINCE THE TIME I USED THE TERM "ORIENTAL" IN FRONT OF "BAZAARS"

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desertedlamp4@reddit

In your initial messages to people you just typed bazaars

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desertedlamp4@reddit

You also ignored all other bazaars we have

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Don't worry, I never disputed that a middle eastern country is full of Bazaars, of all types :D

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Bro in Greece you eat Arab food and have cities named after Arab ones such as Tripoli lmaoaoa

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Bro you called bazaars built by Turks in the Balkans to be not considered Turkish bazaars AND gave the Grand Bazaar example which was built by Turks, not Egyptians, why should I listen to you?

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Installing enlightened dictatorship with secular values, and let people choose only their mayors etc.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I think that when they asked the specific question, they didnt expect answer from ANOTHER middle eastern country

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

sorry?

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I mean, that you answer as if you do not also live in the middle east. Despite you do

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

for your information i born in istanbul with balkan ancestry, grow up there, its literally the balkans!

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johndelopoulos@reddit

If you ever visit Balkans, you will see that places like Istanbul Grand bazaar are not a thing there

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Bro Balkans have bazaars, Skopje does have one for instance, even they're spreading to the rest of Europe due to immigrants. You're not fooling anyone with "we've never seen a bazaar". It's not even possible in this day of age lmao

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johndelopoulos@reddit

are you officially damb? Bazaars are found everywhere in the world. ORIENTAL BAZAARS like the one in istanbul, with interior Arabic decoration, selling Arabic like Items and having Arabic Pointed arches on its architecture are not common even in Skopje, which is the MOST Turkish influenced nation in the Christian Balkan countries

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Yes you wanted an example and I gave you, North Macedonia and Bosnia are a couple Balkan countries to come up to my mind to be built by TURKS. Like it's not even from someone else. Grand Bazaar was built by Egyptians if I am not mistaken so it's a complete different case

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johndelopoulos@reddit

you did not post any example, as long as what you posted has NOTHING to do with an ORIENTAL Bazaar, similar to Istanbul grand bazaar, Izmir grand bazaar and basically the oriental bazaar of ANY Turkish city.

"So it's a complete different case" yes, indeed, a construction in the heart of the Ottoman capital and biggestcity of Turkish republic is a different case. What a guy

remove your language (which even that is 1/5 Arabic by vocabulary) and there is technically no measurable or non-measurable difference between Turks and Arabs

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Your culture is Middle Eastern, you have several Arab foods, several Greek cities named after Arab ones, your Cypriot people heavily cluster with Western Asians, you have Greek Orthodox Christians in Syria, Lebanon etc. This argument is stupid and pointless. You'll always be culturally closer to a Turk than a Norwegian bar religion but then even Europe is diverse with Christian sections and there's also Muslim Balkans nations

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

I lived in Athens like 3 years, its literally same as İzmir. I ve been all over Balkans and yes its extremely similar with west/north western Turkey. Specially northern greece, lol,

and i can be middle eastern if you want, there is nothing wrong with that, i dont have identity problems.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Literally the same as Izmir regarding modern 1950s blocks? I will agree, and the same goes for many cities around the world, middle east included. But that is not the point, or what defines middle east, Europe etc.

If you get deeper into traditional architecture, and claim that Athens has anything with Arabic horseshoe arches (see Izmir clock tower) or that Izmir has the neoclassicism and Southern European architecture of the traditional part of Athens (Plaka, Panepistimiou Stadiou etc) then you would be a pathoogical liar.

Northern and Western Turkey has the same architecture with ONLY Northern Greece, as much as with Balkans, AND LEvantine Arabs: Sahnisi/Mashrabiya bey windows, with difference being that Turkish and Arabic architecture ALSO have Arabic pointed Arches and horseshoe arches that Balkans and Northern Greece lack

Southern Grece and most of Greek islands have nothing in common architecturally speaking

Ok, sorry for saying that you live in Turkey Comar :D

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

nope, people are same, how they look, how they eat etc,

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johndelopoulos@reddit

So, yo went to Athens, and people there started their day with tea, and ate Lahmacun, Tavuk goktsu, or Manti? Did they drink raki, or did people in Izmir start their dna with freddo/frappe coffee, or drunk tea? Did they eat Pastitsio, or gourounopoula? maybe kokoras me hillopites? I ask you things you are familiar with, if you have been to both cities. And if they are "the same" as you suggest, then the answer is easy to you. Either proving it, or admitting being wrong

