Balkans are deliberately divided

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ComedyWhisper@reddit

It is all simply because of religion . End of the story. Put those things aside and people get well together. Why do you think we are all friends in Germany , America , UK ...

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What bothers me is that this country called russia is given way to much importance than it deserves. We need to tell to the russian leaders and population that they don't matter, nobody cares about them or their history, and they can go fuck themselves.

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rakijautd@reddit

Change your dealer.

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el_primo@reddit

If you can't see this, it's time to put on some glasses. Russia has been dividing the Balkans since late 19th century.

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rakijautd@reddit

How, and in what specific scenarios?
Austria tried to conquer all of the Balkans minus Bulgaria who was their ally during WW1, trust me, you would be next on their menu if they won.
Russia sponsored some rebellions (Serbs and Bulgarians) against the Ottomans to gain a sphere of influence here and free passage to the "warm seas".
During the USSR it maintained Bulgaria and Romania under it's influence, and had bad to cordial relations with Yugoslavia.
How did Russia exactly try to divide the Balkans? Or are we going to let Russophobia convince us, through mental gymnastics, that we were living the dream under the Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians, and that Russian support to unchain ourselves from foreign empires was bad?
I am fully aware that it was in their own interest, to stretch out the Ottoman forces on multiple fronts, but still.
What's next? The Germans were the good guys in WW2? Oh no, wait, we are currently at the stage of "Nazis were bad, but so were those who defeated them", never mind the fact that only one of those actively tried to exterminate entire groups of people and had it as a part of their system, while the others managed to leave certain parts of their dominion in poverty due to periods of bad planning, incompetence, and external factors, and had one famine.
You should put on some glasses.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

"How did Russia exactly try to divide the Balkans?" - I am talking about recent years, not 60 years ago.

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rakijautd@reddit

Well, how are they trying to divide the Balkans?
Even better, how can Balkans be any more divided than they are now?

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Exactly. Job is done. We hate eachother. Artificially.

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rakijautd@reddit

What job, answer the question.
I don't hate anyone. If you do, that is your problem.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Plan of dividing Balkans between Austro-Hungary and Russia is created around two centuries ago. Somewhere between 1820-1830. It was long before WWI. Today Austria is not an empire. It's the other one that consider itself for the third Rome.
What about 2016 Montenegrin coup attempt? What is reason for bad to cordial relations between russia and Yugoslavia after WWII? It wasn't like that in the beginning. Maybe someone decided that Yugoslavia is USSR colony at one point. What about Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and Prague Spring in 1968? Poland was ruined in early 1980 because of the stupid economic policies that were imposed by USSR. I was a child at that time and we have to collect blankets and food to send to the polish children. And it was even worse in Romania.
You were lucky at that time. You were far better that USSR colonies until your leaders became like soviet leaders.
It's not bad if someone helps you to free yourself from foreign empire. It's bad when they put the chains on you after that.
The fact that Germans were bad during WWII doesn't mean that russians were good. The same can be said about UK if you like.
We all know that we have rough history between ourselves, to put it lightly. Being conscripted shortly after 1989 I know that we had plans to defend ourselves even from our socialist "friends" It was even worse in Yugoslavia. Look what happens now! We get along quite well with most of our neighbors. We travel, we communicate, we even sometimes have a drink together. We're not that different, even with Turks. People are people. Yes, they have different culture. But also they are very hospitable and if you have problem in Turkey it's highly likely that people will try to help you. And they have nothing to do with events that happened more than a century ago.

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rakijautd@reddit

Let's say that this plan between the 1820 and 1830 existed. Did it happen? -no.

Yes, it's totally the Russian agents that wanted to overthrow a dictator in a mafia state. It has absolutely nothing to do with him oppressing a large chunk of the population, and getting filthy rich for 20+ years at that point. No sir, it's the Russians.

Yugoslavia was never an USSR colony, nor anything remotely close. Tito and Stalin have had their separate visions, and decided to go separate ways, in a very, very non-friendly manner. With time the relations went from bad to cordial. As I have stated, we had bad to cordial relations. I don't want to throw salt on a fresh wound, but the fact that we had liberated ourselves from the Nazis without much help from the Red Army, granted us that liberty, the same can't be said about the rest.

The USSR involvement in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Poland, has nothing to do with the Balkans.

As for the treatment of it's allies, I do think that the USSR made a bunch of stupid moves, which had hurt their ability to have a sphere of influence. That said, it is fortunate that they also ignored the fact that half of those countries were German allies, and they tried to rebrand them into communist ones, and have built infrastructure. So it's not all "bad", there is some good, when you consider that the alternative could have been a partition of all the mentioned countries. Also, you could have been a part of Yugoslavia if your leadership wasn't still thirsty for what is now North Macedonia, and you wouldn't have had to deal with that same Soviet influence. As for Romania, they were in deep shit mostly due to their own leadership, if we ignore that certain regions were annexed by SR Ukraine, which is simply bad.

During WW2 everyone who have fought the Nazis were good, period. Because we can't view history in a vacuum and must understand what was the other possible outcome, which is the extermination of Jews, Roma, and Slavs to begin with. I consider anyone who had fought those who wanted to exterminate innocent people good. Did they all have their own fuck ups before, during, and after the war - sure, it is still good in comparison.

