An Israeli lawyer has filed submissions to the international criminal court (ICC) alleging incitement to genocide against Palestinians by eight Israeli officials, including President Isaac Herzog and prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Posted by ODHH@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 136 comments
RingAny1978@reddit
Read that again - whether genocide or intent to commit genocide has been proven. He wants to say it can be a crime to do something that the accuser thinks could be interpreted as intent, without proving intent, and when the predicate crime has not been charged or proven.
apistograma@reddit
Well, of course it's up to the interpretation of the courts. Do you think you need a literal confession of the accused to charge them for a crime.
"Yes my honor I wanted to genocide those people. I'm in my full mentally capacities and nothing that I'm saying can be misinterpreted. I'm absolutely guilty"
Caffeywasright@reddit
That’s not how the court works. Intent is everything. If you broke into someone else’s house because you thought you were breaking into your own after you forgot the key an actual defense would be that you never intended to commit a crime. That would be a legitimate legal defense.
Then it’s up to the court to decide whether you should have known or not, or whether it is transfer to expect you should have known.
But there is a reason why you don’t get charged for accidents. Running over someone in an accident isn’t a crime, even if it is the exact same act as intentionally running over someone.
apistograma@reddit
You can absolutely charge someone for neglectful acts that kill other people, what are you even saying.
__El_Presidente__@reddit
Tbf then it wouldn't be genocide.
apistograma@reddit
Well but the point is that you can trial someone for less than genocide.
It's genocide though
__El_Presidente__@reddit
What I'm trying to say is that for the specific crime of genocide you need to prove that those charged wanted the destruction of the group as a result of their actions. I agree that it's genocide but you need to prove that intentionality.
apistograma@reddit
https://youtube.com/shorts/-hIW0inBUq8?si=GaZCMawI_IJjbgi8
Is that genocidal intent in your eyes? Human animals
__El_Presidente__@reddit
Yes it is but then we aren't talking about neglectful acts.
You said that Israel could still be charged due to neglect of it's obligations towards the Palestinians and that's true (I don't know the specifics rn tho), but that's different from genocide. For it to be genocide you need to prove that said neglect wasn't, well, neglectful, but intentioned, and then we would be talking about genocide and not those neglectful acts.
Law is complicated.
For what is worth, in my opinion it's a clear case of genocide. A conviction still depends on what evidence the court accepts and how they interpret it though.
Hanzel_G@reddit
Who are the human animals?
apistograma@reddit
No one is a human animal. Dehumanization is not something civilized people do.
Do I assume you think some humans are animals? That's a really interesting position coming from a Jew, don't you think
Hanzel_G@reddit
Anything else you're gonna assume about me? What does my religion has to do with that?
I don't believe in god, what does that makes me? Still a jew?
Pathetic...
apistograma@reddit
What
Are you implying Jews that don't believe in Judaism aren't Jewish?
Hanzel_G@reddit
I'm implying that not all jews fit into stereotypical view you've got. Not all jews are the same and you shouldn't generalize people just because you see the Israeli flag.
Hazeium@reddit
Ah shit classic derailing.
Yeah Israel is causing a genocide, they have created modern Ghettos and people are literally starving to death due to supply lines being cut off or humanitarian aid workers being killed on route (oops!).
Oh and let's not forget that those that do get caught, are jailed and raped. What a time to be alive for the Palestinians, who are dehumanized and called animals...
Hey wait a minute... that sounds familiar, didn't the Nazis also dehumanize Jews? Ah yes they did, I guess that's where you Zionists got it from, huh?
Hanzel_G@reddit
Bold claim , now evidence...
Evidence?
Oh! Like this one ? Yeah I guess mistakes do happen..
If true, perpetrators should be punished... So show some evidence.
Who did that? Definitely against that...
Who's a zionist? Zionism is over... Ended... We're in post zionism now....
And, there are tow types of people who still use that term, friends of Israel and antisemites... And you're no friend of Israel right? Already scored a point de valuing the holocaust...
If not Israel where should I go to?
WistopherWalken@reddit
Y'all Israelis are sick.
