The F-22 is due to be replaced, it first flew in 1997. While some types of aircraft can have extremely long lives (B-52, LOL), complacency is a risk to maintaining superiority.
So? The F-35 and Su-57 are also not optimised for stealth from the back. Also, the J-20 is not optimised for rear aspect stealth, but it is still not unstealthy from the back. And it is a 5th generation fighter.
It has a considerable higher rcs seen from the back, compared to the frontal rcs, same as the J-20. Also, you didn't explain, why you think, that the J-20 isn't stealth from the back.
The J20 is is only designed to be stealthy from the front profile, even then it's dependent on the canard position.
Please explain what part of the rear of the J-20 isn't stealthy.
I'm not sure why this is such a surprise to anyone. China is still struggling to make a reliable native engine.
This is straight up wrong. J-10s, J-16s, J-15Ts, J-20s and newer J-11s are all using WS-10s, which is a completely fine engine. The J-20A is going to use the WS-15, which is an F119 equivalent and the J-35 is going to use WS-19. The Y-20B with WS-20s is also probably in service.
Please explain what part of the rear of the J-20 isn't stealthy.
The engine, the control surfaces.
are all using WS-10s
Which still isn't a reliable engine and it still impacts the over all stealth of the aircraft. China is just barely on par with Russian engine manufactures a this point. Even their new protype light bomber has 3 engines because they don't have reliable engines.
It's more then just serrated nozzles though. The engine performance negatively impacts it's stealth characteristics.
Wrong
China has improved the WS10 engines but they still fall short of their performance goals. Furthermore, the fact that they are using the WS10 engines in the J20 is another negative sign because they were supposed to use the WS15 but they still lack the material technology to keep up with contemporary Western engines. They don't have an F119 equivalent.
Which makes sense, because the Chinese are still a relatively young player in the jet engine manufacturing business. Material science isn't easy and it's harder to steal via espionage compared to other technologies. The Chinese might have been further along if they hadn't purged so many scientist and researchers during the cultural revolution.
It's not a bomber, but a 6th generation fighter prototype.
The Chinese can't even make a 5th generation fighter what makes you think that they would be making a 6th generation aircraft?
It's pretty doubtful that this is the reason for 3 engines.
It's very likely that's the reason for 3 engines. They still don't have a reliable larger engine, and adding a third one gives it a level of redundancy that they need. The J20 isn't able to use the engine that it was designed for because it's not ready and instead needs to use a less powerful engine. It's a tech demonstrator, they needed an engines to make it fly, they used what they had on hand.
It's more then just serrated nozzles though. The engine performance negatively impacts it's stealth characteristics.
Then you should be able, to tell me, what's wrong with the engine. Also, you still didn't tell me, why the control surfaces are supposed to be unstealthy.
China has improved the WS10 engines but they still fall short of their performance goals.
No, they surpassed their original performance goals.
I know, that they needed time to develop the WS-15.
The WS-15 is their WS-15 equivalent.
The Chinese can't even make a 5th generation fighter what makes you think that they would be making a 6th generation aircraft?
I think you might be a clown. The J-20 and J-35 are both 5th generation fighter.
It's very likely that's the reason for 3 engines.
No, it's not.
They still don't have a reliable larger engine, and adding a third one gives it a level of redundancy that they need.
This is just wrong, the J-10 is a single engine fighter and uses the WS-10 and has no reliability issues. The problem is that you need an absolutely insane ammount of thrust to enable it to supercruise at high speeds. There is no engine in the world, of which two would be enough. And it's doubtful if it would make sense developing it. It would take an insane amount of time and money. It makes more sense to develop one variable cycle engine to power Chengdus 6th generation fighter, Shenyangs 6th generation fighter and the possible the loyal wingman drones.
Should I look at a Chinese one instead?
Indian sources, regarding the chinese military are notouriously bad. I gave you a good source, which you choose to ignore. And yes, if you look at the right sources, then Chinese sources are better.
Then you should be able, to tell me, what's wrong with the engine.
It's not reliable and doesn't produce the power the plane was designed for. It's underperforming engines generate more heat. More heat makes the aircraft less stealth. Furthermore it can't supercruise which is supposedly a marker of a 5th gen aircraft but the F35 can't either so that might be a moot point.
