Am I an idiot for not leaving Spirit?
Posted by Intelligent_Tie_655@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 188 comments
Hey guys/gals,
I just wanted to get an outside opinion before I made my final choice because I'm at a bit of a crossroads. Lately, I think all the news and information has been getting to me and want to get some clear opinions.
Background: Spirit FO, 1k+ turbine SIC, lives in base (unaffected by upcoming furloughs), with a CJO on the table from Endeavor (going in as FO w/ immediate upgrade to CA), No other CJO's at this time. Class date is March 2025. (Kalitta and Frontier told me TBNT). Endeavor is unwilling to push my class date past March so I have to make a decision soon.
Am I a fool to still stay at Spirit, reject the CJO, and see what happens? Even if that could mean I could end up on the street without a job? If I take the job with Endeavor, I am guaranteed to commute to NYC (really don't want to live there) and will be at the bottom of the seniority list for 3 years (or more if all the hiring stops). Pay DOES NOT matter much and the TPIC would be helpful in boosting my app at a legacy as I have none.
My mentor I talked to (who is a long-time United CA) has encouraged me to stay at Spirit and see what happens and I know commuting for a long time can really degrade your QOL and happiness over time. I was also considering NetJets/Avelo instead (Im aware I have no CJO for them). Just want to get some clarity from others and trying to make the best decision possible for myself. I know no one has the right answer but getting your guys' opinions definitely helps, thanks a lot!
Hdjskdjkd82@reddit
Let say if you do stay at spirit. And you somehow lose your job, you’ll have a good chance landing an interview with a legacy with your experience since a few of them prioritize interviewing furloughed pilots.
I feel like going to Endeavor is probably wise if you prioritize stability. Honestly depends on entirely on what you want.
shamrox22@reddit
As a fellow Spirit guy who is getting furloughed the “priority interviewing” for furloughed pilots is a load of BS. Only people getting interviews at legacy’s from Spirit are the Captains with TPIC time.
Most of the 400+ furloughed Spirit pilots have less than <1000 hours of 121 time with little to no TPIC time.
Hdjskdjkd82@reddit
Things is all the legacies as far as I know right now just are not considering anyone without 1000 121. I think once you hit that bar it should open up more possibilities. Based on what OP said, I think he has some chance. But nothing is guaranteed and these posts are strictly my opinion, and I'm not trying to steer anyone one way or another.
shamrox22@reddit
Very true.
I’m just venting as a soon to be furloughed pilot who can’t even get a regional to look at me despite <500 hours of 121 time and a clean training history.
licensemeow@reddit
Another soon to be furloughed guy. 1100 121, 2500 tt, multiple LOR’s at both delta and United…
United at least got back to me and said 4k tt is the new minimums, at least for now. Once they run out of NK captains, and maybe regional captains, we’ll see… pm me your edv date, I’m going too.
Ecthelion-O-Fountain@reddit
I would expect 4k TT to not really go away. The pilot “shortage” is over, back to business as usual
ArchiStanton@reddit
Want me to review your app and make sure it looks spotless?
flynryan692@reddit
If you makes you feel any better, and it probably doesn't, they walked 200+ people out of HDQ yesterday escorted by armed security without any notice at all. Just a "surprise, you no longer work here". At least you know you're being furloughed and can prepare mentally/financially.
greenflash1775@reddit
The language is furloughed pilots that are qualified. Pilots that don’t meet the current minimums for hiring (gone are the days of zero PIC hiring) are not covered under the preferential language.
Callsign-Jager@reddit
I was furloughed on Sept 1st. Got a CJO from another ULCC who operates the 320 back in May. I finished initial with them recently
The class behind me had 5 NK pilots who all got CJOs in September
The only low time guys I’ve personally know that have gone to a legacy were prior students of mine who were RTP. United and American, no Delta
butter-fruit@reddit
I saw someone from spirit (FO) no PIC time prior get hired by delta on my LinkedIn
Arkin3375@reddit
A lot of those people were interviewing and in the pot pre current hiring landscape
anonymous789987@reddit
Yesterday’s class at Delta was 26 Spirit guys out of 52 total.
BringPopcorn@reddit
If that's true, then there were only 6 off the street hires... Endeavor gets the first 20 out of every class.
52 - 20 = 32 of which 26 were Spirit?
That sounds like priority to me...
ave8tor218@reddit
Priority interviewing still means you need to be generally close to the carrier’s mins. As mentioned, everyone has significantly increased their mins. There are a lot of people currently on property at UA/DL who if they applied with their current TT/TPIC they couldn’t get a call back either
cjonesaf@reddit
Legacies don’t prioritize furloughed pilots for interviews. Legacies don’t GAF. This is a dumb WOM that needs to die by fire.
prex10@reddit
False. 100% false. It's directly in the UPA that furloughed pilots are given priority for hiring
cjonesaf@reddit
Huh. Ok, I learned something today. My legacy doesn’t have that. Good to know 👍🏼
GeneratedUserHandle@reddit
It’s section 21-R of UPA. The problem is most furloughed Spirit pilots do not meet hiring standards with their sub-1000 turbine time and no TPIC.
I_am_Mun_C@reddit
It’s not a WOM, it is actually codified in United’s Collective bargaining agreement. I’m not sure about DL/AA/AS though.
Sasquatch-d@reddit
Wrong.
Furloughed ALPA pilots most definitely get preferential interviews at other ALPA legacies. My regional was ALPA and went belly up during covid, and most (yes I mean most) of us are at one of the two big ALPA legacies.
Lonely-Prompt-9399@reddit
You've got all that time and you're getting TBNT from Kalitta et al.? Damn, I'm screwed!
extralegal@reddit
Hard call man - I don't think your an idiot for not leaving to a regional, but I think the idea of leaving is worth the consideration. I've been stewing in it the last 8-9 months with you and honestly knowing I'm furloughed in two weeks is a bit of a relief at this point - it made the decision easier for me. I have to find a way to stay current and sitting at the bottom of a regional list, even with a place to live outside NY doesn't seem like a great spot. Even with the furlough looming, going to a regional, especially commuting, would have be the last option I would even consider. I'd probably go back to 135 before that.