Hazeium@reddit
Okay buddy, get ready for some facts. Take off the blindfold.
If you're actually Israeli, denying Gaza is a ghetto is the ultimate irony. You know it just as well as I.
Humanitarian workers getting killed, feeding the starving: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68711282
Women and CHILDREN being raped by IDF officers: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against
Dehumanization of Palestinians: https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/12/1145132
Now I will say this again. I have nothing against Jews except those who incite this type of violence, who are just as bad as the bloodthirsty Russians who want land (kind of like the settlers huh?).
Well I hope you get informed a little bit, but let's be honest you only see what you want to see.
Hanzel_G@reddit
Hazeium@reddit
Completely ignore everything. Nice.
I hope you can live with yourself.
Hanzel_G@reddit
You blocmed me?
Hazeium@reddit
Lol, no. I don't run away from genocide sympathizers.
Hanzel_G@reddit
Strange... Got this notification to my mail and I don't see it on reddit.. Haven't deleted it by any chance? What comes after the "then look at..."?
"Brother I answered every single one of your bullshit derailing with an article and facts. Yes, you guys are 21st century Nazis. If you can't see that from the way the world reacts to you, then look at..."
Just making sure...
Hanzel_G@reddit
Comply dodging the question... Telling...
Now.. You gonna answer?
Hazeium@reddit
Brother I answered every single one of your bullshit derailing with an article and facts.
Yes, you guys are 21st century Nazis. If you can't see that from the way the world reacts to you, then look at the facts in the articles
You are defending a genocide and the 2nd holocaust. Just because they're not Jews doesn't mean it can't be called another holocaust. Get over yourself.
Caffeywasright@reddit
The key works there being “neglectful acts”. You can charge someone if they did something where a reasonable person could have conceived doing so would lead to that outcome.
Like if you drive drunk and kill someone. Then you can be charged with vehicular homicide, because any person with a sound mind understands that being drunk and driving puts you in a position where you should know that you aren’t able to safely navigate a car and therefore might kill someone. But that is implied intent. You should know better so therefore getting behind the wheel knowing people could die as a result for your actions.
apistograma@reddit
So which one is it? Is Israel genocidal, should they be charged for commiting genocide "accidentally", or is Israel clinically insane?
Caffeywasright@reddit
Get a grip buddy. I have no idea whether Israel has broken some legal definition of genocide but as far as a I know the international courts has declined to bring charges against Israeli leadership so far so far evidence suggest they haven’t. But I don’t know and neither do you.
I was simply pointing out that saying you can prosecute someone without proving intent is insane and violates every legal standard we have in every developed country in the world
apistograma@reddit
Would you include Israel when talking about legal standards in the developed world?
What would you make about "wanting to make Gaza uninhabitable" as stated by Gallant? Is that genocidal intent?
Caffeywasright@reddit
Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has legal standards even close to the developed world.
“Wanting to make Gaza uninhabitable as stated by Gallant”
Source your claims when you make them.
What would you make of the chant “from river to the sea”? Should we charge everyone who yelled that with genocide?
Drab_Majesty@reddit
It's shit like this that demonstrates the terminal brain rot of a boot licker. Categorizing and dichtomizing countries based on colonialist and racist values.
Caffeywasright@reddit
Fine. Provide me with another middle eastern country that has a justice system operates at close to the level of a developed country and then I’ll eat my words.
I’ll wait.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
You don't even realize your own bigotry lmao. Do you consider courts based on religion as part of a "developed" judicial system?
Caffeywasright@reddit
So you can’t is what you are saying? And I am sure bigotry to you is anyone and anything you disagree with. But it’s not to the rest of us, you get that right?
And what do you mean “based on religion”? A ton of modern morality is based on religion. Tons of laws we have today is based on old religious morality or at least morality that we ascribe to region. Realistically that morality has probably existed for eons. As long as there have been people.
However generally I consider a good justice system as one that has fair laws that respect the sanctity and rights of the humans put in front of it. And a justice system that is the same to whoever is put in front of it.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
oh so you don't even understand Israel's judicial system, you are just larping.
