Why Is Polygamy Prohibited in Liberal Countries?
Posted by Still_Ice4319@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 136 comments
I recently read about the philosophy of liberal governance, and I found it quite appealing. However, I have some questions about areas where liberal countries still seem to derive their laws from religious traditions, such as Christianity.
Why is the individual not given the freedom to have multiple spouses, regardless of whether they are male or female? I understand that engaging in multiple consensual relationships is legally allowed as long as it is voluntary and not tied to prostitution. But my question is specifically about polygamy—why are people forced to marry only one person? Even if all parties involved in the relationship agree to the arrangement, why is polygamous marriage still prohibited?
HooiserBall@reddit
The best case I’ve heard against polygamy was a utilitarian one. Suppose the 10% men in a society on average have 3 wives because they can afford it.
That means the 30% of men in that system will have little possibility of getting a wife. When you get a large enough population of sexually deprived men, violently burning that system is appealing.
Subtle_Demise@reddit
Sexually deprived men is what we have now in our Western, nearly exclusively monogamous society. There are guys out there being turned down by prostitutes.
HooiserBall@reddit
What percentage of men in the West are sexually deprived vs the Middle East?
Psychological-Bed-92@reddit
Idk. I live in Utah near quite a few polygamists and see some of those women in the supermarket. There’s not a chance in hell that situation is by their choice.
I also have a buddy who was one of the abandoned boys from the Warren Jeffs stuff and it destroyed him mentally and emotionally. Real weird stuff pops up around polygamy.
Now, do I believe that should be up to the government? Probably not, but I would like to see better protections and resources for men and women escaping those situations.
Culturally, fuck em
foreverNever22@reddit
That's because it's illegal and thus pushed underground. If they were allowed to live their lifestyle out in the open maybe they could have some autonomy.
And if two, three, or eight adults want to consent to something who are we to override that?
Praetorian_Panda@reddit
You aren’t considering the family and local community dynamics that basically force people into polygamy or risk them being abandoned on the side of the road. Even if it was legal and any individual’s choice, People would be forced in that don’t want to be.
foreverNever22@reddit
Okay that's a community problem not a polygamy problem.
You're making the EXACT SAME arguments people made against gay marriage "look at the communities! People will be forced to participate!".
Someone getting married without consent is the problem, not polygamy.
Praetorian_Panda@reddit
Well yeah, polygamy is a tool a community uses to control people. Polygamy is fine if all parties involved are consenting in theory, just in real life practice it is almost never like that.
How you deal with a community/cultural issue like that is an entirely different debate.
Sea_Journalist_3615@reddit
lol you got owned hard.
foreverNever22@reddit
So is monogamous marriage....
This is soooo much similar to prostitution, prohibition is only making it underground and unsafe.
vandaalen@reddit
People all around the world have different moral reasoning and emphasize different aspects. Who would have thought?
The West puts much emphasize on individualism and the individual. Other cultures don't think that way and emphasize the well-being of the many over the individual. None is inherently better.
uberprodude@reddit
This could be true of monogamy too. Look at arranged marriages (not all arranged marriages are like this). However in the west there are more protections against forced/coerced weddings so the same protections would apply against polygamy
narwi@reddit
That was not the case back when it was legal and is unlikely to be the case should it ever again become legal in Utah.
foreverNever22@reddit
So do you believe that's also true for prostitution? Why should the government be involved in marriage at all?
tinycole2971@reddit
This sounds like it's more an issue with religion than with polygamy itself.
Thencewasit@reddit
That kind of stuff happens in normal marriages as well. How many school shooter and rapist don’t come from polygamy?
Like there are millions spent every year dealing with childhood trauma that it doesn’t seem to be an issue with polygamy.
It would be interesting to compare, but your data sets would likely be to small for polygamy.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
Tax reasons. Remember marriage affects your tax status. Allowing polygamy would create larger tax loopholes. Plus divorce is already messy. Imagine trying to navigate a divorce of only 2 of 5 partners.
foreverNever22@reddit
That's exactly why the government shouldn't be involved in marriage.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
Agreed
JBCTech7@reddit
my libertarian self is conflicting with my Christian self in this instance.
having multiple wives is degenerate. I've never met a woman who thought having multiple husbands would be appealing.
Also...I benefit a lot from marriage tax credit and child tax credit.
