Flight instructor who have corrected someone (who was not your student), how was your advice received?
Posted by HistoricalAd2954@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 43 comments
Up until this point I’ve never given advice to someone who hasn’t asked, but for instructors who have, do people appreciate the advice or feel offended?
flying-is-awesome@reddit
It really depends on how it is delivered and the person you are giving it to. If they are reasonable and open-minded they tend to take it well and thank you for it. If they are set in their ways or feel like you are belittling them then they tend to get a stiff back and don't take the advice. It helps if you have a reasonable tone in your voice and you are sincere, some moral authority, and/or something from the FAA to reference.
PutOptions@reddit
Kinda the opposite case, but pleased to report that when I ask questions of instructors that are not mine, they reflexively give me all the time and attention necessary for me to understand something. Off the clock even.
PM_ME_YOUR_PITOTTUBE@reddit
It is me.
AdministrationAny134@reddit
Username check ✅
777f-pilot@reddit
We had a flight instructor years ago (30 to be exact) who had been a 121 guy, he was a bitter pissed off guy. He was going around telling my students I was setting them up to be violated because they weren’t carrying a flashlight with 2 D cell batteries. I had one student actually quit flying with me because of it. When I found out, I pulled out the reg and showed him where that was true under 91 if you’re flying turbines. At the time I was the chief instructor and knew the regs like the back of my hand. He decided to argue with me in front of the whole FBO. So I took him to task and started quizzing him on regs. It didn’t go well for him. Ultimately the chief instructor decided he needed to go.
DibsOnTheCookie@reddit
Hmmmm
777f-pilot@reddit
3rd person is fun
Paprika_on_the_rocks@reddit
I can tell you from a student point of view. I would be very thankful for any advice. There is so much to learn and I know I am very serious about learning it the right way. So if someone would have corrected me, I would have been thankful.
beastboy4246@reddit
I tell my instructors as I get to my end of training during Checkride prep to be overly critical of me so I'm over prepared for them. Hell I went up for a simple c172 check out with my flight club CFI who I told I'm starting CFI training and the first thing he told me is "I'm going to grill you during this flight so you're ready". I highly appreciated that
Veritech-1@reddit
We held an entire safety meeting for CFIs because of one guy. Everyone knew.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Up until this point I’ve never given advice to someone who hasn’t asked, but for instructors who have, do people appreciate the advice or feel offended?
EDIT for clarification: this is regarding someone who is maybe a private pilot or something along those lines who may be doing something unsafe
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.
neinelleven@reddit
In phoenix we have something called “the stack” over a VOR that’s an IAF to every approach possible so we stack up in holding patterns and gradually descend one by one to the approach altitude. This can be complicated and very intimating if you’re not used to it. The airport that these approaches go down to is very busy with GA flying. Sometimes people come in and fly in the area unfamiliar with some strict procedure. Had a foreign pilot attempt to play the stack and he folded pretty bad. A lot of people were being dicks, which is understandable because it is VERY dangerous to mess up the stack or cut someone off. I very nicely walked him through the process of the stack and literally told him “N123AB descend to X altitude until he shot the approach down safely. I then sent him to the website where the stack procedure is laid out in detail. He listened to my instruction and was very thankful and I felt bad, everyone else was being rude and that can very negatively affect someone’s who’s flying a plane. We have to teach each other and be open to criticism without taking things personally.
cmkbak1411@reddit
Can you post the website this sounds interesting to learn
neinelleven@reddit
Aftw.org. It’s a great website with a lot of resources. Find “practice areas”tab and it’ll be under Stanfield procedure
CaffeineOverloaded@reddit
I was just there today, it's a busy place, but no need to be upset. I think I heard that over the radio...
MTBandGravel@reddit
I gave advice to a guy a long time ago about to take off into bad weather. I’m not sure if he was offended, but blew me off anyway. He didn’t stay alive long enough for me to find out how he feels about it now.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
Had that same thing happen at an air taxi I worked for in Alaska. The weather was absolute shit, none of the 135s were flying and this guy comes into fill his Jerry cans. He says something about flying to a local lake, we told him there is no way we are flying.
This dumb fucker takes off and flies upstream a canyon/drainage low enough to hit the one electrical wire that crosses the river, and kills himself.
