How will gender roles change during collapse?
Posted by TMag73@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 87 comments
Since the election in the US, I've been thinking about and having conversations about how men and women are relating. There's definitely an increase in misogynistic rhetoric meanwhile women are saying having a boyfriend or husband isn't worth the effort and stress. But as collapse unfolds, how will this change? How will women be safe? Will good men step up?
CollapseCoaching@reddit
Physical strenght will become important again, because the law won't be enforced reliably and people are gonna be more desperate.
Women don't benefit from that change.
There is a difference with the past though, and that is that women tasted some freedom now: they have money, an education, skills, guns, enough experience to be able to navigate the world outside of the house. They'll give a hard time to those who will try to take it away.
CompulsiveArguer@reddit
Nonsense. Typical delusional Reddit
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dovercliff@reddit
This thread has been locked to comment because it has turned into a cesspit of sexism and hatred against women.
It will not be unlocked.
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[removed]
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the_last_miner@reddit
Prostitution right ?
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Shoddy-Childhood-511@reddit
r/idiocracy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs4mtbTsaL4
the_last_miner@reddit
Haha handjobs at starbucks would be cool š
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isvinitye@reddit
There's a TED talk about the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) of the UN.
The speaker talks about all the wonderful progress made recently. Towards the end he admits that some categories are actually going backwards. Nothing important though. Just democracy and human rights lol.
Women will suffer enormously from climate change. They already contribute so much unpaid labor to the typical household. In certain parts of Asia and Africa, women will spend most of their day collecting freshwater and sometimes firewood.
I don't know how their lives can get any worse, and I don't wanna think about it, but there will be serious consequences for women globally, not just in developing or "third world" countries.
CompulsiveArguer@reddit
Climate change is fake.
isvinitye@reddit
So are your mum's tits. Honk honk.
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rematar@reddit
Username
BigJobsBigJobs@reddit
they already changed and resistance to that change is fueling collapse
SlowLearnerGuy@reddit
It is the change itself that is fueling collapse. The resistance is trying to prevent it. Ironically, once collapse happens the gender wars that caused it will come to an end as we revert to the old rules, because only those cultures who breed will be left standing.
berusplants@reddit
I'm morbidly keen to know your inner logic behind that first sentence.
Saltymeetloaf@reddit
r/UsernameChecksOut
TotaIIyNotNaked@reddit
I get the sentiment, but jesus Christ man. They're women not some wild mythical birthing machines.
AmoremCaroFactumEst@reddit
Are you blaming global ecological collapse on womenās liberation?
GabbotheClown@reddit
Dude, you can barely function in this society. What are you going to do when the collapse actually happens and you're all alone?
Redkitty12@reddit
Your name fits
OpinionsInTheVoid@reddit
Iād to love to say that weāll see a blurring of gender roles and more of a focus on communal living with a celebration of queerness, polyamory and an overall rejection of the nuclear household. But then again, tradwife culture seems to be exploding soā¦..
gardening_gamer@reddit
My wife and I already have what would be considered "traditional" roles, but regularly talk about it, and just come to the conclusion that it works for us. I take the DIY, garden, firewood and generally the outside jobs, and she's fantastic at keeping us clean, fed and doing the lion's share of childcare. She's also got a great memory for all the important dates so birthday cards etc get sent on time.
Whatever dynamic people's relationships have during and post-collapse, the only thing there won't be room for is slackers. Everyone will have to pull their weight and then some. A shortage of readily available cheap energy will translate to more physical labour.
Gender be damned, it'll be the folks who don't like getting their hands dirty and breaking a sweat that will struggle.
Electrical_Print_798@reddit
The dying throes of the patriarchy will tighten its hands around women's necks until it can no longer hang on to power. If humans survive the increasing heat, both sexes will need to work together, and egalitarian relationships will arise once again.
CompulsiveArguer@reddit
Nonsense
Be7th@reddit
Well penned. Juxtapositions like yours are hardly seen nowadays.
Gloomy_Change8922@reddit
Guess what? Women can take care of themselves! Patriarchy sucks!
CompulsiveArguer@reddit
Women are delusional by nature. Which is why you say nonsensical stuff like this. You'll do what you're told or you'll end up on the street. Simple as.
GoldieRosieKitty@reddit
As if women haven't spent the last decades quietly getting their reproductive health needs met through the whisper network ....
