Can anyone here share stories of what life was like during the Yugoslav Wars? How has it changed since?
Posted by kaine_obrien@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 33 comments
Ever since learning of it (I was not alive for it, I was born in 1999) I have been fascinated with the Yugoslav wars. It just seemed like a purely tragic war where a whole nation of people didn’t care for their neighbor for the simple reason of being different than them and that they were only stopped from killing each other by the control of one man (Josip Bros Tito) and when he did finally pass away it was time to kill. I’m frankly baffled this war happened considering WW2 Happened roughly 50 years before and hit Eastern Europe and its people hard. You would’ve thought nobody would’ve wanted to fight a war and especially one built on nationalism and that perpetrated such evil acts.
It’s truly a perplexing and dark war to me that shows humanity’s dark side and how intolerant we can be to other types people. I think, at least in the western world, we have improved but I’m not sure how this has affected the Balkans and their society and I’d like to know more since I love learning about this war
Any input of the two questions is greatly appreciated :)
P.S. If I got anything incorrect about the war or my perception of the war please correct me
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Yugoslav wars consisted of wars between:
Since I am from Kosovo, I can tell you the killing of Albanians didn't start in the 90s. It had been ongoing for 200 years, even though people often forget that.
N64GoldeneyeN64@reddit
As if Serbs werent being killed in Kosovo by Turks and Albanians?
Erenik19@reddit
I'm very curious to know about this, because ( Honestly ) I'm not aware of that. Could you share more info ? ( Not trolling, I'm genuinely curious )
N64GoldeneyeN64@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara%C4%91or%C4%91e
The last two paragraphs are why the expulsion of Albanians occurred. They assisted the Ottomans in killing Serbs after the first Serbian Uprising
In 1870 Albanians again killed Serbs when moving to Kosovo and continued attacking them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Kosovo
Its a funny thing that Ottomans who took over Kosovo from Serbia and Serbian census records before that show very few Albanians living there. It wasnt until Serbia expelled them for aiding the Sultan for killing civilians that there was animosity
Erenik19@reddit
Ok, you do realize that in that time period there was a lot of migration's hapening. Serb's aswell.
Aswell :
Serbs who neglected to join the uprising were brutalized in equal measure. Males who could not produce an adequate excuse for why they were not fighting were killed and their houses torched.^([5])^([46]) While most of the rebels were Serbs, the Pashalik's Romani (Gypsy) residents, the majority of whom were Muslim, also fought on the rebel side.^([47]) Some Albanians also pledged allegiance to Karađorđe and fought on his behalf.
Incoming Albanian refugees to Kosovo who were expelled by the from the were involved in revenge attacks and hostile actions to the local Serb population.
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In short, Shit happened everywhere, but the scale and reasons that you mentioned, Again in my opinion cannot justify ethnic cleansing.
Please dont take it personal, I'm just giving you an argument as I'm very curious to know what someone who is from serbia's point of view aswell.
N64GoldeneyeN64@reddit
Is there any revolution that didnt punish people who either sympathized (or were thought to sympathize) with the oppressor? Russian, French, British even American revolutions are full of examples of people being mistreated, expelled or killed for not being full blown nationalists.
The difference is, the Albanians who were expelled went and attacked Serbs in Kosovo instead of going to (what would become) Albania or just living in peace. Then, when reprisals happen, they throw up their hands like “We are innocent”. The people today remember Albanians killing Serbs after NATOs “peace”. The Serbs killing Albanians in 1999 had fathers who remembered being attacked by them in 1943. Albanians who attacked them in 1943 remembered their fathers being attacked in 1914. Serbs in 1914 remember their fathers suffering at the hands of Albanians going back to the first Serbian Uprising.
There will never be peace when one side started a fight and now is trying to keep land they have through Nazi assisted genocide. The only peaceful solution is a 50/50 split where Serbia keeps the North and Albanians the south. I actually thought a split above the White Drina and extending Serbian control south to Kosovo Polje while extending Kosovos control to Albanian lands in Serbia would be an amendable division allowing both sides to keep alot of whats important to them without severely compromising eithers integrity. But that would be something men without other goals unlike Kurti would have to be elected to do. He is out to start a war
Erenik19@reddit
Ok, you do realize that in that time period there was a lot of migration's hapening. Serb's aswell.
Aswell :
Serbs who neglected to join the uprising were brutalized in equal measure. Males who could not produce an adequate excuse for why they were not fighting were killed and their houses torched.^([5])^([46]) While most of the rebels were Serbs, the Pashalik's Romani (Gypsy) residents, the majority of whom were Muslim, also fought on the rebel side.^([47]) Some Albanians also pledged allegiance to Karađorđe and fought on his behalf.