Caffeywasright@reddit
Just when i thought you guys couldn’t get more pathetic there is this.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
"you guys" like I am part of a monolith...
You are beyond help, brother.
Caffeywasright@reddit
You are part of a monolith
Drab_Majesty@reddit
is the monolith in the room talking to you now, brother?
Caffeywasright@reddit
Projection at its finest little buddy.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Why are you dodging the question?
Caffeywasright@reddit
You on crack?
Ropetrick6@reddit
No, unlike you.
apistograma@reddit
If you keep prodding him he'll say your mother is a human animal. At least that's what he just did to me.
I don't mind because it's clear he lost his marbles but just so you know which kind of person you're dealing with
iwantsomeofthis@reddit
LAMO, how can you?
https://www.google.com/search?q=women+sentenced+to+death+islam&rlz=1C1GCFA_enUS1128US1128&oq=women+sentenced+to+death+islam&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDM2NDhqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
top results... lets look shall we?
'blasphemy' + woman activist .... so no. they are resoundingly NOT developed. hope this TED talk helped.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
so by your own logic Israel's judicial system isn't developed, thank you for following my lead.
iwantsomeofthis@reddit
#owned!
now all those women who can read, write, vote, and not get murdered for existing in Israel will weep with me.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
☝️what happens to your brain when you deep throat hasbara
iwantsomeofthis@reddit
☝️what happens to your brain when you Moral Relativism > Human Rights....
apistograma@reddit
Are you telling me that you're speaking about the ICC trial and you don't know about Gallant saying that? It's not an obscure piece of info.
"From the river to the sea" is a chant that was used by Zionists who claimed the entirety of the British Palestine area, so you should be more specific. Are you referring to people who say that in support for Palestine? Those for Israel? Both?
I think that it only makes sense to accuse of genocidal intent people who have lead or participated in the killings of tens of thousands of people. So claiming that a rando in NYC should be trialed by the ICC is a bit ridiculous yeah.
The former Hamas leader had also a warrant, which is something that Zionists conveniently ignore when claiming there's an antisemitic intent. But Israel killed the dude so he can't be trialed. .
So...
Caffeywasright@reddit
All these claims and no sources how dull.
apistograma@reddit
https://youtube.com/shorts/-hIW0inBUq8?si=GaZCMawI_IJjbgi8
"We're fighting against human animals"
I guess TRT, the Turkish Public TV is antisemitic and they also have the best AI deep faking technology in the planet.
Caffeywasright@reddit
This video is a source of not a single thing you claimed in your last comment.
apistograma@reddit
Dude, how much time are you going to make me waste reaching for sources of stuff you should already know if you're going to defend Israel.
"Israel hasn't committed genocide"
"Yes it has. They have done X, Y and Z"
"I'm ignorant in these issues. Show me the sources"
If you're that ignorant about basic elements of the Israeli narrative over more than an entire year, how can you defend Israel? You yourself are confessing you know nothing.
Caffeywasright@reddit
Well I am assuming since you are fucking claiming tons of stuff you have some sort of idea where you got this from? That would be the very lowest of floors for checking information.
You being unwilling makes your whole belief system pointless nonsense doesn’t it?
Like you state stuff like they are unequivocally true like “the river to the sea was a chant used by the Zionist”
which just isn’t true or even remotely close to it. It’s true that there a tiny minority of people that claim this was used first by people who didn’t believe in the original belief of Zionist and wanted to focus on taking over all of Palestine, but there is no proof of this. The first place this phrase was officially used was in a PLO party program from the 60’s.
All of this information is readily available and completely objective.
So your obvious lying necessities you have to source your stuff to show there is actually something of value in your beliefs instead of it just being the misguided drivel of person of low intelligence.
apistograma@reddit
So you're saying you need sources for the claims that there's significant public support in Israel to allow their soldiers to rape prisoners.
If you need a source for that it's clear you know nothing about Israel since this was hot news for weeks. Thus you can't talk about Israel. The reality is that you probably know about it and feign ignorance.
