On Hope and Evil
Posted by rosalui@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 20 comments
One of the arguments that always comes 'round in Xena fandom is the question of whether Hope was truly evil and whether or not Gabrielle was right to protect her.
I thought I'd compile quotes from a few interviews with the writers, producers, and actors at the time to shed light on their intent when making the episode.
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Interview with Rob Tapert: "Hope was the spawn of Dahak and Evil to the core. Only Gabrielle could not see that. Xena could or certainly deduced It . . . as a hero she had to act."
Interview with Chris Manheim: "I wanted you to be able to believe that Gabrielle would want to have feelings for this evil Hope character and that she could be fooled by her. Even when Gabrielle knows she’s evil, she could be swayed."
Interview with Renee O'Connor: "Gabrielle has brought all this upon herself by not killing this evil child to begin with, right? It was her lack of judgment. Gabrielle basically was at fault." And: "My whole approach to Gabrielle needing to kill Hope is that she finally learned that this was an evil entity. [....] It was Gabrielle’s fault that Hope had killed Solan, so I think she took that onboard and that became her burden. And obviously there’s remorse there, but I think it was a pragmatic approach to ridding the world of an evil that Gabrielle had brought to life. [....] I think what was more important to her was the fact that… her friend had suffered so tragically because of Gabrielle’s mistake."
Interview with RJ Stewart: "In an earlier draft, I had written this really persuasive argument by Gabrielle why Xena shouldn’t kill this baby. Gabrielle explained that just because the child killed somebody, it’s half god and doesn’t know its own strength. I couldn’t get into that. We had to buy Xena’s conviction totally. That Xena knew this baby was evil." And: "When Xena tells Gabrielle to kill her child, it is a torturous point—for Xena. [....] [But that] heroism [was] a part of Xena. She knew she was hurting Gabrielle, she knew [that] what she was asking Gabrielle to do was almost impossible. But she knew it had to be done – that ultimately Gabrielle would not be happy with the consequences of not killing that child, as we learn in the season was very true. Let’s face it: that child was evil and had Gabrielle destroyed that child when she was supposed to, the great pain and agony [that] those two characters went through that season would not have happened."
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
This all jives for me. That’s what makes Gabrielle’s decision to send Hope to the caves where Solan was waiting so baffling.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I think Gabrielle still wanted to believe her daughter was innocent and that Callisto, who you have to remember she really, really hates, was behind everything.
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
Yes, I think so, too. But that was foolish and frankly selfish. Even if she wanted to believe that, she had strong evidence that Hope had murdered as a baby. Why risk her best friend’s son’s life? I was always surprised that Xena forgave this. When I watched the show during the original run, I actually thought they might be writing the character off!
PirateJen78@reddit
I never got over this. I like Gabrielle, but not as much as others because she was responsible for Solan's death. I don't have kids, but I can imagine the pain Xena was in and I still do not understand how she could ever forgive Gabrielle to the point that they would become closer than they were before Solan's death.
Years ago, I had a really close best friend who came to stay with us for a few months. None of us (including my husband) are children people -- we are pet people. My friend had this annoying little dog, but she loved him so much and she needed a place to stay, so we put up with him. He bit my husband and drew blood, and while I didn't like that, it's a dog, not an evil creature, so I figured he was just adjusting.
Months passed and my cats were basically living upstairs because they hated that dog. We suggested to this friend that MAYBE she should start LOOKING for a potential place to move. LOOKING, not MOVING yet. I wanted to stress that there was no hurry because we certainly didn't want her to feel like she had to live in her car or something, but it had been almost a year and our place was kind of cramped. She took it personally, as if I wanted her out. In the end, I told her I had to put my husband and pets first, and though I liked her dog and knew that he meant the world to her, things needed to change.
When I re-watch these episodes of Xena, I'm reminded of the destruction of my own relationship with my once best friend. We have barely spoken since and are not friends anymore. I highly doubt a trip to Illusia would magically repair our friendship. It's just not realistic when one person puts his/her needs above another's and results in pain. But I guess because it's a TV show, it worked for Xena and Gabby. I certainly wouldn't have forgiven Gabby. Ever.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Perhaps the difference is that she was just a friend and yes I know you can love friends, however, the love you feel for a partner is deeper and you put up with a lot more than you would with friends. You may see Xena and Gabrielle as just friends, but others believe their love for each other was much deeper than that.