I don't know.
Lastfaction_OSRS@reddit
Is having multiple wives that degenerate in the Christian faith? Jews in the old testament had many wives. David had 8, Solomon was married to half the women in kingdom of Judea while the other half were his concubines (this is hyperbole).
The Romans were the ones who tried to disincentivize polygamy in Judea when the Roman Empire took control of the region. Jesus mostly agreed with the Roman stance, but as far as I know, the new testament only strictly forbades polygamy for church leaders. Not to get into a theological debate though. I wouldn't practice polygamy either. One woman's nagging is enough in my life and I can't imagine two or three or any more than that.
Humanity_is_broken@reddit
If you think having multiple wives is “degenerate”, then don’t do it for yourself. There might be people out there who were more receptive of the idea. These folks should be allowed to engage in marriage, with consent, the way it works for them.
JBCTech7@reddit
i won't. thanks.
That doesn't mean you can't.
Humanity_is_broken@reddit
What???
I’m just pointing out that people have different backgrounds, beliefs and traditions, all of which should be respected. It doesn’t even have to do with my preference.
In case disentangling this is too challenging for your brain, I subscribe to neither christianity nor polyamory. Thanks!!!
Subtle_Demise@reddit
Degenerate...to whom, exactly?
Noveno@reddit
"I've never met a woman who thought having multiple husbands would be appealing".
Of course not.
But millions of women through history found appealing to share a man that they considered worthy.
It's not symmetrical, like anything in the intersex dynamics.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
The child tax credit isn't profitable. Children cost more than the credit. Also the marriage tax benefit is only when your incomes are unequal.
JBCTech7@reddit
of course its not profitable, but an extra 3g per kid per year isn't unwelcome.
And my wife is a SAHM, so the marriage credit is super helpful too.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
That 3k per kid would be a net loss unless you're neglecting them
JBCTech7@reddit
no its definitely a loss...but what're you gonna do?
I wouldn't pay taxes if i could get away with it.
DrElvisHChrist0@reddit
That's why you put the terms of termination into the contract.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
That can still be a nightmare to negotiate especially so when you add on parties after the fact. If all parties are getting married at the same time, it's easier but still complicated. If Parties A, B, C get married and add parties D, and E later that can get messy. Because now the assets of A, B, and C get diluted to also include D, and E and figuring that out is a big ordeal.
Sure you could try to make prior assets non-dilutable but there's a reason that basic business wisdom says to NEVER issue non-dilutable shares. They call it "The Ratchet", it only ever tightens.
PirateBrail@reddit
One of the best takes I've learned in this sub is the libertarian position against legalizing/intertwining marriage and state/laws. It was brought up in an argument regarding gay marriage.
The point in question: who the fuck does the state think it is to regulate who or how many people I can marry?
Marriage shouldn't be regulated in any way. If the state wants to do it for tax purposes, then just change tax declarations to allow people to declare their joined income or whatever, regardless of marriage or living arrangements.
foreverNever22@reddit
Yeah I agree, the government shouldn't be involved in marriages whatsoever.
And it's bullshit the government tries to control our behavior through tax incentives like marriage tax backets, mortgage tax breaks, etc.
Misra12345@reddit
Marriage, in the eyes of the state, is a legal contract....... No one is forcing you to get your marriage notarised. You have to go out of your way to involve the state in your marriage. This is 100% voluntary.
DrElvisHChrist0@reddit
Unless you live in a place where they recognize common law marriage and/or palimony.
Misra12345@reddit
In what way does that change what I said?
GigaGrozen@reddit
If you separate in a common law marriage, the state government can and will enforce their system for the division of property and the state will decide where any children will go (if the other partner involves the government, obviously). You're pretty much right but if you live in a common law state like I do the state government can get involved in something that quite frankly isn't any of their business.
foreverNever22@reddit
Well the government shouldn't be involved either way, they just fuck everything up. Marriage would be so much more pure without the government sticking their nose in there.
Misra12345@reddit
The government doesn't "stick their nose" into marriages. People voluntarily involve the government so that they can get certain benefits. By all means criticise the government but just pause and think for a second.
MysticalWeasel@reddit
And don’t forget tax deductions for having children.
MetaCognitio@reddit
Really the government is likely more against polygamy than gay marriage for the simple reason that you end up with lots of left over men that aren’t incentivized to contribute to society.