On the flip side, if it's the only option - at least an upgrade is more likely in the short term with 9E if you ended up there. I know of a few who went over to RPA, and they were more senior over there walking out of training than after a year of sitting on reserve at NK.
I think if I wasn't getting furloughed this time around, and I wasn't commuting at NK, I would probably wait until something more lateral came my way and keep the legacy apps updated just in case. I would probably hold onto the number until something at the very least equal came along, especially if I could keep flying during that time. Being on a sinking ship sucks, but at least your not doing nothing - the paychecks are still coming for now.
I understand the need to hedge your bet with your NK number and hope someone equal or better bails us out, but you could also end up stagnating for years on a non-moving list with no upgrade in sight. I think there's going to be some list movement in the next 12-24 months with how many people are on their way out, but at some point that stops again and we're back to the snail pace of retirements and the florida lifers. The entire situation is a giant "who the hell really knows". I don't even think management knows.
In my 20s and early 30s I watched a lot of people make moves that I thought were short term and aggressive and actually end up in better positions down the road because of it. I guess it taught me that you can't really plan for a "maybe". I'm sure there is more than one road to a legacy job, if that's your endgame. Just keep flying somewhere.
CaptainJackass123@reddit
RJ PIC > Bus SIC
It’s how a legacy will view you.
RJ captain at EDV bottom of the list in NY sucks? Absolutely.
Better for your career and resume? 100%.
Do you want LCC QOL? Or legacy QOL?
Gotta embrace the suck sometimes unfortunately.
The 500 SIC RJ FOs getting hired at delta mid covid was wild. Awesome. Just unheard of.
FitAd8129@reddit
I think spirit is starting to turn around. However I say this as an F9 FO… I really hope they don’t furlough anymore of our brothers and sisters in the sky, and get their operation profitable again.
ndem763@reddit
I'm in the same boat. I'm tempted to leave but there's nowhere I'd rather be than Spirit unless a legacy calls, so until there's more clarity about what's going to happen post-bankruptcy I'm staying put. I'd hate to preemptively leave for a place I don't really want to be just for more perceived stability, then have things get turned around at Spirit (or we get bought, etc.) and wish I'd have stayed. My worst nightmare is going back to a regional then getting stuck there indefinitely if hiring slows industrywide.
greenflash1775@reddit
If you have the PIC mins to get to a legacy then you’re not wrong. They don’t have those mins.
ndem763@reddit
Right, that's what I mean. I don't have PIC either and I'm lucky to even be where I am now at my experience level, so I don't want to unnecessarily go back to a "worse" job at a regional or 135/91 and potentially get stuck there if it turns out I'd have been fine at Spirit.
greenflash1775@reddit
But are you going to make progress toward the goal of a legacy? If there’s no upgrade on the horizon then you’re just wasting time at Spirit when you could be getting PIC at a “worse” job that actually gets you closer to your goal. Worry about quality of life year 2 at a legacy.
ndem763@reddit
Sure, if I wanted to get to a legacy ASAP at any cost that's the route to take. But until I'm at risk of furlough I'm happy where I am. I wouldn't turn down a legacy offer and I'm still keeping everything updated, volunteering, etc. but I'm not going through all the trouble of training and commuting/moving for a worse job that I could potentially be stuck at longer than I'd like unless I have to. At my age/experience level I'm lucky to even be where I am now. If other people see taking the risk of going back to a regional as the better option than risking staying at Spirit, that's perfectly fine. But I at least want to get a better idea of what'll happen here before I prematurely bail.
greenflash1775@reddit
No legacy is hiring zero PIC. That was a brief period and it’s not coming back. If you never upgrade you’ll never get the job. Spirit has been poorly run for years. Anything you liked about your contract is probably gone. Why would you knowingly work under a concessionary contract?
ndem763@reddit
Again, for those whose ultimate goal is to go to a legacy, the PIC is important. I'll go that route if things don't work out here. But I'm not destroying my QOL to commute to reserve at a regional indefinitely, whose contract and commuting QOL is worse than any anticipated (unconfirmed) concessionary contract at an LCC I live in base for. There's no guarantee of going to a legacy even with PIC time so, again, that risk is greater to me at this point than the risk of staying put. If it comes to it and I have to go to a regional, of course I'll do what I need to do to get out ASAP and to another major, preferably a legacy.
PilotBurner44@reddit
Having been a street captain at 2 different airlines, it blows. Worse than an APU on fire. It would have sucked a little less had I lived in base instead of commuted half way across the country. But it still sucked hardcore. I ONLY got airport/hot reserve. That's it. No short call, definitely no longer call. So I sat around the shitty crew room for hours on end. And then inevitably, I'd get a call and have to fly to Podunk nowhere after 7 hours of airport reserve. Arriving to a bunch of pissed off, delayed passengers and a shit show where no one knows what's going on. Then I'd have a min-rest overnight, assuming they had changed the hotel under my name otherwise it would be a 45 minute ordeal (or longer) because my name and the hotel's sheet didn't match. Then it would be an early morning to fly back, to sit on airport reserve again. That was 19 days a month usually. Plus the commute which was almost always the day before/after. I got used and abused hard. I consider myself a pretty happy guy, but those were some dark days. Spent a lot of my time off sleeping and feeling sorry for myself, missed out on a ton of birthdays, holidays, anniversaries, and friend hangouts. It was considerably worse than the time around when I got (indefinitely) furloughed. Life was not happy for me. You obviously know your situation better than me (or anyone else), so you get to decide for yourself. If I could do it over again, I don't think I'd go back to my second street captain gig after COVID, where my timeframe there was unknown and could have been indefinite. It took years off my life I'm sure, and I got pretty lucky in the hiring boom. The street captains became few and far between after I got hired because other airlines started paying more, so I just dead-ended. Obviously Endeavor is a big regional, backed by Delta (not the shit hole that is United), so it's a slightly different story in that case. Regardless, your first 6 months-year are going to suck real hard. And if it's at all similar to United's "flow", you'll be looking at a 7-10 year sentence until you get to move up. If I were making your choice, I would take the gamble and stay at NK, with the hopes of things turning around, or then getting bought/merged with a not regional airline. That way when you have a sucky first year commuting, it'll at least be at a major of some sort. Plus I'm guessing you might have a better chance at getting on with a Major if you do get furloughed, as they usually have some sort of preferential hiring for that.
