Any Americans who never plan to return home?
Posted by SuddenlySilva@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 208 comments
I'm retired, need to stay in the US a couple more year, working on Portuguese citizenship. Thinking if i moved there and got settled in, it would be a big lift to return as i get older. Be a lot simpler to just die there.
Just wondering how others have addressed that calculation.
DOP4-Girona@reddit
Moved to Spain with my wfie upon retirement in 2022. I don't plan to move back, though we will may occasionally visit (haven't yet.) We will retain our US citizenships as we are drawing pensions. Don't plan to buy property, though. Spanish inheritance laws would make it a pain for our son, who is still in the States. Apart from our son, we don't have any family back there, and it seems financially stupid to move somewhere where the medical costs are 5-10x higher at the time of life where we're mostly likely to need them.
Master_Pattern_138@reddit
I left at the start of 2021, sadly too, but incredibly fortunate, just barely making it (talking 2 week margin) under the age ceiling for immigrating to New Zealand (can't be over 55) and that was only because of my profession and education/experience. I'm now a permanent resident, can be a dual citizen in 5 years, and have gone through surviving cancer/surgery/treatment here that never would have happened at home. I would have been economically devastated and possibly just died (aggressive breast cancer of 2 types). So, now, I'm uninsurable at home, and if I even wanted to go back, will have to wait 5 years and hope Medicare is still there. Not sure I would give up clean, sweet air, cleaner water, clean food and stellar sailing along with a kinder culture even though I dearly miss my friends and my beloved California. Jury is still out.
ericblair21@reddit
This won't affect your decision, but for others reading, getting insurance through the ACA marketplace (and Covered California) explicitly does not consider preexisting conditions so you'd be completely insurable as if you didn't have any.
jaguarmo@reddit
No ACA under new administration.
circle22woman@reddit
False.
KhnemuSF@reddit
The incoming administration may not be able to get rid of ACA, but there's little likelihood of the subsidies being extended when they expire at the end of 2025.
circle22woman@reddit
I'm quite confident that the American people won't put up with the administration making health insurance worse.
KhnemuSF@reddit
Why not? Look who we elected. Again. They will falsely claim a mandate. Nixon and Reagan had legitimate mandates. No other recent presidents can lay such claim.
circle22woman@reddit
Because it wasn't his mandate?
KhnemuSF@reddit
The Republicans have never had a mandate to repeal the ACA. That hasn't stopped them from trying over and over again. And the only reason that they want to repeal it is because it was passed under the 1st and only African-American president.
Master_Pattern_138@reddit
I wondered if it was still the case, though would likely be an arm and a leg š. Hard to say though.
mega_cancer@reddit
I don't plan on dying any time soon, but I suppose when I eventually do, I'll be buried in Czech Republic by my husband and child(ren).
I often think about how when the kid(s) are in high school, we'd spend a school year in rural USA, just so they know my heritage and how blessed their lives are in Czechia by comparison.
Theal12@reddit
You want your teenagers pregnant and on meth? Because thatās all there is for kids to do in rural US
Evening-Car9649@reddit
You're very forward but you do have a point. I don't intend to have kids, but if I did, I wouldn't want them to spend much time in the USA.
It's boring, the ignorance is extraordinary, the urban planning (or lack of) is absolutely terrible. With the way the USA is heading, I am trying to leave as soon as possible.
mega_cancer@reddit
I grew up in rural USA and didn't get pregnant or on meth.
Theal12@reddit
I grew up in rural America pre meth and didnāt get pregnant but I saw many friends who did. And meth really is a plague in rural America now.
Sam-I-Aint@reddit
In a year or two there may not be a home to return to.
DruidWonder@reddit
Oh lord. The alarmism over a 4 year president is laughable.
KhnemuSF@reddit
The incoming president is merely a symptom of the rot that has taken hold in this country. It's not a question of tolerating the next 2 or 4 years. It will take at least a generation for American society to course correct to something approaching rationality and reasonableness.
Our courts have been ruined. The Supreme Court and both political parties are in the pockets of the super rich and corporations, neither of which care about what it takes for regular people to live here. It is going to be miserable for women, people of color, LGBTQ+ folk, immigrants, and non-Christians. This isn't a 4 year thing. We will never be the same again, and we're not likely to be in a better socio-political situation any time soon.
Exasperated_Sigh@reddit
As an admitted alarmist, it's not a 4 year presidential term. It's a 40 year court that's completely thrown out the constitution. The decisions over the last 3 years, specifically Whole Women's Health, Loper Bright, and Trump v US, shredded every bit of the rule of law in the country and have taken all power from the legislative branch and the executive if it's held by a Democrat. Other cases as well show this court, which will outlive most people over 40, is the lawless guide for the direction of the country.
DruidWonder@reddit
I'm not going to comment on my personal beliefs over those rulings. I will only respond by saying that just because you don't like the rulings, does not mean SCOTUS is out of control. Pretty much all of their rulings since Trump's last term have had Constitutional justifications, including some that slapped down the right-wing as well. But we don't hear about those because they don't cater to the emotionalism of alarmists.
Pro-choice was not eliminated in the US. It became a states rights issue because the court was not willing to rule on whether fetuses are persons under the Constitution. The only way to make pro-choice a Federal law is if fetuses get Equal Protection under the 14th Amendment which would open a huge can of worms, if you really think deeply about what that would mean to all areas of our lives.
Again, just because they don't support your politics does not mean tyranny is coming.
Exasperated_Sigh@reddit
Just copying my rely to the other comment. There's a dozen or so cases since 2021 that the court has straight up lied about basic definitions of words, including Loper Bright that overturned Chevron, essentially declaring all federal agencies illegal.
DruidWonder@reddit
I thought we were talking about SCOTUS. Now you're talking about Federal judges, of which there are many of all persuasions.