Some of the women will share men who are a higher status than them and lots of men end up left out of family.
Two men or women marry and it’s a bit of a wash.
regulationinflation@reddit
Yet the government has created a monogamous system with lots of left over men that aren’t incentivized to contribute to society.
MetaCognitio@reddit
The government didn’t do that. The legal system made marriage a bad deal for men when divorce happens.
regulationinflation@reddit
I’m not referring to marriage/divorce causes, there’s many factors, often caused by poor government decisions.
Subtle_Demise@reddit
I was about to say, that sounds a lot like what we have now. It's the worst it's ever been in history.
PirateBrail@reddit
Makes sense, never thought of that. Didn't change my opinion, but indeed made me think. Thanks
MetaCognitio@reddit
I heard a lot of the Taliban is left over men. Can’t confirm this 100%.
A surplus of men not attached to society is not good. Violence/unrest is probably coming soon. I can’t imagine this economic climate with a huge surplus of men and them not rioting to change things.
Trypt2k@reddit
It's one of the key points of Christian monogamy.
PirateBrail@reddit
Adding another layer of meaning to this. "You're leftover men, with no women. Die for our cause, and you'll have 70 something virgins waiting for you in heaven.
Man, being libertarian does make you make sense of every single ideology out there. I love being this logical.
fatevilbuddah@reddit
This right here. The only reason the government cares is taxes, though having 4 or 5 wives, even 2, God forbid you need a health care decision made and there is a disagreement. Who gets covered by company medical, crap like that is the other reason, but honestly that's easy to fix.
Rare_Tea3155@reddit
You can marry whoever you want. Whether or not the state recognizing the marriage for tax benefits is a different story.
onlyexcellentchoices@reddit
I just explained this to some folks on the Catholicism subreddit and I think I got some traction
PirateBrail@reddit
Saw your comments. I think the ones who responded negatively to you were thinking along the lines of "if I don't declare I'm married, then how will the state divide our property if we get divorced?" Which would be an easily solvable question if you just declare something like "we live together and share everything" not including marriage. But what can you expect of people that don't tend to think a lot about rights as an individual.
onlyexcellentchoices@reddit
I am seeing more and more libertarian minded Catholics like myself. It's still a hard sell for some people, religious or not.
PirateBrail@reddit
There's a deeply religious guy in my country called Renato38, a radical "classical liberal" (in Frederic bastiat terms, I believe) that makes this link between Christianism and libertarianism in an astounding rhetoric. You should check him out
onlyexcellentchoices@reddit
Thank you I will look this up.
PirateBrail@reddit
He speaks in Portuguese only. Reach out if you need translation
apwbDumbledore@reddit
you mean except for children marrying…
PirateBrail@reddit
Ofc, ofc
Legal age exists
regulationinflation@reddit
No one is “forced” to marry by the government in this context.
Why do people pretend they don’t know what forced means these days?
PeterNjos@reddit
I think you answered your own question, because they come from Christian traditions. There is also a secular argument about protecting women (obviously debatable) and a modern feminist viewing a male having more than one wife as a subservient life for those women. Also the practical issues of avoiding complex legal situations in the cases of divorce or death in custody and inheritance. There are many today that still argue from a secular viewpoint, and believe that a nuclear family with one father and mother is the healthiest for a child's development.
drebelx@reddit
Ignores the rest of the world with monogamy.
PeterNjos@reddit
Relaaax anti-Christian redditor. It's because OP was asking about countries with "liberal governance" which is almost entirely made up of cultural Christian countries.
drebelx@reddit
Asking to look at the rest of the world to see the commonality of the tradition of monogamy is anti-Christian?
"Liberal governance," a fairly subjective sounding term, is defined how?
PeterNjos@reddit
"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property and equality before the law."
drebelx@reddit
I will accept that definition.
Still_Ice4319@reddit (OP)
But this goes against what I understood—that liberalism grants freedom to everyone, refrains from interfering in their personal decisions, and does not derive its laws from religion. Otherwise, the system would turn into a theocracy.
ConscientiousPath@reddit
Liberalism is the idea of freedom for everyone. That we call some nations "liberal" doesn't mean any of them actually achieved total freedom.