In short, Shit happened everywhere, but the scale and reasons that you mentioned, Again in my opinion cannot justify ethnic cleansing.
Please dont take it personal, I'm just giving you an argument as I'm very curious to know what someone who is from serbia's point of view aswell.
Incoming Albanian refugees to Kosovo who were expelled by the from the were involved in revenge attacks and hostile actions to the local Serb population.
Erenik19@reddit
Ok, you do realize that in that time period there was a lot of migration's hapening. Serb's aswell.
Aswell :
Serbs who neglected to join the uprising were brutalized in equal measure. Males who could not produce an adequate excuse for why they were not fighting were killed and their houses torched.^([5])^([46]) While most of the rebels were Serbs, the Pashalik's Romani (Gypsy) residents, the majority of whom were Muslim, also fought on the rebel side.^([47]) Some Albanians also pledged allegiance to Karađorđe and fought on his behalf.^([48])
In short, Shit happened everywhere, but the scale and reasons that you mentioned, Again in my opinion cannot justify ethnic cleansing.
Please dont take it personal, I'm just giving you an argument as I'm very curious to know what someone who is from serbia's point of view aswell.
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
In Zagreb we saw very little of the war. There were 2 air raids where we could hear the booms and many air raid warnings, plus one rocket attack at the very end which actually killed some people.
Life was kind of normal, with the feeling there is the war somewhere close, but you don't see it or feel it. People in uniforms on the streets sometimes. Everyone was like way more closer together than now.
You got the part with Tito wrong. When he passed away it was not "time to kill". He died in 1980. War broke out in 1991.
The chief reason for the war was power. Milosevic wanted to be Tito v2. Most people rejected the idea.
Flashy-Association69@reddit
I don't think they were alike at all, Tito promoted brotherhood/unity and ruled with a collective decentralised governance - it seemed like he wanted an equal footing for the interests of all ethnic groups while preventing nationalism.
Milosevic was authoritarian, divisive and wanted to consolidate power within Serbia all while promoting nationalism and exploiting ethnic tensions for political gain.
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
Tito was a communist dictator. Kind of like Kim in North Korea, but light. He chose a softer version of communism, let people live a bit better. Still, his army killed many war captives, his police was jailing people for telling jokes... it was not all flowers and fun. Go ask Albanians in Kosovo how equal treatment was and what "zdruzeni odredi" was (riot police from all Yu republics sent to suppress them with force).
Milosevic was nationality based, while Tito was ideology based. After Tito there was no single person with similar power. Milosevic wanted Tito-level of power, almost absolute power.
carpeoblak@reddit
Yes, they created a personality cult around some Russian agent claiming to be some Croat named Broz.
This guy spoke with such a Russian native accent in his old age, and never really spoke Serbian properly, because it wasn't his native language.
People in that communist country loved that dictator more than their own father - they were idiots.
When it comes to various nationalisms, I encourage you to look up the two armed incursions into Yugoslavia in the 1960s and 1970s by Australian citizens of Croat descent - the war didn't magically start in the 1990s, it was cooking for a very, very long time.
MLukaCro@reddit
Kajkavian Croatian sounds almost like Russian to me. That's probably why you think he had a Russian accent.
carpeoblak@reddit
Nah, it was Russian, not the northwest Croat dialect.
LjiljaB22@reddit
Brate jesi li popio lijekove??
carpeoblak@reddit
Ljiljana from Australia, let me give you some advice...
To stop being called Lđilđenna by the skips you have to be around, call yourself Lily or get your name changed at BDM to Liliana. Save yourself the heartache of multiple J in your name when you live among the 'stralci
... and stop smoking, it's bankrupting you with every puff.
pageunresponsive@reddit
The best book I read about that subject was "Before We Were Immigrants; So Long Yugoslavia". The book doesn't go into the war itself but draws a picture of the social and cultural situation in the pre-war period. The last part of the book deals with the post-war situation, mainly in Bosnia. This is a plot-driven story so you experience the atmosphere without being there.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
Creating yugoslavia was biggest mistake Serbia could make. We didn't need it then, we don't need it any time in future.
yugoslavia as it was has put everything under rug all monstroseties from ww1 and ww2. With total control of everything. If you think different, you are out. If you say i am Serb or Croatian, oh no no jail time to cleanse nationalism. You own something, no no, it's states now. Want to go to church. No no comunism is religion. Etc. Like today's China but worse.
