Raise defense spending or start learning Russian, NATO Secretary-General tells Europe
Posted by ObjectiveObserver420@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 224 comments
Pklnt@reddit
Schrodinger's Russia, extremely weak because it struggles in Ukraine while at the same time extremely strong because it could take on the whole of Europe by itself.
If the latter was true, they would have already won in Ukraine. I understand that he's joking, but perhaps NATO's Secgen should not make such jokes.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
NATO’s secgen exists to basically constantly nag Europe to increase military spending.
mikeber55@reddit
What increase? They don’t pay even what was pledged. Even with that they are struggling.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Don’t worry, that’s nothing sanctions won’t solve.
We should show Europe what happens when you don’t spend 5% of your GDP on the military by implementing a naval blockade. Any ships coming to or going from Europe should be detained. It’s cargo seized. That cargo sold with the revenue going to fund the blockade.
We can keep up a blockade of Europe indefinitely.
If that is too extreme ( I think it is too lenient) then we should sanction Europe’s aluminum. This would eliminate their car industry.
Chalibard@reddit
Europe will then freeze and liquidate american assets and join Russia in trade. You're going to naval blockade the Oural ?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Bahaha! Good luck!
We keep troops in Europe for a reason.
It has nothing to do with security. It has nothing to do with strategic reasons.
It is for control.
So when things get a little heated, Europe will have to back down because we have troops there already.
We also use our military occupation of Europe to our advantage.
If we didn’t occupy Europe, it would have been impossible to blow up Nordstream.
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
Note that this guy is a Russian pretending to be an American.
The US troops in Europe are not configured for control, neither by location, not by composition.
This guy is just a Russian propagandist trying to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Given how weak Europe is, any amount of American troops is enough to control.
I don’t need to spread anything to anyone. I am exercising my freedom of speech.
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
ROFL. That's not how that works.
And yet, here you are, spreading FUD.
How about fighting for your freedom of speech in Russia, where you live?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
That is exactly how it works.
Lol.
We blew up Germany’s pipeline, they rushed to the explosion site and there were American ships already there.
Thank you very much. We will take your energy market and charge whatever we want. Might as well give us your industry also.
I know y’all don’t have freedom in that communist cesspool. We didn’t overthrow a King to have some douchey European tell us what to think.
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
Only in Russian fantasy books, written for frustrated teenagers, not even in Russian actual military literature.
Yes, I know that you Russians blew up the pipeline. That's why you're spreading so many lies about it. Just like every time you blow up an airplane, you spin up hundreds of wild theories to divert blame.
Yes, I know you Russians charged whatever they wanted. Now that you are out of the market, the prices are lower.
I clearly know more Americans than you do.
You didn't overthrow a king, you overthrew a Czar. And then you gave communist leaders the Czar's power. And when you got rid of the communists, you gave Putin Czar's power. Russians don't know how to handle freedom.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
All sources have ruled out Russia as a culprit.
The now president of America even laughed about it when asked in an interview.
I’m also sure that separatists shot down the MA flight using a Russian BuK back in 2014.
The Soviets shot down an Air Korea flight back in the 1980’s because it went into their airspace.
America shot down an Iranian passenger plane also in the 1980’s. It’s unfortunate but it happens.
It worked. Europe bought gas begrudgingly from Russia in the exact same way they buy oil from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran and Venezuela.
Europe had the lowest energy costs in the entire world thanks to Russian gas. This allowed Europe to compete with their industry because energy is the second biggest input cost.
Since their energy was so much cheaper, they could pay their workers generous salaries & benefits and still sell their cars at a cheaper price.
now European energy prices have tripled.
anytime you remove supply or the number of suppliers, you see an increase in price.
Suppliers in the gulf are able to blackmail the EU to drop its environmental regulations now.
American firms (my father works for one) have seen all-time record high profits. They can charge whatever they want. And they do.
All of this proves America is in control of the European market. We decide who Europe buys gas from. And we decide the price.
Naturally, the interests of our firms and workers will come first.
We know you have nowhere to go. You have nowhere else to buy gas.
Generally speaking, importing LNG is more expensive than a simple pipeline.
next up, we will need to bomb Turkstream pipeline.
then we will need justification to sanction UAE and Algerian ships. Make American gas the only gas Europe can use.
I guess technically we didn’t overthrow King George III, we simply won independence from him.
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
Trump laughed, but Trump at the time did not have access to classified information, so what he said was opinion only.