But also, total freedom doesn't mean that society will continue to exist if too many people do stupid things at once. Polygamy is one of those things that, if chosen en masse, which will absolutely destroy society. The birthrate goes down overall, violence goes up (either locally, or externally if the men are exported, sent to die in war, or demoralized to the point of frequent self-deletion)
So as a matter of practicality in applying the theory, liberalism is less about "total freedom for everyone to do anything," and more about moving from rigid government enforcement. Instead the smaller scale of local culture and community is where mistakes get made, and people who see problems ahead of time can more easily leave for better places before the implosion.
Necessary-Bad-8567@reddit
Anti-polygamous arguments aren't entirely rooted in religious thought, although Christianity is correct to condemn it.
The institution of marriage historically arose to moderate the responsibilities tied to childbearing, as sex and thus relationships can lead to the creation of dependent human lives. In order to protect children and ensure stable family structures, laws guide these relationships.
Polygamy, most often involving one man with multiple wives, presents challenges similar to the ones found in single-parent households. It specifically mimics the structure of the single-mother household. A man in a polygamous structure has to divide his material and emotional resources among many partners and children, which weakens the stability and psychological support that is absolutely critical for positive child outcomes. Vast amounts of data consistently show that children fare better in stable, two-parent households. The nuclear family structure prioritizes the well-being of both the mother and children.
Still_Ice4319@reddit (OP)
Having sexual relationships with multiple partners is legally permitted and does not weaken family bonds, but marrying them suddenly becomes a catastrophe.
Lord_Vxder@reddit
It absolutely weakens family bonds. You don’t really know what you are talking about 😐.
Muandi@reddit
Yes marriage comes with numerous legal obligations (there are literally thousands of laws and regulations which confer some kind of privilege to married people eg tax filing, spousal visitation rights etc( and in the case of polygamy, a higher number per family unit which increase the likelihood of poverty
Necessary-Bad-8567@reddit
I don't understand what you're saying here, can you elaborate?
Still_Ice4319@reddit (OP)
What I mean is that engaging in sexual relations without marrage with multiple girlfriends is considered legal and acceptable, as it falls under personal freedom in liberal countries.
However, marrying multiple girl is regarded as a serious crime in these countries and is not recognized as a form of protected freedom.
Isn't this a contradiction?
Necessary-Bad-8567@reddit
I don't think rampant promiscuity is good for society and should be socially condemned and discouraged.
I also think marriage should be reserved for people who have children. Outside of that, it should be a civil union. It should be easy to leave a relationship when no children are involved. It should be harder in most circumstances for people to dissolve one when children are involved.
Hot_Most5332@reddit
Call it science then. Polygamy results in a significant portion of women flocking to a small number of men. If you don’t have something like a war, then you end up with a lot of men who cannot find a partner because someone else has 8.
Most women prefer monogamy, but even if only 10% of women get married in polygamous relationships (particularly closed ones), then approximately 10% of men will not have a partner available. Having an oversupply of horny men is never a good thing.
Still_Ice4319@reddit (OP)
By your own logic, having an excess of men who drink alcohol or smoke is never a good thing, so why not ban alcohol or smoking?
vandaalen@reddit
What are you even trying to do here? You asked why it is forbidden and now you are trying to argue with people giving you an answer as if those were their own worldviews. LOL
vandaalen@reddit
As can be observed in the modern dating world with online apps.
hokiedungeondelver@reddit
People with deeply held religious beliefs cannot take them off when they wish. (That is not to say that they do not fall short of those beliefs and struggle to uphold their doctrines or even interpret their religion completely.)
When these people go to make laws, they are not going to pass a law that they, due to their religion, believe is an abomination or evil or whatever term you want to use.
Ariakkas10@reddit
Wait, are you claiming liberal countries don’t live up to their ideals? Well shit man, how far back has this gone? We should start a petition
bell37@reddit
It also is not beneficial to the government. There is a decent chunk of welfare fraud from polygamist families. Because women are essentially encouraged not to work, you only have 1-2 people trying to provide in a household of +10 people. Unless if the providers of the household are millionaires, it’s only going to end up being a burden to the taxpayer
TManaF2@reddit
This also happens in large monogamous families. About a decade ago, there was a big scandal about this happening in one of the local Chassidic communities...