Our court system is not lawless. I realize there can sometimes be corrupt judges and they need to be dealt with on a case by case basis... but our system has not fallen into anarchy and lawlessness. That's a complete exaggeration and is frankly ridiculous.
Exasperated_Sigh@reddit
It's not worth my time to rehash the last 8 years of the courts up to and including SCOTUS shredding the rule of law. If you missed it, read literally any case involving Trump or any case of Biden trying to use any Executive power that the 5th circuit issued nationwide injunctions on. I've followed it all as it happened, I've got a law degree so have a full understanding of it, I've worked with and discussed with lawyers as the cases came down, and you're wrong. Period. Here's just one of the more minor examples where the court rules in open defiance of the clearly written law: https://www.vox.com/scotus/380956/supreme-court-voter-purge-virginia-beals-coalition-immigrant
DruidWonder@reddit
I appreciate that you're a lawyer but it doesn't mean that all people in your own profession even agree with you.
"You're wrong. Period." No, that's not how this works.
From your own link: "Realistically, this purge is unlikely to change the result of any races this election." So it was a ruling that had no real consequences. I understand the implications, but how is this any different than states like CA making voter ID illegal?
The fact that you only focus on Trump just shows that you're a partisan and not objective.
Saying that our courts are lawless is simply wrong. Controversy does not equal lawlessness.
Exasperated_Sigh@reddit
You're missing the point, intentionally or not. The link I had makes it as simple as possible for you. The law states clearly "you cannot do X." A Republican governor then did X. The Republicans on SCOTUS took the case, which they shouldn't have in the first place as there was no disagreement about the law or the facts, and said "yes, it's fine to go ahead and do X even though the law is valid and specifically says you can't do X." That's by definition a lawless ruling. It is in direct contradiction to the clear, valid law as passed by Congress. It does not matter what the impact is, the ruling itself is lawless. Same process happens for every ruling out of Canon's sham court in Florida involving Trump.
To give you another example where the result benefitted Democrats' position since you want to play the "hur dur both sides durrr" game, John Roberts' ruling upholding the individual mandate of the ACA back in 2012 was equally lawless, done purely for political reasons. Roberts wrote the mandate was a tax. It is not. Nowhere in the bill is it crafted as a tax. Nowhere in the debate was it a tax. He made it up so that the ACA wouldn't be struck down purely because he knew the blowback against the Republicans would kill them in the upcoming election. A ruling completely outside the law, made for political purposes. It's Roberts' entire legacy and they've expanded it to not even giving pretense of constitutionality like he did in that case. And now that ideology infects the entire court system plus 4 more years of Trump packing even more lawless judges into every level, including at least 2 more on SCOTUS which is why I'm comfortable saying it will be at least 40 years of this, no matter who is in the presidency.
ActiveProfile689@reddit
I don't like the direction either but does that mean the direction is lawless? The legislative branch has not been able to solve many problems for decades. I worry about the future as I watch one cell phone zombie after another walking down the street. I'm glad I was an adult before the phones took over.
DruidWonder@reddit
I'm a moderate/centrist and I have seen both left-wing and right-wing rulings from SCOTUS over the years that one could call "judicial activism." The typical circus always ensues... whichever side of the partisan aisle didn't get what they wanted accuses SCOTUS of overreach. This has been going on my entire life. Even my grandparents held these same complaints.
ProdigiousNewt07@reddit
Alright Moldbug š
Exasperated_Sigh@reddit
Yes, it's lawless and Trump vs US specifically proves that. The current Supreme Court has been ignoring the very clear words of the Constitution for awhile now, they've straight up lied about facts in cases (See Alito's description of a football coach forcing the entire team to pray at midfield as a "private, personally prayer" in Kennedy v. Bremerton School Dist. or literally everything out of the 5th Circuit in the last 8 years.
For instance, just today judge Kacsmaryk (trial judge within the 5th) ruled that the plaintiffs trying to ban Mifepristone could be replaced with the state of Missouri after it was ruled they didn't have standing without moving the case out of his court. Kacsmaryk in particular has completely abandoned the law in favor of seizing all power for Republican judges. See als: all of Aileen Canon's rulings.
raerae1991@reddit
There is a case coming up that may affect preexisting conditions too.
Sam-I-Aint@reddit
1933: Hitler became chancellor of Germany after a series of Nazi Party electoral victories. He used the Enabling Act to give his cabinet the power to legislate for four years, making him a virtual dictator.
A lot can happen in 4 years. A lot of this sounds like exactly what is happening right now but ya... Laughable... Smh
DruidWonder@reddit
Ah yes... Godwin's law has been invoked. I was waiting for it.
The fact that you think the US is anywhere close to being Nazi Germany shows the utter bourgeois decadence and privilege that you are living in. Not to mention ignorance.
But that's the US education system for you. WWII is like... the only modern war you really learned about it in school.
Sam-I-Aint@reddit
It's cool if I couldn't get it up I'd probably be a douche just like you. Best of luck with your ED, penis envy and your mom shitting herself. š
SuddenlySilva@reddit (OP)
SOme of us alarmist might be looking at different information sources.
DruidWonder@reddit
Yeah, wrong ones.
The US will survive Trump. Stop spreading fear and panic.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
"Survive".
The bar is in Hell, I see...
DruidWonder@reddit
That's not what I meant and you know it.
You are obviously young and have not lived through the various hells of many past administrations. Just because the country goes through hard times does not mean it's going to collapse or that we are headed for fascism. There are many shades of grey in between begging to make your acquaintance. But I understand it's easier to think in black and white than to dive in and do the hard work of learning about the complexities of policy, governance, and power.
SuddenlySilva@reddit (OP)
Before Trump or without Trump we were an oligarchy doing EVERYTHING not as well as every other country in the world with indoor plumbing. Trump is not the problem, he's the inevitable result.