And you made a telling mistake: no American would call Trump "now president" on the 18th.
Several lies. No, Russia did not charge extremely low prices. What is more, they raised prices severely any time they wanted to pressure European countries. And no, when the pipelines first started, there was no dislike of Russia. In fact European countries regarded Russia favorably as both a WW2 ally and no-longer-a-cold-war-threat country. So, other than in the Baltic countries (where the major pipelines didn't go, anyway) there wasn't a resistance to Russian gas.
A lie. No the prices of energy have not tripled. If you take the lowest price in the last 10 years, AND ignore inflation adjustment, you could come close to 50% increase. Add inflation and it's not even close to that. Tripled is obviously an exaggeration produced for Russian internal consumption.
Wrong. First, you (Russia) don't control the European market. Neither does the US, and neither Russia, nor the US are the only producers competing to sell LNG to European market.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
He most likely did have access. Presidents have lifetime Top Secret clearance.
Even if it was his opinion, it makes zero sense.
Russia blew up its own pipeline. Instead of shutting off the flow?
I thought Russia needed to sell oil and gas. I thought Russia depended on selling gas to Europe, so then why would they sabotage their ability to ever sell gas to Europe.
Besides every intelligence agency has definitely ruled out Russia.
It makes absolutely zero sense why Europe would pay high Russian prices. That isn’t how a marker works.
the first pipeline started during the Cold War. I think there was some mistrust against Russia then.
so you are trying to argue that there was no energy crisis? I don’t follow.
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
Two reasons: they wanted to restrict the flow to pressure European countries, but they didn't want to pay the penalties that were specified for non-performance in the contract. Which is why, before they blew up the pipeline, they pretended a compressor has failed. When the compressor was allowed to Canada for repair, and returned repaired, that's when they blew up the pipeline. The internal Russian reason is that Putin was getting tired of the pressure from the gas oligarchs who wanted to sell the gas when he wanted it restricted. Just look at the number of Gazprom executives who "committed suicide" at that time. Blowing up the pipeline ended that pressure.
Not so. You're lying again.
Russia relied on their not being good LNG ports in Europe, and being forced to pay for gas through the pipelines. Europe's very quick building of LNG terminals in several countries came as a surprise to them.
I'm saying that your claim that the prices have tripled is a lie. Oh, yes, Russia induced a very high jump in the prices before the start of the war and at the start of the war. But once the LNG terminals came on-line, the prices started dropping, and now they are pretty stable. Somewhat higher than they were before, but nowhere near tripled.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
If they wanted to restrict the flow, then they could turn off the flow.
If you want to control the flow of anything, you don’t destroy the mechanism that gives you the power to blackmail.
they could just not pay the penalties. Basically the same exact thing they did with some of their debt.
Russia never sent the compressor to be repaired in Canada. Instead, Canada withheld a crucial component from Russia.
The longer they held onto the part, the worse they looked to Europe.
They sent the part back finally after they received word that the pipeline was going to be bombed anyways in a CIA operation.
The only gas oligarch is Putin and maybe some of his friends. They know if they put pressure on Putin, they will find themselves falling out a window.
all intelligence agencies have already ruled out Russia. They ruled out Russia back in 2022.
Europe has plenty of ports that can handle LNG.
Ukraine now gets its gas, at about four times the price, solely from American LNG unloaded at Greek Ports that are connected by pipeline to Ukraine.
No one was waiting on “port infrastructure”.
Our prices were too high to compete with Russia.
Therefore, we took military action to solve that problem.
It’s not a coincidence that American gas and LNG companies have recorded all-time record high profits every year since we blew up Nordstream.
You build pipelines to eliminate transport costs.
The various Russian pipelines to Europe practically eliminated transport costs for Russian gas.
That is how Russia gained a monopoly over Europe. No one else could sell gas for those prices.
Because we don’t have any obligation to sell gas to you at affordable prices.
Our concerns are to our profits and our workers.
But thanks for fighting our corner so hard!
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
If they SIMPLY turned off the flow, they would have to pay penalties for non-fulfillment of delivery contracts. Very, VERY substantial penalties. .That's why, when they turned off the flow, they pretended it was because of a damaged compressor.
When the "damaged" compressor was repaired, and returned (despite the sanctions), they blew up the pipeline instead.
Another shameless lie. Here's the proof:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/canada-sent-repaired-turbine-nord-stream-germany-kommersant-2022-07-18/
https://www.upstreamonline.com/production/canada-to-allow-return-of-nord-stream-compressor-to-russia/2-1-1255617?zephr_sso_ott=6QCr73
[Citation needed] You simply made that up.