How it was? In Serbia we didn't really felt war. All was cheap, weapons on all sides, you can do what ever you want. Freedom on next level
HeyVeddy@reddit
This is crazy, I normally expect this from a nationalist Croatian, but to hear a serb say it was worse than China? That you couldn't be Serbian or Croatian? If you think different you're out? Everything you own goes to the state?
OP, please disregard this person and ask in r/Yugoslavia for more legitimate results.
I am personally a fan of Yugoslavia, I can list numerous problems with Yugoslavia at the same time. But what this user posted here is quasi conspiracy theory.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
I don't know from which planet you have fallen. But here you go.
Killing of academic people (China didn't do that) : comunist have falsy accused and executed every single academic person who could be threat to them after they gain total control of county.
Nationalisation (China didn't do that) : taking everything from even normal people, what they have earned for generations, land, house, properties, companies, etc. Everything nationalized for gains of members of there group.
Saying i am Serb openly: claiming that you are not yugoslavian you would land in jail until they eather break you or you forget what you are. Number of people have been jailed for that reason. Some even know which you can google.
So if people from all sides Croatia, Serbia, BiH tell you it was bad, it was. And I stand by my words it was our (Serbian) biggest mistake we made in our history.
HeyVeddy@reddit
Yes, Killing of academics like slavoj Žižek who openly wrote criticism of Yugoslavia and lives to this day? Or the student protests in Croatia who got the constitution changed as they demanded?
Yugoslavia is famous for having an open market, you could buy private property or start a business or travel anywhere. China is famous for it's nationalization of industry and land, camps, slaughtering and police state, ffs mao alone did more evil than the ussr did yet somehow Yugoslavia is worse than China lmao
We have census statistics, I don't think people identified as Yugoslavs more than 7% ever in Yugoslavia, everyone else openly identified as serb, croat, Macedonian, etc
And not only does not everyone say Yugoslavia was bad, but you might be the only person who actually thinks it was worse than China.
I had to research and write too much on European political economy to even continue this though. I can't believe I allowed myself to get triggered about lies about a state that doesn't exist anymore
glavni1@reddit
but the yoghurt
MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit
Open market, maybe after Markovićs reforms.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
I was talking about freeing Kragujevac from germans and then falsy accusing academics to execute them. There is even some statistic, that communist killed more people in Serbia as the germans.
Lol 😂, tell me one name of private company in yugoslavia, only one! 🤣
In camparison with China, yugoslavia didn't have a single private company and China today has zillion.
Judging by votes you got, you are among 4 delulu people on planet who think yugoslavia was good (from Germany)
kaine_obrien@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the recommendation! Wasn’t aware this subreddit existed
nebojssha@reddit
Yeah, I agree, that person is probably delusional supporter of Serbian monarchy, or his family was clapped by communist for being rich AF.
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
You could be anything you wanted, but if you started expressing political ideas based on nationality (before 1991 elections) it could land you in jail.
HeyVeddy@reddit
I guess the question is what is political ideas based on nationality? If it means let our Republic do things entirely different than the others, then it kind of defeats the purpose of the federation they agreed on. For example there were student protests in Croatia that got the constitution changed. But if there were Croatian protests for Croatian nationalism, then it would be shut down for sure. Still, not sure where that isn't the case anywhere
Having it centralized in Belgrade was a decision they made, not defending it, but if you want to have a relatively planned economy you gotta pick some place. I suppose Sarajevo would have made sense, would be interesting to see how that would have changed things, if at all
Tony-Angelino@reddit
No, there were no extreme tensions between the nations, you could say without problems that you're Croat or Serb or whatever and you could move freely and safely throughout the country. Whoever says today otherwise is lying through their teeth. Nobody would mind really. I'm an older guy, have relations on many sides, have travelled through all corners - people were really welcoming, nice, a guest was a king in their house. People would make jokes about stereotypes about other nations, like Montenegrins being lazy or people from Bosnia being slow, but they were not malicious. And everyone could take a joke, ffs - not so many snowflakes like today, mortally wounded by smallest silly thing.
