FFDO is dumb as hell. Pilots shouldn’t have guns.
Posted by Frog_Prophet@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 148 comments
I'm supremely confident that if a pilot ever has to use their gun like they expect to, a bystander (probably the other pilot) is going to end up injured or dead. The notion that these good ol boys with their Glocks are gonna stop a 9/11 attack and not hurt anyone by accident is the dumbest fantasy I've ever heard of.
It's nothing more than security theater, and in all likelihood, he's gonna get his gun taken by the attacker. So thanks for bringing a gun on the plane!!
Young pilots, just don't ever do the FFDO programs. This needs to die out.
Where does everyone else stand on this? Am I the only one that thinks this is a stupid hero fantasy that will lead to tragedy if it ever plays out?
FormulaKibbles@reddit
I can't imagine there would be any chance a potential attacker could take the gun if trying to enter through a cockpit door. Unless you are implying they take it during a restroom break?
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
If they surprise the pilot, or rush him as he opens the door.
x4457@reddit
I'd have to imagine that part of the FFDO policy is to never open the door in response to a threat. That door is a major line of defense.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Then what on earth is the point of the gun?
x4457@reddit
The theory is that the FFDO is a last-ditch line of defense should the cockpit door be breached.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
To do what? Fling bullets around in a tight airplane cabin during a scrum? How are you people having such a hard time with this?
ReserveBidder@reddit
It appears that you're the only one having a hard time with this.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
How can you make sure innocent people don’t get shot?
t0x0@reddit
Don't shoot them
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Why didn’t anyone who’s ever hit someone with a stray bullet ever think of this genius solution?
minfremi@reddit
I think it’s don’t open the door period, FFDO or not, during any sort of threat level, and IIRC if it’s threat level 3 or 4 that door stays shut until aircraft on the ground and authorities deem it’s safe to open.
FormulaKibbles@reddit
As in an unknown threat surprises him when leaving the cockpit for a break? I don't know FFDO policies but I'm pretty sure if there is a known threat on the airplane you don't leave the cockpit for this reason.
Mike__O@reddit
That's not how it works. You don't just get up and leave.
And next time you're on a flight as a passenger go try to linger by the door. It won't end well for you.
FormulaKibbles@reddit
I’m an airline pilot as well so I understand the policies of passengers not lingering by the door. I’m mostly confused as to what OP is trying to get at.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Where’d I lose you?
Mike__O@reddit
I think everyone is confused as to what OP is trying to get at, including OP.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Then what’s the point of the gun?
KCPilot17@reddit
What's the point of the gun in your combat vest when flying in combat Mr F-18 driver? For the .001% chance of you getting shot down and needing to defend yourself.
In the .001% chance someone is able to break through the door, I want my protection.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
But using a gun on the ground in enemy territory is not a dubious, untested, dangerous idea. So this is a bad comparison. Also I was told to keep the magazines in a separate sealed baggie away from the gun because one too many people fired off rounds in the ready room.
Yeah, whoever catches your strays can get fucked I guess…
KCPilot17@reddit
Lol you didn't even fly with a mag loaded? I'll buy one not in the chamber, but not even loaded? Okay...
And ya. Sorry. That's the risk. I'll take one casualty over 185.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
No. Ask any navy VFA guy you know.
You’re just proving how bad of an idea it is. What’s more, I GUARANTEE that if shit ever did go down, and a passenger was killed by a stray bullet, even if it was real shit, that would be the immediate end of the FFDO program and you know it.
FormulaKibbles@reddit
Navy pilots don’t fly with their pistol loaded in combat? I’ll have to ask the previous Navy guys in my squadron what they did because that sounds ridiculous. It’s not like a round won’t go off if one isn't in the chamber.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Not supposed to.
There are a lot of bullet holes in a lot of ready room floors. Are you starting to see how being competent enough to use a weapon in a fight is not some transferable quality?
FormulaKibbles@reddit
Bizarre. I’ll be honest with you here, I think FFDOs get better firearm training than military pilots but having one in the chamber on the boat is just dumb to begin with. Not having your sidearm loaded flying over Afghanistan seems even dumber.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Dude my firearms training was going to a range in Dam Neck to shoot paper. They assessed I can (checks notes) load a gun and fire it without hurting myself, and bingo bango, I’m allowed to fly with a pistol over Iraq and Syria.
