Failed my commercial oral today.

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mhammaker@reddit

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean you failed the aerodynamics of climbs and turns? Studying for my commercial now

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eell55@reddit (OP)

I didn’t know how they turned. All I said was when they turn the ailerons go opposite direction and mentioned horizontal and vertical component of lift, he wanted more

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grumpycfi@reddit

Just to round this out, was the DPE looking for a description of HCL and VCL or something else?

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Appropriate-Front809@reddit

Don’t overthink HCL and VCL. The crucial thing to know is that the resultant force increases load factor (weight) which is why you need increased AoA and power to maintain altitude and speed.

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Novel-Leg8534@reddit

It’s the opposite… back pressure (increase aoa) to maintain altitude is what causes the increase in load factor.

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eell55@reddit (OP)

I talked about how HCL and VCL and how one aileron creates more drag than the other and he wanted more. I had absolutely zero idea what else to say

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eell55@reddit (OP)

Then started grilling me calling this private pilot stuff and how it’s very basic aerodynamics

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Virtual-Amphibian388@reddit

Only a ppl, feel like this all I can say if I was asked this and maybe just how one wings lift got reduced and the other lift gained. So what is the expected correct way to answer this?

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Solid-Permission-770@reddit

That’s good for PPL. the whole point of commercial is to take your PPL knowledge up to another level (a professional standard)

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Logical_Check2@reddit

So he failed you and didn't even tell you what he was looking to hear?

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saml01@reddit

OH! I know. He wanted to hear pulling back on the yoke makes the houses smaller and pushing on it makes the houses bigger.

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TurbulentSir7@reddit

Yeah I’m also curious if OP knows exactly what the DPE was fishing for. In my experience they usually explain it or say what they wanted.

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Awe man, you may have gotten by just by saying that in a climb you have excess thrust which eventually evens out with your drag and weight to put you in a constant state climb. Turns is just that you trade off some of your vertical component of lift for horizontal component of lift. I would also know what the ball looks like in skidding and slipping turns and which has more horizontal lift and centrifugal force.

Know these very very well going into your re test. Get the commercial oral exam guide and know that cover to cover. If you don’t know it without looking up an answer, don’t go to the test. You can’t afford another fail, especially on the same cert.

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Novel-Leg8534@reddit

Nice. Also explain why adverse yaw

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fullpower440@reddit

To give an appropiate answer, i would simple refer to bernoullis principle "Air moving over the curved upper surface of the wing will travel faster and thus produce less pressure than the slower air moving across the flatter underside of the wing"

High pressure always flows toward the low one = on a wing this is what creates lift.

Now think that pressure differences over Your plane when climbing (on the elevator) and when banking (on the alerons), also think the ruder is another wing from a side where this pressures acts.

You want to know as well that as You bank the load factor increase So more lift Will be needed (grater AOA) to counteract and fly the plane in equilibrium, then thrust is there to help that air molecules flowing over the wings or the airplane Surfaces.

SO in shorts, alerons, elevator and ruder are like wings from different perspectives.

Good day!

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thomasdmr@reddit

Keep going, I failed my Commercial twice and my CJ oral, I got a job in a part 135 company and now expecting a couple a couple of interviews in bigger part 135 and 121 airline, if they ask me about it (and they will) I’ll just be honest and tell them the truth about what what happen, the only thing that you need to understand about failure if working and studying harder.

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Solid-Permission-770@reddit

CJ oral as in your type rating?

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TrinoWest@reddit

I failed my private oral, instrument flight, and commercial oral 😎 don’t worry you’ll get a job before i do

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ElectricLifestyle@reddit

Literally same but I’m at the airlines now. What changed the game around for me was forming a study group and working with them. From private to CFI’s in the group we all worked together and more importantly started trying to teach the topics to each other while CFI’s critiqued our teaching.

The best advice I could give you is try and start teaching early since you want to become a CFI anyways you get ahead of the game. Good luck keep working hard.

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PutOptions@reddit

Really good advice. I recall my Dad telling me once "If you are struggling to explain it to me in simple terms, you simply don't understand the subject."

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ElectricLifestyle@reddit

I think I bastardized Albert Einstein saying “ if you can’t explain it simply, you simply don’t understand it” I would tell my students that all the time.

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OneSea3243@reddit

Are you interested in getting MEI on top of CFI/II?

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eell55@reddit (OP)

I am now

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Glooves@reddit

Good answer 😂

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PullDoNotRotate@reddit

It is indeed; the way you wash the 'funk' of failures off is by passing more rides than you've failed.

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csapidus@reddit

Well said… it took me a couple rides to get over a failure. Wish I could’ve told my old self that it’s the feeling is temporary!

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mhammaker@reddit

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean you failed the aerodynamics of climbs and turns? Studying for my commercial now

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Rexrollo150@reddit

For climbs:

How do we initiate a climb? How are lift and weight balanced during the initiation of a climb and during a steady climb? Be able to describe Vy and Vx in terms of excess power and excess thrust.

For turns:

How does the angle of attack of each airfoil (left and right wing) change? How does this cause adverse yaw and how do we compensate? Be able to describe slips and skids and how rudder is used in a turn. Be able to describe rate of turn, radius of turn, and angle of bank relationship. Think along those lines…

You should be okay if you can riff on these topics intelligently.