Also, in all trips to Turkey, honestly, people looked too balloon headed for Greek standards, like Armenians

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desertedlamp4@reddit

If we look like Armenians with balloon heads then that's good news since Armenians contemplating applying to EU. I am literally whiter than most Greeks I know. You just type word salad. One could just look at what your prime minister looks like

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johndelopoulos@reddit

"I am whiter than most Greeks I know" and most Greeks you know are whiter than most of Turks. Races are not judged by a specific infividual

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desertedlamp4@reddit

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South_Mousse_462@reddit

not to ruin your moment but He looks Spanish/Portuguese lol so he is still white now let’s see Turkish politicians 😂

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desertedlamp4@reddit

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Erdogan looks what he is: a balloon headed caucasian. Unlike Long-faced/long headed Mitsotakis, typical Southern European

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Also the other guy was saying he looks Armenian and Iraqi, can you Greeks make up your minds?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Greek president

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Gaziantep mayor

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South_Mousse_462@reddit

He looks mesomotopian/armenoid 🤣 are you dumb ?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

He's from the Black Sea region and Georgia so that's not possible

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Btw Erdogan is literally paler lmao

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South_Mousse_462@reddit

Some Italians are as dark as Arabs but they still have European features that’s what I’m trying to prove you here , your poeple could be lighter but they still look west asiatic/ mesopotamian Are you thick in the head ?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Are you thick in the head? How does he look any different from the Greek pm?

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South_Mousse_462@reddit

This guy look gracile while the Greek pm has sloppier forehead and wider jaw and the eye area looks different too

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desertedlamp4@reddit

You just accused a guy from the Black Sea region to be Armenian and Iraqi even though that region isn't famous for having those people

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Have your Spanish

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South_Mousse_462@reddit

He is 100% right I lived in Istanbul and the people literally look indistinguishable from Armenians + Greeks as as well Bulgarians have north euro influence in their phenotypes that Turks rarely have

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johndelopoulos@reddit

for some reason I can't explain they take official reality as an insult, while honestly I never implied any inferiority on looking like Armenians etc.

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

I AM NOT A ÇOMAR gif

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DranzerKNC@reddit

Not gonna work. Kemalist revolution had 400 years of conformity on separation of powers, 200 years of westernization, 100 years of Napoleonic administration code, 50 years of constitutional and parliamentary experience under its belt it in case of Republic of Turkey. Ottomans seeing themselves as heir of Rome instead of Caliphate also another factor in Turkish case.

The Soviets tried what you offered already. Assad regime was the most recent example until Bashar fled to Russia. It won’t work.

The Middle East is the region where modern history starts. There is no other region in the world as deep as it is. Therefore the hatred, the racism and sectarianism it has is also unrivaled. We never was a true part of it. The Turks being a skilled soldiers with their swords let Ottomans to rule this region in peace by nothing but brute force, which only delayed the essence of main problems.

What I’m trying to say is, no one in the world except original Middle Easterners can find a solution for Middle East. You either turn them in to subjects by brute force and force them to obey your orders like Ottomans did or there is nothing you can do except letting them to solve their problems from a safe distance.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

why do you speak as if you are less (or no) part of the middle east, or as if there was any actual "westernization" among Turkish people in history?

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DranzerKNC@reddit

Turkey is part of Middle East and honestly I’m proud to be influenced by and being part of such ancient region.

However, judging by geographical, linguistic, cultural, historical, social and political factors, it never been a original part of Middle East. It is almost impossible for a foreign nation to completely be part of Middle East. Armenians and Greeks have a better shot considering they were here way before Turks took these lands for themselves.

Turkey actually is a well westernized country. The Anatolian plate is a new one with little to no resources, and extremely mountainous with deep forests that makes investing over infrastructure harder and expensive. Considering every challenge it has faced been, and judging where it stands today, I can easily say it is a good example of adapting western way of things mixing it with your own culture.

In the end, Turkey is the only country in the Balkans and Middle East that can produce anything and almost everything from basic medical drugs to complex military technologies. And it did that without oil or EU funds, but challenging against lack of resources and Western sanctions, never ending threats from Russia and Middle East.