So being better than a 15 minute target practice is not a high bar. It CERTAINLY doesn’t get them to the level of “ready for a gun fight.”
Why? What’s this scenario where I’m on the ground and I can’t put a magazine in the gun?
FormulaKibbles@reddit
You can't imagine a scenario where you somehow lose your magazines in the ejection? What about if you break your other arm/hand? I think the better question is why Air Force pilots are somehow trusted to fly with loaded sidearms still but Navy can't. Aka someone in Navy command overreacted. I can't imagine a Vietnam era pilot would agree to fly over the jungle with an unloaded sidearm.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
I could lose the gun in an ejection.
What of it. Flesh this out more. What use is this gun to me in this situation?
Because you guys like walking around FOBs with guns so you feel safer (even though nobody has ever successfully used a side arm to fend off a Taliban attack). It’s really that trivial. You guys don’t like the idea of a base attack where you don’t have a weapon in your hand, even if that weapon isn’t gonna do you one lick of good.
Vietnam pilots couldn’t imagine not flying directly into flack so they are not the best judge of safety.
FormulaKibbles@reddit
Dude, you have lost the plot here. Anyone can cock a pistol with one hand. Loading it isn't as easy. You must not use them often. If you lost it in the ejection then it's a moot point anyways. I didn't know the massive Bagram AFB was considered a FOB. How about when we flew out of say Kuwait or UAE with loaded sidearms? Those are some dangerous FOBs who could be hit by Taliban attack at any moment! As for the Vietnam guys... you don't respect your predecessors' history enough. You've got enough outlandish comments to fill an entire day of /r/flying nonsense.
KCPilot17@reddit
What does that have to do with FFDO? That's anyone, and why there are procedures for my piss break.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
…You just asked me where an attacker could get a change to attack the pilot.
Oh yeah, the food cart. The impenetrable barrier.
Av8tr1@reddit
Don’t forget the 72 lbs 58 year old senior mamma!
Av8tr1@reddit
Thats not the way it works. Firearm stays on the flight deck when going to the lav.
trvsmrtn@reddit
I feel like the OP doesn’t truly understand how the FFDO program works. It’s not about going “yippee ki yay mother fuckers” and having a shootout with terrorists in the middle aisle of the plane.
It’s about defending the flight deck, period. If someone becomes an actual threat to the security of the flight deck, the FFDO assumes a defensive posture, weapon at the ready, prepared to shoot anyone who breaches the door. If there is no threat, that weapon should never be drawn.
How likely is it that someone could bypass security? Well the dumbass OP has already bragged how he bypasses security by going through the company lot. Gee, how likely is it that a real threat couldn’t figure that out?
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
I never claimed it was. I’m saying it’s impossible no matter the scenario to ensure bystander safety with this plan. Innocent people are GOING to die if this is ever used.
And kills a couple passengers.
If it’s so useful then why does no other country do it? Why has the US not fought to let international flights do it? Why is there no pressure from airlines or the FAA to get pilots to do it? Why is it just “hey anyone who flies domestic flights and is interested, give us a shout”? That doesn’t scream “linchpin of safety.” That screams “security theater.”
Why can’t the flight deck be protected with a taser, or a beanbag gun? Why a full-up firearm? Because “fraydum and gunz and murica” is what this is really about.
trvsmrtn@reddit
If someone breaches the cockpit door, why the fuck would I want to try to tase them? That person isn’t breaching the door to say hi, they’re breaching that door with the intent of killing every person on the plane. I’m not interested in trying to subdue them or incapacitate them.
Your profile says ATP 320, so I’m going to assume that you’ve stood in the doorway of the flight deck of an A320. We do our requal twice a year and have to demonstrate proficiency with the firearm. If I’m in a defensive position with my weapon drawn, and someone breaches that door, I am aiming center mass and there’s not much room for me to miss and inadvertently shoot a passenger. That’s not saying that it wouldn’t happen, but it’s better than almost any alternative.
