Rethinking Xena: In Light of Jose's Xena: Warrior Princess Retrospective
Posted by Browncoat101@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 25 comments
So, I just finished watching Jose's 2 hour long Xena retrospective, and as a person who had long entrenched my ideas of Xena in the framing in which I watched and experienced it, this was like a revelation for me. You've gotta remember that I watched this ish LIVE ON TV. There was a fandom, and I was active in it. Kimmy, it's the 90's! We were rabid queer women (and others) who had not one single lick of representation and weren't even sure what to do with characters and a world as deep and rich as the Xenaverse really was.
I watched that video and feel like my eyes have been opened. I started rewatching Xena a couple of months ago, but this made me actually excited about it again. I wanted to touch specifically on the relationship between Gabby and Xena. I think it's something that Jose made it clear that Gabby and Xena are soulmates. They love each other wholly and ardently. They may have kids, sleep with others, fight, break up, make up, but they truly need each other and complete each other in a way that no one else could. If anyone if familiar with the show Elementary, it's pretty much the same thing, except I've never wanted Sherlock and Joan to kiss. I think, when I was younger, I really craved Xena and Gabby 'getting together', and I can see now that their relationship is so much deeper than that.
The Finale: I wanna talk about the finale because when I first watched it, I hated the finale. I can talk about this and that, but the reason that I hated it is because Xena died. It felt like a betrayal. I still don't love it, but I really get it more now. I get the storytelling they were trying to do with Xena's story and the redemption that they consistently try to show us that she felt she didn't deserve. So, like, in the end, of course, she was going to sacrifice herself. And of course, Gabby was going to take up her mantel. I still don't love it, but it does make more sense in that context. And BY GOD, after literally 23 years og having that finale erode my spirit, I feel like I've gotten a new lease on life (I'm being dramatic, but you get it).
I'm just screaming from the rooftops, if you're a fan of Xena, if you're new to it, or if it's just a hazy memory from early 2000's message boards, this video is just for you. If you've watched it, let's talk about it! If not, what are you waiting for?!
RotaVitae@reddit
The thing that’s really out of our hands was that FIN was intended as the first of a series of telemovies. Just like Hercules began his life through telemovies before it went to series, Xena was going to go out the opposite way. Japan was going to be followed by Egypt, which is why Gab says she’s headed there next. Given this, it’s very likely Xena was going to be resurrected. But Gab was meant to be “on par” with her by that point in their life together, knowing everything she does, so they could go forward as declared equals for the films.
Then life got in the way, among other things, and it was decided Xena wouldn’t continue after Japan. The Egypt sequel was only in talks and was canned along with further sequels. But FIN had been completely filmed, so they turned it into the series finale instead. So we see Xena die, and she “stays dead” only because there was no further story. When I found out about the telemovie situation it redeemed the finale a bit more in my eyes. Chances are very likely that Xena was resurrected for further adventures later, we just never saw them. She and Gab could still live many years and die together.
And anyway, Xena has always dropped lines throughout the series that she intended to go out a glorious warrior’s death in battle. She’s not Hercules; fighting is what she knows best and fighting is how she’d like to go. Zero problems from me. What sucks is the reasons why she died here and refused to tell Gab. The 40K souls mean absolutely nothing to us as viewers because there was no buildup to Japan and we’d never heard about them before. They’re a bad reason for Xena to give her swan song, especially since at the end of Season 4, Xena declared she wasn’t going to be bogged down by her past guilt anymore. The Xena in FIN is Season 1 Xena who refuses to find a way past her guilt, that Gab spent years drumming into her head. She ignored six years of Gab’s influence and decided that staying dead for these random people was more important than living to fight.
Agent8699@reddit
The 3/4 TV movies in place of a full season 7 were rejected by Lawless and ROC well before the end of season 6. FIN was written and filmed knowing that there would be no subsequent TV movies.
Was the general idea of FIN, being a remake of A Chinese Ghost Story, an idea Tapert originally had for one of the telemovies? Maybe. But who knows if it was to be the first or last of them.
Ultimately, FIN is how Tapert chose to end Xena. Did some part of him hope that Xena’s death would lead to fan demand for a big screen movie in which she was resurrected? Maybe? We don’t know. I think it’s more likely that he had finished playing with those toys and didn’t want anyone else to be able to play with them.
The big screen movie with Gabrielle travelling to Egypt to resurrect Xena wasn’t “planned” until years later. And Tapert was unable to secure funding from third party investors since NBC Universal didn’t want to fund it.
We ultimately have no idea what Tapert may have done in the 3/4 telemovies. It’s unlikely he’d given it too much thought as Lawless and ROC turned them down immediately. ROC also shut Tapert down as soon as he proposed a Gabrielle spinoff.
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
Why'd she shut down a Gabby spin-off?
Agent8699@reddit
ROC wanted to start a family. She was pregnant during the filming of FIN.
Also, the work schedule was crazy! 5/6 days of filming - mostly outdoors in the cold, rain or heat, filming for 14+ hours a day, all that time exercising, in hair and makeup, etc. Not to mention all of the other work - recording ADR / sound for episodes, promotional and marketing duties, etc.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
I understand Renee told Lucy she was pregnant when they were on some dunes overlooking Danielle Cormack having some photos done in Last of the Centaurs.
Agent8699@reddit
Possibly. I can’t recall any details about that.