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
If you live in base at NK, you're most likely in either LAS or FLL (I know there are others, but still). That means you're in 2 markets that support a lot of 91 and 135 corporate jet flying and have flight training nearby. That means potential hustle work if you 1) have a current CFI ticket and 2) actually end up losing your job completely and can't get a legacy job. This is not such a bad gamble to take, as opposed to going to EDV to commute. Probably stick where you are and get hired by a legacy in a year or 2 when another big set of retirements opens up slots.
135tankerdriver@reddit
Not sure how old you are but if you’re younger you ever consider going guard/reserve? It might be a good hedge for a possible furlough? And you could Eventually use the. Guard/reserve to get some TPIC time.
LookoutBel0w@reddit
You’re above me so please leave
Excellent_Mirror2594@reddit
Name checks out lmao
AmericasTruth@reddit
Love the honesty and straight to the point 😂😂
joejohn816@reddit
Leave Spirit for a legacy/major. In your current position, I would not leave Spirit for a Captain slot at EDV
Basic_Common_9814@reddit
EDV is 100% owned by Delta. They are become the preferred pool for Delta to hire their first officers from.
joejohn816@reddit
I disagree. I know very very few people who Delta is hiring from EDV outside of the flow/propel. I know many people who are being hired from a separate wholly owned not associated with Delta. Delta can publish whatever they want but I personally believe their hiring practices are different.
Basic_Common_9814@reddit
My comments are from direct observations from within. IMHO, stay at Spirit versus go to Endeavor?… the answer is easy. The financials behind one versus the other and the upward climb for one versus the other is obvious. AND if the poster is asking the question… they probably already know the answer.
joejohn816@reddit
Are you in the hiring department or are you a line pilot? If you’re a line pilot, then you are just speculating like the rest of us.
There’s a running joke that the actual flow to Delta are the AA wholly owneds. EDV is definitely more stable than Spirit, but if OP wants to get on at Delta, or a different major, I believe they are much better off going directly from Spirit to there. Hopefully Spirit doesn’t go belly up before then. EDV is a sure fire way to get to Delta, but certainly one of the slowest. Not counting the QOL nosedive of being a plug captain on a NYC commute
0621Hertz@reddit
A true captain goes down with their ship
Qwyietman@reddit
🫡
Basic_Common_9814@reddit
Go to Endeavor. 100% owned by Delta. 4 years at EDV and will be sucked up into DAL. Spirit will likely come out of and survive Bankruptcy… most airlines have… yet when the firesale of assets at Spirit is evident, you gotta leave. A March class date at EDV is a bird in hand.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
My mentor I talked to (who is a long-time United CA)
Long time Legacy pilots do not make the best mentors. I would take the Endeavor job especially because you will upgrade right when you get there. That TPIC will be much more valuable for you then another 1000 hours of SIC on a 320. Plus Spirit is a huge wildcard right now. You should take advantage of this opportunity and diversify and improve your resume.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
Agreed. Anyone who either 1) didn't do regional jet, extended stay edition or 2) who did, but did it 20+ years ago is likely to be wildly out of touch with reality.
RemarkableScarcity8@reddit
Absolutely go to EDV if this whole “immediate captain upgrade” jargon is true. You’re looking at a 5 year captain upgrade into the phenom at a minimum if you even considered coming to where I’m at.
Anphsn@reddit
Damn ur salty always
RemarkableScarcity8@reddit
I went to netjets for the pro of making more money, and that’s held true. OP has mentioned that’s not important to them and that they’d rather be a captain. Therefore, no netjets. My statement does make me look grumpus tho
Anphsn@reddit
How are phenom upgrades that long
RemarkableScarcity8@reddit
Well there’s a 10 person phenom bid out right now that will almost certainly go to some here under two years.…but there’s 250 FO’s below me in the phenom. We ain’t doing 250+ phenom upgrades in the next 2 years
Brief-Focus-593@reddit
What is a reasonable upgrade timeline for phenom, challenger 350, and latitude?
RemarkableScarcity8@reddit
Phenom will be 2-3 years for anyone hired in 2023- early 2024. I have seen exactly 0 challenger 350 upgrades for my entire 2 years at netjets, so probably never… latitude hasn’t had an upgrade since March 2024. There are about 80 SIC’s over 2 years in the latitude right now.
greenflash1775@reddit
Probably. The only thing that’s going to get you to a legacy is the upgrade and PIC. Are you going to get that at Spirit? Is there a way to get the PIC you need to achieve your goal of a legacy with less impacts to QOL? Can you view those QOL changes as temporary on the path to the ultimate goal?
Field_Sweeper@reddit
As bad as spirit is for pax, I'd wonder if it's the same for their pilots.
Do you have to put a quarter in to the cockpit door to get in? Lmao.
Or do you have to bring your own toilet paper? Lol
pscan40@reddit
How long is the flow to Delta if you go to Edv?
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey guys/gals,
I just wanted to get an outside opinion before I made my final choice because I'm at a bit of a crossroads. Lately, I think all the news and information has been getting to me and want to get some clear opinions.
Background: Spirit FO, 1k+ turbine SIC, lives in base (unaffected by upcoming furloughs), with a CJO on the table from Endeavor (going in as FO w/ immediate upgrade to CA), No other CJO's at this time. Class date is March 2025. (Kalitta and Frontier told me TBNT). Endeavor is unwilling to push my class date past March so I have to make a decision soon.