And i already gave some tips on reasons already. The process leans all the way through Sokullu Government 500 years ago.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Culturally and socially speaking, there is no difference between Turkey and any other middle eastern country, while such a thing as "linguistically middle eastern" does not exist. Greece rather, despite having influences from the middle east, from few to many, depending upon region, these are dwarf compared to what Turkey has, and the same to an extend goes for Armenia.

The only sector to which Turkey is "westernized" is the geopolitic one, and even that not that much lately

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DranzerKNC@reddit

Well mate, you’d become a fun material in any serious academic events with such ideas. You sound like someone desperately needs a loving mother so I won’t abuse you further.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

That's a nice way to say "I have no way to prove you wrong, and if we start discussing any sector of Turkish culture/social structure you will destroy me" I guess :D

Otherwise, you can say where exactly I am wrong, and start exchanging arguments to support our claims

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DranzerKNC@reddit

You sound like a person experiencing psychosis, disorientation or hallucination. Better consult a professional.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I can suffer from whatever you want. Until you post a single thing that proves me wrong, my arguments are right.

To give a sample your family type is idenntical to Arabs and Persians (See Emmanuel todd), while most of your foreign words are Arabic as well. You are also Sunni muslims. Want more?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

I am not even sure what your point is, you just said Arabic influence in language and religion Islam because apparently Albania and Bosnia do not exist for you. You sound like you'd make a good friend at parties xD

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Albania and bosnia do not have 1/5 of their vocabulary in Arabic. They do not use Arabic pointed and horseshoe arches in local architecture (except a few Mosques of the Ottoman era), their family styles is not identical to Arabic (see Emmanuel todd), they do not eat lahmacun, kunefeh (knafeh) or Tavuk goktsu, and Albania in particular has ALSO pentatonic music, not 100% oriental. Want more?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadayif_(pastry) you can visit pretty much any Middle Eastern/Turkish food page and they're almost always exclusively mentioned to be eaten by Balkan people and that's enough for me. Even smaller things such as turnip juice. It's mostly similar

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Are you able to coprehend what I write? I mentioned 3 examples of Turkish/Arabic dishes that balkans do NOT eat, and I can mention a LOT of dishes of Balkans that are unknown to Turks/Arabs. At the same time, bother post a single Turkish-Balkan shared dish that is not common in Arabic countries?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Boza is originally Central Asian which exists both in Turkey and the Balkans

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desertedlamp4@reddit

And most of the DNA tests classify Anatolia as a separate region, it's not part of the Levant or Iranian plateau for example

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I don't see where i referred to DNA, but still even by DNA Anatolia is WITHING WEST ASIA. Not European, unlike Balkans. Balkan Turks rather are European. Which means Turkified native Balkaners

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desertedlamp4@reddit

So you mean just like Cypriots. I see all DNA tests grouping the Cypriot nation with West Asians

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Yes, Cypriots are (genetically) Western Asian (but with European admixture from Greece and to a lower extend venetians) as well, even though I don;t know what this has to do with the question

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_MekkeliMusrik@reddit

this john guy is either a weird nationalist or a rage baiter. I have came across his replies/comments about turkey and they are all same

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

To long to read, I would install a good one don’t worry.

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DranzerKNC@reddit

And you would end up fleeing to Russia as well.

The law is mixing pot of habits of a nation and the orders of the ruler of that nation.

You can’t force enlightenment to a nation doesn’t want to be get enlightened. Enlightenment is sustainable process of illation emerging by suffering.

Good luck forcing gay rights in Libya with your installed dictatorship though. Because you yourself might need it in the end.

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Montenegro has civil unions despite strong opposition from the public, in Latin America too when they enacted all anti-discrimination laws and legalized gay marriage most of their population was deeply homophobic. These are all so on average more religious places but instead Christian. I am not sure how it would end in the Middle East but we gotta start from something from somewhere

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Yes

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desertedlamp4@reddit

I disagree that Assad was secular

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ChumQuibs@reddit

Bashar Assad was a secular dictator.