I don't consider the history between Serbs and Bulgarians that rough in comparisons to many other pairs. Nor would I let history form my opinion on any group of people in present day life. Just how I can be friends with Germans, Croats, Albanians, and Bulgarians, so can I be with Russians, Belarusians, Greeks, and Romanians. The fact that historically my country had good/bad relations with another country can not dehumanize anyone enough for me to ignore them as a person. I don't need a conspiracy theory about "evil Russians" to follow that basic trail of thought, as I have been raised to have such values.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

It's always about money.
Read that, I don't want to write the same things again.
I have never said that Serbia is a colony of USSR after the WWII. The others were, including us, you were lucky.
Some people that fought nazis in Bulgaria have done some things that wasn't nice. Even before there was such thing as Nazi. Then after september 1944 the same people killed more Bulgarians than pre 1944 "nazi" government. Which was not nice also. So I can't say that all that fought nazis were good. It's debatable if Hitler killed more russians than Stalin. I can bet that it was Stalin. What's nice about that?

And don't mention North Macedonia at all. I'm half Macedonian, and my great grandfather was born in Stip. He was also member of VMRO and came in Bulgaria when Stip became part of the Kingdom of Slovene, Croats and Serbs. He had to, not to be killed. That was decades before WWII as you can imagine.

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rakijautd@reddit

It's not really debatable if Hitler killed more Slavs than Stalin (not all Soviets were Russians, there were Belarusians, Ukrainians, Rusyns, etc there, not to mention all the Slavs Hitler killed that weren't Soviet citizens like Poles, Czechs, Serbs, etc). Stalin's government was ruthless in many ways, but they didn't kill much of their people, at least not deliberately. I am not going to fall for red scare propaganda and list famine victims and nazi soldiers into a kill count of innocent people, as the first group died without an attempt to kill them, but rather a poor management, and the other group can't be victims as they have surrendered their humanity by being nazis. Nor am I going to count soldiers of the Red Army who died in combat as "victims of Stalin", as most sources who pump up the numbers of people killed by his government usually do. If you don't trust me, look at the sources, it all goes back to that silly book which I won't name.

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WhyEveryUnameIsTaken@reddit

Along with the UK, France, and recently the US. Maybe you need some glasses too...

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I don't think that Greece needs Russia or Austria to be divided from, say Bulgaria, and absolutely doesn't have identical mindset and traditions, like the OP suggests

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el_primo@reddit

I've spent too much time in Greece and know enough Greeks to argue that we are indeed very, very close and similar in so many ways.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

If you have been "much time in Greece", can you suggest some places in Bulgaria, that resemble Rhodes, or Corfu, Nafplio, Monemvasia etc? Can you suggest some Bulgarian dishes like Pastitsio, or Matsata? Maybe Bulgarian songs similar to Kantades? I am asking because honestly, visiting the country twice per year, I indeed feel like being in a completely different environment, with quite irrelevant people

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

They had a plans to push the ottomans from Balkans and to divide the Balkans since early 19th.

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el_primo@reddit

even worse

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Gha556jkahb3h778@reddit

Russians are better than all of you put together

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ToughThugRDR2@reddit

Russia doesn't do anything in the Balkans. They didn't have enough influence to do anything in Ukraine and that country is on their border. Balkans are directly controlled like the rest of Europe by the CIA(Mossad) . And they promote hatred between white people so we kill each other and reduce our numbers. They are almost done with that job as Europe is now dropping in population by 10-20 million per year.

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MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit

I'm no fan of Russia, to mildly put it, but I wouldn't go so far to accuse them exclusively for divison of Balkan.

The Western powers and Ottomans played they part in it, as much as Russia, and even ourselves weren't imune on divisons based on different reasons.

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MegaMB@reddit

I'm gonna be very honest. I know Tito has a good press. But like, his biggest and main responsability is in the fact that... the communist party he built from the ground up was purely and plainly catastrophic at finding quality people, and making them grow into decent politicians.

From a purely factual point of view. I'm not sure if a single other political entity has bred as many war criminals per capita than the yugo communist party.

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LoresVro@reddit

These conflicts go back before Russia.

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ResidentLong1032@reddit

Of course.

1875 1918 1948

However, the Balkans are right in the middle between the West, the East and the Other East. All three wanted it divided or conquered.

Unification would create a fourth force on the table, one with warm seas, good food and the wisdom of three worlds.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

The only force I can see is inside European Union, not any other european construction. I will never support Romania leaving EU or joining other weird local alliances.

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ResidentLong1032@reddit

As a Croat I agree fully; we are the Slavic people with the strongest connections to the Latin world.

But it does mean that the Balkans will stay between the spheres of influence and therefore stay peripheral to everyone for the next millennium, at the same time being peripheral to three cultures.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

I hope that in time our part of Europe will start to play a bigger role, Poland is already heading that way. If in an ideal world, Turkiye will revive Ataturk and switch the country 180 degree on the european course, I'm pretty sure this part of European Union will play an important role in the matters of the Union.

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ResidentLong1032@reddit

Hah, cool that you mentioned Poland, wanted to do it too. But from my experience, everybody overestimates the Slavic driven influence of Poland to us in the South unfortunately.

It's very hard to predict anything as long as we don't know how post war Ukraine will strive.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

Based on the attrition war that is now, looks like Ukraine is slowly losing it, desertion is rising in ukrianian troops, so probably they will lose some territory with nothing in exchange.

My only idea of turning the situation would for them to make an equal society and call to arms everyone even the women, inspire them for one last push, NATO to provide them non stop training, ammunitions, equipment, vehicles, planes and no matter the losses see what you can gain from it. Otherwise I don't think anything will change.

Another option that won't happen because people are scared is for EU to start the war with Russia like Macron said and basically send our troops and everything to fight the russians.

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circleoftorment@reddit

to start the war with Russia like Macron said and basically send our troops and everything to fight the russians.

There is only one scenario where this would help the EU project, and that is if a federal Europe emerges with its own MIC, independent geopolitics, and sovereign control over its territories. That means not just crushing Russia, but also kicking USA out. De Gaulle had the right idea, which is why France is the most sovereign European country to this day. Unfortunately, we have reversed course on that independent Europe project, and are doing the bidding of the off shore balancers.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

I'm not happy with the situation we are now, I hope we will go toward a more independent EU, the war could be an opportunity for us to Unify and strengthen our bond to next level.