No, they surpassed their original performance goals.
No the WS15 engines still haven't matured and the J20 had to use less powerful WS10s instead. WS10's have come some ways but they still aren't as powerful as the WS15s are supposed to be.
It's not a mystery that China is behind developing engines. Not that long ago they were still trying to procure engines from Russia.
No, it's not.
It really is. 3 engines make the aircraft larger, which makes it less stealthy. Again, it's a 5th gen tech demonstrator, it makes sense that China was using what they had since they can't build the engine that they want yet.
This is just wrong, the J-10 is a single engine fighter and uses the WS-10 and has no reliability issues.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se!
There is no engine in the world, of which two would be enough.
What makes you think they are 6th generation aircraft?
Indian sources, regarding the chinese military are notouriously bad.
I gave you more then one source. You linked me to an author who writes exclusively puff pieces for the PLA and when you go to one of the websites he's linked to you get some weird gambling page?
It really is. 3 engines make the aircraft larger, which makes it less stealthy.
The aircraft is this large, because it has a really long range and a hige internal weapons bay. It is not this large because of the engines. Shenyangs 6th generation fighter is smaller and has two engines. The B- 21 is also large and still stealthy. You can build large stealthy planes.
Again, it's a 5th gen tech demonstrator
Again, you are just plain up wrong.
had since they can't build the engine that they want yet.
So which engine do they want in your opinion?
There is no war in Ba Sing Se!
So no argument?
Maybe not in China...
So which engine would provide enough thrust?
What makes you think they are 6th generation aircraft?
It was known for a long time that China was working on a 6th generation fighter. And basically every reliable source, regarding the PLA is confident that this is Chinas 6th generation fighter.
I linked you an author, who is one of the most reliable and knowledgable pla watcher.
I think this is the most likely reason why we didn't buy any more 22s. I do think that we made a mistake as far as moving "completely" towards stealth as opposed to using stealth aircraft in a similar way that we use special forces. Special forces moves in, takes out a target or completes an objective, and conventional forces move in to complete the job. The same can be done with aircraft.
I don't appreciate how much the American people were lied to about how much the f35 could and would replace. I don't appreciate that it's costing as much as it does. I also don't think it's as dogshit as it's detractors would say.
I think there's a lot of propaganda on many sides when it comes to the 22 and the 35. I still think that the 22 and 35 are the top of the line when it comes to comparing aircraft.
I mean the US didn’t have a peer adversary we have plenty of f-22s as is. While they’re my personal favorite aircraft i can recognize producing the original 750 ordered is ridiculous especially without the USSR as a threat.
I've seen that one! The F-22 is so much bigger than I expected.
Something interesting I realized is that planes have gotten so much bigger since wwii, that modern fighters are comparable to wwii bombers. In particular, the f-22 is 62 ft long with an empty weight of 43000 lbs, and the Lancaster is 69 ft long with an empty weight of 37000 lbs.
It’s remarkable to me that they had to leave 17 raptors in place to suffer the wrath of a cat 5 hurricane. I understand that they weren’t operational so they couldn’t fly them out, but I would have expected that they’d put them on trucks and drive them out. Even if they left the wings and tails on I am guessing that there would have been a path that they could have taken to get a little further away.
Opp-Contr@reddit
Propaganda at its peak. Deny, deny, deny. An aircraft soooo goooood that they decided not to produce it anymore.
wirthmore@reddit
The F-22 is due to be replaced, it first flew in 1997. While some types of aircraft can have extremely long lives (B-52, LOL), complacency is a risk to maintaining superiority.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Air_Dominance
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
The F22 was the first stealth fighter (the F117 is a bomber). It has no peers but it’s also becoming obsolete to the F35.
America is retiring 5th generation fighters before any peer country has completed a production 5th generation fighter.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
You know that there are over 300 J-20s?