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desertedlamp4@reddit

To call Baathist Syria secular is a disgrace to Ataturk's Turkey. Just because he had a blonde unveiled wife and women dressed as however they wanted do not make the state secular but I guess our expectations there are pretty low xD the state's constitution literally stated all laws must be based on Sharia and declared that the president must be a Muslim. They segregated public schools by sex. Gross

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ChumQuibs@reddit

Ataturk was also a dictator sunshine. If it wasn't for the soviet threat and the US requirement for Turkey to switch to democracy from single party regime we would be mostly likely second to the soviet style of government where a bunch of secularist elite governing people. I also don't understand why you felt the need to compare the Baath regime to Ataturk'e one since the dynamics of the both countries were very different in terms of social construction and the cultural inheritance.

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desertedlamp4@reddit

I am not talking about democracy? My post was solely on secularism. Are we seeing the same post?

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ChumQuibs@reddit

You making a comparison with Assad's Syria to Ataturk one gave me the impression that it was your sole source to base your understanding of secularism. Assad and his army were literally pumping the claim of being a secular/nationalist government where they were fighting against the jihadist, and kemalists were giving him credit for that claim. And you coming up with his wife not wearing a headscarf tells a lot. Your understanding of secularism is shallow and a product of lifelong propoganda of Ataturk's regime that was mostly imposed by Kenan Evren.

Shaira is not understood and practiced well in any Arab country since they don't have any other source to base their law because of cultural and historical reasons. They claim to have sharia based law when in fact its just a mixture of cultural items that is used as a tool to govern the population of the middle east for their own interests.

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desertedlamp4@reddit

You again did not read my posts, their public schools were separated by sex for most part, abortion wasn't legal and constitution declared president to be of Muslim faith. And you have comprehension issues again. I did not mean Assad's wife being an unveiled blonde woman is a sign of secularism. It was what people were saying so I stated I disagree with people

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

I meant enlightened, like moral one, also let’s just wait and see if Assad was better or new ex jihadist gangs…

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ChumQuibs@reddit

Oligarchy has no place in post-modern world. Promoting dictatorship regardless of their political stance does not make it any better.

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Sounds good enough for me.

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PavKaz@reddit

enlightened dictatorship, these words together create a bomb

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Still better than any Islamic republics

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OkRaspberry1035@reddit

People actually prefer Islamic republics to secular dictatorships, at least until they learn faults of political Islam

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

That’s the point, it’s not important what they prefer, let them choose mayor and decide what color taxis will be etc

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OkRaspberry1035@reddit

One secular dictator like Ataturk per country.

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Barrerayy@reddit

I'd remove islam from the region, actually no I'd just get rid of religion completely.

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CalydonianBoar@reddit

The problem is not exactly Islam, the problem is the lack of secularism. There used to be more tolerance in the past too.

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Barrerayy@reddit

Egh islam isn't exactly the most tolerant of religions but yes secularism is something that the region desperately needs. Turkey could use some of that too these days

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desertedlamp4@reddit

"Woman arrested for declaring having wanting to have sex with 100 men in a day"

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Barrerayy@reddit

I don't see how this warrants arrest. If both parties are consenting what's the problem

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CalydonianBoar@reddit

Islam during some periods of history used to be tolerant of Christians or Jews, but once in a while one muslim ruler will utilise religion to divert the discontent of the masses towards religious minorities. But this has happend with Christian rulers too

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Middle_Trouble_7884@reddit

The Mongol destruction of Baghdad in 1258 is often seen as a turning point for the Muslim world. It marked the end of the Abbasid Caliphate, devastated intellectual centers, and caused immense trauma. Many argue this event contributed to a shift towards stricter theological interpretations and a retreat from the openness that once characterized Islamic civilization, as scholars of that era or later emphasized rigid theistic teachings in response to the upheaval. However, it wasn’t the sole cause, as other factors like internal divisions and changing political dynamics also played a role

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desertedlamp4@reddit

I was told on Twitter some days ago it wasn't like that always and external powers played a role xD I am sure when y'all expelled all the Jews from the Arab world it was Britain/France doing in favor of you (/j)

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Key-Material9587@reddit

There are Muslim countries in Europe aswell and it doesn’t seem like a big problem does it? The problem is not Islam itself but rather people that excuse their bad actions with our belief. Don’t forget Judaism and Christianity originate from the same region Islam originated, the problem is not the belief but the people

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backroomsresident@reddit

This is the way.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

I don't see how are Balkans and Middle east intertwined, except for the sinking boats full of migrants that Turkie sents to demand stuff from us.