Fruhmann@reddit
Good men will take care of their loved ones. They will only help people outside of that group if it's not consequential or costly to themself or that group.
Using the election as the framework to discuss this divide is less helpful than taking into consideration a more broader mentality associated with each side.
A conservative man thinks/feels/says, "I want a family. I want to be king of my domain. I want my strength and resilience to but what betters their lives. For that, I want to be appreciated and respected by my family."
A liberal woman thinks/feels/says, "I want independence. I want to be queen of my domain. I want my choices and my perspectives to be what betters my life. For that, I want my choices and perspectives to be respected and unchallenged by others."
In a collapse, I don't see the conservative man's mentality having to shift away, but rather become more emboldened by the increase of need for the.
But don't get me wrong, in my fantasy commune, between the male lawyer who skis and host a podcast and the female gender studies major who keeps bees and brews beer, I'm going with the latter to invite in.
With both genders, their safety will depend on their own skills and abilities, how well they're able to mesh within a community, and much more.
GoldieRosieKitty@reddit
Don't get it mixed up--- women aren't dropping all the men. Just the nasty ones.
And the ones who are prepper-focused rely heavily on mutual aid and collective groups.
Individual_Bar7021@reddit
This is correct. My partner and I are both collapse aware. He and I truly see our differing skill sets as an incredible partnership (heās an arborist, former mechanic, brilliant at building things, Iām a permaculturist with a degree in sustainable farming). He is just as focused on building a trustworthy community as I am. We regularly go to community building events and he helps me with my community projects, like when I was cleaning up childrenās gardens that I spent the summer running, he helped me haul it all to yard waste. I am constantly amazed by what a wonderful, very aware, very supportive, and very empathetic partner he is. He is great with children too! It took wading through a lot of muck and mire though and he was literally the last date I was going to go in before giving up.
BTRCguy@reddit
from 2018:
wrongfaith@reddit
You provided a good example to support the point that the commenter above you was making.
Women arenāt avoiding all men, but you will increasingly see them wisely avoiding men who are dangerous to them and to society. This is why men who go by the label āconservativeā are disproportionately noticing the effects; modern conservativism includes oppression/dehumanization of women as one of its core values.
Anyone would be wise to avoid people that use them and predators that prey on them. Obviously. Wellā¦itās not so obvious to conservatives apparently but itās obvious to anyone with pattern recognition and critical thinking capacity. These, unfortunately, are NOT core values of modern conservativism, which relies more on obedience and adherence to status quo and ātraditionā.
thedoommerchant@reddit
As a trans woman I guess Iāll just die.
abu_nawas@reddit
As a gay man, I'm already seeing a return of homophobia (and transphobia is even more glaring).
Edelman hypothesized in his book, No Future: Queer Theory and the Death Drive (2004), that politics is designed to protect reproductive futurism.
IMO a country needs a sizeable working class and a healthy supply of cannon fodder, so people who do not reproduce are the enemy.
Lyconi@reddit
I know this is a widely held perspective but I question it. It was popular on the right for a time as well, the idea of the horrors of a plummeting birth rate. I personally don't see the alarm. Probably by the end of the 2030's robotics will be ubiquitous and will have supplanted traditional labor in many industries. Cheaper, more efficient, easier to develop and reproduce at scale than the slow grind of human biological reproduction and child rearing. Cognitive labour also stands to be replaced with AI systems over the next decade as well.
In a warfare setting humans are being obsoleted by machines. Again, over the next 15 years a revolution in warfare as battle becomes increasing autonomous. The rise of these systems is a natural arms race progression, there is no reversing it; autonomous systems will be superior cognitively and physically.
I really see no structural need for more people in the long run. Actually I see inverse pressures if anything, due to the stress of climate change on food production, resource depletion and the effective obsolescence of human labour. One could argue I suppose that resource conflicts will lead to imperialism (as we are already starting to see), and that might paradoxically drive reproductive pressures for a time, but not indefinitely I think due to the rise of automation.
I think what we see right now is that anti-LGBT propaganda is positioned more as a distraction tactic while the billionaires clean out the money pot as opposed to (along with abortion) being a part of some grand cultural realignment plan in which Christian fascism becomes the new grand story of western civilisation. There's a real danger this can happen, but again I think the reasons for that would be social and cultural as opposed to structural.
Zestyclose-Ad-9420@reddit
for christofascism to be a distraction for billionaires, they need to use people who are "true believers", so its still dangerous.