In the end it gets back to the whole Rift thing - which created huge divisions within the Xenaverse fan base at the time as to who was really to blame for it. Was it Xena's fault for taking Gabrielle to Britannia and then ignoring her to pursue her vengeance against Caesar, which led to Gabrielle, who was still quite young and fairly innocent and still searching for meaning in her life, being taken in by Krafstar and, consequently, raped by Dahak, which in turn led to the birth of Hope?
Or was Gabrielle to blame because she didn't kill her baby, when Xena told her too, and that baby grew up and killed Solan later?
Or is it the Fates fault because all this had been destined for them? I mean think about it, Hope was born in Britannia and you would assume put into a basket in Britannia to be found by someone else who raised her. How did she get back to Greece and just *happen* to be in the centaur village at the right time?
You could even blame Callisto, because Callisto must have told Hope who Solan was - and she probably only knew that because she was a goddess. So let's drill that down even further. Xena sought an immortal to fight Velaska and she thought of Callisto, who in turn used the ambrosia to become a goddess which gave her the knowledge about Solan.
And that would mean that Hercules was actually to blame because he's the one who trapped Callisto with the golden apples which made her immortal. But let's go back even further - if Xena's army hadn't destroyed Callisto's vilage, Callisto would never have sought vengeance on Xena in the first place.
However, if Cortese hadn't raided Xena's village years before, and if Cyrene hadn't rejected Xena as a result of blaming her for getting Lyceus killed, then Xena wouldn't have become a warlord in the first place. So perhaps the Rift was really Cyrene's fault in the end, or Cortese's.
By the way, I'm guessing your friend and her dog found another place okay? Without knowing the circumstances of your friend's life, it seems to me that she was at fault because, although you offered her temporary respite, not wanting her to be homeless, she took advantage of that and over-stayed her welcome. I had a similar situation, with the person in question not even bothering to look for anywhere else for her and her three kids (plus another on the way) to live - she had no plans to live with the father of one of those kids (and the one she was pregnant with) because it would mean she'd lose her social security benefits.
PirateJen78@reddit
Tbh, no, we were not lesbian lovers, but we were REALLY close and told each other everything. Kind of like sisters or maybe lovers without the romance. I was closer to her than my own husband.
Xena and Gabrielle were not that close in season 2. Not yet. Maybe if it would have happened later. And to that point, if my husband did something that resulted in the death of a loved one, he would be out the door, so I still stand by my argument.
And Xena being Xena, I think, realistically, she would have never forgiven Gabrielle. Her sudden forgiveness just plays into the whole Christian undertone of the entire show. I almost made a similar mistake in my book series -- a series in which the main character is based on my ex-best friend. I was going to have a character kill another, but then realized that there would be no coming back from that and readers would have a hard time seeing the character as anything other than a killer. It's the same idea: if one character's decisions result in another's death, that character is tainted with that death. Perhaps the writers didn't think we cared for Solan at all, but he's Xena's son, so he gains acceptance by association.
You are branching too far. If you want to unravel everything, then we can blame the creation of the universe. Each individual made their own decisions, including Gabrielle's decision to lie to Xena and refuse to see Hope for what she was: the daughter of Dahak.
Which, btw, I assumed Hope knew about Solan because Dahak told her. How would Callisto know at that point? And I would assume she ended up there because of Dahak, not the fates.
Yes, my ex-best friend went back home, where she actually owned a house. I think she eventually kicked her ex-boyfriend out of her house so she could live there. I did message her when her dog passed because I knew he meant the world to her, but that is the extent of our contact over the past 7 years.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
It was Season 3 when this all happened and they'd already been through Season 2's The Quest (where Gabrielle realised that she loved Xena and told Iolaus) and Xena had 'kissed' her in that mystical dream whatever.