Which is what I said.
Yes, it does now.
Your media in Russia is lying to you. For instance, just in Germany they opened 3 re-gassification terminals in 2022 (after Russians blew up the pipeline). One in Willemshaven, two in Lubmin. Another two were built in Finland. Another one n the Netherlands One in Spain. That's just the ones I was able to verify were build in 2022 and 2023. I probably missed some.
That's only true if it is a competitive market where both are available. In a market where Europe could not import sufficient quantities from the US, Russia could, and DID raise prices wherever they wanted to pressure Europe.
Yes, as I said, Russia took military action to solve the both the external, commercial problem, and the internal power struggle.
What a bunch of shameless lies. No, the prices are not climbing to 2022 levels. 2022 prices peaked at more than 5 times the current prices. Fluctuation in prices were not previously "non-existant". Anybody who ever glanced at a graph of gas prices can see that.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
And there are a million other things they could claim were broken.
Not to mention, Russia doesn’t have to pay anything as we have found. You can send them the bills but they will probably get it overturned in court.
Russia would always take some penalties over losing access to the European market.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/canada-seeking-pathway-enable-german-gas-flow-amid-russian-sanctions-bloomberg-2022-06-21/
if they are in danger of falling out a window, they can’t put pressure on Putin.
LNG has been available for a while. In fact, in order to get helium, you have to liquify natural gas.
America has seen steadily growing liquified natural gas exports to Europe since 2015, when we put the first sanctions on Russia.
I guess you are partially correct that they needed more infrastructure to take on enough LNG to replace Russian gas.
really? The Russians raised prices?
https://jabberwocking.com/raw-data-the-price-of-natural-gas-in-the-us-and-europe/
Seems that US price is like $10 and Europe price is $70. Gee, I wonder why?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Natural_gas_prices_Europe_and_US.webp
Again, I am not seeing any huge increase in the European price of natural gas.
So that never happened.
Russia never raised the price.
Instead, we took covert military action to blow up the pipeline.
That restricted the supply of gas to Europe and the number of suppliers.
That increased the price.
nonviolent_blackbelt@reddit
Only in a Russian court. But the jurisdiction over commercials disputes over Nordstream pipelines lies with the European court, not the Russian one. And the fault for stopping the flow of gas was pretty clear.
Wow, what a blatant lie. Not only the sources I cited in the message I'm replying to, but the source YOU cited say they are waiting for the compressor (aka turbine).
If they had been truly unable to put pressure on Putin, there would have been no need to throw them out of windows.
Non sequitur.
Yes, the graph is shorter than the period we're talking about, and the differences in the prices prior to 2022 are washed out by the huge peak caused by Russia first restricting supply, and then blowing up Nordstream.
One lie, one truth. Russia did raise the prices, and yes, it took covert military action to blow up the pipeline. And Russian media at the time was full of gloating predictions of how Europe was going to freeze that winter. Didn't happen, because Europe built more terminals quicker than Russians had anticipated.
Chalibard@reddit
France and UK both have the nuclear weapons, there is a possibility they will not back down.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
British nukes are under American control.
They don’t like to admit it but if you buy an American system, duh, of course we control their use.
Either way, their stockpiles are a few hundred, which is adorable.
Europe could only produce an anemic “no thanks” in response.
Europe is an American vassal. They only have relevancy through America.
The colonizers have become the colonized.
warstyle@reddit
Spoken like a true amerifay
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Freedom isn’t free. There’s a hefty fuckin’ fee.
Europe needs to understand this.
43GuineaPigs@reddit
From where is the US supposed to ~~bomb~~ bring freedom to the Middle East though, if they break up with Europe?
EtherealPheonix@reddit
Ok there are a lot of actual issues with that guys suggestion. However we have plenty of allies in the middle east who let us use their land for airbases. Also a carrier group.
loggy_sci@reddit
He isn’t American, just pretends to be on Reddit
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Lolwut
Splooshbutforguys@reddit
🤡
_-_777_-_@reddit
Only like 5 countries don't reach the 2% recommendation...
mikeber55@reddit
Only?
Regardless, even the 2% is low. I read Macron declared that Europe cannot rely on US and needs another agreement. To achieve that, contributions of 5% by each nation were suggested! Think about that!