DruidWonder@reddit
Just because congress is being influenced by oligarchs does not mean that we are in an oligarchy. Oligarchs would have to directly rule for that to be true, like a council of oligarchs. The reality is that oligarchs have their wishes denied on a regular basis by power politics.
The realpolitik is that there are many sources of power in the world and they are all competing for influence. The ultra rich certain hold a lot of influence but they have not taken over government. The government still controls the military and the police. They could arrest billionaires tomorrow if they wanted. The oligarchs have financial power and that's pretty much it.
heyitscoface666@reddit
How are we not in an oligarchy? Look at Elon and his power. Rich people dictate laws. the end.
DruidWonder@reddit
They don't dictate laws. They propose changes and then use their financial and social influence to privately convince members of government to support those changes. Just because they often get what they want does not mean they are the government.
Your problem is actually industry lobbying, not oligarchy.
I think we need reforms in lobbying and financial "donations," but regardless, our government is still ultimately in control of our country, not rich people.
heyitscoface666@reddit
Feels awfully close.
DruidWonder@reddit
The changes in elected officials and policy platforms with each election suggests otherwise.
Willem-Bed4317@reddit
You mean dump?
No-Tip3654@reddit
Trump was president from 2016-2020 . Did the US crumble? No. Will it completely devolve into some dystopian dictactorship? No. It will more or less stay the same way. A semi-democratic olligarchy that caters to corporate interests and doesn't care about regular citizens.
PrettyinPerpignan@reddit
Umm are you American? The US went downhill with the rise of white nationalism and anti-blackness. Iād say thatās downhill enough for me. Why are you even in this forum if you want to stay? Harris wasnāt authoritative thatās some right wingers fantasy wet dreamĀ
No-Tip3654@reddit
Is my flair not visible? Harris isn't liberal. Neither is Trump.
BaronetheAnvil@reddit
I gave you an upvote. But, nobody here wants to hear the truth. They would rather lose their minds over perceived Fascism on one side and perceived Communism on the other. My wife and I just bought a house close to the beach in rural Philippines. I'll be there until the world ends for all of us or just me.
PrettyinPerpignan@reddit
White people can feel this way because they arenāt the perceived targets of trumps ranging and policiesĀ
No-Tip3654@reddit
I feel like it is just two sides of the same coin. Like, neither republicans nor democrats are actually progressive. They are regressive. There is no progressive political party in the US that I am aware of.
Conscious_Mind_1235@reddit
I guess you forgot the one million people that died because of his poor handling of Covid. Or the people who lost jobs because of Covid when unemployment climbed. Or the kids separated from their parents who could not be found. Or the Muslim ban. Or did those just not impact you. And explain how the US became more authoritarian under Biden?
buitenlander0@reddit
You're being a bit too logical for internet dialogue.
No-Tip3654@reddit
logic is lovely
circle22woman@reddit
LOL, the grasp on reality on these comments is truly breathtaking.
ArbaAndDakarba@reddit
Best case scenario honestly.
ActiveProfile689@reddit
I too am worried but this is too much. The US will be diminished but not gone that fast.
tryfelli@reddit
If my wife wants to do a student exchange program thing there then for that yeah, maybe to do a recreational trip someday. Otherwise no, I have no desire to return yet alone settle ever there.
Able_Loquat_3133@reddit
US to U.K. now to China. Never going back to America.
Particular-System324@reddit
China is an interesting move. Do you plan to at least move back to the UK or is the door to that shut for good as well?
Able_Loquat_3133@reddit
I think the U.K. is by far the worst country in Europe. My plan is to go to China, experience the cultural differences and perspective, save money and get my formal teaching cert. I can either use my medical device experience to stay in China after I learn mandarin and work with start ups or (and more probable) buy a house at a golden visa country and teach online there! Europe in general feels much more like home. I donāt think I can ever understand why any expat would stay in the U.K. if they have the ability to be an expat in the first place
Particular-System324@reddit
Is this because of Brexit? I thought the UK was pretty good especially for "Anglo" expats, just less well paid than the US but also without the warts and all...
Able_Loquat_3133@reddit
LOL. The general weather is horrible. While I like that the food is healthier than American, itās still nothing tasteful. The people are also pretty negative as a culture. They donāt like standouts let alone confidence. The drinking culture is also very bad. You can definitely make more money in the U.K. than other European countries sure. Itās been my experience though that you donāt need āa lotā of money to enjoy the fruits of the EU. Although thatās all a privileged view on my end as I took a huge pay cut from the states but still making much more than the avg salary in the U.K.
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Left in 1988 with no plans to return. Presently 63yo and still globe-trotting but plan to settle in Japan in a couple of years.
txsjohnny@reddit
You are my superhero! Go on with your bad self! I love it and I am so jealous!
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Assuming you're not being sarcastic, thank you. I will keep on with my bad self.
txsjohnny@reddit
I wasnāt being sarcastic.
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Thank you. It's not always easy to know on reddit.
DreaddieGirlWest@reddit
This is the conversation I am having with my husband. āHow do they treat their old people?ā If one of us died and the other had dementia, what kind of living trust and executors are available to insure end life with dignity?Ā
circle22woman@reddit
I'm not sure how you think old age with dementia works outside the US, but I can guarantee you it's not pretty either. I should know, I've had family members go through it.
Sure, you get put into a socialized old age home where they wheel you out to a games room every once and a while, but the staff doesn't really care and cases of abuse aren't exactly rare.
Theal12@reddit
You just described a great many US nursing homes
circle22woman@reddit
That's my point - it's everywhere.
williamgman@reddit
This right here.
LupineChemist@reddit
Yes, the point being is it better to be in that situation thousands of miles from your family if you don't know a waffle from a bedsheet?
DreaddieGirlWest@reddit
We donāt all have families.Ā
And we are not all going to be mentally incapacitated at the end.Ā
The question is about the lack of information concerning legal instruments such as living wills/trusts and arrangements with any non-family executors according to oneās citizenship/residency/tourist standing in a country.