Am I a fool to still stay at Spirit, reject the CJO, and see what happens? Even if that could mean I could end up on the street without a job? If I take the job with Endeavor, I am guaranteed to commute to NYC (really don't want to live there) and will be at the bottom of the seniority list for 3 years (or more if all the hiring stops). Pay DOES NOT matter much and the TPIC would be helpful in boosting my app at a legacy as I have none.
My mentor I talked to (who is a long-time United CA) has encouraged me to stay at Spirit and see what happens and I know commuting for a long time can really degrade your QOL and happiness over time. I was also considering NetJets/Avelo instead (Im aware I have no CJO for them). Just want to get some clarity from others and trying to make the best decision possible for myself. I know no one has the right answer but getting your guys' opinions definitely helps, thanks a lot!
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JDLovesTurk@reddit
I’m in the same boat as you (except a lot of TPIC and no apps out). I’m just riding it out. I think worst case scenario is we get bought by someone. But I don’t want to risk having to commute or move.
jewfro451@reddit
Really random but I live 5 mins away from where they filmed your username. The retired hospital is no longer there anymore.
Informal-Sentence217@reddit
You guys have been saying this for over a year. “No chance we’re declaring” “Spirit will be fine” “They won’t furlough” Now “No chance we go out of business” Hoping you can see the writing on the wall brother
JDLovesTurk@reddit
I haven’t said any of those things, brother.
Veritech-1@reddit
Thank you. I’ve heard so much copium coming off the line. At what point do you take a look around. The company lost $330 million in November.
GeneratedUserHandle@reddit
You won’t be bought, you will ch 7. Get hired by a legacy.
Anphsn@reddit
Didn’t spirit announce 200 employee layoffs today?
ThepilotGP@reddit
For cost cutting ya, which unfortunately helps save money which is what spirit needs
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Cost cutting meanwhile their CEO got a big bonus.
ThepilotGP@reddit
The board of directors gave him a retention bonus to stay for a year, which he has to pay back if he leaves early. As much as I think he doesn’t deserve it I can’t control the board of directors. His job as CEO is to make the company money, which he is (hopefully) doing by cutting unnecessary costs.
brucebrowde@reddit
He doesn't seem to be the person who will do a good job. I'm not sure what the logic of the board was.
thisistherubberduck@reddit
That was corporate staff as part of an 80MM reduction in spend including previously announced furloughs.
findquasar@reddit
The important thing is to look at what is happening vs. what is being said when translating corporatese, lest you too be caught up in a “big announcement on Friday” type of situation.
I don’t know enough about the size of Spirit’s training department to know whether or not to be concerned with their laying off instructors and training schedulers, so I’ll defer to those who know more than me to analyze the actual impact of this, but think about how that would impact the airline and what that says vs. “everything is fine” which is what CEOs are supposed to say.
Maybe it is fine. I don’t know
If they just ditched non-seniority list and everything is staffed enough, then fine. If it’s like, almost everyone, then maybe think about… why Spirit wouldn’t need to be doing training.
I’m always personally one for stability over comfort, especially when it’s temporary, and having an opportunity for TPIC in the current market, vs. being stagnant albeit at a better airline, might make the difference in your goals. At least the worst thing like to happen to you on the long term would be an eventual Delta flow. But the risks are the commute, being at the bottom of a new seniority list, etc.
So, when you pick apart the messaging more clearly, see where that gets you, and decide what you’re willing to risk.
Shinsf@reddit
Former training department guy. They got rid of I believe 5 out of 10 senior ground instructors in fll. These guys were mainly responsible for training UP TO CSI-8 after that it was up to the flight instructors (line pilots) with no training going on these guys essential just had to do recurrent which you don't need that many for.
As for scheduling same thing. I never like seeing people lose their job. But we are according to the CEO shrinking to profitability, there is no reason to think that wouldn't hit HQ just like the rest of us. We have furloghed pilots, sold aircraft and deferred orders. And not for nothing i've heard from more than one person that we had managers who got the job because they were on property when the job was created. The rumor of the assistant chief pilot getting fired was wrong he was reassigned to a different position (there was only 1) the big surprise to most was the Director getting the axe in the middle of a meeting.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
That sudden Outlook auto-reply tho'
Professional_Tea_415@reddit
Endeavor is a step back. If you get furloughed from spirit you can always get a job at a regional. I would stay to see what happens for now.
CulturalStick3405@reddit
Commuting To a regional in NYC. Reserve. Crashpad living in NY? Hard pass.
I’ve lived it, I wouldn’t want to live it again. Although I’m 50 now. It was an “experience”. Which I would say the only positive to the endeavor plan would be to check the box on the “I’m a real airline pilot” checklist.
Flyguy115@reddit
What I have learned from personal experience is if you are given an opportunity specifically in the current pilot job environment take it. Picture this right now you are on the Costa Concordia just hit ground, seems like the ship is still floating, but you’re wondering if you should evacuate? When the ship suddenly flips over into the ocean it may be too late.
NakedHiker7@reddit
I’d say you’d be an idiot if you left a job flying A320s for CRJs, even with a CA upgrade. You’re probably making more than you make as an EDV CA, and even if not, you’re living in base. Let’s face it, commuting sucks. Getting a non-rev seat is always iffy; I did it for several years and can’t count the number of times I got bumped at the last minute by a senior DL CA. Always the same guy, and he absolutely refused to sit in a FA jumpseat… the gate agents knew he was an AH but they couldn’t do anything about it. Yes, EDV could be a pipeline to DL, but NKV might get you there sooner, and you’d still be commuting. IMO, QOL is worth more. I recommend staying put.
saker631@reddit
Edv has PSC tho
minimums_landing@reddit
Depends what you prioritize. If you’re willing to gamble a little, you could stay at sprint to keep your place on the ladder. You can also spend more time searching for more CJOs, but you risk getting furloughed and getting knocked off the ladder in the future.
If you want to play it super safe you could go to endeavor, you will walk a couple links down the ladder but at least your still on it and your have an immediate Captain upgrade.
It depends on what is most important to you. Good luck, we’re all counting on you 🫡
febrileairplane@reddit
Leaving a ULCC for a regional is nuts. Even with an upgrade "immediately".