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
I said 5th generation not 4.5.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Yes, and i was talking about the J- 20 and not 4.5 generation J-16s or J-10s.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
The J20 isn’t a true 5th generation aircraft.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Yes, it is a 5th generation aircraft.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
That’s only partially stealth…
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Based on what sources? Because that's wrong.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
It’s only stealthy from the frontal aspect. It’s definitely not stealth from the back.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
So? The F-35 and Su-57 are also not optimised for stealth from the back. Also, the J-20 is not optimised for rear aspect stealth, but it is still not unstealthy from the back. And it is a 5th generation fighter.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
The F35 is, SU57 is not.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
It has a considerable higher rcs seen from the back, compared to the frontal rcs, same as the J-20. Also, you didn't explain, why you think, that the J-20 isn't stealth from the back.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
The J20 is is only designed to be stealthy from the front profile, even then it's dependent on the canard position.
I'm not sure why this is such a surprise to anyone. China is still struggling to make a reliable native engine.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Please explain what part of the rear of the J-20 isn't stealthy.
This is straight up wrong. J-10s, J-16s, J-15Ts, J-20s and newer J-11s are all using WS-10s, which is a completely fine engine. The J-20A is going to use the WS-15, which is an F119 equivalent and the J-35 is going to use WS-19. The Y-20B with WS-20s is also probably in service.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
The engine, the control surfaces.
Which still isn't a reliable engine and it still impacts the over all stealth of the aircraft. China is just barely on par with Russian engine manufactures a this point. Even their new protype light bomber has 3 engines because they don't have reliable engines.
This isn't just some random reditor armchair analysis.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
The engine with serrated nozzles? And what exactly is your problem with the control surfaces?
Wrong.Also, the WS-10 has serrated nozzles.
Are you really linking an Indian source. The article is completely meaningless. The author provides 0 sources.
https://thediplomat.com/authors/rick-joe/#:~:text=Rick%20Joe%20is%20a%20longtime,can%20be%20found%20on%20Twitter.
You can find a few good articles about the J-20 on this site.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
It's more then just serrated nozzles though. The engine performance negatively impacts it's stealth characteristics.
China has improved the WS10 engines but they still fall short of their performance goals. Furthermore, the fact that they are using the WS10 engines in the J20 is another negative sign because they were supposed to use the WS15 but they still lack the material technology to keep up with contemporary Western engines. They don't have an F119 equivalent.
Which makes sense, because the Chinese are still a relatively young player in the jet engine manufacturing business. Material science isn't easy and it's harder to steal via espionage compared to other technologies. The Chinese might have been further along if they hadn't purged so many scientist and researchers during the cultural revolution.
The Chinese can't even make a 5th generation fighter what makes you think that they would be making a 6th generation aircraft?
It's very likely that's the reason for 3 engines. They still don't have a reliable larger engine, and adding a third one gives it a level of redundancy that they need. The J20 isn't able to use the engine that it was designed for because it's not ready and instead needs to use a less powerful engine. It's a tech demonstrator, they needed an engines to make it fly, they used what they had on hand.
Should I look at a Chinese one instead?
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Then you should be able, to tell me, what's wrong with the engine. Also, you still didn't tell me, why the control surfaces are supposed to be unstealthy.
No, they surpassed their original performance goals. I know, that they needed time to develop the WS-15. The WS-15 is their WS-15 equivalent.
I think you might be a clown. The J-20 and J-35 are both 5th generation fighter.
No, it's not.
This is just wrong, the J-10 is a single engine fighter and uses the WS-10 and has no reliability issues. The problem is that you need an absolutely insane ammount of thrust to enable it to supercruise at high speeds. There is no engine in the world, of which two would be enough. And it's doubtful if it would make sense developing it. It would take an insane amount of time and money. It makes more sense to develop one variable cycle engine to power Chengdus 6th generation fighter, Shenyangs 6th generation fighter and the possible the loyal wingman drones.
Indian sources, regarding the chinese military are notouriously bad. I gave you a good source, which you choose to ignore. And yes, if you look at the right sources, then Chinese sources are better.
ReallyBigDeal@reddit
It's not reliable and doesn't produce the power the plane was designed for. It's underperforming engines generate more heat. More heat makes the aircraft less stealth. Furthermore it can't supercruise which is supposedly a marker of a 5th gen aircraft but the F35 can't either so that might be a moot point.
No the WS15 engines still haven't matured and the J20 had to use less powerful WS10s instead. WS10's have come some ways but they still aren't as powerful as the WS15s are supposed to be.
It's not a mystery that China is behind developing engines. Not that long ago they were still trying to procure engines from Russia.