PeterNjos@reddit
Yeah big time fraud. If you're ok with defrauding the govt, it's actually pretty brilliant and economical getting the govt benefits from like 4 single mothers with a boatload of kids who might not be working while the man brings in a decent paycheck.
b37478482564@reddit
It’s not just Christianity that does this.
Humans are generally monogamous in a modern society even if irreligious. For example, in China, they’re monogamous and even in the Middle East where polygyny is allowed (men can have several wives but women can only have 1 man), most couples are monogamous and many women would not be interested in their husband having additional wives.
It’s a biological thing + social. I studied biological anthropology at school and can get into way more depth but essentially women want the most resources they can get and will choose a man with 10 potatoes and share him with a woman if she still nets more potatoes than if she were to only get 1 potatoes with a single man, these “less wealthy” men have in turn evolved to demonstrate other great qualities to ensure he doesn’t have to share these women. It’s an over simplification but it illustrates my point.
This is seen in modern society where wealthy men all around the world have multiple wives / girlfriends / bimbos similar to harems / concubines in the past whereas those couples who are monogamous, generally will be in a similar socioeconomic background.
TManaF2@reddit
Years ago, I remember reading either in The Smithsonian or Natural History about a population in Nepal that practices (or practiced) confraternal polyandry - that is to say, a young girl (around the age of 12) married all the brothers of a family. The reason was that otherwise, the plots of land would be so small that none of the brothers would be able to survive, much less raise a family. The article mentioned that when the adolescent came of age to bear children, it was often one of the older brothers who was the father of [all] her children (so I guess it's not as purely polyandrous as one might think from the original description).
PeterNjos@reddit
Good stuff!
Silence_1999@reddit
I think the nuclear family is big. Just personally. While I could care less about gay marriage or polygamy. Still I have doubts about child should be raised in situations like two gay men raising a little girl. Still better than an orphanage for a child to my mind but even then maybe not. Is that really the best place for a young child with no female role model? Well I have doubts. Polygamy sorta the same. We have plenty of gay couples and have for a long time now around me, polygamy and trans are not nearly as common. Well I guess everyone is a closet trans according to the democrats but we won’t get into that lmao. See my Christian upbringing is deeply ingrained even though I dropped it as soon as I was allowed to make up my own mind about worshipping a god.
vandaalen@reddit
There are actual numbers available which I am too lazy to look up now, but basically a child (especially boy raised in all female households are at statistically relevant disadvantages while mixed households are golden and all male households loose to them just by a relatively small margin.
Silence_1999@reddit
My comment didn’t cover every eventuality of combinations but yes I have seen similar.
PeterNjos@reddit
Interesting take, and I agree with it a lot. When I was young, it was considered a tragedy (although sometimes necessary) when a child grew up without a mom or dad, but now society doesn't blink when this happens (either a single parent household or two same sex parents).
ledoscreen@reddit
Probably for the same reasons that so-called ‘victimless crimes’ also exist. It is favourable to the authorities in one way or another.
iggybdawg@reddit
There is a theory floating around that polygamous societies have a side effect of more (involuntarily) sexless men, who are more easily radicalized into being violent mobs.
ledoscreen@reddit
I take it you mean polygyny, not polygamy in general.
Rock2D2@reddit
It also helps serve as a bulwark against indoctrination and coercion marriages.
YardChair456@reddit
I think this is where libertarianism butts up against what is a societal good. Christianity is against polygamy because it is culturally destructive as well as a bunch of other things that we allow. I dont really know what the solution is, but it seems like freedom is going to destroy what is good.
ConscientiousPath@reddit
Only if you think that law and government are the only/best ways to enforce important and helpful cultural norms. I think the nuclear family is very important, but I don't think the state is either required or optimal to get it.
YardChair456@reddit
I hear you and agree but I dont know what the solution is. If we dont have some kind of common moral culture then things will break apart.
bravehotelfoxtrot@reddit
Was it Bastiat who made a statement something like: “a moral society is a prerequisite for a free society?” Can’t remember where I read that, but I think it applies here.
People—not freedom, religion, government, law, whatever—build and destroy things. Freedom et al. are tools that people will use for good or evil in whatever ways they can. Law or use of force, while maybe able to keep an immoral society on a decent track for a time, is ultimately incapable of upholding “societal good,” however you’d like to define it. Either enough people choose to live in ways that are conducive to societal good, or they don’t. Though certainly not perfect, liberty is probably the best enabler of the adaptation and survival of societal-good-producing practices.