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TheOneWhoDidntCum@reddit

Hypothetical war, if Russia had decided to conquer Poland and get the eastern part, and Poland wasn't part of Nato, would the result have been similar to Ukraine since they have similar population?

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

If Russia attacks any EU country there is an article of defense where all the other member of EU will join the war. So it wont happen la in Ukraine

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ResidentLong1032@reddit

Yeah it's not looking promising right now. In fact we can only hope for a 1917 to happen again.

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DocGerbill@reddit

But it does mean that the Balkans will stay between the spheres of influence and therefore stay peripheral to everyone for the next millennium

Hopefully we're able to push the boundary of the EU to the Russian border and let the Ukrainians and Belorussian worry about living on the borderlands.

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ResidentLong1032@reddit

EU to the Russian border and let the Ukrainians and Belorussian worry about living on the borderlands.

Ural has to stay our goal ;) Romans should have built a Great Wall at Ural.

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DocGerbill@reddit

Unification would create a fourth force on the table, one with warm seas, good food and the wisdom of three worlds.

And 10 languages and many many more cultures and the worlds leading corruption hot spots all under 1 roof. We've had a united Balkan state in Yugoslavia and it didn't work, let's leave it at that.

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ResidentLong1032@reddit

Well that is exactly my point. The lack of a mighty center on the Balkans makes it what it is.

For example, Belgrade meant nothing for the Croats, Croats looked upon Vienna and Venice, maybe Prague and Budapest.

Balkan is peripheral to three centers and this won't change for the next couple of millenia.

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DocGerbill@reddit

We're a dozen different ethnicities, languages and cultures, it makes sense not to have any central power node, as each group has their own: Hungarians in Budapest, Serbs in Belgrade, Greeks in Athens and so on.

Constantinople was the local power node for a very long time, then Vienna and Istanbul and later Moscow. Right now it's a split between Brussels, Washington and Moscow with Beijing desperately trying to get on the list.

I guess my point is that it's always been shit show in the Balkans, every one of the people's living here having different interests, allies and partners. Expecting a local power broker isn't really realistic specially considering 1500 years of migrations, invasions, wars and empires redrawing borders.

The only system to potentially unite the Balkans is a loose federation which still gives each state a lot of independence (maybe this will be the EU or maybe not), but centralizing 12 nations with different cultures, religions and languages into a single country will not give you a functional state.

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Diogenika@reddit

A good answer, and it is not just about the Balkans, but Eastern Europe as well.

We are like a buffer zone between the East and the West, and always will be caught in the middle, therefore under the propaganda of both. Although currently we are more openly under the Western influence sphere.

It is also worth mentioning that each side will lay blame on the other, as expected.

Although Russophobia is more fashionable in the West, especially for people who did not open a single history or geopolitics book.

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johndelopoulos@reddit

I Guess you don't include Greece to the description above, since we do not have "identical mindset and traditions", with Balkans, or anyone else

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No-Resolve6160@reddit

A Bosniak here. It is divided by entrenched klerofascism that is a part of the traditions of the Balkan people. Calling me a "turkish sell out" while expecting me to defend "our values" really doesn't go together does it? And then on top of that you do have different huge Empires (like Russia,USA, China) that have theirs interests. The regular people see that, but ask a Serb if he is against Russia he will break down in tears. Ask a Croat of he is against Germany he will go Deus Vult. Ask a Bosniak does he think Muslims don't belong in Europe and he will leave the table, as he is native to Europe. Insults,humiliation and hate is what we have towards ourselves. And we will always have it until we get over the primitivism, and the fact that we like to tell eachother who you are and who am I. We like to tell eachoter thay Macedonia is Greek, that Bosnia is Serb ir Croat, that Bugar is a "gypsy" that Montenegro is not a country, that Croats are Latins etc. We are practicaly racist toward eachother. And then it is super easy for someone to throw a bit of cash at us and bood flows. Land of blood amd honey indeed.

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Turbulent-Debate7661@reddit

Historically, Greeks have been in conflict with Bulgarians since around 850 AD, long before the existence of modern Russia. Our disputes with Albanians are more recent, spanning the past 200 years. With the Serbs, our relationship has been complex—a mix of alliances and conflicts. We had treaties during the era of Alexios Komnenos, wars during the reign of Stefan Dušan, and a sense of brotherhood during the Ottoman occupation and World War I.

The Balkans, in general, have been a region of near-constant warfare throughout history. The only exceptions for Greece in ancient times were our relatively good relations with the Dacians and Thracians.

In the context of the past century, however, I agree that Soviet Russia played a significant role in shaping the region. Unfortunately, the other Balkan countries were under communist regimes for 50 years, which caused economic and social setbacks. In contrast, Greece was under American influence during this time.

That said, in the last 30 years, many Balkan nations have outpaced Greece in progress, particularly after emerging from communism. Despite these historical challenges, we are in a better position now than we were 30 years ago. The Macedonian issue has been resolved, and relations with Albania have improved significantly. Remarkably, we now share strong ties with Bulgaria—something unprecedented, given our adversarial history from 850 AD until as recently as 1991.

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foreverpasta@reddit

Human and drug trafficking will loose their edge. People live for that thrill!

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JaThatOneGooner@reddit

My brother in Christ, Russia was busy collapsing in 1991 when the shit that divided us kicked off…

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Stverghame@reddit

It is easy to spew such stuff when there is a public enemy that you can blame everything on. The view is quite childish, and it scratches the surface only. The issue is much deeper, deep enough to make your claims completely irrelevant.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Claim by a typical Serb. Do u even understand the state your country is currently in?