I'm not saying blaming Cortese for everything is correct (I was being cynical when I wrote it, but cynicism doesn't come across well in text messages, nor does sarcasm) - however, I have a tendency to look at someone's past and how it might have affected them. Unless you walk in someone else's shoes, you really don't know how they will react to a particular event. And who are we to judge who was wrong or right? I don't recall taking anyone's side at the time of the debate. I acknowledge that Gabrielle's lie was worse than Xena's because it had more far reaching implications, but they both lied, which was a betrayal of trust.
Like you, I don't think I could ever forgive anyone who had been responsible for the death of someone I loved. Perhaps Xena did because she was still feeling guilty about the thousands of people she slaughtered (by choice) that she was trying to find redemption for, hoping their loved ones would somehow forgive her. I'm sure Gabrielle didn't plan for her daughter to kill people. Another Redditor suggested it was all due to Karma.
It raises one final question - if you had a baby and you were told that baby was evil and to kill it, could you? I couldn't.
PirateJen78@reddit
Evil? Maybe, but I definitely would not put others in danger the way Gabrielle did. But I also really dislike babies anyway, so I am already biased.
If it was a situation like Gabrielle's, yes, I most likely would. At the very least, I would not protect her after she had killed people, and I would not refuse to acknowledge that her conception and birth were supernatural, therefore already creating suspicion.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Really? Writing Gabrielle off? Interesting. Then you might have thought her 'death' in Sacrifice 2 was for real - no more Gabrielle. You know I don't think it would have worked, with Xena going off on her own. I know the series was supposed to focus on Xena's search for redemption, but from that very first episode, where Xena, who it seemed was intent on killing herself, jumps in to rescue Gabrielle, the relationship or friendship or whatever you want to call it, was really important to Xena's search. And although Xena does change throughout the series, Gabrielle changes a lot more, which added another dimension to the episodes.
Tricky_Direction_897@reddit
Yes I did at the time. I was also like, 11 🤷🏻♀️And agreed, def wouldn’t have worked as well with Xena on her own!
Own-Ambassador-3537@reddit
Gabrielle was in DEEP denial over what Hope was at that moment!
IseQween@reddit
One of my regrets about XWP is how it dealt with X&G's pregnancies. Tapert liked to talk about Xena as akin to any male hero, then turned her biggest major distinction -- the ability to bear children -- into a tragedy every time. Same with Gabrielle. It set up -- and somewhat skirted -- impossible situations for the mothers. Of course Gabrielle protected Hope and wanted to believe the best, same as Xena did with Livia.
Stewart says killing baby Hope "had to be done." Though we see Xena seemingly ready to do it, we'll never know if she could. The godly stuff didn't make it any better for me in terms of evilness determined by the impregnator or a potential saving grace. Nothing about the situation as portrayed convinced me Xena was "heroic" for demanding baby Hope be destroyed immediately, something she herself couldn't do later with her own grown, murderous daughter. So she "failed" this hero test, while Gabs "passed"?
It's like, "We need to stir things up. What can we use that's usually missing from action scenarios? Wombs! We can plant, issue anything, any way we want. It's worked in most horror films. They'll be heroes for wanting, or trying to get their best friend, to kill their children! You don't see that everyday. Yes!"
godsibi@reddit
You know... The most frustrating thing about Hope for me, is not if she's evil or not and if Gabrielle should have killed her. (I do understand why Xena wants to kill her though and why her mother would be more subjective and want to protect her). But the thing that's most frustrating, is that even if Gabrielle killed Hope as a baby, she would come back through the cocoon anyway. Dahak would pick her ashes up and demand for a ritual to restore her body anyway! 🤷♂️
Own-Ambassador-3537@reddit
Xena killing Hope single-handedly destroys her reform arc, breaks up her and Gabrielle permanently( turning Gabrielle potentially bad),and further justifies Callisto saying Xena can’t change her ways. Just horrible all the way around
godsibi@reddit
You have to ask yourself... Is Hope human enough to regard killing her as inhuman or unreasonable? How is killing Hope any different than killing Mephistopheles, Indrajit or even Athena? At the end of the day, I doubt Hope even had free will as she seemed devoted to serve Dahak from the very beginning of her life!
Tbf, the fact alone that people still are morally troubled and divided on Hope and Xena's stance against her, shows how clever the writing was for that storyline.