Stick it out and see what happens. Worst case is you'll end up at a regional anyways, but with more money pocketed.
Best case is Spirit lives on or is acquired and you keep your job, seniority, $$$$.
Leaving for a regional now is nuts nuts nuts.
flyindogtired@reddit
This guy gets. OP never worked at a regional and has no idea how good he’s had it at Spirit. He’s about to find out it seems.
You can spend a career at spirit and be happy. I wouldn’t want to try that at a regional.
saker631@reddit
Even if OP goes to edv he won’t experience the worst. Of all regionals I think endeavor has the best contract and treats their employees the “best”. Shiniest of the turds
aybaer@reddit
Netjets offered 0 CJO’s to spirit guys who got furloughed. Take that into consideration
lalopiloto13@reddit
Yeah man, a friend jumped ship from Spirit and is now at flight safety for initial at NetJets.
aybaer@reddit
~~Netjets offered 0 CJO’s to spirit guys who got furloughed. Take that into consideration~~
Apparently first round furlough guys did get hired. I don’t have faith in what I was told. Sorry
aybaer@reddit
~~Netjets offered 0 CJO’s to spirit guys who got furloughed. Take that into consideration~~
Apparently first round furlough guys did get hired. I don’t have faith in what I was told. Sorry
aybaer@reddit
~~Netjets offered 0 CJO’s to spirit guys who got furloughed. Take that into consideration~~
Apparently first round furlough guys did get hired. I don’t have any faith in what I was told now. Sorry
aybaer@reddit
~~Netjets offered 0 CJO’s to spirit guys who got furloughed. Take that into consideration~~
Apparently first round furlough guys did get hired. So I no longer have faith in what I was told. Sorry
aybaer@reddit
~~Netjets offered 0 CJO’s to spirit guys who got furloughed. Take that into consideration~~
Edit: spirit guys were hired over the summer. Sorry for the bad information
kaputt1669@reddit
Multiple first round Spirit furlough guys in my indoc class at NetJets over the summer.
Balthazar1@reddit
That’s definitely not true, at least for the first round of furloughs.
aybaer@reddit
You got a source for that? Last I heard directly from recruiting department was no spirit, and EJA is being even more selective on who they hire now
Balthazar1@reddit
Yes, myself and numerous others. Again this isn’t from the furloughs that take effect at the end of the month but the first round, so it is possible that is their current stance. I know a couple from this round who have interviewed but no offers. Seems weird to interview them though if there is a moratorium on hiring Spirit pilots.
Reputation_Many@reddit
So I’m getting furloughed at the end of the month. Id personally stay till you got a job where you want to be.
I got the tbnt with frontier the other day. Sucks. But regionals are awful.
Good luck with your choice.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
I’d stay
AceofdaBase@reddit
Stay
Opposite-Guide-2658@reddit
Random question. People like to use the term TPIC which means turbine PIC. So are we saying that as 121 TPIC? As in captain upgraded or any turbine PIC? 91/135 etc?
Ludicrous_speed77@reddit
TPIC can be any type of operations, but the airlines really put a lot of weight on part 121 TPIC. TPIC in a PC-12 or Beech 1900 is not the same as TPIC in a CRJ.
OtterVA@reddit
Unaffected by round 2 of furloughs… no commute…Would you be taking a voluntary furlough or resigning? Is your 401K vested?
Having gone from RJ commute to a legacy in base, I’d rather take a job at Walmart than commute to NYC at a regional.
I would not resign from Spirit in base to commute to an RJ. If you got furloughed… maybe.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
Oh yeah. OP, take a look at that vesting schedule before you go anywhere.
PullDoNotRotate@reddit
First, you aren't an idiot nor a fool. The place is a good aviation job ironically with horrible management beyond the Chief Pilot level (bunch of wankers in the C-suite for sure).
Commuting to RES to fly an RJ may eventually advance your career, but frankly I think you would need your head examined to push that button if you are not reasonably (as in, imminently) at risk of a furlough or a displacement to a commute anyway. Commuting to fly an RJ on reserve (!!!!!) would have a massively downward impact on your quality of life, and doing so will put your life outside of work into the shitter. There's a reason they've got to whore those positions out to direct-entry Captains. They're just as desperate as the applicants there.
Personally, I wouldn't do it in your shoes. If you're not on the chopping block, keep polishing your applications, find extra things you can do outside of the cockpit and see what happens. (And save money like you are about to be on the chopping block.) If you're going to leave, it should be for something better, and being an RJ captain isn't that.
azbrewcrew@reddit
No regional is ever safe no matter how much the mothership loves them. Always go where the paycheck matches the paint job on the fuselage. Not saying it would ever happen but never put it past Delta to whipsaw Endeavor against FFD Connection carriers
RastaFarva@reddit
The average new hire at UA has 1600 TPIC. There is not right answer to your question but TPIC (especially at a 121) is one of, if not the most, valuable item on your resume.
Accomplished_Rich618@reddit
Endeavor the market is horribly rn
RSALT3@reddit
I don’t think spirit is going anywhere. I would 100% stay put.
LostPilot517@reddit
Looking at my former SAVE stock... You have more confidence than I do.
In my opinion the brand is done, and the airline as is, is too. BUT they will likely be acquired, Spirit has basically no assets they lease everything, and high debt, but they do have gates and those gates are the most valuable asset they have IMHO. They do have some delivery slots, but those may not be needed by a buyer, however they could easily be sold to offset acquisition costs. An airline that wants to grow, needs those gates and most of the gates are in good markets.
I have a hypothesis who would be the most interested, but I would rather not discuss that publicly.
At this point, though if I were OP, I would keep my resume current, keep applying for that vertical move up. I would avoid a horizontal or vertical down. If you have success above, go. If not ride this out and see where you land as a pilot at Spirit.
RSALT3@reddit
Stock prices are primarily influenced by how investors perceive a company’s future profitability, risk and growth. It has less to do with the actual health of a company; on both ends of the spectrum.