And jackasses on social media bragging that there is a way to bypass airport security and operate a commercial airliner are the reason that the threat continues to exist.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
…So you don’t accidentally kill any innocent people in the back…
Because you don’t care if you kill anyone else sitting back there. You’re making my original point. 👏👏👏
That’s bullshit and you know it. You’re pulling that out of your butt.
No, it’s not. It’s absolutely not better than using any number of less than lethal methods to subdue the attacker.
What are you even talking about?
trvsmrtn@reddit
bragging that there is a way to bypass airport security and operate a commercial airliner are the reason that the threat continues to exist.
What are you even talking about?
You literally replied to someone else
“I don’t do KCM, I bypass security through the company lot”
You are a threat. People like you are a serious threat.
As far as your other idiotic comments, take a chair, put it 3 feet in front of a door. Have someone face the back of the chair, holding a gun in a 2 handed close ready position. Now you go stand in the doorway facing them. Do you think they can shoot you from that position and hit anything in the room behind you on accident? If you don’t think you can do it, then don’t volunteer, it’s a simple as that. Jackass
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
How is that information of any use to a nefarious actor? Besides, I don’t bypass any and all security. I just bypass the main security where people use KCM. That is the context of that quote. They have security check points in the employee lot. There is literally no way to get in the airport while going through no security.
And do what? Unless they’re a pilot at this airline (in which case they would automatically know all of this) what can they do with this information? NOTHING. You didn’t flesh this idea out at all.
If you ever actually tried this, you’d see how easy it is to hit stuff behind the target. You just pulled a thing out of your ass and are pretending it’s some nail in the coffin for the debate. Only in your cripplingly biased mind.
trvsmrtn@reddit
Sure, dumbass, like I said, if it’s the base I was at, and still have friends at, there’s no actual security in the lot. All it takes is someone to steal your badge and swipe. And if it’s the airline I’m thinking of, I was there until a year ago, so I’ve already got my buddies working on figuring out who you are. They were just as surprised as I was that someone would so blatantly brag about bypassing airport security.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
JFC, why would you say that on social media? You should delete this.
And my face? And my car with my parking pass?
Are they going to come after you, too for saying that there’s no actual security in the company lot?
trvsmrtn@reddit
No, they won’t, because I’m not the threat. I no longer have access, and I don’t work there. I’m not saying they will come after you, but you can say bye bye to that SIDA badge.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Only one of us made a point to say that “there is no security in the employee lot.”
trvsmrtn@reddit
Doesn’t help your case. I’ve been smart enough not to mention any base or airline. But like I said, the information is specific enough for any airline pilot in the country to figure out. I’m pretty sure someone else commented that they knew where you worked when you first mentioned it.
I’m honestly surprised you haven’t deleted this post yet.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
You have yet to explain any actual problem with simply saying “I don’t go through the employee lot.” Point to me where that leads to some repercussion. You can’t point to any actual security threat. The fact that employees enter through an employee lot is not some secret. Not at all.
trvsmrtn@reddit
If you really believe that it’s not a threat to announce to everyone that you can just park, swipe a card at the turnstile, and walk straight to your airplane, then by all means, don’t delete your idiotic post. No danger here!
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
For what? You’re just flailing now.
Shinsf@reddit
Here's the deal FFDO's are not protecting the passengers they are protecting the aircraft. If you shoot someone in row 3 that really fucking sucks. But not nearly as much as another plane hitting a building.
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
Stop making sense
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
You’re clueless if you think that the FFDO program would not be immediately shut down if a bystander was killed by a pilot.
Ok_Truck_5092@reddit
I didn’t say it wouldn’t
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Then you understand how stupid it is.
NuttPunch@reddit
I think you’re stupid. How’s that sound?
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
It sounds like you got absolutely nothing, but you’re too butthurt to just move on.
Why are you so upset about the thought of the FFDO program going away? You feel like you’d be in danger on every flight? Or are you just so emotionally attached to guns that your ego can’t handle a gun no longer being somewhere where it was?
You guys are so incredibly sensitive. And I knew this was gonna happen when I made this post.