Clbull@reddit
The question is whether the UK & France have enough working nukes to act as a deterrent.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
No, Russia is struggling in Ukraine because it’s gotten loads and loads of NATO weapons, more than any one European NATO country (besides, maybe, Poland and Turkey). If the US is out of the mix in a Russian invasion of Europe (which doesn’t seem like a 0% probability at this point) then Europe itself will not be able to beat the Russian military. It just doesn’t have the numbers or industry to do so, which it would absolutely need since European NATO wouldn’t be able to utilize its air force very effectively because it lacks counters to Russian AA (the US does have effective counters, though). So Europe should increase defense spending so that, if a war does come, either 1. The US doesn’t have to do everything, or 2. They’ll be able to survive without the US bailing them out.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
The idea that Russia could attack and defeat the EU is just a fantasy. They don’t have the numbers or capabilities for anything of the sort. Nor do they need to, it doesn’t help them.
EU is almost half a billion people.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Russia has the numbers and industrial ability to overwhelm Europe. Not sweep across Europe, but definitely take over the Baltics, Moldova, and at least part of Poland and hold it from European attacks. European NATO, currently, doesn’t have the ability to beat back Russia. Their militaries and underfunded and under equipped and their populations are not motivated at all. Industries aren’t prepared either. In the event of a Russian invasion I’d imagine Europe would eventually get ready, but that would be too little too late at that. I very much doubt Europe would be able to dislodge Russian defenses in the areas it conquered from Eastern European countries.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Russians don’t even have the manpower to occupy all of Ukraine, they will pinch off the eastern region to create a defensible border and force the rest into non-alignment. The idea that they can take and hold Poland and the Baltics is a serious stretch, and most importantly, they simply have no reason to do it.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Manpower is not their problem. As we can see, Russia is more than willing to spend hundreds of thousands of men to get what they want. They aren’t succeeding more in Ukraine because Ukraine is more motivated and has more weapons than most of Europe. It’s unfortunately losing at the moment, though, and that can be directly attributed to industrial and political weaknesses of Europe and the US. Europe seems very slow to rectify any of those weaknesses, and I’d doubt they’d be solved by the time Russia invaded.
It’s not at all a stretch to think Russia would be able to overwhelm the Baltics quickly and at least take some land from Poland. Again, Russia has the numbers and willingness to make huge sacrifices whereas Europe, particularly the Baltics but also most other European countries, do not.
And of course Russia has a reason to invade the Baltics and Poland and Moldova, etc. The same reason that they’re invading Ukraine. Putin wants to reclaim all the lands of the Russian empire.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Manpower is always a problem - and you’re expecting them to stretch theirs over a vast area. They have a ~600k ground force in Ukraine, but what you’re asking for requires many times more men - equipped, trained, fed, armed, etc. And Russians need a large labor force to produce the equipment and supplies for this huge army,
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The border between Poland, the Baltics and Russia and Belarus is about 1,400 km, 500 km less than Russia’s border with Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine with about 190,000 men at first. In that time they took about ~16% of Ukraine’s land (or something like that, I can’t remember the exact percentage). They increased their numbers after they got bogged down. The number in Ukraine now is roughly 700,000 men, but that’s because they’re still slowly trying to advance. Right now, Russia occupied roughly 120,000 km^2 of Ukraine. The Baltics in total are about 170,000 km^2. That’s only 50,000 more.
My point in saying all that is that Russia wouldn’t need too much more to fight Europe, at least in the way it’s fighting Ukraine. Say, a million to 1.2 million. Now, I’m aware that’s 300-500,000 more men (in this scenario I’m assuming Russia is no longer fighting in Ukraine, because I can’t imagine Russia would start a war in the rest of Europe while still at war with Ukraine), but Russia has demonstrated that it can mobilize large amounts of men when it needs, especially now that it’s clamping down more on dissent and encouraging patriotism. And it seems likely it has the ability to equip these more men too. Russia is good at making a lot of garbage equipment, and numbers are more important than quality in a war of attrition. The men don’t have to be all that well trained, though in this scenario more than half the army will have combat experience one way or another, more than any European army can say, they just need to be willing to die to achieve an objective.
And I think it should be pointed out that Russia outdoes Europe in the areas of training, equipping, making, arming, etc. Europe cannot outproduce Russia in terms of military equipment currently. Now, that’s because Russia is in full war mode while Europe isn’t, but the beginning of the conflict would be key and Russia seems to have all the advantages to take what it wants initially and defend it against any counter attacks.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
What would happen is that the Russian invasion would get severely slowed once they hit Poland and the rest of Europe would convert into wartime economies. The GDP of the EU is 10x that of Russia and the population is 4x. The Russian slow burn through Poland will give Europe the time to mobilize and convert their significant manufacturing capabilities to war production and train a significant fighting force.