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Stverghame@reddit

See? :)

With that approach I am never going to support anything you guys do.

Claim by a typical ____ (whatever you are, there's too many carbon copy nations on Daddy America's muddy doormat)

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

You dont have a life. Your life is a constant debate about how the West got you into conflict. You are living in pseudo revolutionary partizan distopia.

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-Sweet_Chaos-@reddit

Get heIp.

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Naive_Pride4166@reddit

My brother in Christ, do you see the irony in saying “claim by a typical Serb” after you post sentences like “I respect you all, Balkan friends” and “Every country is deliberately divided”? :D

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Sorry, I don't respect people brainwashed by Russian propaganda.

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Stverghame@reddit

Not everyone who disagrees with you is brainwashed. You are brainwashed for having such a black-white approach.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

U are blinded by your non objective information source and media, sorry. If you are smart enough - dig into reliable books etc., to see you are wrong. For example, my country, ex USSR state - every media is propagandist, most of history books are biased towards Russia, all historical buildings and monuments were destroyed replaced with Russian heroes, as our pre USSR history was non existant.

But if you press you brain and try to think critically, you will see what I mean.

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Stverghame@reddit

Take therapy, don't skip it. You're just the other side of the coin with the Russian propagandists. Neither of you are better or worse.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

U kinda became offended, didn't you? I feel sorry for you folks, but you are just as much intelligent, so that you deserve this mindset. Haha.

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Stverghame@reddit

Offended by someone's confidence while they lack critical thinking - absolutely. People who like to talk a lot while having 0 basis to do so truly piss me off.

I like how your mask fall off after literally one comment, you just keep proving yourself wrong, showing that the problem is rooted deep in Balkaners and not outside factors.

For now, I ain't continuing conversation with you if I deem it unnecessary. That's the case now. I feel like I am talking to an inanimate object that has prerecorded speech.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Thanks, u are doing me favor, russian fan. Haha.

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Stverghame@reddit

All of those "peaceful", "cosmopolitan", "tolerant" and "western oriented" peeps are like that. Scratch a bit under the surface and you'll find a worse monster than those on the other side.

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Diogenika@reddit

It is not Russia bombing the shit out everyone, isnt it? So yeah, especially a Serb would get that ;)

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4ku2@reddit

That's exactly what a Bulgarian would say (/s)

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

I mean, we don't hold any grudge with any Balkan country, I'm always sad that the serbs are not yet together with us on the european road but maybe someday. Still I don't despise them.

Even the Turkiye I hope one day maybe will become a member.

The grudges are mostly between the former Yugoslav countries.

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

thanks but we don't want to be with you on that path, we strive for something better.

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Pristine10887@reddit

It's hilarious to watch Serbs still being mad because they got stopped by NATO mid-genocide 😭

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

Stopped what, learn your own history, pretty much every massacre and every instance of ethnic cleansing happened after the start of the NATO intervention. They didn't stop shit.

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Pristine10887@reddit

Almost 1 million people had to run from their homes you dumb fuck.

13K civilians dead 20K women raped 1600 still missing

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

Yeah, and google the date, all that happened after the NATO intervention. How many people had to run from their homes before, and how many had to run from their homes after the start of the NATO intervention? Just google it, and see for yourself, NATO didn't stop anything.

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Pristine10887@reddit

Yes Serbs were loving the Albanians before NATO bombing

Also it was NATO's fault that Serbia escalated the violence after the bombings began.

Those pesky NATO members provoking the peaceful Serbian people

/s/s/s

🤡🤡🤡

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

Answer me, how many people were forced out of their homes before the NATO intervention, and how many were forced out of their homes after the start of the NATO intervention. Why are you so afraid of facts?

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

What that something better would be?

Look on the global powers and markets, do you think as a small nation you can have anything to say against the great powers of the world?

I think there are more chances together in the european family to accomplish together a greater future for our nations.

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

I just don't like the way Romania and Bulgaria are going and wouldn't want my country to go down the same path. I don't want NATO bases, I don't want NATO generals as presidents, even during the warsaw pact generals didn't become presidents. I don't want political parties to get banned and legitimate elections overturned because EU wouldn't like the results, etc.

Giving up so much of the countries sovereignty for so little economical gain can't be a good decision, whatever the future brings I'm certain that is not a path to prosperity. We need to find some alternative to have any hope.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

We also didn't support generals becoming political leaders, that was a very controversional thing. I haven't heard about political parties being banned in EU.

I don't think you will lose as much sovereignty as you think, also the economical gain is not little, for all eastern countries is was huge, Romania for the first time in history passed Hungary in a lost of economical stats.

But maybe in time you will change your view. Just think that as a small nation you can't talk on the big table with the world powers, you just have to accept what they say.

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

Yes and Serbia surpassed many Greek economic stats for the first time in history without EU and NATO. It doesn't take a lot to surpass EU stats in post 2008 world, economic prosperity that EU once promised doesn't even exist for over 10 years. If we continue on our path and EU countries continue on their path we will surpass others too.

And that's while our current path is also horrible, if only we had better politicians we would be blowing the EU out of the water. We don't need EU we need better leadership, without better leadership EU will not help us, and with better leadership we will not need EU, in fact with better leadership not being part of the EU and NATO could be a huge advantage.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

Sure, if you think a small country like Serbia can really negotiate or impose anything with US, China, Brazil, India, Rusia, e.g. on equal terms. I don't think you can understand the big world we live in and 7 million people is nothing compared to hundreds of millions working for the same purpose.

I've heard similar views like yours when I've been in Serbia, I don't subscribe to it

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

You also don't get anything for prostrating yourself in front of them and offering everything on a silver platter. Serbia has key interests that put it in an adversarial position to the US and EU, even what little they gave to Romania they would never give to Serbia. Why would we give everything for crumbs.