It really is. 3 engines make the aircraft larger, which makes it less stealthy. Again, it's a 5th gen tech demonstrator, it makes sense that China was using what they had since they can't build the engine that they want yet.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se!
Maybe not in China...
What makes you think they are 6th generation aircraft?
I gave you more then one source. You linked me to an author who writes exclusively puff pieces for the PLA and when you go to one of the websites he's linked to you get some weird gambling page?
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Just wrong.
The aircraft is this large, because it has a really long range and a hige internal weapons bay. It is not this large because of the engines. Shenyangs 6th generation fighter is smaller and has two engines. The B- 21 is also large and still stealthy. You can build large stealthy planes.
Again, you are just plain up wrong.
So which engine do they want in your opinion?
So no argument?
So which engine would provide enough thrust?
It was known for a long time that China was working on a 6th generation fighter. And basically every reliable source, regarding the PLA is confident that this is Chinas 6th generation fighter.
I linked you an author, who is one of the most reliable and knowledgable pla watcher.
frigginjensen@reddit
DoD couldn’t afford F-22 and F-35. They picked the 35. Lockheed was quietly told not to make a fuss or it would impact F-35 orders.
delta_3802@reddit (OP)
I think this is the most likely reason why we didn't buy any more 22s. I do think that we made a mistake as far as moving "completely" towards stealth as opposed to using stealth aircraft in a similar way that we use special forces. Special forces moves in, takes out a target or completes an objective, and conventional forces move in to complete the job. The same can be done with aircraft.
I don't appreciate how much the American people were lied to about how much the f35 could and would replace. I don't appreciate that it's costing as much as it does. I also don't think it's as dogshit as it's detractors would say.
I think there's a lot of propaganda on many sides when it comes to the 22 and the 35. I still think that the 22 and 35 are the top of the line when it comes to comparing aircraft.
delta_3802@reddit (OP)
I don't get why you're saying that this is propaganda. It's just pics of an aircraft in a museum.
Opp-Contr@reddit
Just read the panel : "Air dominance" "Cutting edge simplicity",...
xlr8_87@reddit
Look at his profile and you'll get an idea haha.
MrNewking@reddit
Su 75 is much better comrade
Haunting-Item1530@reddit
They stopped because the cold war had just ended and the Soviets weren't really a threat and it was expensive to make
et40000@reddit
I mean the US didn’t have a peer adversary we have plenty of f-22s as is. While they’re my personal favorite aircraft i can recognize producing the original 750 ordered is ridiculous especially without the USSR as a threat.
Flamin_Gamer@reddit
The Airforce museum here in Dayton Ohio also has a raptor on display too! It’s definitely my favorite 5th Gen fighter out there
AskYourDoctor@reddit
I've seen that one! The F-22 is so much bigger than I expected.
Something interesting I realized is that planes have gotten so much bigger since wwii, that modern fighters are comparable to wwii bombers. In particular, the f-22 is 62 ft long with an empty weight of 43000 lbs, and the Lancaster is 69 ft long with an empty weight of 37000 lbs.
Flamin_Gamer@reddit
I think it was the F-111 that had double the payload capacity of a B-17 for half the size of
delta_3802@reddit (OP)
The F111 that is in the museum is one that my dad worked on while we were stationed in England
AskYourDoctor@reddit
damn, that's a good one too. also speaks to how much more powerful jets are than piston props
gimp2x@reddit
definitely missing the special coating, that's cool they are still keeping a use for it despite the damage
xlr8_87@reddit
It was demilitarised before being put on display after its accident
-Manosko-@reddit
Demilitarised… so it can’t shoot anymore?
Guess that’s why it says ED on the tail.
colonelpeanutbutter@reddit
Awesome info on the learning board about the F119 engine maintenance. Never would have imagined that!
EddieVedderIsMyDad@reddit
It’s remarkable to me that they had to leave 17 raptors in place to suffer the wrath of a cat 5 hurricane. I understand that they weren’t operational so they couldn’t fly them out, but I would have expected that they’d put them on trucks and drive them out. Even if they left the wings and tails on I am guessing that there would have been a path that they could have taken to get a little further away.
iboreddd@reddit
Beauty monster
JDDavisTX@reddit
4002 was such a workhorse for the program. Early development, no mission systems, just a badass air vehicle.