You can pick from my choices:

Instill feminism in every woman there Make everyone agnostic or secular Reborn the eastern part of the Byzantine Empire.

You can choose any you like.

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desertedlamp4@reddit

Turkey couldn't stop all migrants even if it wanted it to, how could we keep a check on literal millions of people inside our borders actively? And the demanding stuff thing only ever happened once during the decade of us hosting refugees here constantly. Calm your tits

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Yeah other than being couple of steps away from it, Middle East has nothing to do with balkans!!

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

Only connection is that the Balkans are a route for migrants towards Europe. What other special relations there are?

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ilijadwa@reddit

Ottoman history and countries/groups of people with fragile relations with eachother (including Christians and Muslims)

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

So that makes us intertwined with most of the world. There is no special relation between the Balkans and ME, only OP sees something special

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ilijadwa@reddit

Well most of the world doesn’t have history with the ottomans (like we do at least) so I don’t really agree there. O

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ilijadwa@reddit

Well most of the world doesn’t have history with the ottomans (like we do at least) so I don’t really agree there.

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Just said nothing to do with it other than being few steps away!!

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Spagete_cu_branza@reddit

By that logic Italy and Spain are African countries right??

Unless perhaps you consider Turkey a middle eastern country. Which i guess it is. A middle eastern-asia country.

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

I can say that according to your logic, the Balkans are the Middle East just because they are neighbors, because you made a tasteless "joke" about Spain and Italy being African countries just because they are neighbors. Also are you aware of a language called Maltese? This is what we call cultural interaction.

What I am saying is that the Balkans interact with the Middle East, and if we were to think with your logic and count Edirne, Istanbul, etc. as the Middle East, the Balkans would already be the Middle East at the same time, but it is not.

As for Turkey, Turkey is big, and it is both a Balkan and a Middle Eastern country at the same time, because there is a huge difference between the west and east of the country, and if we count the northeast of the country, it extends to the Caucasus. Turkey is a Eurasian country, it contains much more than one element.

please stop talking nonsense about things you have no knowledge about.

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DranzerKNC@reddit

Make everyone agnostic/secular or make them reborn as eastern part of Byzantine Empire? Which one? Because if you pick one, the other one will become impossible.

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CalydonianBoar@reddit

The Byzantine Empire was medieval and theocratic for sure. Right now, we need more secularism and materialism

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dorobica@reddit

Arguably first two points would be good for Romania too

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big_cat112@reddit

I would bring secularism

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azzurro99@reddit

Like Baathist regimes?

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desertedlamp4@reddit

I am not sure what they understand from secularism but Baathist Syria had abortion, homosexual relations outlawed, public classes segregated by sex and the constitution stated all laws must be based on Sharia and that the president must be a Muslim. If we take into account women dressing up freely, Assad blonde unveiled wife, then yeah you can call it "secular" after you conveniently ignored all the core issues. To me to call this regime "secular" is a disgrace to Ataturk's Turkey

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bafometu@reddit

It would be great until the Americans start funding Islamist fundamentalist groups to destabilize the region lmfao

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ExtensionQuarter2307@reddit

Baathist Syria and Iraq: 👀

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

Love your point

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Vespri1282@reddit

I would simply Remove Americans from constantly invading and causing Wars and atrocities, other than that, the Middle East is fine, with many Great People

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HistoriaArmenorum@reddit

eliminate the uncivilized turkic presence, keep the civilized iranian and arabs but Christianize them into eastern rite Catholicism and consequently ban inbreeding with close cousins through the religious change.

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MegasKeratas@reddit

Make it all greek again (MIAGA)

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DranzerKNC@reddit

Never been Greek. Greece herself heavily influenced by Middle East, end up being part of it during Byzantine times.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

if by "heavily influenced" you refer to Phoenecians, forget that all these "heavy influences" are part of ALL European countries' culture today, Phoenecians themselves were not middle eastern. Middle East is not just an area, it is a whole socio-cultural concept, and can't be perceived without Islam, And Arabic-Persian influences. both of which absent in the ancient Levant

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Middle_Trouble_7884@reddit

Hey man what are you saying? Are you telling me the Middle East in the past was not Middle East? The Phoenicians were not Middle Eastern? Are you tripping? What were they then? Europeans? Or black Africans?

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I am not "trying anything", I just describe

Yes, I am saying that middle east (more or less like Europe itself) are way more recent concepts than in the era of phoenecians.