The alternative is not going to be easy, but a man jumping from a burning building is not jumping because he wants to splash on concrete, he just doesn't want to burn alive.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

Them who? All of us are EU, who are them?

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

Washington, Brussels and Berlin.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

US is not inside EU, the rest of EU countries are equal, just look at what Hungary is doing.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Clearly this person is hugely affected by propaganda, talking scared of NATO bases etc. Also, he thinks the countries with bad statistics like Bulgaria and Romania are such because the EU doesnt do anything. But it is the other way around - the corrupted system implemented by the USSR for half a century made things that bad. And just to tell you this - EU is not there to fix your internal country problems, because each member pays a membership price. EU can give you stable currency, free borders and funds. And thats it. Unlike Russia, which like a plague of spies and agents spreads hate and propaganda in the Balkan and Baltic countries and directly meddles with country's interal works (unlike EU). Yes, EU has its downsides, but no system is perfect. And there are also cycles - sometimes times are hard, then times are good. Dont take everything for granted.

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

ah yes, all the media is owned by Russian corporations, all the NGOs are funded by the Russian government, and it's the russian ambassadors who are constantly meeting with our politicians.

Russia is one of the poorest countries in europe, the size of their economy is less than the size of italian economy, but they are at the same time so powerful they get to influence all the elections in the world, Romanian, French, German, American, every election is fixed by Putin. Anyone who believes otherwise is hugely affected by propaganda.

You live in lalaland, enjoy the EU.

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mschuster91@reddit

artificial conflicts based on history/ ethnicity/ religion by Russia.

I wouldn't call the 90s wars and what led to them "artificial". Fact is, the Balkans and the entire area around them (including today's Turkey) has been fought over constantly for centuries, and it is the echo of these conflicts that culminated in the collapse of Yugoslavia. You had the Austrians and the Ottomans, before them the Mongols, Crusaders, Selchuks - everyone warred with everyone, armies on the move pillaged everything they wanted, soldiers deserted and settled down bringing elements of their culture in... and of course there was a lot of forcible displacement and massacres involved, passed down in cultures as what is now called "generational trauma", that was never really resolved on either side of whatever specific conflicts - in most cases conflicts were "settled" by "might makes right" or under Tito by brutal repression, and in the 90s many attempted to seek revenge as solution, further adding more trauma to the mix.

No doubt that Russia is fanning on tensions via Serbia in Kosovo or Bosnia at the moment, but IMHO they are more picking up on ancient fracture lines than artificially creating them.

And for what it's worth I don't have any idea either on how to resolve centuries of bloody history, neither in the Balkans nor in the clusterfuck that is Israel/Palestine.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Russians issue is that they have oil and they feel entitled, with imperialistic dreams. So, with that oil, Merkel made the oligarchs even richer - yes, this whole huge country is ruled by dozens of oligarchs. And the oligarchs father, Putin, has this dream to revive USSR. To be the greater than USA. To have technology rivaling the western world. But since this cncentration of power and wealth is channeled to one single guy, named Putin - he went crazy, like psychopathic delusional narcissist. And this guy is best at 2 things - selling cheap oil products and spreading spies around the globe as per his liking and ideas. Therefore, the world should not underestimate the power of propaganda division and artificial conflicts based on ethnicity, religion and what not. You can see Putin as a bad bully, spreading intrigues between his colleagues.

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0ld_Snake@reddit

I'd blame the Balkan division and instability on the US more than Russia

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Gladius_Bosnae_Sum@reddit

The concept of balkanization is well documented, but we chose our destinies. My people went out in the streets in 1992 to secede from Yugoslavia and the referendum's outcome was 99.71% For.

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SerboBosnianCroat@reddit

Balkans are the original "melting pot" of ethnicities, genes, religions, and culture. America appropriated this term. This post is a massive oversimplification.

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

By Russia? Yugoslavia wasn't divided by Russia. So hate between ex Yugo countries doesn't fit your theory.

Kosovo wars did not happen because of Russia. So hate between Serbs and Albanians also doesn't fit.

Albanian-Macedonian disagreement is about cultural and ethnical differences. So also not by Russia.

Bulgarian - Macedonian "disagreement" is historical. Nothing to do with Russia.

There is no noticable tensions between others.

How on earth did you came up with that theory?

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el_primo@reddit

Bulgarian - Macedonian "disagreement" is historical. Nothing to do with Russia.

Bro, just please... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Manifesto

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Sea-Bend-5914@reddit

I love this bulgarian conspiracy theory that Macedonians were "created" by Serbs AND Russians. Pure delusion and ironically very similiar to Putins delusions about Ukrainians

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Your propaganda is like you live in the 80s. Bulgaria is European country. MK is a multiethnic society ruled by ethnic monolithic nationalists. I see the ancient history and the faked origin. I think Europe recognized this.

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Sea-Bend-5914@reddit

What "faked origin", Mr. Putin?

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Russia in the Balkans is connected in Serbia and Belgrade. You should look there.

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Sea-Bend-5914@reddit

I know, but what you say about the Macedonians and their "faked origin" is the same ultranationalist bullshit that Putin says about the Ukrainians.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

You are not educated. VMRO historic was Bulgarian and all heros were Bulgarians. This has nothing to do with the communist rule. Yugoslavs only made it worse.

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Sea-Bend-5914@reddit

Macedonians. Are. Not. Bulgarians.

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

You can speak on your behalf. All Macedonians have Bulgarian origin. And Europe recognized this.

You should learn more.

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el_primo@reddit

You are free to love and believe whatever you find proper, my friend. But obviously very much is spared in your history books if you tend to make such parallels.