I should rephrase my original comment. He won’t be out of a job. Spirit will right size or be bought. I don’t think they will completely liquidate.
Dry-Coast7599@reddit
Stay at NK. Commuting,to reserve, to fly an RJ? No thanks.
Shinsf@reddit
Right now we are playing Russian roulette and I'll give you my take as a spirit FO. This is my rational on how it affects me specifically.
First a couple things. One I'm a pretty senior fo sitting about #17 in base after all the downgrades. Obviously not commuting.
I'm also not the bread winner as I was lucky enough to bag a Doctor so I can be a bit riskier with my career.
OK so let's talk about the elephant in the room.
Liquidation. This is not an impossibility. Anyone who tells you otherwise is delusional. We all could very well get an email on a random Friday that all operations are suspended.
How would this affect you? Well let's talk about the current hiring situation. If you have no TPIC you will have a few thousand pilots automatically ahead of you in the hiring pool. Couple with economics issues in the country and this could lead to a long extended time with no callback unless you went to smaller airline. This is obviously the worst case scenario for us. I've got 5000 hours in the bus and 121 instruction time and even I'm not confidant in getting a call back during the initial months in case of liquidation.
With that out of the way let's talk about all the v other options on the table.
Mergers. We are officially in bankruptcy meaning we could essentially be purchased by anyone. I could make a decent case for any of the big 3 to purchase us but that would make this post a real wall of text. I could make a case for southwest and obviously I could make a case that frontier comes back. No one knows who it would be if anyone.
I came to the conclusion that regardless of who buys us, for myself I come out on top. I could lose 10% relative seniority and still sit 50% at any ALPA airline . Obviously if SWAPA or American purchased us that could be worse but unless we got stapled I still come out ahead seniority wise.
Then there is the fact that we are actually understaffed as an airline. The problem being the neo engines. Those are getting fixed but it takes time. Along with stagnation, we will see many captains leaving because like someone pointed out the says of getting hired at a legacy at 1500 are gone for the foreseeable future. If we manage to survive this beating you will see good growth in seniority. Yes if this is what happens we are talking years not months but let's put this in perspective.
Anyone in this industry now than 5 years knows full well the legacy views on furloughs. When you have the ceo of united coming out and saying we built an airline to never furlough again and watch them hire like crazy but get no aircraft delivery's it makes you wonder how long that's sustainable for them.
I've had this conversation with my wife and we opted to stay and ride the wave because I'd rather take the risk that I end up like a northwest pilot than a TWA pilot. But again my wife makes more than most captains.
I can sit in the right seat will QOL my entire career because I truly DGAF about the left seat. I'd rather have time with my kid than. Who knows maybe this bites me in the ass in 20 years but if I'm starting over at a new airline I'd rather do it with my family intact vs my kid hating me because dad was never there. These are my views for my situation.
Also I typed this on my phone so use your context clues if something doesn't make sense
Historical_Look2188@reddit
I’m curious what you mean by “the legacies view on furloughs” above. It appears they’ve realized how incredibly expensive it is to furlough/recall vs just building a conservative financial balance sheet to stave off furloughs a good while unless it’s a true “black swan” economic event. But yes, absolutely, no one knows what the macroeconomic world holds.
I would disagree with the characterization that United is just blindly hiring like mad but not having jets to put pilots in. Aircraft deliveries have slowed but are still happening. Kirby has explicitly discussed modulating hiring / training to be steady and better match a lowered output from Boeing vs huge spikes of hiring every so often.
As pilots we’re all in this together, so I say respectfully, there’s a reason UA and DL are making the vast majority of the entire profit in the industry right now. United mgmt is not just saying “send it, we’ll figure it out later 🤪” with hiring.
Shinsf@reddit
I never said they were blindly hiring. Yes UA is getting deliveries, but the bigger question is what % of deliveries are you getting that you expected. UA has had an aggressive stance vs DL more conservative. It wouldn't take another black swan event for everything to have grave impacts. We have a new administration with very different economic plans vs the previous. Is this a good or bad thing? Only time will tell.
It's not unique to United, look at pretty much everyone, reduction or ceasing all hiring, unpaid leave, reduction in hiring numbers are going on everywhere.
Historical_Look2188@reddit
True, it’s been an industry-wide trend the last year or so. However is that in response to economic reasons, or just modulating hiring to reflect slower deliveries? The retirements are still going to happen, and it appears (barring big economic changes) that the growth is still desired, for the big-3/4 at least. The ULCC business model seems to be slowly failing so for those carriers perhaps that’s why.
My original question - what did you mean about furloughs? It seems the lesson of covid was airlines realizing it’s incredibly expensive to furlough and retrain so they’d rather not unless things are really bad, vs the “just casually hire til you fire” way you hear it described sometimes.
Shinsf@reddit
During covid united took i think 7 or 8 billion from the government they weren't legally allowed to furlough.
In comparison spirit received 330 million.
While UA is a bigger airline it's not 22 times larger. They allowed early retirements and hired as much as possible from spirit and jet blue. You can say the market is failing which who knows maybe it is, but to not look at government interference along with the engine issues from Pratt would be a mistake.
justarjguy@reddit
Just want to point something out, UA significantly paired back hiring because of the delivery slowdown. UA is still taking new airplanes every week. So no, UA isn’t hiring for no reason. Also 4-500 people are retiring a year and the company has a profitable business model second only to DL in the industry rn.
flagsfly@reddit
Yeah, 61 airplanes this year only constrained by OEM volume is not nothing. UA might actually be forced to take the A350s they have on order in the next couple of years as well due to the RR engine contract. Lots of growth for UA on the horizon.
justarjguy@reddit
Definitely not nothing. Over a quarter of the size of the Spirit fleet.
SpiritFlight404@reddit
If you can keep flying and building bus time. Stick it out. Christie says they’re right sizing. This is temporary and may result in being picked up by another destination carrier. Bus time is still valuable even without PIC time you’re more likely to get picked up By a legacy or another major down the road. Spirit is making a turn around according to their SEC filings and internal Docs. I wouldn’t dip.