Theal12@reddit
If your family cares and visits, absolutely
DreaddieGirlWest@reddit
I am sorry that this happened to you.Ā However, my point was not specifically about dementia. It was about how oneās wishes expressed through living wills and non-family executors vary from country to country and according to oneās status of being a citizen, permanent resident, or otherwise.Ā
jacoblylyles@reddit
Yes, the EU has different laws for foreigners in a given country when you're writing your will. Look into it, it can be the difference between leaving what you want to your heirs or letting your new country take all (or half).
And most don't recognize trusts (they're considered only used for money laundering).
Be careful with the fox who wants to take care of your chickens.
DreaddieGirlWest@reddit
I believe the point being made is that every other aspect of being an expat is discussed in this sub, but country specific issues surrounding the legal and practical matters concerning end of life are not.Ā
jacoblylyles@reddit
I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just that countries have advantages and disadvantages. Some of them are related to culture and level of care to elderly, while others relate to the freedom that one has to arrange legal and succession to your desires and liking.
I just think that people should be aware so that can either plan accordingly, or perhaps make a different, informed choice (or the same choice: just aware of the way things really are).
DreaddieGirlWest@reddit
Yes, people should be aware. That is WHY it would be nice if more people discussed their experiences here.Ā
williamgman@reddit
I think the point is legal issues are VERY specific to the country of legal origin and the financial situations of each person. There are no "global laws". We can discuss the societal side of aging in specific countries. But to me, one should be consulting with a legal expert from the country one's interested in.
DreaddieGirlWest@reddit
No doubt that people moving to a country should check out the laws of that country.Ā
But if thisĀ forum can be/is used to discuss matters such as best tax situations and how to legally immigrate - both which should ALSO be discussed with a professional from both home and target country - then, well, wouldnāt it be nice to also discuss personal experiences concerning THIS topic so that others might increase their awareness and seek information before they relocate.Ā
RavenRead@reddit
Exactly. There are countries where this is a new thing.
lwpho2@reddit
Exactly
Minerali@reddit
expts that dont plan to return are not expats. they are immigrants, i was told
SuddenlySilva@reddit (OP)
Well that is the definition but as long as you're alive and have a US passport I guess you are whatever you say you are.
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
Exactly, it's a gray area. There's plenty of stories about expats who thought they were going to stay in a place permanently, but got sick of it after 3 or 10 years and moved back. But if they get citizenship in their new country and then renounce their US citizenship, I think it's safe to say they're "immigrants".
TraditionalRemove716@reddit
American here. Moved to Japan in 1989, tried coming back to the states a couple times but always missed Japan. Retired now and will die here.
False_Expression_119@reddit
Why did you move to Japan the first time?Ā
TraditionalRemove716@reddit
Burned out career in states, job opportunity in Japan and always loved Japanese culture.
Yokohama88@reddit
Hey 1986 for me. Wife and kids are here, good job and have no desire to get involved in the craziness back in the USA.
My only request is that my wife and I have our own grave and not her family one. Itās problematic as all the graves are full and when one opens up itās a lottery for he gets it.
TraditionalRemove716@reddit
The grave/cemetary thing is lost on me; my wife, too. Scatter me somewhere - anywhere.
lmneozoo@reddit
Can't speak to Japan, but in Eastern Europe they have holidays where they go to their family graves and have feasts with them lol
TraditionalRemove716@reddit
Here, too, but graves are tremendously expensive to buy and maintain. It's a racket.
lmneozoo@reddit
They're expensive to buy here too... maintenance is free though. It's up to the families to do it
Shooppow@reddit
I moved here for keeps. I do not feel safe in the US and I no longer feel like I have much in common with Americans. Iāve worked hard to assimilate and one of the things I happily gave up was driving. Just the thought of having to go back to spending so much of my life behind a steering wheel makes me want to scream. Iām happy here.
north2future@reddit
Yeah Iāve had people be sort of dismissive about how much I dislike driving in the US but it genuinely is one of the biggest detriments to my quality of life there. I was visiting family for a few days and lost more than a third of the hours we could have spent together in grid-lock and awful commutes between places.
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
Exact same over here in Japan. I don't own a car any more and use a bicycle to get around to places nearby, and the subway and trains elsewhere. It's great taking a weekend trip to the mountains on a train.
Shooppow@reddit
Agreed. I love letting someone else take care of getting me places, so I can just sit back and take in the scenery.
Dessertcrazy@reddit
I moved to Cuenca, Ecuador. Itās paradise! I bought a condo here, and plan to stay until I die. End of life is much easier here. You can get a private slot in the municipal cemetery (good forever) for $1000. Nursing care is plentiful, skilled, and inexpensive. (A clean house and good food is part of home care) So I can stay in my home. Alternatively, I looked at an Alzheimerās care facility that was very very nice, and again, incredibly inexpensive. Since Cuenca is an expat enclave, there are lawyers and facilitators who specialize in end of life. Thereās even a death cafe at a local place where you can discuss all this with others.
tpmaxwell2@reddit
Cuenca was easily my favorite place in Ecuador!
imaginarynombre@reddit
What do you do for fun in Cuenca?
I spent a few days there (and over a month in Ecuador) and enjoyed it but I'm not sure if the novelty would wear off.
Dessertcrazy@reddit
I just got home from a gourmet meal at a restaurant that also shows movies in English. The movie was Wicked. There are also big multiplexes that do shows in English, but Iām taking Spanish lessons 3x a week and hope to get good enough to see the movies in Spanish. I go to the symphony, opera, ballet (all free!). There are constant social events, live music, dance venues, etc. I go to high tea with friends. There is a spa in a cave here that has amazing mud baths. Thereās hiking, bird watching, nature trips. Horse back riding, tai chi, dance lessons. I live my sci-fi book club, we meet for lunch every other week. There are constant festivals, and indigenous celebrations. Parades, food festivals, craft fairs, cooking classes. Long walks along the river. Lunch with friends at the many restaurants. Honestly, thereās do much to do that I have to schedule down time so I donāt wear myself out.