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
Well, I'm not defending the Japa thing. I complained about it in 2001 and I'll complain about it now. I definitely have beef with that, but the for me the #1 reason I didn't like the finale is because of her dying. This kind of makes the case for her going out as a final redemption for her past, and that makes it sit better with me. I don't know if that answers the question for everyone, but if you haven't watched the video, I definitely recommend it!
invisiblebyday@reddit
People who find satisfying meaning in FIN or who at have at least made peace with it, I'm pleased for you. I truly am.
I've never been able to get there. Xena was not only killed off, she was killed off for ridiculous reasons: In the last two episodes of the series we're introduced to a huge piece of Xena's past without build up. Xena effectively gets defeated by misogyny (the ghost and human villain are especially odious). Xena feels misplaced guilt about the souls yet we've been given no reason to give a s*** about the hateful villagers whose souls she's saving.
I agree that the totality of the series can be seen as leading up to Xena sacrificing herself to atone, and Gabrielle coming into her warrior own. The problem for me is twofold. One, how the sacrifice came about was poorly done as I've mentioned. If it were done with more respect to the character and previous 5-6 seasons, this would have all sat better with me.
Secondly, it can be argued that the totality of the series was actually leading towards Xena finding redemption through her ongoing deeds rather than what effectively amounted to be a self inflicted death - that's how wasteful to me Xena's death was in FIN. Gabrielle didn't require Xena's death to come into her own either.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Totally agree about the lack of build up. If they wanted her to die, it should have had some relevance to earlier established storylines, and not be based on some manipulative chicky-babe we've never heard about before, whom Xena barely knows, who is using Xena right from the start. And yes, the whole series was about her finding redemption by helping people now. I suppose they couldn't have the same sort of ending they had with Hercules and Iolaus walking off into the sunset together.
Perfect-Comfortable4@reddit
I can imagine with time and perspective that AFIN feels more reasonable. Watching back then it felt like a huge betrayal.
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
Yep, that was my experience too. I remember I'd gone to my friend's house and we'd dressed up and even like, made special Xena themed snacks! We were so hype. And then it went off and we were just like, what? We were all the way stressed out. This helped soothe that feeling a little, even all these years later.
Perfect-Comfortable4@reddit
Oooh Xena themed snacks? 🥰
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
Haha, literally like little decorated cookie chakrams, and the like. I don't remember everything, but we went all out only as teens celebrating the end of their favorite show could.
Perfect-Comfortable4@reddit
That sounds great !
Latte-Catte@reddit
I never care or believe in the soulmate thing, but since we're talking about Xena and Gabrielle, I firmly believe that they're meant to meet eachother and be together in every lifetime. Be it star-crossed lover, or the eternal inseparable platonic friends; it's wrong of Tapert to take Xena away from Gabrielle man, I don't think I'll ever be over that. For all Xena has suffered through, losing her family, the betrayal, and losing Solan, I think the very least the Olympian gods could do is let Xena stay with Gabrielle.
Screw that Akemi girl for stealing Xena into Japa's afterlife, separating Xena forever away from her family and friends in Elysium/Tartarus.
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
I would suggest watching the video, it really made me understand things on a whole different leve. It was great!
thedorknightreturns@reddit
The experimental journalist episode also givesAtes and Aphrodite the powers back.
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Two hours is a long time to watch a video. Is there a summary of it anywhere?
BTW Ares and Aphrodite are NOT powerless at the end of the series, their godly powers were restored in You Are There. Also the twelve main gods that are recognised as being in the Greek Olympiad are Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, Aphrodite, Athena, Artemis, Apollo, Ares, Hephaestus, Hermes, and either Hestia or Dionysus (source Wikipedia).
Of these in the Hercules/Xenaverse, the only ones killed were Zeus (by Hercules), Hera (by Zeus in Hercules?), Athena, Artemis, Hephaestus, and Poseidon, all 'killed' by Xena, together with Hades, Discord and Deimos. So at least half of the Olympiad Gods are still around eg Apollo, Demeter, Aprhodite, Ares, Hermes, and Hestia. Dionysus was the proper Greek name for Bacchus in the series and it could be argued that he didn't actually die in Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. There's also the Fates who were still around pulling strings in When Fates Collide.
A couple of final things - although they say those Greek Gods died, in mythology they became Roman gods with different names. The key, here, is Power. A god loses its power when people no longer believe in them. It doesn't mean he really dies but again, for the sake of a plotline that seriously was not the best, they (mostly) died because of Xena. The reality is that other religious beliefs simply took their place.
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
There is not a summary unfortunately but well worth the two hours! I listen to it while working on a puzzle.
Latte-Catte@reddit
I mean, there's plenty more gods Xena did not kill. Apollo, Dionysus, Kratos, etc,...
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
The vibe was that the Greek gods were at the end of their power, and newer gods have taken their place. That's my point.
multiplecats@reddit
Ooh I love his video essays. I understand you about seeing this show with a brand new perspective after so many years. I saw it live also and I experienced the same eye opening epiphany rewatching it as an adult! Thanks for the link. Gonna go watch!
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
Yes! I'm glad. This was exactly my experience, and I'm glad you're going to check it out. I literally watched it as a teen! My media literacy was negative zero, lol. I also think it being the time period it was, my feelings were a lot stronger about what did and didn't count as representation. This video really kick started my sinking back into this fandom, and I'm glad!
RiotingMoon@reddit
The actresses pushed hard for them to have an actual on screen relationship so the queer code is absolutely valid
Browncoat101@reddit (OP)
Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vCgF7LQ-Y8