SmilingAmericaAmazon@reddit
Apt username.
Hugs if you like them
Ghostwoods@reddit
... you do know that women nowadays are not wealthy Victorian victims of a lifetime of enforced physical idleness and constant brutal corsetting, right?
Physical competence is not divided along gender lines. You should be asking "How will the physically compromised be safe? Will good fit people step up?"
I'm willing to bet a lot more women will step up than men.
LilithFiles@reddit
Iāll probably get downvoted but here we go.
Right now, itās fashionable for women to be Alpha. Strong, successful intelligent women are marrying Beta Feelings forward Soy Boy. (No shade, I donāt know how else to describe feminized men.) These people are having kids that are asexual and bronies. This works in a modern society, but what happens when nature starts to take hold? Biology is destiny. Masculine men comfortable with nature will tip the scales of the power dynamic back in their favor as we slowly devolve into collapse. I say this as a woman, from a Jungian perspective, that the disrespect/distrust of rugged masculinity is fueling a lot of social collapse. Men are angry (negative feeling), women are detached intellectualizing (negative thinking). Itās all backwards and out of balance. Balance is the key.
Comeino@reddit
See this is how I see your comment: Women preferring to get married to partners they actually love and having happy self actualized children is a problem because the immigrants are having more of the less worthy kind of kids. Balanced violence will solve this
Did I get everything right? Cause I'm not sure why you would be in support of shit like this. If I can't marry a cute Femboy and live happy without society falling apart then it is welcome to collapse while we cuddle near the fire. Girl you deserve better, stop bringing politics into your bedroom and get your personalized love of your life today. Collapse of Civilization is a matter of when, not if, regardless of what you do.
LilithFiles@reddit
My perspective is Jungian, and how psychology influences biology. I think men and women need to balance their own internal masculine and feminine energy for optimal physical and psychological health, both for themselves, interpersonal relationships and the collective.
CollapseCoaching@reddit
So close!
Exactly, Jung would have said we need balance, not that men should be 100% yang and women 100% yin so to speak.
I could say a lot to express my negative view of your distorted interpretations but I think living according to those ideas is punishment enough.
I'm not even being politically correct, I would have no problem supporting your views if they were anywhere close to the truth in my mind.
LilithFiles@reddit
I literally said individualized balance. Several times.
CollapseCoaching@reddit
Maybe... But you deleted your comment lol
Eve_O@reddit
It seems pseudo-Jungian to me: like a kind of Peterson "hot take" on Jungian thought.
Jung was interested in the psychological import of alchemy. The highest goal of that is the "divine wedding" or "alchemical marriage" and this is the union of opposites.
The mistake people tend to make, and it seems to me that you also make this mistake, is to suppose that divided external representations must necessarily align to divided internal representations, but internal and external are merely another pair of opposites.
So when you talk about "men and women need[ing] to balance their own internal masculine and feminine energy" that seems on the right track. However, this does not entail "masculine men" and feminine women. What it entails are humans who are masculine and feminine in balance in terms of both their internal and external schemas/expressions.
Put differently, balancing the anima and animus in any particular in virtue of their external physicality is the overcoming of biological constraint qua the typical diamorphism of the human species for the more spiritual and psychological union of opposites in each instance of the species. So pretty much the shedding of "biology as destiny" for something more evolved: the alchemical vessel is the individual subject and the divine wedding is the process of dissolving the base biology into something more profoundly refined.
dinah-fire@reddit
Contrary to popular belief, there's nothing inherent to men subjugating women in human biology. Hunter-gather societies are often remarkably gender egalitarian: https://www.ceu.edu/article/2024-11-28/new-research-reveals-insights-gender-equality-hunter-gatherer-societies
LilithFiles@reddit
I said balance. But consult Pan and paganism
dinah-fire@reddit
I'd avoid pseudo-scientific terms like 'alpha' 'beta' and 'soy boy' and 'biology is destiny' if that isn't what you mean. They're intractably connected to the manosphere, which is absolutely about subjugating women.Ā
LilithFiles@reddit
Well, Iām sorry. I didnāt realize you were so delicate. Let me use intellectual words to soothe your ego.
Chicago1871@reddit
You are being sarcastic but knowing your audience and choosing your vernacular carefully to gain their trust and actually influence their thinking is basic rhetoric 101.
But if you were smart enough to know that, you probably wouldnāt be reading jordan peterson in your spare time.