Informal-Sentence217@reddit
Christie is a career criminal and serial liar and you still have faith in him
HighFive2022@reddit
My 2 cents... Basically, what everyone else said. Living in base is a huge boost to QOL! Don't commute to sit reserve at a regional. You'll be miserable. Keep your apps updated at your legacy of choice, and hopefully, they will call sooner rather than later. Good luck, I'm truly sorry to hear about the furloughs, BTDT.
Hefty_Heavy@reddit
You don't know if you made the right choice until the very end. I would encourage you to stop comparing if you have made up your mind whatever way you decide to go, it will just end up making you feel unhappy.
changgerz@reddit
If you go to 9E as a DEC, I hope you like New York
Intelligent_Tie_655@reddit (OP)
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for giving input, I really appreciate everyone's insight one way or another.
ASELtoATP@reddit
Ask ten pilots and you’ll get twelve opinions! I left NK a year ago and have commuted to reserve all year (I knew three moves this year was coming so it was a known suck factor that I chose with eyes wide open).
All that being said, commuting to reserve at a regional sounds pretty awful. Taking a pay cut to commute vs. living in base as a line holder might actually be worse for your long term job security since you’re going to fly more and can pick up any flying that comes your way living local.
Also factor in a three month gap while you’re in training and that’s even more time before you get to 4000 total time. I’d just stick it out and bankroll cash in the event a furlough does end up coming your way. Given that legacies are scooping up NK CAs, you might even see some seniority progression happening in the meantime, keeping you just a little more secure all while flying 75-80 hours a month.
Autoslats@reddit
Personally, I wouldn’t go to the bottom of a regional airline seniority list willingly.
Bravodelta13@reddit
If you want to go to a major, then you still need PIC to be competitive. You have the opportunity to advance your career. OTOH, If you’re cool hanging out letting a bankruptcy judge determine your QOL/pay/career trajectory, then by all means, stay. Maybe ask your buddy what it was like after 9/11 where everybody’s work rules got decimated. That’s a very real scenario for Spirit rn.
TweetGuyB@reddit
Stick it out at Spirit. If you were a commuter there I would tell you to go Envdeavor, but that New York commute will be a BITCH after you are used to living in base.
dopexile@reddit
NYC? You'll be on food stamps
funnynoises@reddit
Commuting to reserve to be the plug in NYC? Hell no.
StangViper88@reddit
Have you ever flown a CRJ? Going DEC (more or less) is always a gamble too. Especially going from an airbus to CRJ. Historically, failure and washout rates are high for direct entry captains.
Intelligent_Tie_655@reddit (OP)
Yes, I was at a regional and flew the CRJ before Spirit.
TRex_N_Truex@reddit
Here’s the thing, you can ride it out at spirit but what’s the future if they come out of this? In five years you’re not looking at much growth given the circumstances. An RJ job is a step back but does it toss you closer to your goals? Do you just want more SIC time for more pay?
BrosenkranzKeef@reddit
I’d stay. Regionals are dog shit, you’re going to hate life even if it’s temporary. I’d rather throw bags than deal with that shit.
I’d apply to FJ and NJ and see what happens. The work is hard but they treat us well.
prex10@reddit
I'd stick it out. If your TT is approaching the 3000 range or is already over that, you'll fine if the pink slip does come.
more-right-rudder@reddit
In this case is TT total time or turbine time?
prex10@reddit
Total time plays a big factor in hiring.
Informal-Sentence217@reddit
Yes
Impressive-Ad3348@reddit
As a Delta Pilot Instructor for going on 35 years, a great positive attitude is a must no matter the lumps and bumps you have taken, or your background. Best wishes to you all!
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
I’d say, stay at Spirit and see what happens. Endeavor will want you as a Direct Entry Captain anytime. Also, You’d be eligible to flow to DL after 2 years as Captain. - Current 9E Captain about to Flow
prex10@reddit
You're still flowing in seniority order. No ones flowing after 2 years.
He's looking at 6-7
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
This is just not correct 😂🤦🏻♂️
prex10@reddit
The amount of people I ran into when I was at 9E that had way off flow info was also just baffling and I'm saying that as a person was a ALPA volunteer there.
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
Let me know when you actually read the damn thing 😂 youre ALPA friend source doesn’t check out when half the reps dont know what CAP is or how it works.
prex10@reddit
I never said it was a "friend". I'm saying I, me was the ALPA person.
So yeah, I read the thing.
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
Glad to know we dont vet or educate our volunteers 🤙🏼
prex10@reddit
Go volunteer then.
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
Go educate yourself then and stop spreading uninformed opinions
kscessnadriver@reddit
Pro tip, keep that attitude when you flow, and things are going to go really well for you
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
You got it hoss 😘
prex10@reddit
People love flying with me you fucking dipshit.
-probably them.
prex10@reddit
I read the CAP. Just making sure everyone knows it's unlikely to be a 2 year flow.
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
Literally nobody said that, you claimed it to be 6-7, which for OP as a DEC, is just not true! You’re the idiot here dude
prex10@reddit
And you keep insinuating that he's probably going to flow in 2.
That's just a loaded statement.
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
How did this insinuate a 2 year flow?
“Flow Pilots are all off property by the end of the year. CAP will begin late fall. The only holdback after 2 years of Captain is the amount of Eligible CAP pilots that have entered the transfer portal, which should alleviate after the initial first few months. You are correct that its the pool of CAP goes by seniority but, theres only a few months of eligible one right now. What that looks like in 2 years, who knows.” you fuck 😂
prex10@reddit
So what is your argument then when I said it's likely to be longer than 2 years?
So do you have anything else to say beyond personal attacks?
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
So you don’t know what the word eligible means then? Youre part of the problem here.
prex10@reddit
No not really.
You said he's eligible to flow after 2. And then nothing else. Peak marketing tactic on your part.
jfanderson05@reddit
There's a huge asterisk on that. You may be eligible for flow, but you won't flow until your seniority number allows you to. Which is behind all of the flow pilots on property. Then, behind all the CAP pilots seniority to you who are also eligible.