Dude, if the local 135s are not flying because of the weather (especially in Alaska) you should not launch.
ronerychiver@reddit
Plot twist: “I followed him to the plane and shot him”
DisregardLogan@reddit
Holy shit
sirduckbert@reddit
I saw a guy post a video on Facebook doing something a little bit dumb with passengers. He was quite experienced, but was putting the place into a bad place if he had an engine failure (flying eye level with a cliff face over the ocean with no beach). All I asked was if he had made his passengers aware of the risk they were taking - he got really upset with me.
I don’t really super care what an individual does risk wise but as soon as they involve other people I get a bit more upset
cmmurf@reddit
"I expressed my concerns, but they were dismissed."
vs
"I made no effort to give my opinion, and I regret it."
All we can do is do our best. So we should.
PM_ME_YOUR_PITOTTUBE@reddit
I had a student that had reached end of course. We’re working on check ride prep. I specifically taught him where to look in the PHAK and AFH, I told him I wanted him to study each section of Area of Operation I: Preflight Preparation using the PHAK and AFH because I would asking questions about it the next day to talk through anything he didn’t understand. He would show up completely unprepared from a ground knowledge perspective.
After about 5 lessons of me spoon feeding this stuff to him, he once again comes in completely unprepared. I told him “look, I don’t want to be hard on you about this, but you not being prepared for these lessons is making it difficult to move forward. I know you want to take your checkride and move on, but you need to do your side of the work. I don’t want to keep wasting your money and I don’t think it’s fair to have you pay me $100 for 2 hours of me asking you questions you don’t know the answer to.”
He then went on to say that I wasn’t teaching him anything, and I asked him to elaborate to which he didn’t. I asked him if he was hung up on any particular area and he just kinda said “all of it.” I told him that I’m more than willing to help him, but I can’t spoon feed him. My job is to make sure he is being a resourceful and safe single pilot, and studying and showing up prepared is a big part of that.
The thing is, he knew a lot of the stuff, but certain areas (which I had identified to him and talked over with him ad nausea) just weren’t ready for a checkride and I communicated that to him and offered my help. After a bit, it became clear to me he wasn’t studying it at all when he went home. He just wanted me to tell him all of it, but then wouldn’t retain it or read back over it, so when it came time for me to play Mr. DPE, he’d fall flat.
I sent him home and told him to study, and maybe study with another student. He went home and never came back. I feel bad about it, and maybe I could have handled it differently, but that’s all I knew what to do with the situation at the time.
ronerychiver@reddit
I’ll take a hungry studier with shit monkey skills any day over a good stick who refuses to put their nose in a book and search for an answer. There’s nothing wrong with what you did. I recently inherited a TWO YEAR PPL student who thinks he’s ready for a checkride because of how much time he’s put in but can’t tell me anything about airspace or what a private pilot can legally do. He wants me to talk to the side of his head and thinks “if I can make it through the next three, I’ll be good to go”.
I think they fall into fantasy (I’ll throw a dollar in the FOI swear jar) and just see this as a hobby like riding a bike. Something fun and cool to do. But don’t realize that they’re getting permission to fly a missile in the same air that millions of people fly in every day.
justonevegetable@reddit
My perspective is that as pilots we should always try to continue to learn and be better. If we aren't that's a red flag. So personally, I want to absorb any advice I can from anyone. I take it with a grain of salt depending on where said advice is coming from, but I would never be angry about a discussion about how to improve or be safer. That being said how you give advice I think helps how well it is recieved and if they take constructive advice badly that is hazardous attitude that should be corrected.
ronerychiver@reddit
Perpetual students
UpperLurker@reddit
I was given a student who couldn’t land.
5 landings in and I realized… He was so fat that his stomach got in the way of him flaring.
I was mortified but he was such a nice guy that I had to tell him. “Listen, man. I don’t want to say this, but it’s true. Your stomach is getting in the way of you moving your arms to flare properly. I’m more than happy to keep teaching you, but you’re going to need a bigger airplane or to lose some weight if you want to solo. I have no issue teaching you in a Cessna 182 or Piper Cherokee 6, but there aren’t any for rent around here.”