NuttPunch@reddit
I’m mean you’re the one making an entire post getting butthurt about the FFDO program. No I don’t feel in danger and I’m not emotionally attached to tools like firearms. You’re the one having an emotional reaction. That’s why I think an FFDO hit on your wife or something because you’re having a huge reaction over nothing.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
You’re just demonstrating how stupid of an idea it is
Shinsf@reddit
Explain why you think it's better to lose an entire aircraft.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Where are you getting this nothing that bystanders have to be shot in order to save the aircraft? When has an airplane ever successfully been defended with a pilot’s gun?
You’re just pointing to a stupid Rambo fantasy.
Shinsf@reddit
I never said they HAVE to be shot only again for the sake of the aircraft if someone managed to break into the flight deck, having something is better than nothing, especially when they would be behind you. Already standing up. With a crash axe not far from them.
By your logic we shouldn't have air marshals, or security at all. You probably say shit like "the hijackers took the aircraft with box cutters".
Your logic of "when has it happened" whataboutism. By the same reasoning I could say shit like when has a pilot ever had their gun stolen, or shot a passenger.
Honestly you sound like something who got turned away from a job involving a firearm because you yourself had a Rambo fantasy.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
With respect to “how stupid is this to use on a plane” a gun is much closer to a grenade than it is to, say a taser. And it’s totally unproven, yet you clowns are incensed by the idea of getting rid of them.
For starters there marshals are professional law-enforcement. And preparing for that kind of scenario is their actual everyday job…. But second, it’d be very easy to argue that an air Marshall shouldn’t have a gun either, and instead should have some other method of defense like a taser.
That’s not whataboutism… first off, my argument isnt “when has it happened” as if the mere lack of attacks is the reason to stop worrying about attacks. But I pointed the fact that it’s never been utilized, that is to shoot down the notion that it’s obviously helpful. It’s never been demonstrated to work so you can’t say that it works.
So calling that whataboutism would be like if you tried to claim that your lucky socks are the reason you’ve never gotten in a car accident, and then accusing me of whataboutism when I said they’re unrelated.
Spare me the lame BS. I carried a Mk25 over Iraq and Syria.
p50one@reddit
I know many people have the opinion that pilots are a bunch of cowboys, but they also happen to be the most routinely and highly trained professionals in the world. Pilots are trained in fast response information based decisions, trained to follow procedure, fall back on rudimentary practiced skills, and adjust to the environment as it’s changing in front of them. I might just trust a pilot with a gun, more than I do a young cop with six weeks of academy and a superiority complex.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Not with guns. Not with fighting. There’s no such thing as “he’s good a flying so that means he’s good in a shootout.”
That’d be stupid because the police officer gets way more training. And the police officer utilizes those skill sets way more often. No pilot has EVER tried to exercise this skill set. There’s no way to actually know if it’s a good idea or not. But I can take an educated guess with bullets flying around a small cabin during a scrum…
NuttPunch@reddit
Did an FFDO hit on your wife or something? Why are you so upset over this?
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Transparent deflection.
DDX1837@reddit
Out of curiosity, as there been an incident in the past 20 years where an FFDO has caused or escalated a situation?
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
No, but that’s not the point. It’s never been needed since 9/11. IF anyone ever tried to actually use it, it’d go south
DDX1837@reddit
It's not a point, it's a question.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
We’re using your same logic, in 24 years how often has it been used? Zero times therefore it is unnecessary
DDX1837@reddit
What logic??? I asked a simple question and you’re getting defensive instead of answering.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Why do we need it if it’s never been used?
DDX1837@reddit
Okay chief. How about this: There has not been a successful hijacking attempt in the US because any would be hijackers didn’t bother trying BECAUSE of the FFDO.
If you disagree, prove it.
You won’t. You’ll just go off on another defensive tangent.
So please, STFU.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Why doesn’t it happen anywhere else around the world then? Why doesn’t it happen international US flights? If planes aren’t getting hijacked who don’t have FFDOs then it’s clearly not the FFDOs that are the reason.
DDX1837@reddit
Almost exactly as I predicted.
You're just really special, aren't you?
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
If the FFDO program is what’s stopping hijackings in the US then what’s stopping them literally everywhere else in the world? Also you’re ignoring that there’s no FFDO on international flights. So if FFDO is so important, why haven’t they been hijacked?
Because FFDO has nothing to do with it.