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mhammaker@reddit

At the risk of turning this into a "stump the chump" type threads, i'll throw my answer out there for critique:

Climbs:
We initiate a climb by pulling back on the yoke, which decreases the angle of attack on the stabilator (or horizontal stabilizer for the peons not blessed with flying the glorious Cherokee). This creates a downward force on the tail, which rotates the plane along the lateral axis and raises the nose. During a steady climb, lift and weight are in equilibrium, you are using excess thrust from the engine to climb since the nose is raised. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Vx/Vy as it relates to aerodynamics, apart from the standard "Vy gains altitude in the fastest time, and Vx gains altitude in the shortest distance" PPL answer.

Turns:
When you rotate the yoke to turn, the aileron increases the angle of attack on the outside wing, and decrease it on the inside wing. This means the outside wing is creating more lift than the inside. This rotates the plane along the longitudinal axis to start a turn, by using some of the lift in the horizontal direction (which is why some back pressure on the yoke and/or more power is required to maintain altitude and airspeed in a turn). Adverse yaw is created by the outside wing creating more lift, and thus more induced drag, which causes a yaw in the opposite direction of the turn. This would be a skid, where the nose and direction of travel are not aligned. It can be dangerous as it can lead to a spin. We compensate by using the rudder to align the nose with the direction of travel using the "ball" (aka being coordinated). This is getting long so i'll wrap up with radius. For the same bank angle, radius and rate of turn increases with airspeed, and vice versa.

Hopefully this is the right ballpark, had to take 6 months off flying when my wife and I had a kid, and am just getting back into it this very week haha, so this is a good exercise for me.

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saml01@reddit

Jesus, if this is the requirement for commercial oral i might have to practice these answers out loud in a mirror.

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Rexrollo150@reddit

Pretty solid answer, good job. How exactly does creating more lift cause more induced drag? You have the relationship correct but you waved your hand over describing the exact mechanism.

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mhammaker@reddit

I'd have to look up a better answer than this: but I know induced drag is a byproduct of lift, and results from the high pressure below the wing meeting the low pressure above the wing at the ends of the wings. That's why airliners typically have winglets, because it helps reduced induced drag, which saves on fuel.

As it relates to adverse yaw, that extra lift on the outside wing causes more induced drag, which means there's a difference in the amount of drag from one wing to the other, which causes the outside wing to want to "trail" (can't think of a better word at the moment) behind the other, aka adverse yaw.

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Effective-Scratch673@reddit

Yaw in the opposite direction of the turn is a slip, not a skid

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mhammaker@reddit

You're right, I mixed them up.

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FarNefariousness4371@reddit

That’s a lot of words for the DPE to expand on!

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mhammaker@reddit

Yeah but you also have to give a good answer, especially on a commercial vs ppl checkride. Can't just say "Airplane turns because wings go sideways. Next question."

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PullDoNotRotate@reddit

ahem excess thrust makes airplanes climb

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BandicootNo4431@reddit

I'd say the advice given to everyone else hasn't changed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1g3h3yb/realistically_how_bad_are_checkride_failures_on/

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1he6mx3/3_checkride_failures_how_bad_is_it/

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/11t3bj4/how_many_checkride_failures_are_ok_to_go_to/

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/y40spb/do_i_have_too_many_fails/

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/14b6pie/two_failed_checkride/

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VileInventor@reddit

well first off why couldn’t you describe those aerodynamics? you know the principles of straight and level flight, just visualize it in your head.

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FarNefariousness4371@reddit

Sounds like the DPE was looking for an oddly specific buzzword

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VileInventor@reddit

maybe not really sure why people are downvoting you can google the aerodynamics of an aircraft including its laminar flow vs it’s stall point and then imagine everything in between fairly easy. we learn spins are a stall with one wing more stalled and we learn that turns one wing is going faster producing more lift which is what causes over bank tendencies. with all that imagining climbs and turns is simple.

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ZinkusPinkus@reddit

Nah, don’t fail anymore you’ll be alright. For American Airlines Regionals if that’s the route you’re taking I can’t speak for others. 4 failures is where they will not consider an application. That is as of last month. CFI checkride failure will not count until the second unsat. If you come across more failures you’ll need to look into a 135 operation and get a good year of flying in your logbook to show a good clean record before you’re probably considered for 121. Goodluck

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

I couldn’t describe the aerodynamics associated with climbs and turns. My fault yes. Just bummed out. I also failed my instrument on an ils because it had a full scale.

So now I have 2 fails. Am I cooked or what? Just looking for motivation.

Please downvote this comment until it collapses.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.

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holein3@reddit

couldn’t describe the aerodynamics associated with climbs and turns

What’s the answer here - describing how the ailerons and elevator operate to turn and climb? Seems like a vague question.

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eell55@reddit (OP)

Should I join the army as a warrant officer pilot?? I have a bachelors degree. I wanna be a pilot. It kills me to have these fails because I do try. But it’s not good enough, obviously

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Skynet_lives@reddit

Cooked no, hurdle to overcome yes.

Don’t fail anymore, work hard, definitely get MEI and maybe ASES if you can afford it. You want training passes and some distance from the failures when you start applying.

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MyPilotInterview@reddit

Not cooked - keep working hard!!