Anyway, you're ignoring the source I provided you of Gallant saying they'll cut water electricity food everything because they're fighting human animals. Why is that?
The answer is simple: because you never had any intention to confront the accusations. You just want to weasel out. That's what your people do.
Caffeywasright@reddit
There is no sources here. Did you forget to add them?
apistograma@reddit
Well I have already shown you a pretty damning source. You could start by this one before asking me to show you more.
https://youtube.com/shorts/-hIW0inBUq8?si=GaZCMawI_IJjbgi8
It's almost your entire strategy is derailing the conversation and never having to address any accusations. Lawyer behaviour
Caffeywasright@reddit
Unlike you I have no “strategy” lol.
You have shown me a video of high ranking Israeli saying some terrible shit. That is deplorable. But it’s not proof of anything.
I’ll ask you again. Do you think we should charge everyone in the world who shouted “from the river to the sea” with genocide? Because that is also “inciting” a genocide.
apistograma@reddit
Lol you think Gallant wasn't a high ranking Israeli?
I thought you were pretending to know nothing but it turns out you do really know nothing
Caffeywasright@reddit
Ignoring my question and misreading my comment.
Come on man. I know you are getting paid but you have to be better.
apistograma@reddit
What's a human animal?
Caffeywasright@reddit
I’m guessing your mother.
But that’s neither here nor there.
apistograma@reddit
Wow
I must have really gotten into your nerves. I assumed you'd be smarter than that.
Well here it goes all your previous arguments and pretending to be civilized. To the gutter.
Caffeywasright@reddit
After asking for sources for the fifth time and you still not being able to provide a single one, I concluded you were pretty worthless for a debate.
So when you teed me up so beautifully i couldn’t resists. Not like I was losing anything was I? Reddit is full of idiots making baseless claims they can’t support.
apistograma@reddit
You lashed because you're irrational and your cultist relationship with Zionist has arrested your psychological development. Now you're trying to hide this
big_cock_lach@reddit
You’re arguing with bots, look at the account age. Just downvote and ignore them, they get paid for each response you give them so if you want to hurt them, ignore them.
Caffeywasright@reddit
Lmao go see a shrink buddy. You really need it.
Hanzel_G@reddit
Who is the human animal?
apistograma@reddit
Well you're from Israel. Did anyone ask Galant in your country?
apistograma@reddit
Downvote and leave now that you have absolutely no argument? Just as I expected from a Zionist. Flee if you wish that what your people do when cornered
Caffeywasright@reddit
You on drugs or something?
apistograma@reddit
We certainly have different concepts of pathetic considering you're the one spending their time mudding the waters to support a genocide.
dgradius@reddit
I don’t think you can make a claim about the sanity of an entire country, but it could well be argued that the current government of Israel, specifically the 37th government of Israel as led by Benjamin Netanyahu is on occasion behaving irrationally.
apistograma@reddit
Are you competing for the Understatement Awards 2025?
Xvi_G@reddit
Hamas, a recognized political party and the governing agency of Gaza, spent the last 15+ years turning the entirety of the strip into a militarized entity and forced residential neighborhoods and populated areas into becoming tools of war. They then enacted casus belli against a militarily-superior entity AND brought hostages back into that civilian region
Assuming you don't think they are insane, and are acting with intent, would the generally-safe assumption that Israeli retaliation would result in substantial loss of life to Palestinian civilians (related to previously stated factors) then similarly imply that Hamas could be charged with genocide against the people of Gaza?
Citizenshoop@reddit
If you make a criminal threat, its is still a crime independent of whether you intend to act on it. There are two layers of intent present: the intent to make the criminal threat and the intent to commit the acts present in the threat.
Incitement is the same. The crime is the incitement, so the intent that matters is the intent to incite, not the intent to follow up on the statements because the statements are, themselves, a criminal act.
Caffeywasright@reddit
No offense but this is just word cleaving at this point.
This is all contextual. Making a threat you don’t intend on following through on is only a crime if you intend for it to intimidate or cause fear.
Threats that don’t have either of those things aren’t criminal.