YardChair456@reddit
Yeah that probably is the lynch pin for everything that we need to be a moral people. I think that freedom now leads in two different direction that are opposed to each other.
TellThemISaidHi@reddit
From a pure libertarian position, it's allowed as long as the NAP is followed.
But as laws begin to intertwine with more facets of daily life, polygamy becomes problematic for government.
Who gets to drop off/pick up the kids at a government/public school? If a husband and two of the wives were working, and the other 2 wives stayed home and homeschooled, the government indoctrination centers would collapse.
Are five people making a decision when someone is unconscious in the hospital? Who is the one person who makes the final call?
Who gets access to banking accounts?
All of these situations can be addressed by the free market. But government would prefer everyone to fit in a uniform box.
Still_Ice4319@reddit (OP)
The liberal countries that developed modern technology, enriched uranium, and established the modern global economy cannot pass laws to legalize polygamy!
ConscientiousPath@reddit
Modern technology was not created because of the state. Even nuclear energy wasn't invented by the state, but merely regulated and controlled by it so early that it hadn't been commercialized yet.
Similarly the modern global economy primarily succeeds in spite of the state's meddling. More trade was enabled by technology, not by government planning.
Last_Construction455@reddit
Is it illegal? There’s all those shows about men with multiple wives. Haven’t seen anyone mention the issue with marrying children. A lot of these closed religious communities end up having elders marrying under aged children using polygamy as justification.
ConscientiousPath@reddit
Some places ban legally marrying a 2nd person, but adultery is legal pretty much everywhere at this point. So if you see a polygamous marriage, it's usually a legal marriage to the first wife and a not-legally-recognized set of ritualized promises to the others.
ConscientiousPath@reddit
The short answer is as you note, cultural taboo and religion that extant societies haven't been libertarian enough to remove the laws about. But the law really isn't the important thing in this case.
The longer answer is that it's selection bias of stable societies sticking around. Monogamous mating makes for a stable society while polygamous mating, without strong mitigating factors, makes for an unstable society. The instability comes from the fact that humans have an approximately 50/50 sex ratio, so in polygamy a bunch of men won't have any serious mating prospects. They're typically young and when the situation becomes clear, extremely angry.
Historically the excess of young men have been killed in wars and fighting, or shunned/excommunicated from their home society into the larger world (Mormons and some Islamic states), while the de facto polygamy was also restricted to the extremely rich.
Today with stable monogamous relationships at arguably an all time low in western culture, but not primarily because of polygamy. Instead we have a sort of serial monogamy where the cliche is that many monogamous couples divorce, the man often remarries a younger woman while the older woman often single. The result is still a lot of sexually disenfranchised younger men. These single men are sedating themselves with porn and modern weapons grade home entertainment (largely video games), though that has been much less effective at avoiding societal instability.
Ultimately in any society where women have the nominal right to decide whom they marry or sleep with, it's up to women's collective choice of cultural norms whether we get a stable monogamous society, or an unstable polygamous society that self deletes. Unfortunately any significant minority of women can spoil it for the rest if they choose to share popular men, or to swear off the available men altogether. Because even if most women remain monogamous, we may still have enough disenfranchised men to cause significant problems.
This doesn't have to be accomplished through law, and as libertarians we view the law as a bad way to try. But it does have to be done somehow, so on the spectrum of bad things government does it's pretty low priority to legalize it. Aside from law, it's usually been some combination of women shaming other women if they aren't relatively chaste, low social status for sex workers and sluts, severe reputation or legal penalties for adultery etc.
Billy_Bob_Thompson@reddit
I think it’s this way because polygamy usually isn’t see as compatible with western culture for various reasons, the main one being like you said the practices of Christianity.
b37478482564@reddit
Humans are generally monogamous in a modern society even if irreligious. For example, in China, they’re monogamous and even in the Middle East where polygyny is allowed (men can have several wives but women can only have 1 man), most couples are monogamous and many women would not be interested in their husband having additional wives.
It’s a biological thing + social. I studied biological anthropology at school and can get into way more depth but essentially women want the most resources they can get and will choose a man with 10 potatoes and share him with a woman if she still nets more potatoes than if she were to only get 1 potatoes with a single man, these men have in turn evolved to demonstrate other great qualities to ensure he doesn’t have to share these women. It’s an over simplification but it illustrates my point.