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Sea-Bend-5914@reddit

I know, Bulgaria, thank God, doesn't have any capabilities to attack North Macedonia. But it still would be nice if you would accept Macedonians as their own people and not some Bulgarians who were "influenced by serbo-communist/serbo-russian propaganda"

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Aggressive_Limit2448@reddit

Macedonians might be accepted when they accept their origin. Bulgaria has nothing to defend and accept it has all from it's history.

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

You get simmilar disgreement between Serbia and Montenegro today, yet they are 99.99% the same, unlike Bulgaria and Macedonia.

Your telling me that if that May manifesto of didn't happen, today macedonians would believe their bulgarians right?

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el_primo@reddit

I believe that too many outer forces have put a line between our people.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Bulgarian - Macedonian "disagreement" is historical. Nothing to do with Russia.

It does. Some VMRO members were influenced by russia, and other were very against russia that lead to split in the organization. Some were sympathetic towards russia because of the russian turkish war, the others knew that "the one who freed us will enslave us".
I don't remember the exact details but some killed а Bulgarian minister because russia didn't liked the Bulgarian government at the time. Then even killed Bulgarian ex prime minister and most influential politician at that time. The organizer of the killing the was later killed by order of the leader of VMRO. That's how deeply divided VMRO was.
Frankly, it's not only russia. At the end of 19th century bulk of the great powers decided what should be on the Balkans and all of them were pursuing their own geopolitical agenda. And used various methods to maintain their influence in the region. Russia and Austro-Hungary even wanted to split Balkans between them - east Balkans to Russia and west to Austro-Hungary, but it didn't happen. Still both played a big role and supplied the weapons and funding in Serbian Bulgarian war and after that
Also mainly in WWI. Also often they were switching sides because their own political interests.
Of course there are cultural and ethnic al differences, but those differences were used and exploited by external forces for their own interests.

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

Bro you are talking about geopolitics from 100 years ago. Lets blame Ottomans and Austria Hungary. Lets spend time and enegry on that instead of real problems.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I can copy that from other post of mine:
I don't know about that. Let me think! I'm old enough to remember the times before 1989. I was conscripted in the army shortly after that. At that time we mainly have enemies around the borders. We were learning in school that all of our neighbors are enemies. The main defending forces and the main enemy was south as it was NATO at that time, but even our "friendly" socialist countries wasn't considered safe and although it wasn't that obvious the armed forces have means to defend the country from our socialist "friends".
Now is different. Not different but very different. We get along with Greece quite well even though we have rough history between us, and Romania and even Turkey, and basically all our neighbors. Why is it so different now?

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

None of us have true independence today.

We will stay friends until more powerful ones say otherwise.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I will try to explain it differently. When Hungary was under Russian influence they sent tanks there when they decided to emancipate. Now there's no tanks in Hungary even if orban is trying hard.

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

And how exactly that is related to Russia interferance in inter-Balkan relations of today?

P.S. Soviet*, not Russian. Note that happened 10 years after WW2, 70 yeara ago.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

What about coup attempt in Montenegro?

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

Ha, I love that you mentioned that!

That is funny story, thing was non existent! Politically engineered attempt to jail some opposition leaders, and so on.

Fourteen people were arrested, bakers, pensione, etc. Their weapons? SLINGSHOTS! I'm not even joking. Every one of them released. Main state attorney (guy who accused them) is now in jail, but for different reason.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

For some reason 100% of our gas and petrol was imported from Russia until 2021. I know stuff that I can't just put in public place, but how is that possible if we are ruled by EU and US? The gas prices that we were paying was higher than the price of Poland for example.
I didn't know about that event in Montenegro, and I can give it to you, you are maybe right. But our energy import until 2021 doesn't make sense at all. Also why is the fuels more expensive in Serbia than in Bulgaria and Romania? That also doesn't make sense. They have lower excise duty in Serbia even. Who is milking the people in Serbia? Who is the owner of Naftna Industrija Srbije? That's a billion worth of monopoly that is defended by all means possible. It's the same with MOL in Hungary. Still there's no tanks in Hungary. Unlike in Ukraine, because of that same billion worth business.

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

About coup - I'm not MAYBE right...

About Serbia, as far as I know, fuel prices have something to do with taxes to fund Expo, but I don't know much about that.

We went too far from the original topic, but I would not say that Russian business has something to do with tanks in Ukraine, or maybe in Hungary in the future. It's about geopolitics.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I don't care about coup. I know about taxes. Excise duty in Serbia is lower than in Romania and Bulgaria. We had lower excise duty and similar pump prices to some other European countries. The difference is going in Lukoil, not in the national budget. Now it's the same in Serbia. People in power are bribed by the one that benefit from that and they are happy, both. On the expense of ordinary people in Serbia. It's the same in Hungary.
We build a pipeline dedicated to Gazprom. TANAP/TAP pipeline is less than 50km from our border. We would have more than one gas supplier and leverage to negotiate prices as Poland has. Isn't that influence? More than 30 years after 1989.
Geopolitics is about money. Or resources, which again is the same as money.
What if Ukraine has gas that can threatened the market of russia in Europe? I didn't say nothing about russian tanks in Hundary. Hungary plays against the EU lately and if EU was like russia it would have sent tanks there just like russia did in Ukraine.

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ku11a@reddit

Russia’s Influence in the Balkans | Council on Foreign Relations

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

What exactly are you trying to say?

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ku11a@reddit

The title says it all.
I'm not here to explain the content of this link to you, you'll have to do that yourself. If you don't understand the content, that's not my problem. I understand that people with an affinity for Russia don't like reading this. The fact that your Russian friends give you upvotes doesn't matter either.

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

This is what extremely dumb people think smart people sound like

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Fragrant-Loan-1580@reddit

The Balkans for the most part have been divided for a long time but it’s a issue that is unique to the Balkans. The rise of populism has divided many western countries as well, we’re just used to it at this point.