GuppyDriver737@reddit
Delta FO pulled a gun on the captain one time I believe
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ut/pr/former-airline-pilot-accused-threatening-shoot-delta-captain-during-flight-scheduled
trvsmrtn@reddit
That actually didn’t happen. The FO currently has a lawsuit against Delta, the CA, 2 of the CPs and ALPA.
DDX1837@reddit
I understand that the filing is literally one side of the story. But if it's remotely accurate... Damn.
GuppyDriver737@reddit
So the captain made it up? Weird thing to make up
trvsmrtn@reddit
I read the lawsuit filing. Apparently the CA didn’t like him because he wasn’t just sitting there being a gear puller and wanted to be actively involved in the flying. They had some friendly banter after a medical emergency where they joked about the FO shooting the CA. The CA mentioned it to a CP who told him to call the FBI. No attempt was made to preserve the CVR. The union even got in on it, refused him the rep he requested and didn’t allow him to record the disciplinary hearing. Everyone at the disciplinary hearing knew that he had been reported to the FBI except him and they allowed the FBI to use written transcripts to get an indictment.
Apparently the guy had a good lawyer who got the recording from the CA’s call to the FBI where the CA said that he knew the guy was joking. That got the charges dismissed and then the lawsuit filed last month.
trvsmrtn@reddit
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69512709/dunn-v-delta-air-lines-inc/
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Heard the events were greatly exaggerated by the Captain. There was more to this between these two.
DDX1837@reddit
Any idea what happened to the case. After the indictment, I can't find anything.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Multiple guys have accidentally shot a hole in the cockpit lol.
Av8tr1@reddit
I only know of one. What were the others.
Av8tr1@reddit
Yeah, there was one accidental discharge on the ground at the gate a few years back. You hear about it in class. And then the Delta incident below.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I'm supremely confident that if a pilot ever has to use their gun like they expect to, a bystander (probably the other pilot) is going to end up injured or dead. The notion that these good ol boys with their Glocks are gonna stop a 9/11 attack and not hurt anyone by accident is the dumbest fantasy I've ever heard of.
It's nothing more than security theater, and in all likelihood, he's gonna get his gun taken by the attacker. So thanks for bringing a gun on the plane!!
Young pilots, just don't ever do the FFDO programs. This needs to die out.
Where does everyone else stand on this? Am I the only one that thinks this is a stupid hero fantasy that will lead to tragedy if it ever plays out?
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
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Dazzling-Ad-4364@reddit
Meanwhile I’m ready at the door with my crash axe ready to defend the flight deck!
charlesg82@reddit
Cope and seethe
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Why?
ApprehensiveVirus217@reddit
I’ve been told by my airline friends that participate, they do so for to be compensated for range time and ammo. They already shoot regularly so it was a way to get some free rounds on Uncle Sam.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
A taser would be more useful in that scenario than a gun. Why did you people never consider obvious alternatives like this? Put a damn cattle prod up there.
Mike__O@reddit
That's the main reason I didn't want to do FFDO. That juice just doesn't seem worth the squeeze. After 9/11 if you just pick the wrong cheek to lift when you have to fart the rest of the passengers are going to kick your ass and you'll be duct taped to the seat long before you have a chance of attempting to breach the cockpit.
So now you have a near-zero threat to worry about, and a TON of potential personal/professional problems. For example, even if you're a lawful CCW holder in the state you're currently in for your trip, you can't carry your FFDO gun like a personal firearm. I'm sure there's a "how are they going to know" and I wouldn't be surprised if there are FFDOs out there who break that rule, but say you get hit by a car or something when you're walking to dinner and now you end up getting busted with your FFDO gun where it shouldn't be. Plenty of other pitfalls beyond that as well.
ApprehensiveVirus217@reddit
Agreed. Incredibly unlikely we see a total hijack scenario in our lifetime again. Lots of ways to fuck up and get into a world of trouble.
Shit, I stress myself out going through KCM wondering if today was the day I threw my razor handle and a couple blades in my dopp instead of ole Gillette.
Mike__O@reddit
Same. I've got a work suitcase and a personal suitcase and a personal suitcase and never the two shall meet. I don't use my work suitcase for personal travel and vice versa. Even with that level of precaution I'm still paranoid about it.