He took a few more lessons, thanked us, then went and lost 150lbs over the course of about 18 months. Got his license in the Skyhawk, then bought a 182 on bush tires and he flies it from his farm. Amazing guy.
ronerychiver@reddit
“Start crushing that yoke into your gut so you touch down at slowest possible airspeed or lose 150 lbs. Either will make you live longer”
WorkingEasy7102@reddit
Damn he locked in and got after it
UpperLurker@reddit
It was seriously one of the most inspiring things I’ve ever heard.
He didn’t even want to fly for a living. He was a farmer who inherited another farm about 100 miles away and wanted to get between them quicker!
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit
Honestly heartwarming story. really happy for him. gotta love nice people :)
pilotniner41@reddit
I ripped a new one on a paraglider pilot the other day. There I was at my house on a day that the clouds were 500 feet and vis. was 1/2 mile. What do I see zipping 20 feet off the ground in the field beside my house, but a green chute with a man and a backpack motor. I knew who it was and that he took off from my local airport 10 min away, I jumped in my truck and drove to the airport. He landed about 1 min after after I parked. I asked him what he thought he was doing. I then explained VFR minimums, in an aggressive fashion. He just grimaced and listened, I hope he learned something. He did not seem impressed. This is the same guy that took off and crossed a runway as a Warrior was taking off, the Warrior had to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
vtjohnhurt@reddit
I think flight instructors should consider making their unsolicited input to the student's instructor, rather than to the student directly. I once stood next to a young student while they cried uncontrollably for 10 minutes after a flight instructor was stern with them about a mistake that they had made. The situation was worse because the flight instructor was angry. I did not say much besides, 'it's going to be okay'.
acesup1090@reddit
I have definitely shed some late night tears along the way
WorkingEasy7102@reddit
If they feel offended they shouldn’t be pilots
ExpensiveCategory854@reddit
If I was f’in up somehow/somewhere I’d want to know. Maybe not in the middle of the FBO or school waiting area but would be happy to receive any and all feedback.
FridayMcNight@reddit
It's been my experience that the CFIs you'd actually want advice from usually mind their own business and avoid teaching those that aren't their clients. And the CFIs that shouldn't be flying, let alone teaching... those are the ones most ready to offer unsolicited advice.
Wabdering-Fly@reddit
I've had a solo student from another flight school cut me off extremely close on downwind while we were doing circuits.
Gave him a long briefing on the ground before he took off to go back. He took it positively so all went well. If it wasn't received well my tone wouldn't have been as pleasant as it was.
HistoricalAd2954@reddit (OP)
Did you do so over the radios or was he on like a XC?
Wabdering-Fly@reddit
He came in from a cross country, initial unpleasant reaction from my side on the radio and I then parked next to his airplane later. I was sure he wouldn't be in a good mindset going back if I didn't talk to him on the ground.
HistoricalAd2954@reddit (OP)
I’ve seen student solos do something similar stuff. Until now I’ve taken the MYOB approach but I’m starting to ask myself if we have a duty to correct unsafe behavior. For student solos, it seems to be a little easier to justify
ForearmDeep@reddit
Really it’s 80% about how you deliver the advice, most people will usually be receptive but some folks are just too stuck in their ways or don’t fly often enough to remember the advice next time they fly.
Frankly, I’m losing a lot of patience for the demographic of pilots that go “I’ve been flying for x amount of years, I know more than you” and then they proceed to do some of the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen
HistoricalAd2954@reddit (OP)
I had a pilot tell me that a CFI with 1000 hours wasn’t as good as Private pilot with 400 hours. His justification was that if we weren’t flying the plane then it doesn’t count
brobrobaginsX@reddit
It’s usually received well. However if I’m correcting a student who isn’t mine I usually say something along the lines of “Bob, your CFI, likes to do it this way but this is how I like to do it” that way, because everyone teaches differently, I’m not forcing them to do it my way but I’m giving them insight on how I think something should be done and letting them decide what solution they like best so as to not discredit their primary CFI. And what I’ve found is most people will take what I’ve showed them and sort of mix it in with how their CFI taught them. However if I have to correct something thats blatantly unsafe then I’m going to be much more straight forward about what needs to be done to correct it. But a lot of “corrections” I recommend to students that arnt mine are small things like differences in techniques or small procedures.