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StjepanBiskup@reddit

You don't know shit. We are culturaly different. Yes, language is the same, but there is a big difference between a sophisticated, wine drinking Croatian and the monkey tribe members of Bosnia or the evil goblins from Serbia.

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Seltzer100@reddit

Maybe I'm just ignorant AF, but how has Russia significantly negatively impacted more than a few Balkan countries in the past or nowadays?

Sure, if it's someone from Bulgaria, Serbia, Moldova or Romania who resents Russia, I get that. But beyond those few, is there really anyone else?

And even in those cases, it wasn't entirely Russian/Soviet fuckery to blame. Someone like Ceausescu was kinda extreme even by Soviet standards.

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krindjcat@reddit

I mean if we're divided we're divided by everyone. It's naive to think Russia somehow meddles less than the Western powers. The powerful countries manipulate the smaller countries, that's how it always was.

Look at the European community's outreach during the 80s towards individual Yugoslav states.

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megaprolapse@reddit

Never forget how russia send military equipment to croatia in the 90's

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Better to be influenced by the West, than the East. Of course it is normal for greater power to meddle with smaller countries. There is always a bigger fish. What is important is for these great powers not to do it in a bad way. Like Russia and their imperialistic goals.

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krindjcat@reddit

So you don't actually have a problem with us being divided, you just have a problem with Russia.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Russia divides us, not the West.

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krindjcat@reddit

That's just not true and you sound terribly naive. Did you come here to preach or to have a discussion?

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

I don't do a discussion with propaganda victims.

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TeshkoNas@reddit

Sanest Bulgarian political commentary

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COOLSICKAWESOME1@reddit

is this ragebait? you want to inform us poor “propaganda victims” that russia is controlling the balkan states but when we say “yeah probably but so is the west” u suddenly don’t discuss? ragebait used to be believable 😹😹

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I don't know about that. Let me think! I'm old enough to remember the times before 1989. I was conscripted in the army shortly after that. At that time we mainly have enemies around the borders. We were learning in school that all of our neighbors are enemies. The main defending forces and the main enemy was south as it was NATO at that time, but even our "friendly" socialist countries wasn't considered safe and although it wasn't that obvious the armed forces have means to defend the country from our socialist "friends".
Now is different. Not different but very different. We get along with Greece quite well even though we have rough history between us, and Romania and even Turkey, and basically all our neighbors.

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

Because you are bulgarians who are always the most loyal dogs, with USSR you asked to be admitted 6 times, and you had a bunch of non-ussr-aligned neighbours that you looked at with suspicion as the most loyal USSR dog.

Greece still has the same problems with their neighbours, especially with Turkey who is also in NATO, but also with macedonia and with albania.

Every country in the balkans has more enemies now than it did in 1980, it's just bulgarians that are blind to the problems and just happy to be included in NATO.

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Living-Advantage-605@reddit

nah bratha its our own fault

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-Against-All-Gods-@reddit

It's not just Russia, and there are no natural countries and borders.

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circleoftorment@reddit

Thank you OP for bringing enlightenment to these dark mountains of ours. May your glowing never stop.

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apexechoes@reddit

Listen here friend and listen good. While there might be some truth to your claim, a friendship, a partnership, a brotherhood, an alliance, is never built to last if it is built on the notion of an external evil or villain who is attributed the entire blame.

Because if Russia is entirely to blame, then the rest of us are perfect and squeaky clean, right? And we build our relationships on the assumption that we're all perfect. And that's too heavy a condition to survive because evil soon rears its ugly head.

Here you have it better than I could ever put it in words: "The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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Vasilije69@reddit

Stick to "boruto"

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Best anime ever. Did u finish the investigation?

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Vasilije69@reddit

Yes, it was enough

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Funny thing, I dont need to check up your profile, to assume negative things bout u, lol.

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Vasilije69@reddit

Not really that funny though

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Critical-Copy1455@reddit

Artificial conflicts? Oh, they were very real....

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Numantinas@reddit

By russia lmfaoo you people have worms in your brain. If anything russia is the only entity with an interest in a united balkans.

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sjedinjenoStanje@reddit

I think the Balkans are doing better now than at any point in the past.

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ptspallnight@reddit

Russia has about less centuries of existence than Balkans of division.

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Ready-Arm-2295@reddit

Russia freed you from the ottomans, pretty ungrateful ngl

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

I already told you - the road to hell is paved with good intentions. In this case the USSR. Why do u like USSR? Their shoddy engineers blew up Chernobyl. They devide every nation. They delete history and rewrite their own fake heroes.

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Ready-Arm-2295@reddit

I dont like USSR and I wish it never existed. But even then, I think you are overestimating USSR’s evilness - communism came to balkans because balkans invaded USSR, not the other way around (Bulgaria is partially an exception). I dont think balkans are divided because of the soviets - you killed each other way before that.

Also, I dont believe we ever spoke before, so idk what you mean by “I already told you”

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etnoexodus@reddit

OP forgot Russia and the West played on the same team up until 80 years ago

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Srsly? Lets go even further back. What about 150 years ago. Lets live in the past.

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etnoexodus@reddit

Well, the division in the Balkans did not happen last week, you know? Or did you forget to study history

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New-Interaction1893@reddit

I expect this post in this subreddit to have the same effect you would have by coming out as gay in an evangelical community.

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Joey_Jupiter@reddit

First of all the West divides the Balkans FAR more than Russia EVER has and second of all stop arguing with the massive amount of people correcting you. “I don’t argue with brainwashed people” is a cheap way to escape an argument you KNOW you can’t win. Fuck off dude…

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devjohn023@reddit

Partially true, but historically bombed (some were literally bombed) with propaganda from West to hate on the East, from East to oppose the "immoral/gay" West, and further corrupted by Chinese money lately. and I think some Arabic/muslim money is flowing into Albania and the other muslin balkans as well... so its not just Russia.