Spruceship@reddit
I am happy to read that you're enjoying yourself!
Do you plan on becoming an Ecuadorian citizen?
Dessertcrazy@reddit
Yes, itās one of the many reasons Iām studying Spanish. It takes at least 5 years here to qualify. Thereās a difficult written test, but Iāll be over 65, and the test is waived for seniors. I do need to be able to have a conversation in Spanish about why I love it here. A second passport would be very good to have.
veronicax62@reddit
Sounds amazing!
imaginarynombre@reddit
That sounds quite nice, I'm glad you're enjoying it
little_red_bus@reddit
Probably to earn money in the lucrative tech industry from time to time. But I donāt think Iāll ever see the U.S. as a permanent place I want to live again.
MdmSeattle@reddit
Retiring in China, no plans to return to US of Assholes
Marckoz@reddit
how's life like there? how's retirement like?
MdmSeattle@reddit
Wonderful
lwpho2@reddit
I will be right behind you. But I do find it frustrating that none of the advice about retiring overseas seems to really address dying overseas.
atropear@reddit
Except every ad I get on Youtube. Funeral home offers for expats. I hope they don't know something I don't know.
uganda_numba_1@reddit
I don't get why proper think dying in another country use that different. It's really no different than dying in the USA. Wherever you are, you need to plan it, so I don't understand why people are going into specifics about their experiences in France, for example. The same thing can happen in America and the outcome would probably have been worse in the US.
Just like you had to figure out the taxes in your country of residence, you have to figure out the logistics of getting old too. Find a lawyer, make the preparations. Get specific insurance, if you feel you need it. Etc.
brooklynaut@reddit
I donāt think itās the dying in the United States. Thatās the thing, so much is the potentially Yoon, dignified and long and drawn out process waiting up to die.
Iām sure youāre considering that on a level, but having gone through it with both of my parents, really the only thing I wanted to have when I moved abroad, and yes, with no intent on returning home, was to be able to age and go through the process of dying with some sort of dignity.
Having watched both of my parents go through it, and a number of older people, Iām really not so sure. If for no other reason, the general environment of paranoia and fear with older people.
And thatās not really even considering how people treat them.
uganda_numba_1@reddit
I still don't understand how it's much different, unless you think you have family at home that would help you. I have more people here in my new country that would help me, than I do in the US. But still, I think I might die alone and I'm OK with that.
My mother died of cancer and there wasn't anything anyone could really do in the end - she did have hospice care in the end and I'm grateful for that, because that's what she wanted. And I think it helped her that people were close by.
My grandfather died in hospital and had been living in an assisted living facility and I would be OK with that too.
I have another relative, who has had cancer for about ten years now and it's gotten progressively worse. That sucks and her daughter has taken care of her. But I don't want my children to take care of me. I'd rather suffer than put that on them. They have lives of their own and need to live them. I can be a burden on society at the end and that's fine, even if I die a few years earlier.
TraditionalRemove716@reddit
Dead is dead. Why would I care where I die?
ActiveProfile689@reddit
The meant dying. You need to live in a place with good health care.
uganda_numba_1@reddit
Where is the healthcare bad? I've been in the sticks in America, where the healthcare was worse than developing countries over been to.
lwpho2@reddit
I mean the years long process leading toward death. Aging, health concerns, the infrastructure and institutions you would want to be able to rely on during that season of your life.
raerae1991@reddit
This is one of the things Iām looking at. The US doesnāt have good end of life care, like what if I need a nursing home, or in home help.
ActiveProfile689@reddit
The care in the US can be very good, but it's the cost that is a big problem. I'm not sure where you could go that is affordable and comparable. Most affordableolaces have a significant decline in quality of health care. Open to suggestions.
raerae1991@reddit
Care can be debatable. But you are spot on with cost being the bigger problem.
TraditionalRemove716@reddit
I don't understand the downvotes. Why should my personal choice impact you in such a way?
TraditionalRemove716@reddit
I don't understand the downvotes. My choice for me. You be you.
Academic-Balance6999@reddit
My colleagueās father started developing dementia while living in France. By the time his sons caught on, he hadnāt paid any bills for a year and had set the kitchen on fireā it was unusable. His son had to spend months straightening out his finances, getting the house ready to sell, and traveling to Paris to plead with the insurance company to honor his policy despite the fact that heād stopped paying for it. It was a nightmare.
Itās a good idea to think about who is around to help you when you canāt help yourself.
lwpho2@reddit
Exactly. You did such a better job of fleshing out what I meant!
Dapper_Cycle52@reddit
Canadian here, but I do plan on returning home when I can afford a place to buy and not have a mortgage.
ThrowDeepALWAYS@reddit
I return to the US after saving for awhile and stay in nice accommodations, eat in nice restaurants, splurge on concerts and sporting events, see some family and then getting the heck outta there.
fraxbo@reddit
I moved away from the US twenty years ago. No plans to move back now, and likely never will.
(Future ex) wife is Estonian. Kids were born in Finland, grew up in Hong Kong, and have now lived in Norway for three years.
My job is secure. Kids livelihoods are secure. I just donāt see why I would ever move to the US, which seems increasingly foreign to me.
I do spend about a month or two in the US each year on vacation (between summer, Christmas, and random other stops), but that is more than enough. I have no desire to deal with insurance, schools, healthcare, or saving for retirement in the US. Itās all just too complicated.
ActiveProfile689@reddit
Sounds amazing. Can I ask what kind of work you do?
fraxbo@reddit
Iām a professor in history of religions with a specialization on the ancient Mediterranean.
Think of a less handsome and less charismatic Indiana Jones, and youāre not far off.