This is the literal definition of what I am talking about. Your intention when making the threat decides if it is punished. If you are threatening someone with a beating you will receive one punishment if you actually intended to beat them, one if you intended to terrorize someone or intimidate and you may receive no punishment if you didn’t intend to do either of those things but simply responded to something in anger.
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Neither intent nor motive matter if you harass or make terroristic threats. You're getting arrested regardless.
Caffeywasright@reddit
The lever of intelligence in here is approaching sub-human.
Yes this is what I am saying. If you make threats with the intent to terrorise that is illegal. But then that is your intent, and you will be punished accordingly.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Considering the fact that you can't even spell "level" correctly, you should probably look into a mirror before commenting.
Caffeywasright@reddit
Yes me missing an autocorrected word is the same as multiple people not understanding the extremely simple concept that intend is what is punished by the justice system not the act, despite this being explained 50 times at this point.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You are pretty clearly demonstrating that sub-human intellect of yours.
kas-sol@reddit
No, it is still illegal to make a threat even if you don't intend to actually carry it out.
Caffeywasright@reddit
It’s illegal if your intention is to intimidate or frighten the other person, even if you don’t intend to carry it out.
But that’s because it’s illegal ton intimidate, so you are still being charged with your intention not your action.
kas-sol@reddit
It doesn't matter what your motivation for making a terror threat is, it's still an illegal act. Proclaiming that it's just a prank and you never intended to scare anyone for real isn't going to make a bomb threat any less illegal.
Blind_Slug@reddit
Israel supporters just cannot stop calling other people sub-human. It's the calling card of the Zionist.
Citizenshoop@reddit
That last paragraph is literally just wrong. In all 3 cases you have committed an act of criminal threat and can be convicted of the exact same crime.
Mantequilla50@reddit
That doesn't apply to mass murder, my man. The dead don't care what your intent was
AceofToons@reddit
ok, let's look at Homicide. Murder vs Manslaughter, which one is charged and subsequently which one a person is convicted with is about intent, the prosecution is required to establish intent, but doesn't have to get someone to confess to intent.
That said it's been made clear time and time again that they don't plan on stopping until every Palestinian is either dead or leaves their own country.
It should be pretty easy to establish intent here, because of public statements.
Caffeywasright@reddit
Should we arrest every person for genocide who ever yelled the words “from the river to the sea”? In your opinion? Should we arrest them for genocide?
pimmen89@reddit
This is where the means come into play. If I shout ”someone should kill your mother!” after she cut me off in traffic, that’s not incitement. If a mafia boss tells their henchman ”you know, someone should kill that woman” that would likely be prosecuted as incitment or conspiracy.
That’s why Israeli officials, with actual political power, are being named in the filing.
Mantequilla50@reddit
That doesn't apply to mass murder at all.
reddit4ne@reddit
If you're having problems getting your head around this, just replace the word genocide with terrorism. Can I go around inciting people to commit terrorist acts?
Nope.
Does it matter that my intent to actually partake in a act has not been proven?
Nope. Does it matter that a terrorist act has not taken place? Nope.
RingAny1978@reddit
There has to be a credible chance that the alleged incitement is meaningful. That credibility is not present. You can yell Allah Akbar, kill the infidel all you want, but it is not a crime if you clearly are not intending any action on your part or on the part of those who hear you. In the USA at least, this is very clear - for incitement to be criminal there has to be an imminent danger presented against identifiable targets, not a general antipathy.
reddit4ne@reddit
Like a genocidal statement right after Oct. 7th, when a imminent retaliatory attack was obvious by an army strapped to the teeth against a militarily inferior opponent?
You just proved the prosecutor's argument and my point. Thanks.
RingAny1978@reddit
Except since that did not happen, there is a clear demonstration of lack of intent.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Riiiiight. In that case, I have a bridge to sell you in Gaza.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The IDF did not attack Gaza? Are you sure?
QtPlatypus@reddit
These people are military and political leaders. There words have meaning. Just like a king saying "Who will rid me of this meddling priest" it is credible that their words would be listened to.