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
No asterisk. Flow Pilots are all off property by the end of the year. CAP will begin late fall. The only holdback after 2 years of Captain is the amount of Eligible CAP pilots that have entered the transfer portal, which should alleviate after the initial first few months. You are correct that its the pool of CAP goes by seniority but, theres only a few months of eligible one right now. What that looks like in 2 years, who knows.
jfanderson05@reddit
That's an asterisk lol
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
The blatant misunderstanding of how the programs work is not, youre just misinformed
jfanderson05@reddit
For people making life altering decisions like leaving one employer for another, this information is important to them. You admit that you don't know what the CAP program "flow" is going to look like in 2 years, so why do you consider this not pertinent information?
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
You cant predict 6 months let alone 2 years worth of pilot decisions you dope. The program remains the same, how people choose to utilize the program isn’t. There is a way to give this guy a worst case scenario flow date, but that requires information I can’t get to while im driving. EVEN then, the fate of DL hiring dictates CAP flow. Let me know when you can predict that.
Joshua528@reddit
This needs to be talked about more, surprising how many guys don’t understand that in my experience.
Awkward_Yak_2266@reddit
It doesn’t help that the company and recruiters conveniently leave out how the program works. Thats why theres so much confusion on this
jfanderson05@reddit
For a while, the recruitment team led a lot of people to believe they'd be at Delta in just 2 years. There was a period of time when it was true because nobody under cap was a CA, and you could slide in out of seniority order that window closed super fast and they are still selling the CAP program like a flow program. When in reality the union was unable to secure the same flow program for those pilots that the pilots on property received when the original flow agreement was signed.
Right-Suggestion-667@reddit
Eligible to enter the flow program to flow in seniority order of entering that program ***
Awkward_Algae_9631@reddit
I’d say stay at Spirit. I would never give up living in base to commute at a regional. Maybe you lose your job, but I’d roll that dice every time if it were me.
HotRecommendation283@reddit
121 TPIC vs 121 SIC
Seems like the trip to endeavor may not be fun, but set you up really well to get to a legacy.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
!remindme 20 years
cmmurf@reddit
Fun game. Will you get the reminder? An easier question is whether Reddit will exist in 20 years, but still not that easy.
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Boeinggoing737@reddit
I think you stay and ride it out. The financials of spirit are still horrible, I think they will shrink more down to 125ish planes, and it will stagnate with more furloughs coming BUT going to a regional has a lot of risks too. Sure TPIC will make you more attractive to a legacy but I would say that getting involved with Alpa work would also get you closer. Stay in base, get more bus time, live a better life while you persue great jobs. If you go to a regional and ding the checkride or have an illness that messes with your delta chances or you go out on a regional Ltd plan … this career is a shitshow.
Spirit might pull a rabbit out of its hat or private equity might buy it. Private equity would shrink it drastically but probably right the ship. The pilots leaving and better management could mean you get better seniority at a more stable company when it all shakes out in a few years. I think those odds are over 50% for private equity. The merger with frontier doesn’t seem likely.
FyrPilot86@reddit
Friendly outsider perspective here. Florida bound travelers choosing different air carriers; because of media coverage and their perceived risk of Spirit cancellations. More revenue from one time customers lost.
legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit
Just know that turning down a CJO could mean black listing. I know OO black lists if you turn down a CJO.
Pilot_Dad@reddit
IMO.... TPIC > TSIC time, doesn't matter if it's on the bus or the lawn dart legacies aren't going to care.
Joe_Littles@reddit
I would not take a step backwards to commute indefinitely (years) if you’re not furloughed.
If it was me, and I was eligible to upgrade, I’d stay put until I’m furloughed and forced to move. Spirit isn’t going to disappear unless acquired.
Necessary_Topic_1656@reddit
You could take a voluntary furlough and retain your place on the seniority list.
That’s what a lot of the spirit pilots are doing.
Work at their new place. Keep the option to go back to spirit. Maybe. Or maybe not.
VolubleWanderer@reddit
Does voluntary furlough give you the same rehire/get new job benefits as regular furlough? Air whiskey pilots are asking.
ndem763@reddit
It should be something you have to bid for. So if you want to do it voluntarily, just put it at the top of your bid. If you want to try to keep your job, put it at the bottom. There's no difference in the result. There are sometimes options beyond furlough that are voluntary and are treated differently, like a leave for a set amount of time that allows you to temporarily fly for another operator.
VolubleWanderer@reddit
Ah okay I’ll anticipate that. Thanks. I didn’t get a furlough option from trans states or express jet cause I wasn’t there for a year at either.
thisistherubberduck@reddit
Can't take a voluntary at this point only an outside flying leave
TheRauk@reddit
All that matters in professional aviation is seniority. Unless you are fundamentally convinced Spirit is going to liquidate I would stick it out unless your number is low.
Start building a war chest.
PartlySunny10@reddit
No one here knows. There is no crystal ball. I know many who were adamant people should leave the regionals and go to spirit/etc to try and get ahead just a year or two ago. Now some of the same people will tell you very confidently that spirit is finished and will simply vanish.
There are pros and cons to both decisions, you have to look and see what kind of risk is more worth it to you. Many airlines have filed chapter 11 and come back with an acquisition that resulted in a net gain for the group over the (very) long term. There will undoubtedly be short-medium term pain at the minimum. At the same time it is also possible that spirit does not recover. No one knows what will happen.
Acceptable_Concern23@reddit
Same situation as you man. CJO at a regional with a little less time than you, but I’m going to stick it out and see what happens. With all of these senior guys leaving it could benefit us in the long run. That being said spirit needs to stay in business lol.
SomethingStuckinEye@reddit
Yeah you're an idiot if you don't leave a failing airline that's about to be in the history books in the coming months
Ornery-Ad-2248@reddit
Look at mesaba,compass, comair,
But that’s me
No one ones if anyone made the right choices till your 65
Ornery-Ad-2248@reddit
Yeah I’d bail