Far_Grass_785@reddit
Howād you switch into being a professor abroad? Do you agree itās increasingly hard to become a history professor?
fraxbo@reddit
I did my doctorate in Finland. So, I was already abroad in that sense. There was no switch. I did my bachelor and master in the US. But, after meeting my (future ex) wife on an archaeology dig in Israel, I applied to a doctoral program in Finland where she was a master student. Once I got my degree from there, I would think it made it much harder for me to break into the US market. I have been a finalist a couple of times in the US, but never gotten an offer. And then about five years ago, I realized that I didnāt actually want to move there.
I would not recommend anyone to try to become a humanities professor. Itās a great life that I have. But itās very difficult to get to that point, which takes a lot of luck.
Far_Grass_785@reddit
Thanks for the details!
Marckoz@reddit
Incredible, any plans to move somewhere else after Norway? Do you learn the local languages of the country you're living in - or is English enough to get by?
fraxbo@reddit
I learned German before I lived there and used it while there. I learned enough Finnish to do some of my PhD courses, but I wouldnāt call myself fluent at all, Even at my best. Low B1 level likely. Hong Kong has English as an official language and one can use it pretty much anywhere. I learned a bit of Cantonese for shopping in wet markets and going to very local restaurants, but not more than that. Norwegian is the one where I am most advanced. I am at C1 level and give lectures and write articles in Norwegian. Iāve lived here for three years now.
I donāt plan to move permanently to anywhere else due to pension and general satisfaction with Norway, but shorter term sabbaticals and research stays will always be part of my life. For example, in two weeks Iām going to travel to South Africa and spend the whole month of February there to work on some articles and a grant application. In addition, when there isnāt a war on, I spend four to six weeks in Israel and Palestine taking students to visit archaeological sites and teaching them about the political use of history and archaeology.
False_Expression_119@reddit
NoiceĀ
billblank1234@reddit
Youāve had a hell of an adventure.Ā
asselfoley@reddit
I don't really understand the question, but I liquidated everything and moved it online. I have almost fully switched away from all my old accounts and emails. Once that's complete, I'm just going to be done
I'm sure most people would suggest not simply walking away. As far as I'm concerned, there's no real downside because the US has nothing to offer
The only benefit that exists is social security. I don't know if it will be impacted by going that route, but I'm not counting on that anyway. It may not exist, or benefits could be reduced so much that it is negligible. It's certainly not a substantial amount as it is already, and it's likely to get worse
DifferentWindow1436@reddit
This has been on my mind for awhile now. I am in my 50s in Japan. My wife (former translator) is Japanese, son is dual.
I love Japan, but my old-old age? I'm not sure. I may have to do a major push to get my Japanese to a higher level. A couple of years ago, I had surgery here during COVID and while I was ok once admitted, the admissions process made me realize how much I suck. My wife really handled it for me. So...how does that go when we're in our 80s? Or if we are not both capable and lucid.
txsjohnny@reddit
Believe me. You do not want to be stateside when getting older. Healthcare and nursing facilities here suck!
AmexNomad@reddit
I moved to Greece in 2016 (after that election) and have zero regrets. I go back/forth to The US to deal with relatives, but I have no desire to move back. Frankly, Iāve had the āopportunityā to be hospitalized in Greece and now never want to get medical care in The US.
AccountForDoingWORK@reddit
I have moved to and away from the U.S. 3 times and this most recent time I did so knowing it was my last. Especially now. This was exactly what we were afraid of when we left.
CoffeeWithDreams89@reddit
Yes. We are planning for our elder care and end of life needs in our adopted country just the way we had planned for them in the US.
Our move is not just for our āactiveā early retired years. We chose a location where private medical care, nursing care and household help - the things that allow you to age in place for much longer - are affordable in the way they are not in the US.
Alostcord@reddit
Exit strategyā¦from life.
ancapailldorcha@reddit
I'm Irish and I live in the UK. We're supposed to get healthcare free at the point of use which is mostly true. Social care is a different beast. The system basically dumps you in a home run on minimum wage migrant labour while draining your capital and assets, if any before it becomes "free". I find the idea of relying on such a system horrifying but it's far from an isolated example.
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
My Ecuadorian wife needs to get a better passport so weāre going to go to the US long enough for her to get her citizenship (3 years) then weāre going to leave in all likelihood. Being able to travel without needing a visa for every country is a strong reason. Iām not terribly excited about it personally but itās a necessary evil it seems.
We looked at getting her a Spanish passport but she doesnāt qualify and other options would be much longer and more expensive.
PrettyinPerpignan@reddit
You guys canāt live in Spain for 2 years and then get Spanish citizenship?
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
Nope, her sister looked into that and she doesnāt qualify
PrettyinPerpignan@reddit
Was she born in Ecuador? For due diligence Iād ask on the SpainGuru immigration Facebook group to be sure they have legal specialists. If she was born in there the Ibero American rules for citizenship should apply.Ā
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
Yes she was and her sister did seek legal advice. They collected the family history and all. I was disappointed too. I would have loved to move to Spain.
PrettyinPerpignan@reddit
Awww bummer. The second opinion doesnāt hurt though good luck wherever you land
ActiveProfile689@reddit
Why is a new passport so essential?
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
Because hers is quite weak and she needs a visa for most places. The process for applying for visas get to be expensive and time consuming.
peterinjapan@reddit
I've lived in Japan for
clarebare@reddit
I do not know what my personal future holds, but be aware that different countries and cultures have different traditions around death. In Germany you cannot scatter ashes (because human remains) and inheritance works differently than US. It you are thinking of moving for good, do some research if these things matter to you.
ericblair21@reddit
To elaborate, many European countries, at least, have forced inheritance with a legally specified inheritance order, and inheritance and estate taxes can kick in after a few tens of thousands of euros (but real estate is usually exempt).
jacoblylyles@reddit
EU allows non citizens to be subject to their county's national law when it comes to wills. As I understand it, they're not allowed to subject you to forced inheritance.