QtPlatypus@reddit
This is the same as a charge of murder. You can be charged for incitement of murder even if no murder has occurred. This is why death threats and calling for the death of people is illegal.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Yes, that is what "incitement" means.
Wompish66@reddit
What exactly is your issue with this? You'll be convicted of solicitation for propositioning an undercover officer. They obviously don't intend to commit the crime for you to be guilty.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inchoate_offense
RingAny1978@reddit
When it is clear that no crime has occurred, when it clear that no crime was intended nor has there been a credible allegation that a crime was intended or attempted, you can not charge with incitement the very persons who could have done the crime, yet manifestly declined to commit the crime nor demonstrated by their actions any intent to commit the crime.
Wompish66@reddit
Well this is simply not the case.
All those human rights organisations and human rights lawyers must be just making it up.
It's quite obvious that you're just trying to defend the Israelis rather than actually address the legality of the accusation.
Caffeywasright@reddit
What? If you solicit an undercover officer you are intending to buy sex for money. That is your goal and that is a crime (someplace at least)
Wompish66@reddit
And what do you think is the intent if someone invokes biblical genocides to their soldiers.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/
Caffeywasright@reddit
I am not arguing whether or not he has intent (nor do I believe that a fucking biblical worse constitute intent) I am saying intent matters, which is what this lawyer doesn’t believe.
Wompish66@reddit
You have misunderstood his argument. He is saying that their incitement to commit genocide is not dependent on whether the IDF intended to or did.
Not that those accused's intent is irrelevant.
Siman421@reddit
But a large part if the definition of the crime of genocide is intent. Lack of intent pretty much inherently means no genocide.
That's what the other commenter was alluding to. This isn't an accusation you can accuse anyone of while specifically ignoring intent.
I only wanted to clarify this point, and do not intend on continuing discussions. Please respond to the commentor you were originally talking to and not me. You're welcome to disagree with me, but do not expect a response from me. I simply wanted to clarify something you seem to not understand about the other commentors argument.
_Hollywood___@reddit
Look up the word incitement
Wompish66@reddit
He's accusing them of incitement of genocide. Not of commuting genocide.
protonpack@reddit
Did you realize you were saying something silly?
If I incite people to commit violence towards Italian people, the incitement itself is a crime whether or not the violence has been committed yet. And even if I don't intend to commit the violence myself!
Amazing.
NukeAGayWhale4Jesus@reddit
"In criminal law, incitement is the encouragement of another person to commit a crime. Depending on the jurisdiction, some or all types of incitement may be illegal. Where illegal, it is known as an inchoate offense, where harm is intended but may or may not have actually occurred....Article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights requires that any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law."
Dorrbrook@reddit
Yes, that's what incitement is
fxmldr@reddit
That is typically what incitement means.
happycow24@reddit
When will the world stand up to such hateful antisemetism from the likes of Haaretz and the ICC?
Your head of government is on the International Bad-boy list (leaders ICC indicted for war crimes and crimes against humanity):
Pretty short list. Not a good look..
redelastic@reddit
Is this satire?
sigmaluckynine@reddit
I don't think so. This sub has a lot of pro Israel users and they think everyone is out to get them - even when it's the contrary and it's more due to the actions being taken my certain parties
happycow24@reddit
what do you think
redelastic@reddit
Not sure. Could be avant garde hasbara?
happycow24@reddit
okay lmao that's a new one "avant garde hasbara" I'm stealing it.
redelastic@reddit
You must be Israeli.
happycow24@reddit
nah if I was I wouldn't steal it, just rip you off. get your racism correct cmon this isn't /r/worldnews
redelastic@reddit
Of course.
HalfLeper@reddit
Ah, but there’s three! Don’t forget that Hamas guy, too!
EmptyJackfruit9353@reddit
Was?
HalfLeper@reddit
Still indicted. Just…no longer wanted 😅
ZumasSucculentNipple@reddit
Somebody's about to experience defenestration a la Russia.
dave3948@reddit
Odd that they omitted Amichai Eliyahu.
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