I've heard of FFDOs who weren't doing FFDO on a particular work trip getting fired because they forgot to take the gun out of their beg before going through security. Not worth it
ReserveBidder@reddit
I think your viewpoint is extremely myopic. There are a lot more reasons to become an FFDO than to fulfill "stupid hero fantasies."
But thanks for your thoughts, buddy. We all truly care what you think! Well, I'm sure someone does...
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Like?
ReserveBidder@reddit
Free gun, ammo, range time, and training. But most importantly, no more KCM randoms on domestic trips.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
So nothing that actually benefits anyone but yourself…
ReserveBidder@reddit
If the program has no benefit to the public, then it's up to the federal government to dismantle it. Until then, I will participate as I please if it also benefits me.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
At least you’re open and transparent about what your real motivations are. Unlike many in this thread…
Av8tr1@reddit
Awwww....did the poor little gun grabbers Fweewings get hurt?
Yep its just you.
Ironically the FFDO program has a higher success rate than the TSA.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
You have to know how quickly you defang yourself by using words like “gun grabber.” It makes it impossible to take you seriously.
In what way? Nobody pilot ever used a gun in an airplane.
Av8tr1@reddit
If the shoe fits…..
Since the FFDO program was implemented there hasn’t been a security breach on a cockpit. But the TSA has a 90 something failure rate.
I meant it as a joke but I’m not wrong.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Since my son erected his nuclear zombie elf shield, there have been zero monster sightings. Same thing here. It’s never actually been put to the test so you can’t know that it works.
Av8tr1@reddit
You say potato, I say patato.
Either way the facts don’t lie. Since your son and I took on our swarn duty to defend against terrorists and monsters (although I thought the Elves were on our side?) there has not been an assault on a cockpit or bedroom closet door since.
Your son and I will be taking the Win.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
But you have absolutely zero facts to point to show that the FFDO program is the reason there have been no attacks. None. If you were right then, why haven’t we seen an attack on any non-US airline? Why haven’t we seen an attack on an international-bound US plane? I think a 777 loaded up with 300 something people on its way to Tokyo would be a pretty juicy hijacker’s target huh? You know those pilots aren’t gonna have guns. Why are Americans so prolifically bad and taking into consideration other places and situations that are not like America?
Av8tr1@reddit
All I know is there have been no monsters or terrorists through cockpit and bedroom closet doors. I think the facts speak for themselves.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Then you as a rational adult have to acknowledge that the nuclear force field works on my son‘s bedroom…
Av8tr1@reddit
That’s literally what I’ve been saying!
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Why don’t you put it another way,
Wanna know where I got that? It’s the go to example for the appeal to ignorance fallacy.
Av8tr1@reddit
Look man, all I know is, I wanna know where I can get a pair of those socks.
That and the facts are, the FFDO program has a higher success rate than the TSA.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
It’s literally never been tested. How can you says it’s “been a success”?
Av8tr1@reddit
Because of the magic socks
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
im just here for the Reddit tier comments.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
I don’t know why about seeing yet another captain with a gun recently just made me decided to lob this grenade into r/flying and see what happens.
ReserveBidder@reddit
We get it. You're a salty FO at a sub-par airline. Vent, brother. Vent. We're hear to listen to your irrational ramblings.
aviatortrevor@reddit
One day, we are going to have a FFDO pilot, going through some shit... a divorce... a death in the family... something... and they are going to take that fucking gun out, shoot the other pilot, and kill everyone on that plane.
A terrorist trying to access a secured cockpit door? They will be met by a dozen or two passengers rushing up to them to stop them.
Baystate411@reddit
Lol they ain't need a gun to do that
aviatortrevor@reddit
Maybe. I could shove the controls nose down as hard as I can at 200ft AGL. The ensuing fight probably won't be enough to save the flight from a totally fatal crash. But I think the gun makes things a little bit more assured that the suicide mass-homicide will go according to plan.