LupineChemist@reddit
I'm moving back to the US after 15 years away. But I'm in my 30's so hitting a point where I can really hit a career stride there compared to pretty much anywhere else. The idea is make a bunch of money so we can retire somewhere else.
Right now plan is to come back to retire in Spain. But who knows, my wife is Cuban and could be that if things change completely there we go open a business down there.
kiefer-reddit@reddit
I donāt know about never, but Iām sort of not interested in the current version of American culture and politics. I have a feeling that in a decade or two it might have balanced out to what I consider more normal. There are a lot of legacy people and ideas still running things right now, but they wonāt be in 15 years.
dimbulb771@reddit
Left the US 10 years ago. I have a wife, 2 kids and run my own business. I think my life would be dramatically different had I not left and the difference would not be for the better. Moving back to the states doesn't even enter my mind.
tinfoilfascinator@reddit
I'm an immigrant with dual citizenship. I haven't been back to the US since I left (close to 13 1/2 years) and don't intend to. I moved over shortly before turning 30 and my pension etc are here. The US is a fucking mess, atleast in Ireland and the UK I can afford healthcare. With regards to end of life care, I don't have family over here and I'm estranged from family in the states. But I do have some wonderful friends and the one listed as my emergency contact on everything in Ireland has a document with my last wishes, choices I would want made in a medical crisis, etc.
I worry about some of the Americans I hear that have reached retirement age and decided now they want to move abroad. Some are realistic, but I've noticed there seem to be quite a few that seem to think they'll be able to maintain their good health and finances forever.. but have no real plans for how to handle worst case scenarios other than oh sure someone back in the states will take care of that. Don't be that person. Make a plan and then go over the plan with the people it will most likely involve to see if it is realistic.
LifeDaikon@reddit
Permanent resident in Japan. Outside of annual visits to friends and family, I no plans to go back permanently.
NansDrivel@reddit
We retired to Finland 3 years ago and never, ever want to go back home. We love much more vibrant and interesting lives now, and learning to adapt to a new culture has been fascinating and invigorating. Weāre staying here! šš«š®š
i-love-freesias@reddit
Intend to die in Thailand. Ā American nursing home? Oh hell no.
circle22woman@reddit
100% plan on going back.
You look at most of the world and it's not look great. War and instability in Europe. China growing aggressive in Asia (plus crappy healthcare).
It's nice having 2 oceans between you and whatever crap the rest of the world is going through.
Itsmevi0l3t@reddit
Planning on moving to Europe. If I ever come back to US it is to visit onlyā¦
No-Pea-8967@reddit
Not planning on it. Been gone since 2010 besides a few business trips. Retiring this year. Husband is from NZ (we live in a 3rd country) and has no desire to go to the US or go through the visa process to live there. We have multiple options including NZ.
Pale-Candidate8860@reddit
I have only lived outside the U.S. for a couple of years. I am a permanent resident working towards citizenship. I have mixed feelings about Canada, but I do see good and a very good potential future considering its resource wealth. Also, every time I think about where I'd rather live, its either another province or another country. I just want to explore a lot of the world as I basically have only been in the U.S. and Canada. I love America, but I can acknowledge that it is becoming a different animal than when I was born and grew up there.
gowithflow192@reddit
Most people are āpulled backā when they get older. Could be to look after an ill parent, or often itās the pull back to what is familiar, despite all the down sides.
Cojemos@reddit
Left the USA 10 years ago. No desire to return to live in that poo hole. When I visit, the relief is knowing I get to leave.
Wandering_Otter_1992@reddit
You're going to find people who plan on never returning, and people who have returned. For what's it worth, I returned after living in Canada for a bit. Turns out the grass isn't always greener.
For me, my network of family and friends was vital. It's easy to envision picking up and moving abroad; it's a whole different beast to actually do it and only form superficial relationships 3,000 miles away from home.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
Usually, the US Embassy does a very good job of describing handling death (of a US citizen or national, of course) on the website of the particular nation you're residing in as an expat.
Recommendations for reporting, necessary paperwork, and making arrangements for the deceases (burial/cremation, and repatriating the body, if needed), and so on.
Example for Panama.
servo4711@reddit
I visit as infrequently as possible and never plan to move back.
James84415@reddit
My partner and I are leaving the USA this year and our rough plan is hire a couple to care for us. We donāt have kids or property in the US so we want to offer for our caregivers to get some of the assets that we acquire in the country we move to, as well as being paid to care for one or both of us depending on how our health is. We are in our late 50ās and early 60ās so have some time to find those people before we need them.
I imagine we will hire different workers to help us build things and through them find the people for whom this kind of deal makes sense.
Conscious_Mind_1235@reddit
You mind sharing which country you are moving to as I am looking at options and in a similar age group?
James84415@reddit
Weāre going to SE Asia and will choose our home base country after traveling for a while. We hope to connect with some people over there who want to start an intentional community.
As elders we can design the system for older people living there so we can all age in place, help younger members with child care and have younger members help us as we age. Itās what I always wanted to do in the US but good land is scarce and fires make making the investment in community problematic. Looking forward to living my values elsewhere.
SuddenlySilva@reddit (OP)
What a creative idea. I'm working on citizenship by descent which i can then pass on to my kids. But in a country where my remaining estate is not going into healthcare, I could make someone a good deal.
James84415@reddit
Yes and this works particularly well in low COL places like we are going to. (SE Asia) We are seeking housing security for our retirement. The people who take care of us will get housing security from us when we die or they can use the house as a second property or for their family.
saritallo@reddit
I have American extended family members who have settled in my hometown in the Philippines. Two in their 60s and have lived there 15+ years and married to locals. Another in his 70s, widowed and moved over during the pandemic. None even mention the US much anymore.