In late Roman times, a Levantine Roman had more in common with a Romanized Gaul, than with a Saudi Arab, and that is a fact, regardless from my "mindset"

Also, when did I say that I identiy with ancient Greeks only? I have confirmed admixture from Slavs, and north italians who invaded my country centuries ago, thinking that modern Greeks are 100% descendants of Socrates is delusional, as much as it is delusional to think that there is zero ancient Greek admixture in modern Greece

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Middle_Trouble_7884@reddit

In late Roman times, a Levantine Roman had more in common with a Romanized Gaul, than with a Saudi Arab, and that is a fact, regardless from my "mindset"

Well, a Saudi Arab is a Gulf Arab, not a Levantine. So the comparison doesn’t even make sense. I’m not sure if you realize that. Why bring up Saudis when talking about Levantines, like the Lebanese, some Syrians, Palestinians, etc.?"

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h1ns_new@reddit

John how were phoenicians not middle eastern lol

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johndelopoulos@reddit

the middle east is a concept that describes far more recent political, economic and Socio-cultural norms, which are "imported" in the area after the Arabo-Islamic invasions, and all the changes they bring. Technically if you travelled to Judea or Assyria in Byzantine times, you would find in the area nearly as much in common with Saudi Arabia as with France of this time, if not more things in common with the latter.

That dramatically changed after the Arabic expansion

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DranzerKNC@reddit

I’m not talking about Phoenicians. It is just the tip of the iceberg. It is unnecessarily long subject to explain honestly. If you have specific questions I can explain but I can’t reply with a total answer in this situation.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

Then Greece has not been "heavily influenced" by the middle east. All middle eastern influences Greece has are Ottoman, which range from heavy to non-existent depending upon region, but on average, I would not say they are heavy. Not even Bulgaria or NM have "heavy" ottoman, thus middle eastern, influenes

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iamakeyboardwarri0r@reddit

Typical Turk answer. Nothing is Greek. Except your dna right? lol

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DranzerKNC@reddit

I did not say that with hostile emotions towards Greece. Saying Middle East is Turkish would be absurdity as well. The “Middle East” is deeper and heavier than both Greece and Turkey. You can rule Middle East by brute force but you can’t influence them on major scale. It is more likely that Middle East will influence you instead hence it is exactly what happened to both Turkey and Greece.

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Middle_Trouble_7884@reddit

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, but your point isn't entirely wrong. Since ancient times, the Greeks have had a presence in the Middle East, and the Greek alphabet originates from the Phoenician alphabet. Additionally, beyond Italy, the richest provinces of the Roman Empire were in North Africa and the Middle East. Let’s not forget the Sea Peoples, including Sardinians, Sicilians, and other Mediterranean groups, who raided Egyptians for their wealth. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all originated in the Middle East, a region rich in culture, history, and land. While it’s a significant region that influences and is influenced by others, smaller actors like Greece and its city-states in the past were more likely to be shaped by the Middle East than to shape it

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interlen3754@reddit

Greece definetely influenced the Middle East, they hellenized the entire region

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Imaginary_String_814@reddit

doubt it, nobody considers Greece heavily influenced by Middle East apart from turks

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DranzerKNC@reddit

I did not say that to insult Greece. I actually did said that to praise Greek culture. And if you can’t see that as an Austrian, that’s your problem. And actually a good example for how blind Western Europe is.

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Imaginary_String_814@reddit

ur statement is just wrong and ty for proving ur bias.

I am a bosnian serb born and raised in Vienna. I know turks and their opinion on greece dont worry.

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master-desaster-69@reddit

What platform did the ancient influencers use?

Just kidding 😆

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orestaras@reddit

Right! Why not have like 500 milion muslim of every single cluster inside our border?

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User20242024@reddit

this one is easy: allow people of Gaza to flee to Egypt.

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minkadominka@reddit

religion

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meRomania1@reddit

Amen

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meRomania1@reddit

Remove the americans!

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Amazing-Row-5963@reddit

I would remove Israel, and I don't mean genociding the Jews... Just make a history where the state of Israel never becomes a thing and hundreds of thousands of Jews from all over the world don't move there.

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OkRaspberry1035@reddit

Not a chance if you don’t remove WW2.