This is seen in modern society where wealthy men all around the world have multiple wives / girlfriends / bimbos similar to harems / concubines in the past whereas those couples who are monogamous, generally will be in a similar socioeconomic background.
Ehronatha@reddit
In non-modern societies, humans are slightly polygynous, meaning some high-ranking men will be able to afford more than one wife/concubine, while some low-ranking men will not be able to find wives.
We also know that women tend to selectively prefer the top 20% of men. We know this for sure because of modern dating apps. There's all kinds of discussion about this on the internet right now.
That is how humans "naturally" are. If given the choice, a large percentage of women would choose to be one of multiple wives if it gave them access to a high-status man. The thing preventing men from having multiple wives is ultimately the ability to afford it.
Lots of societies have figured out that this arrangement is 1. is bad for children, 2. is bad for low-status men, and 3. causes certain legal headaches.
Therefore they have banned polygamy as form of social engineering that has winners and losers, but whose results are a net positive for social stability.
Interestingly, one of those highly successful societies was Ancient Rome. When the Roman Empire ultimately adopted Christianity, which also had a tradition of monogamy, monogamy became the only acceptable model in the West.
bassabassa@reddit
Polygamy is coercive almost 100 percent of the time. It exists throughout the world where resources are so scare if a man can provide for multiple wives he can and should, that is where any mutual benefit ends for the women.
Sex work is another situation where this is true. I work extensively with sex workers in the third world and encounter polygamy quite often, these issues all go into the same bag as child-marriages and female genital mutilation in my personal opinion.
doitstuart@reddit
It's not. As many people can live with one another as they like and have contracts between them as individuals or in any way they choose. What you can't do is call it marriage.
The problem isn't that anything is forbidden--it's not--it's that the state still remains the final arbiter of legal marriage, and that in some jurisdictions the state forcibly marries couples who have cohabited for a certain period of time by applying marital property law to them, unless they specifically opt out.
Frankly, I don't know why any "polygamist" would care.
fu_man_cthulhu@reddit
I don't know the academic argument, I think just it's one of those things that just isn't good for a society.
NewThink@reddit
This is sort of a post hoc justification, rather than the historical reason modern democracies don't allow polygamy, but observations of polygamist cults like the FLDS and others show a real dystopia. Rich men wind up with a huge number of wives, subsequently generating an underclass of poorer young men without marital prospects. These men often leave the compounds, or sometimes are even forced out by the policies of the wealthy elite. It applies the worst aspects of capitalism to the marriage "market," and treats women like chattel. AFAIK, polygamy has never been tried in a modern, egalitarian sense where men and women are each free to have more than one spouse.
Phantasmidine@reddit
It's too complicated and too open for abuse in the context of government regulation and the tax/economic benefits of being legally married.
globulator@reddit
Used to be for moral and religious reasons, now it's because it would make collecting taxes from you more difficult.
I'm very much against polygamy as a lifestyle choice, but who fucking cares what I think? I have no business commenting on any particular person's marriage and neither do bureaucrats in DC.
Frequent-Try-6746@reddit
I don't know the exact reason. But I also have never heard of a polygamous marriage that didn't include a cult and child marriage. So maybe the link is enough to outlaw the practice? I don't know.
Agora_A@reddit
Extreme mistrust of polygamous religions (Mormons) early on in America. But legally they probably can’t discriminate like that if it was ever challenged
pjenn001@reddit
Most polygamy is based on strict religious doctrine. It is always in favor of the male. It's not really a liberatian polygamist relationship.
bruce_fenton@reddit
It is sort of inconsistent that three gay men can be married in a “thruple” in California and this is celebrated as diverse but Muslims who’ve had a religious acceptance of multiple wives in many countries for centuries are not allowed.
The libertarian position should be that government stays entirely out of the marriage business and that consenting adults should be able to marry whoever they want and under whatever terms they want.
Ramblinman187@reddit
Exactly. Shouldn't be the government's business nor regulated by a government
narwi@reddit
Spouses also need to be equal in a marriage, so for that to held and polygamy to be possible, the marriage would need to be of all the spouses to all the other spouses.
MART0CH@reddit
Because it’s icky and weird… duh.