The main complaints I hear are about the sticky weather (all three are from PA), how slow everything moves, and how you often have to bribe someone to get something done. But they manage. One of them knows the local lingo and he is significantly more social than the other two.
They like that thereās a big immigrant community of Westerners there - fortunately not too many sexpats mostly just normal people who want somewhere warm and cheap to live out their final years.
GuyFoldingPapers@reddit
I left 2 years ago with my wife and we DO NOT plan to come back. That place is infested with Nazis and itās just going to get worse in the coming years
nosomogo@reddit
It's important to let people know what your wishes are, and make sure you have resources set up to enable that without putting your loved ones through a bunch of bullcrap.
ActiveProfile689@reddit
So true. Even when loved ones are far away. Just had a loved one die without a will and craziness ensued.
nosomogo@reddit
Dead people with no plan and no funding to do that plan are the biggest pain in the ass. Fuck them for doing that to the people that care about them.
MrJim911@reddit
I've been in Portugal for almost 2 years. No plans or desire to go back to the US. I have family and friends there, but they can come visit me. I have aging parents, so at some point I'll be forced to go back to deal with that.
SuddenlySilva@reddit (OP)
Hah, I am the aging parent!
tomorrow509@reddit
Migrated to Italy 30 years ago with my Italian wife. Always planned to return to the US for retirement. Retired now with no intention of returning. I miss America at times but why mess up a good thing. I am happy here.
ACapra@reddit
We are planning on going back once a year to visit family but that is it. Spain is our home now.
SlowPermit471@reddit
Once I am gone, I will not be returning
wanderingdev@reddit
I'll visit but I have 0 intention of ever living in the US again. Especially not as I get older because it's basically the worst place to be. I figured I might have to go back for a while to help my mom as she got older (only child) but she told me ages ago that she plans to just come to me instead, so we've worked towards that solution, which suits both of us much better.
Bokbreath@reddit
Moved to Australia. No plans to return. Bit easier decision for us because we have no living family back in the states.
If you do think of returning and plan to rely on medicare, you will need to pay into part B (at least) when you hit 65.
raerae1991@reddit
And part D (drug Rx)
Hot_Firefighter_4034@reddit
There actually was this post about a person whose father died while living in Panama and the extreme hoops they had to jump thru to get him properly buried and settle his affairs. Definitely a good read and something to take into account when planning to live abroad.
https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/s/Lw1zQwnDXk
SilentDrapeRunner11@reddit
I'm beyond done with that place.
aadustparticle@reddit
I'll never go back to the US
TargetNo7149@reddit
I donāt plan on ever going back home. Iāll stay in Europe and die here.
temmoku@reddit
There are pros and cons that depend a lot on your situation. The US does not make it easy on expats in a number of ways and that includes what happens to your estate.
I feel bad that a niece and nephew in the US may have to sort things out. It won't be an easy task from afar.
Probably the first question is who is going to make your end of life decisions? Who will have medical and financial power of attorney? Someone you trust may well have to decide to put you in aged care and arrange payment. We have medical directives in place to guide them, but aren't quite ready for DNR orders so someone will have to decide to pull the plug if something bad happens. If you don't have a person like that, then figure out how the system will work where you live.
Then there is deciding on an executor for your estate. Where I live, they will assign someone to do it if you don't have one in your will or if that is what you want. There are stories about those people essentially bleeding the estate dry rather than getting the assets to the people or charities or whatever you want. If you still have assets in the US or whatever country you are from, that will complicate things. You probably should have lawyers in both countries to help set up your will.
You can do all the Swedish Death Cleaning you can, but there likely will be stuff to deal with. Are there things you want to ship back to family back home? Someone will have to arrange that. And someone will have to get rid of the rest. I imaging my executor may have to arrange an estate auction or just decide to give as much to charity as they can. There will still be things no one wants that will need to be disposed of, a house to sell, etc.
Finally, we have instructions for what to be done with the pets. Maybe that isn't important to you but it is very important to us.
Since you need to file US taxes, FBAR, etc., someone will need to know how to do that if you become unable. Oh, and expect the US to do things like tax the sale of your primary residence when you move into care. They want to tax your worldwide income but won't give you the same breaks as someone living in the US.
glwillia@reddit
american, expatriated in 2021, iāll go back for visits but donāt plan on ever living there again if i can at all help it.
faulerauslaender@reddit
I'm trying to keep my options open. I have family in the US and would be happy moving back there. My wife has family here in Switzerland. Both are really phenomenal places to live, in their own ways. Super first world problem.
With our combined passports the EU would technically be an option as well, but I'm not really interested in settling somewhere long term with no family nearby. The people in your life are really what make it.
martinhth@reddit
Dual EU/US citizen family living in Italy. I donāt foresee us ever moving back to the States for a period longer than 6 months, but who knows. Life is unpredictable. I do think the EU is a better place for families overall and any āmoveā back to the States would be short term for a specific purpose.
HVP2019@reddit
After living abroad for most of my life I am more established in my adoptive country ( US) than I am in my country of birth that I had left in my early 20s.
Moving back to my home country or moving to another country and start assimilation, legalization and setting anew is not something I want to do in my retirement.
No do I want to burden my kids with hustle of trying navigate elderly care for mentally or physically declining parents in foreign for then country.
pmarges@reddit
I never want to go back. I even try to get my kids to come visit me in Belize so I don't have to bo there. But they now have very young families and traveling gets to be a headache. Especially my son in law who hates Belize abd sends my daughter and granddaughter by themselves. I guess I will have to make a trip this year sometime.
ArbaAndDakarba@reddit
I will not go back and I don't care how I die.
Alhena5391@reddit
Same here. If my partner and I can manage to expatriate, we do not plan on going back.
KiwiBeacher@reddit
Ditto
curveball21@reddit
I gave my wife standing order to bury or burn and inter me near the spot I die at. I figure at the least it would give curious descendants an excuse to get out a little more.