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Amazing-Row-5963@reddit

Maybe, the Arabs winning the 1948 war then? It's probably gonna cause some mistreatment of the Jews, but way less human suffering then what we have seen in the last 70 years.

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Suitable-Ad8983@reddit

Less suffering? That’s a joke. Please seek help and get real.

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OkRaspberry1035@reddit

Arabs couldn’t win 1948. Israel had support of both, USSR and USA.

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Amazing-Row-5963@reddit

Ok, bro. I am not going to now discussing what could've happened. The question is "If you could change one thing", meaning it doesn't really matter whether we think it was possible or not.

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OkRaspberry1035@reddit

Nope. The rule is that you don’t want to introduce change that must have been enforced by alien space bats. If you wanted Arabs to win you must even before 1948 give them leader, army, weapons and possibly made Stalin know that Israel in the future will be American ally and not Soviet, as he believed. Plus make Americans stick to FDR promise to Saudis king given on US ship that they will not support Israel. If we have UK, USSR and USA united against Zionists (however, this mean they need to have an alternative plan for homeland for Jews-Saarland?) and Arabs united and well armed the founding of Israel could have been avoided.

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Amazing-Row-5963@reddit

The question is one change. Look at the other comments, they don't explain how their change comes to be.

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OkRaspberry1035@reddit

I don’t suport telling fairy tales. I support alternative history what if.

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Amazing-Row-5963@reddit

It doesn't matter what you support. The question from OP is different.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

Only way to save the region is to occupy all the Palestine (Israel is included), maybe Lebanon too, for 100 / 200 years by UN forces, after all the fanatics died you brainwash the kids to live together, let them build together a country.

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athe085@reddit

The Jews won't survive a 1948 defeat probably

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DoNotMakeEmpty@reddit

IIRC Israel was a thing before WW2, at least as a thought. To remove the whole modern Israel concept I think you need to go to about WW1 times, maybe some earlier.

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OkRaspberry1035@reddit

I found information that Balfour issued his declaration because Russia became ruled by Jews or at least he believed so and he wanted Russia to stay in WW1.

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XO1GrootMeester@reddit

Nah, they keep themselves plenty busy

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Suitable-Ad8983@reddit

Islam

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Rich-Adhesiveness137@reddit

Disperse Palestinians all over the Muslim countries, and turn Gaza into a 5 star resort destination.

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No_Scrubs_7897@reddit

May god punish you

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Rough_Transition1424@reddit

Root out political corruption and have competent leaders.

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tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit

Instil very strict secularism (which means all monarchy getting the boot) and dramatically increase sexual education and awareness. It would take at least 30 years for attitudes to change so it would need to be extra tough in the beginning.

I feel through intense secularism, much of the conflict going on there would subside. In fact I’m certain of it.

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xwqcz@reddit

The religious extremism is definitely not helping, in my opinion.

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Srki90@reddit

For All Balkan to states recognize Palestine and sever ties with Israel. Or at least stop arming Israel.

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AllMightAb@reddit

Complete Christianization of the people.

Out of like 60 Muslim majority country in the world there is only like 5 of them that are functioning democracies, and out of those 5 they are not functioning in there full capacity.

Islam works more as a political ideology ready to conquer and spread cultural imperalism and less like a religion aimed at saving people's souls. Its Extremism brings out nations and breads conflict. For example why are Christian Syrians and Muslim Syrians so culturally different? One of them is out murdering people and the other one is living peacefully and preaching love your enemy.

Kosovo and Albania are the only real functioning democracies of a Muslim majority countries, and that is because we are Ethnic Europeans with a Christian past and a history of secularism and religion harmony.

The only other outlier is Turkey but it's become an authotarian state with Neo-Ottoman Islamist whose main opposition is another Islamist.

Islam does not bring peace or salvation, Christ does.

Bring on the downvotes.

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perverted_sperm@reddit

Ahh yes, Christianity brings peace such as Inquisitions, 2 world wars, brutal wars in Iraq, Vietnam, Cambodia and rn in Ukraine.

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

The only thing from your list that has anything to do with Christianity is the inquisitions… wtf are you smoking?

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_MekkeliMusrik@reddit

One of them is out murdering people

wtf?

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Is our main oppositon islamist? Wow, such a deep knowledge!!