Still_Ice4319@reddit (OP)
You can follow any sexual orientation freely in liberal countries; you can even be masochistic and have a woman lead you like a dog in the streets. All of this is considered freedom. But polygamy? How strange is that!
Kutharos@reddit
3.As others said, overall people are monogamous regardless of creed/race./ religion. It seems that it's a human trait and societies that embrace it don't seem to survive that long.
akcattleco@reddit
Taxes!!
Montananarchist@reddit
At the root of almost all laws is jealousy. In the case of polyamory, the laws are written and passed by the fat, stupid, and ugly members of society who get pissed when there aren't any chicks/guys available to them.
DrElvisHChrist0@reddit
Because what are supposed to be secular cultures and governments, really aren't. They play into their Judeo-Christian bias of their history.
wkwork@reddit
Why is marriage a concern of the government at all?
sadson215@reddit
Marriage is a contract and it's a very common contract. Governments tend to have a monopoly on managing this type of contract.
Divorce can be incredibly complicated.
Polygamy doesn't tend to be successful in delivering stability in a society where individuals are more free. It works better in submissive authoritarian societies because it strongly discourages divorce and strongly incentives getting along rather than competing with each other like in a more liberal (classical) society.
Bloodsquirrel@reddit
I think the biggest reason is just that there isn't a movement to legalize polygamy because it doesn't benefit anyone to do so.
People who want to practice polygamy can already do so in practice; they just can't have those extra marriages legally recognized, and there aren't enough of them to push a national movement. Unlike many other social movements, polygamy isn't useful to progressives, who are usually the ones pushing them.
In the absence of a direct effort that is willing to spend time and money pushing it, the status quo prevails.
KayleeSinn@reddit
Aside from other things, probably also to prohibit cults and indoctrination.
Poly relationships usually create mega families with the head of the household, usually a male as the local "king" who makes their own laws and rules for the family. The kids then get indoctrinated into following those and marrying inside the "cult" into poly relationships too. Even if they maybe don't want to.
I guess it's easier to just snip in the bud than try to regulate the mess it creates. Besides, it's not exactly prohibited. In every liberal country you can have as many partners as you want, at the same time too. The partners are also free to leave any time they want. Marriage in itself though is not a liberal thing. It brings the state into it, making it harder to leave and imposing rules on the participants.
So no, polygamy is a thing and not prohibited however state endorsed polygamy isn't and should never be. In fact the state should get out of monogamous marriages too and leave it between the people who want to get into them.
2010ishWhoop@reddit
Because in polygamist societies a few wealthy men horde all women and then a army of men who can't find mates rips the whole government down.
Polygamy is banned because it almost always leads to civil unrest and ultimately collapse.
Ok_Sea_6214@reddit
It's certainly strange that the woke movement encourages all forms of dating, even disturbingly enough underage, yet will not even discuss polygamy, which actually has a strong religious and cultural support in many societies, even Christian ones.
My theory is that they are trying to demoralize society, and to do that is by attacking men in power, which in the west are predominantly Christian inspired, white and straight. In this context polygamy would actually enhance their position. Once they have achieved that goal they will target men of color, something you can see in the latest Hollywood releases where black men specifically went from being "cool" every time to getting the same treatment as white men. That's because in the US black straight men are second most powerful homogenous group.
These trends has been active in Hollywood for at least decades, you can tell because there is a group of straight white men of a certain non Christian background that has for a long time and even today been beyond even woke reproach.
thakenakdar@reddit
A combination of religious/cultural norms and that marriage is heavily intertwined with the State for taxes, next of kin, etc.
There are also hurdles internationally. If a polygamous couple went to a country like Indonesia, they would have to show a marriage license to be able to share a hotel room. I am not sure how that would work or what would happen if 3 members of the couple tried this.
With that said, I am in full agreement that Polygamy should be legal. Hurdles are the State's problem, not the individual and ideally we have less State involvement in marriage anyway. Wether or not it is culturally encouraged is tbd, but there shouldnt be legal bans on it.
AutoModerator@reddit
New to libertarianism or have questions and want to learn more? Be sure to check out the sub Frequently Asked Questions and the massive /r/libertarian information WIKI from the sidebar, for lots of info and free resources, links, books, videos, and answers to common questions and topics. Want to know if you are a Libertarian? Take the worlds shortest political quiz and find out!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.