GoblinQueenForever@reddit
I feel like the series, or at least season 3, would have been better if Hope wasn't 100% evil, at least at first. Like, yes, it was instinct to kill from the moment of birth, so she killed, and Xena was like, 'this thing is evil, it must be destroyed' completely dismissing Gabrielle's feelings or conflicts or the horrible ordeal she just endured to give birth to this baby she thought of as the only good thing to come out of her loss of innocence.
Then Gabrielle sends the baby off and everything happens the way it does in the show. Only, change it so that, as Hope grew older, she wasn't completely evil. She had urges to do bad things, sure, but she was also conflicted and questioned WHY she must do and be, bad. In the show, she has no desire to kill or harm Gabrielle. Even after she poisoned her, she was ready to forgive if it meant receiving her mothers love. And she seemed to love her own child, so I feel like the whole affair would have been deeper, more iinteresting, if she had been, at least partially, good.
What if Hope had actually been swayed by Gabrielle's words of love and became conflicted in their plans and actually was innocent in Solan's death, but still poisoned by Gabby, and became completely evil AFTER her resurrection because of her beloved mother's betrayal. A self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will. It would have been darker, but Hope was always a really interesting character to me. I wish she had had more depth, and this also would have proven that Xena wasn't 100% right, 100% percent of the time.
Agent8699@reddit
Eh. TPTB also never intended for Xena and Gabrielle to be anything more than friends.
At the end of the day, ROC’s performance in particular added way more to Hope than simply being a one dimensional “vessel” for Dahak’s evil. Maybe that was contrary to the script. Or maybe their idea for Hope evolved beyond what they had in mind for her when they wrote Gabrielle’s Hope.
I mean, they tried hard. They refilmed and edited parts of Gabrielle’s birth scene to try to make it scarier and darker. But, it didn’t sell it for me.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I agree. Renee did a great job. I do think that Hope craved the love of her mother. Not getting it (in her belief - however untrue that belief was) and seeing Gabrielle give it to others would, of course, create psychological problems of rejection in Hope. Would it have changed her at all, away from evil? No idea. Some people just crave power, and power is what Dahak offered his daughter. Did she ever think about the fact that her father raped her mother, and how that was wrong? Probably not. Rejection is rejection, despite the circumstances, so I don't think anything could have been done with Hope to change her.
About the birth - it's interesting what they tried to do - make it scarier - but when you think about it, it would have actually been even more scarier if it was a normal birth of this lovely blue-eyed blond baby, and *then* you find out she's killed someone..........at least IMO. More shock value.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Thank you so much for digging these out. That was excellent!
RotaVitae@reddit
The problem of Hope goes a lot deeper than evil. Allowing Xena to kill her baby would mean Gab no longer sees a way through her severe trauma. Much like some rape victims who become pregnant and choose to birth the child, she saw Hope as the only good light that came out of that horrible violation. Problem is, her cute baby is also a demon spawn who was also delivered against Gab's will by the hyper gestation, giving her no time to adjust to reality, and that threatened to kill her if she didn't.
Dahak needed to get his avatar into the world with the least resistance, and to do that, Gab was denied autonomy in all the worst ways a woman could be: rape, unplanned and unwanted pregnancy, and forced delivery. Gab isn't thinking rationally because her sweetness and light rose-coloured glasses are pushed to the extreme to deal with such an event. And Xena's typical cynicism, that says evil is everywhere in the world, even in the case of Hope, isn't what Gab wants to hear nor can deal with at that moment. Hope is her daughter, and she's going to raise her to be good. And if she can't raise her, she'll make sure she survives Xena, period.
I agree with Xena, but I have sympathy for Gab and I disagree with RJ. If she killed Baby Hope, Gab would never recover from Dahak, and nothing Xena could say would help. They would still go through pain and agony together, in a different way. Knowing Hope was alive out there somewhere gave Gab the only peace of mind she could accept. It was only later, when Hope was older, could speak and act for herself, and proved impossible to convert and people died, that Gab had to accept Hope would never be the shining beacon she wanted her to be. In Season 4 she calls it coming to terms with her failure at being a mother.