What's the argument for keeping the gun? As OP characterizes it, it's just about a cowboy fantasy of "saving the day." It's a knee-jerk reaction born out of 9/11. There are a lot of risks about that bullet hitting the wrong people in a cockpit invasion scuffle. Half the guys I fly with carrying a weapon are fucking morons who buy into dozens of bullshit conspiracy theories. They can't tell fact from fiction. I would feel better about guns not being in the cockpit. The hypothetical dude from Saudi Arabia rushing the cockpit door doesn't scare me as much with modern reinforced doors and a set of passengers conscious of the fact that all attempted hijacks should be treated as suicide missions.
Baystate411@reddit
I ain't readin all that but happy for you or sorry that happened
Mike__O@reddit
Wow, this is probably the dumbest take I've seen on here in a while.
FFDO is far more than just carrying a gun in the cockpit. There's some pretty serious training that goes into the program.
And what is it with grabbers always assuming that "the attacker will just take the gun anyway"? There is zero evidence that this is a common occurrence in any situation, much less with someone breaching a bottleneck like a cockpit door.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Neat. Why can’t they just do that stuff and skip the gun?
I found one…
No ones ever tried to use it. So you don’t know. But I can take an educated guess that a shootout on a plane isn’t gonna go well.
Mike__O@reddit
I'm not just talking about FFDO when it comes to the stupid "they'll just take your gun" argument. I see the same stupidity floated whenever someone tries to argue against normal concealed carry laws, or even gun ownership in general.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
How big of a snowflake are you that you can’t help but go straight to mass gun confiscation when that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic?
Mike__O@reddit
Uh, I said nothing about "mass gun confiscation". I suggest you reevaluate who is overly sensitive
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
Railed about people being “against gun ownership in general.” What is that if not a mass confiscation?
It’s the one who was asked about the FTO program and decided on their own to go about going after “gun ownership in general.” Because apparently you can’t separate the two.
Reasonable_Post_8532@reddit
Recurring training at that.
Weasel474@reddit
Someone's jealous they can't skip KCM
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
I don’t do KCM. I bypass security via the company lot.
Weasel474@reddit
And at outstations?
x4457@reddit
Nope, he works for one airline in one base and just unknowingly gave himself away.
Autoslats@reddit
Probably not very experienced in the airline game, either, since a year ago he didn’t know how MELs and deferred maintenance works.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
What are you even talking about? What in my post history shows that?
x4457@reddit
Well, the MIL F-18E tag might give away why that would be.
Weasel474@reddit
Darn, there go my van-gate drop-off dreams.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
I don’t do outstations. Day trips only.
Burgershot621@reddit
Legit that’s the only reason I’ve considered it lol
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Look at the idiot's post history. Spends all day playing with his little Nintendo Switch lol
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
If I was nine years old, that might hurt my feelings. But since I’m older than 9, I’m not ashamed to have hobbies. Or whatever the hell your logic is here.
ReserveBidder@reddit
Low blow, man. Let the dude post his unpopular opinion without making fun of his pecker.
x4457@reddit
SEEEKRITTTTTT NO TALKY ABOUTY
Yeah it's pretty dumb. An airborne armed hijacking of a US airliner is never going to happen again even if the FFDO program didn't exist.
ReserveBidder@reddit
It's kind of dumb, but it also has a few perks. If you like guns, you get to shoot for free sometimes, and you get some good close quarters training (if you're into that). You don't have to be a gun nut to benefit from that. Furthermore, you can tell TSA to shove it when they select you for random screening 50% of the time.
Combine that with the paperwork for every flight plus using FFDO lockers if you're flying international, it's probably a zero sum gain.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
I find it funny how pretty much the entire world outside of USA manages to deter the threat of unlawful interference without armed pilots on board.
Baystate411@reddit
FFDO go BRAAAAATTTT
graaaaaaaam@reddit
Using a gun in a combat situation effectively is a very perishable skill. I highly doubt that most people who carry guns for protection are putting in the necessary work to ensure they stay sharp with those skills.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
My experience in combat (Army infantry) is that green troops are trigger happy. They'll get you killed trying to star in their movie.
UNDR08@reddit
Some people don’t share your point of view. And that’s okay.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
When I flew for airlines, the only people who volunteered to carry guns were the very people who should never have them.
Frog_Prophet@reddit (OP)
That’s kinda what I’m getting at.