I completely agree that if all the Balkan countries including Turkey and Greece would collaborate like the DACH countries do to some extent (germany, austria, switzerland, south tyrol, lichtenstein), there would be a very powerful, diverse, culturally and mentality similar region, with resources (natural and human capital). Too bad the above mentioned DACH needed slaves for the last 100 years. But Poland and Romania seem to be doing a bit better, and I know a lot of people who made some money in the west and now are building back in romania (a house, a business, a farm). Time will bring Balkan people together when there will be a higher standard of living across the board.

Until then Aziz the King and florin Salam will continue playing "Saint Tropez" at parties...

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CroissantAu_Chocolat@reddit

Of course, it's always evil Russia's fault

It's always easier to blame someone else for your problems.

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edophx@reddit

There was a Union of Southern Slavs, was pretty successful too for a little while. But of course my imaginary friend and "culture" is better than your imaginary friend and "culture", so..... let's kill each other every few decades.

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Kitsooos@reddit

If you thinks it's only Russia and not the USA/UK you are delusional.
I would argue the Anglosaxons have been much more devisive than the Russians.
To a lesser extent even Turkey, China and Germany have stretched their stinky hands in the Balkans. Our positioning is just too good to be ignored by any super power or even aspiring/wannabe superpower.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Give me examples, please.

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FaibleEstimeDeSoi@reddit

Imagine the world where Russian emperors didn't get infatuated with panslavism and while still fighting Turkey did nothing to help balkan countries to get independence from it and Austria. Would it be better for Balkans? You can certainly argue that it would be better for Russia to not participate in WW1 or at least delay their participation.

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Andreuw5@reddit (OP)

Russia liberated countries only to enslave them in USSR communism. Which, to be fair, is far worse than Ottomans.

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Shelter_Individual@reddit

If you are a Muslim, which most probably you are Turkey is better than Russia. Actually, for you probably Turkey and Islam are the height of civilization. All of that hand chopping and Islamization are cool.

The good thing is that Europeans are finally waking up and not tolerating Islam anymore. Anyone who has a collective experience with Turkey, Islam or nations that gladly accepted Islam in Europe knows that there is no worse thing in this world than this totalitarian death cult that is incompatible with any form of secularism.

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Sea-Bend-5914@reddit

The Russians promised to create Greater Bulgaria and unfortunately many Bulgarians are upholding this idiotic ideology (looking at the remarks about North Macedonia)

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FaibleEstimeDeSoi@reddit

Russia was enslaved first so I don't think you can blame it on whole country. Bolsheviks came to power through force after losing the elections because they weren't popular.

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Plastic_Shop6274@reddit

Agree. Russia is the main villain on the Balkans. Covert or straight forward, these apes always interfere for the worst on the Balkans. I hope Serbia will wake up one day.

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

Explain

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

Maybe an example would be their desire to control the Bosporus Straits and everything in the way.

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

Bosforus Straight is litteral bottleneck for their navy, both military and civil.

USA created Panama state because of Panama canal, British controlled Egypt and went to war because of Suez canal.

How exactly that makes them EVIL?

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DocGerbill@reddit

How subjugating 5 nations just to not pay shipping taxes makes one evil you ask?

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Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit

I'm talking about Russia specifically. My point is - people here say that Russia is a villain, that Russia make Balkan people hate each other, etc, while I would say that in last 80 years Russia is least to blame for Balkan problems.

Also, I don't understand maritime law, but there is a difference between natural and artificial straights.

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Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit

Conquering other countries I think makes you pretty evil.

Also Black Sea isn't "their" sea, or their only way to access the world oceans. They dreamt to conquer Constantinople since they reached the Black Sea.

On the same principle I cpuld say we would feel much safer with Rusia not owning any land on the Black Sea, does it make it a valid claim for us to invade them and expel them back to Ural mountains?

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Sad-Notice-8563@reddit

Bulgarians on reddit are the most brainwashed EU fanatics, I guess leaving you out of shengen for 15 years trained you really good to be the most servile humans on earth.

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DocGerbill@reddit

Russia merely stokes a fire which has existed for a long time, the same fire others have stoked before it.

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BrotherCoa@reddit

I disagree and I will post why.
-Greeks hate the Turks because of Constantinople and east Anatolia. Plus they are at odds with Macedonians becasue of name and Albanians becasue of 'Great Albania' idea.
-Bulgarians hate Macedonians (I refuse to call them North, they are Macedonians to me) as they see them as part for their people stolen by Serbia and Greece. With everyone else they have ok relations even if historically they have lost a lot to all of their neighbours except the Turks.
-Albanians have clashes with all of their neighbours becasue of their 'Great Albania' dream that they still push as national idea. They are wrecking havoc in Macedonian politics and are in hate relation with Serbs over Kosovo and Presevo valley. They have good but tense relations with Greeks and Montenegrins because of 'Great Albania' but cannot do anything because of NATO membership all 3 countries have.
-Serbs and pretty much everyone else around them (notable exception being Montenegro, Hungary, Romania and Macedonia) are in odds becasue of history. Not including the 90's wars: with Croats over WW1 and WW2 and Jasenovo concentration death camp, with Bosnians and Albanians due to Muslim oppressions under Ottoman Empire and with Bulgaria over Macedonia and being the leader of the Slav people on Balkans.
-Bosnians main problem is 3 nations and 3 religions sharing one country and all 3 hating each other for one historical reason or another.

So saying that Balkan countries are divided becasue of Russia is showing true ignorance to history and understanding of said nations.

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