It was not like some fragile peace which Tito was holding together and when he died, it was open season. Mind you, he died in 1980. and shit hit the fan in 1991. After the war people see it just through the nationality prism, because that's how the federal state ended. But it's not how the dissolution started and it was not how the life problems in the country were set. The main problem in the country was political - the ability to express different way of political thinking, not expressing one's nationality. And it was the main problem because it covered the whole country, not just parts of it that might have wanted out or not. Then the second wide problem was the class issue. Which sounds funny in a country that should not have different classes. But it had - the elite, thanks to their political might kept the most lucrative positions (like running the companies) for themselves achieving the financial gain, of course, and wide majority of people hated them for it. That's the problem that persisted even after the dissolution of the joint state and is very alive in the region today. And then we come to the national problem, which wasn't that prominent throughout the whole country - that's why other people are posting here how people were surprised that it escalated quickly and they did not expect it (which is how I remember things too). I mean, we all felt something was happening, the cold was was ending etc. But it was more of a feeling it's going to happen along the social construct, how economy was structured, considering how increasingly lax rules were of late. Like, you were allowed to own a small private business etc - interpreted as small steps to dissolution of the socialist political system.
Anyway, there were some dissonances in Slovenia and Croatia regarding membership in the federation and the conditions under which they entered. I remember we learned about it in school (at least in Croatia, where I went to school), so it wasn't hidden. But it was pointed out that it happened in previous state, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, when not so rosy things happened. The official policy was, that in current federation people remained out of their free will. I have to admit, I never felt or heard widespread talks about independence or whatever. There were some other problems described above. There were people in Croatia who were in partisan movement, who wanted to live in, then socialist republic. And there were also people who were on the losing side after WW2. So it wasn't really the situation where every Croat was secretly united in a rebellion or whatever and just waited to jump. That's just bullshit, even if today's schoolbooks describe it so romantically. Schoolbooks are written by political establishments in every country in every moment of history, the way they want the history to be seen. There were a national movement in Croatia in the late 60s, early 70s, called the Croatian Spring. Which started because of the money, as usual, where reformist and conservative fractions of the party collided. The whole issue was about financially helping (or not) other republics, which were not doing so good. I mean, we see the same argument even today in federations (democracies!) when the money gets tight - "we earned this money, it should stay here". And it escalated slowly from that point until it was shut down.
Fast forward to the 90s. Communism fell, free elections were there. Issues with the communist elite class seemed gone, problems around voicing other political thinking also gone, obviously. Almost all new political options were nationalist. The more they distanced themselves from the previous regime meant there were more suited for the job in their eyes. Some of them went to extremes, following this logic. Felt similar to the rise of populists today - it's easy to spread fear in people and offer yourself as a sole saviour, playing on division between people. The loudest options won and it escalated quickly. Hence the surprise of (the most of) the people when it happened.
Divljak44@reddit
I was a kid back then, and I had 3 close calls, minutes and centimetres disiding that I live
maci69@reddit
Parents were not even 14 when it started. Not many exciting stories since they were too young to fight and are from part of Croatia that was as far away from the frontline as possible for such a small country.
Still, many of friends and family left for the war, and mom said one shell shocked soldier returning home pulled a gun on her. She'd go to bars, and returning soldiers would drink alcohol there... You can imagine what that's like. She described poverty and hunger, and trucks with humanitarian aid.
Dad's family were more affluent. There was an arms embargo, so there was a huge weapons smuggling network into the country. Dad got to shoot East German Kalashnikovs at 14.
For me who was born in 2000. - I get to live in a country where basically an entire generation (couple of generations, maybe) has some form of PTSD
Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit
This is how it was in Romania:
Serbia was embargoed and romanians were selling illegally fuel to the serbs :))
We even have a song about it, some lyrics say: https://youtu.be/zF7eipv7CsU
God please hold the Danube so I can go in Serbia, so I can cross the fuel on the boat to earn a mark (german currency) They beated and tied me, they confiscated my fuel, God if I won't die now I will buy a ship.
jaznam112@reddit
I was born in 94. But i have a story. Im Croatian, my grandfather from my mothers side is a Serb. My grandma told me what it was like on the day of the war. Nobody expected or knew it would happen, she wanted to go from her job to her home because she heard the war is starting, she couldnt because armed men started to conglomerate on some checkpoints in the villages surrounding Karlovac. She talked to a friend and neighbour who drove them on some other less known road and she got home. I think my grandpa was already there, since that part of the village was serbian, Serbian army already came and swooped all of the Serbs from the village to get them out. Now the interesting part. They were in the woods near the village, the soldiers unpacked and assembled mortars i think. She heard the soldiers talking. One of them said it was said they are going on a practice but when they got across the border everyone knew what was happening.
Thats all i remember from the story.
Im from eastern part of Zagreb and as far as i remember from some older people i know, air raids were not that uncommon.