LilithFiles@reddit
So youāre projecting onto me who you think I am? Should we be doing some shadow work?
CollapseCoaching@reddit
Got it now! You think women who do shadow work discover their feminine side. I think women who do shadow work discover their masculine side.
It's bizarre to think someone was exposed to many informations I was exposed to and they arrived to opposite conclusions.
CollapseCoaching@reddit
You are saying women shouldn't be strong. I assume it means that in your opinion women should be weak.
What do the words strong and weak mean? They are words that assume a relationship, you can't be strong or weak if you are alone. It follows that you mean that women should be weak and men should be strong. Being weak means you can't do some things the strong can do. What are relationships of power based on? Power is about what you can do.
As an aside: I hope you don't know a thing about Lilith and it just sounded cool to you, because I have memories of a dear relative talking about her and went deeper into the rabbit hole for a while to honor those memories, and she is definitely a woman in her masculine.
wrongfaith@reddit
Oof, this is an embarrassing take. When you turn 13 someday youāre gonna cringe at this. Itās one of those moments where you have an idea of how this makes you sound in your head that is opposite of how it actually does. This take is an announcement that you do not have what it takes to think critically nope heartedly (yes, like real men and women), and instead eagerly swallowed the Andrew Tate pills that seemed to offer easily digestible comfort for your bruised sense of what youāve been told is masculinity. Yikes! How embarrassing for you.
LilithFiles@reddit
Iām 43. I was married to a woman, Iām more liberal than youād guess. Iāve spent 5 years volunteering at a counseling center helping men and women, specifically women dealing with trauma. My ātakeā may be controversial to you but to mental health professionals itās not a joke.
CollapseCoaching@reddit
Don't make your personal opinion sound like a scientific opinion.
CautiousAd5382@reddit
There's no such things as 'alpha' or 'beta', there is only 'Yankee'. Seriously though, it's yank-centric pseudoscience, all of the so called 'alphas' turn out to be complete pussies that are just loud mouth attention seekers, they are usually over compensating, coz they're bald or in the closet. In a serious collapse situation, the 'alphas' are gonna be pissing in their pants and crying for mummy.
uniqueusername74@reddit
Fuck you (No shade!)
LilithFiles@reddit
Is it free or are you charging?
PennysWorthOfTea@reddit
I'd strongly suggest you actually learn about a subject before trying to express an opinion about the subject. Seriously, someone could teach a course on pseudoscience & fallacies based on just your comment.
LilithFiles@reddit
Well? Iām waiting? Arenāt you someone? Or are you just offended and emotionally reactive?
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No-Garden8616@reddit
In more modern terms, it can be called "behavioral overshoot".
Severe_Eggplant_7747@reddit
Handmaidās Tale
abu_nawas@reddit
I really like the show, which the author contributed to. We got to see that Gilead wasn't the end all, be all. Outside of Gilead there are modern wastelands run by anarchists.
ToBeFaaaiiiirrrrr@reddit
At least Gilead is impossible for at least four days... or three. :/
drquackinducks@reddit
They will finally be equal and indistinguishable from one another, because we'll all be fucked. But as far as class is considered collapse unfortunately will be unequally distributed at first. I don't think it's just up to good men to step up. It's up to good people. The collapse is a collapse war, not a culture war.
Flimsy_Island_9812@reddit
That's funny. All of sudden, girls don't like the bad boys...
As the father of a daughter, this worries me too. How were the female pows in the Vietnam War treated? Probably something like that.
GoldieRosieKitty@reddit
Women in that era in Vietnam didn't have access to guns.
Flimsy_Island_9812@reddit
Post collapse, few will still have ammunition.
makeitmorenordicnoir@reddit
We have knives and knowledge. Step the F*ck back.
Flimsy_Island_9812@reddit
I'm sure that's going to be enough...
tje210@reddit
And even then... Guns only go so far.
See_You_Space_Coyote@reddit
Honestly, I don't think they will because if/when things get bad enough, all anyone will care about is finding out where their next meal is coming from, people won't have time or energy to worry about anything else.
Scrotis42069@reddit
Gay sexks become big popular šš¬šāļøāļø
thatguyad@reddit
We're all just people FFS.
BlackPrinceofAltava@reddit
Things will regress further.
No-Garden8616@reddit
All collapses are different. But in the one i observed was an outbreak of prostitution, rape and general intergender violence as conventional relations were no longer enforced and broke down.