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AllMightAb@reddit

Erdogan's main rival was Gulen. I dont see your main political opposition inherting the ideology of Attaturk. Either way my point still stands, Turkey has become a Authotarian state being run Neo-Ottoman Islamist, your country is known for coup attempts to seize the government, which happens every couple of decades.

You really arent the beacon of democracy, quality of life and human rights are you?

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DranzerKNC@reddit

You are a living example of why complete ignorants being less harmful to humanity than to half educated.

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SnooPoems4127@reddit

Hmm, Gulen never participated in elections, he didnt even live in Turkey while erdogan is in power how can he be the main rival of erdogan?

the thing is main opposition party is CHP and like 2 million light years away from bein islamist.

I do not think turkey is democracy but why are you asking me about human rights or if we are beacon of democracy just because of i said main opposition isnt islamist?

it would be equally irrelevant if, while discussing the political leanings of your main opposition, I suddenly mentioned that a lot of girls are being trafficked to Italy and forced to work as prostitutes, or that you are incapable of even running a sewage system there...

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KhanTheGray@reddit

If you think west is “oh so democratic” than you have no idea about Operation Gladio that ran from NATO headquarters from 1947 to 1990s and who knows it’s probably still ongoing.

Every single European country had a shadow organization overseeing its elections making sure it doesn’t lean too far left, when it did, people died.

The bombings that shook Italy from 80s to 90s were all internal and years later top soldiers and Police went to jail over it. They killed Italian Prime Minister when he refused to obey US President and openly told him he was gonna go to newspapers and speak to nation.

Greece had a military coup to keep the country obedient to NATO.

In Scandinavia union leaders were gunned down in broad daylight.

In France there was an assassination attempt at De Gaul with full knowledge of Americans who were aware if the actions of clandestine legion from Algeria, they did nothing to stop it.

If you think west has free will or democracy, you are dreaming.

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

Unpopular opinion (you can be outraged or against, just my mind) : dispersing Palestinians in other countries, with huge reparation founds given by Israel for their relocation. The ones who chose to stay in Israel with a status like those of the Israeli Arab citizens (full rights) should stay. There are so many other issues in the Middle East but this one is crucial.

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perverted_sperm@reddit

How can you call for ethnically cleansing of an entire population. If Russia came knocking at your door would u accept to be "relocated" in different countries. This is such a naive and evil take

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Gooalana@reddit

Remove the choosen bully

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sjedinjenoStanje@reddit

Remove the racists...oh wait, they're the vast majority of the Middle East.

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Thalassophoneus@reddit

Israel. It's basically the USA's 51st state in Eurasia. It doesn't belong there.

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

It’s amazing how in the minds of propagandists Israel is both a puppet of the usa and a puppeteer.

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CalydonianBoar@reddit

It is a puppet for sure.

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

😂

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CalydonianBoar@reddit

To be fair, many NATO members act as USA puppets too

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

No matter how misinformed they are.

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CalydonianBoar@reddit

On that we agree

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Thalassophoneus@reddit

I don't know what you are venting about. I'm sure it's a puppet.

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JarJarBingChilling@reddit

ok

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elusivemoods@reddit

Change: Mandatory Fez.

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_MekkeliMusrik@reddit

yeah I think it's very cool thing that a nation to wear a hat that is unique to it (I know the fact that fez is from Morocco)

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elusivemoods@reddit

Mustafa Attatürk deprived the turks of the Fez. Truly shameful. Silver lining: You get to keep the moustache and have the ice cream men being cute.

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_MekkeliMusrik@reddit

I don't really mind putting a fedora on either but reddit / discord mods stole that privilege from us gif

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elusivemoods@reddit

I like puttig on the fez when the mood is right. 🤌🔥

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CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit

Recognize Palestine and stop supplying Israel with arms.

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Vaseline13@reddit

I would destroy both Israel and Palestine and open the world's largest casino and unite everyone through Gambling. I would also make Gambling a human right and make it legal for all ages. It will have weed and ethically sourced hookers too. Finally Peace in the Middle East.

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Ok-Cartographer-4385@reddit

The house always wins

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VARYOS1337@reddit

The religion of "peace" where everyone say's it brings peace and happiness in their life but their action in real-life show otherwise.
There was a recent post about a 13y old girl forced married to a 29y and his reply was " was love at first sight" meanwhile in the video the girl is having a river of tears and you can see the pain in her expression.

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