The EU has their own military contractors and production. Airbus, Leonardo, Thales, Saab, Dassault, the list goes on. Europe doesn't have the political will for military spending, but if Russia was to invade, that would immediately change and Europe could outproduce Russia, at the cost of their relative comfortable way of life.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Perhaps you’re right, but by the time that Europe finally gets itself fully mobilized, Russia will have already taken parts of Poland, Moldova, and the Baltics. Maybe bits of Finland too. Europe doesn’t seem to have the stomach to lose loads of men in offensives against Russian defenses, so perhaps they’d be able to take some land back, but the end would probably be the same as in Ukraine, where Russia succeeds in its land grab.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
What makes you say that? Ukraine?
Ukraine was an outsider who is not part of the EU, NATO, or had any real direct connection to the EU. It was a buffer state that just recently started to come into the Western sphere of influence. Yes, Europe was unhappy about the invasion, but not enough to really divert spending to the military. It is not a threat to the EU. An attack on a NATO member on the other hand would be a clear escalation by Russia, which would result in Europe not knowing the end goal and deciding that it is better to engage and stop the Russian army in the east.
People seem to forget that Germany, France, UK, Italy were the old powers before WW2. It is political will that has stopped them from trying to reclaim their previous military might, and that desire will be flamed if Russia is seen as a direct threat.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Maps like this are what make me think that europe wouldn’t be able to stomach mass casualties. https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/fw9Y98YPhu
Do you really think the French are willing to sacrifice thousands of soldiers for Poland? Or Germany? Spain? Perhaps the UK, maybe, but most of the “big” military powers in Europe are the ones who seem the least willing to stick their necks out for others when it truly counts.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
'Defend' for the majority of the Western world has for a long time been taking part in a foreign military engagement far away from their own country who is facing no real threat. That is what 'defense' has meant to a lot of people for a long time now. An attack on the EU by an invading force completely changes that, there is a real existential threat.
It's really hard to tell someone that they need to be patriotic and die for their country when the wars being fought are to take control of regions and resources in far off lands.
The map you showed actually highlights this exact thing. Countries further away from a perceived threat are more reluctant to take up arms for a hypothetical. If that threat becomes real, then those number will also change.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I don’t know. I acknowledge that Reddit doesn’t always or usually reflect actual reality, but I’ve spoken to several Europeans on here who say that the system now in Europe is so bad they wouldn’t defend it, even if there was a direct attack on their homeland. Why defend something you hate? Even if the systems in Russia and china are worse, in their minds, the situation in their home countries now is not worth defending. Perhaps that mentality would change or indeed that’s just a fringe opinion, but the wave of patriotism you assume would just happen is not a sure thing. Besides, it’s not like Russia would directly invade all countries of Europe simultaneously. Would Germans or Frenchmen or Spaniards be willing to die for a bit of polish land? Hard to say, but I wouldn’t say the chances are 100% yes. If peace can be achieved by giving away someone else’s land, I don’t doubt many in Europe would jump at that opportunity.
Pklnt@reddit
But less than the entirety of the military capabilities of NATO countries in Europe.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Well, not that much less. In terms of tanks, European NATO (not including Turkey, because I highly doubt Turkey would help against Russia if Russia attacked) has about 1300. That’s quite a few, but as we’ve seen, European tanks are about as vulnerable to, say, drones, as any other tanks. Europe also doesn’t seem able to repair the tanks that get damaged in Ukraine currently, and those losses are a lot smaller compared to what they’d face in an actual war. In terms of equipment, it seems unlikely that, currently, most European countries would be able to actually equip all their soldiers and reservists that they have on paper. Germany has an ammo crisis and the whole of Europe is struggling to manufacture one million artillery shells a year, which seems to be the bare minimum of what is needed to fight in Ukraine, and winks most certainly be inadequate in a larger war. Russia can overwhelm europe with garbage if the US isn’t there to help.
Pklnt@reddit
Let's not include countries to fit in your narrative.
Limemill@reddit
You do understand that Turkey will absolutely NOT go to war with Russia unless it sees some personal benefit (reannexing the Crimea, perhaps?)? And everyone else, even taken together, are pretty weak. Not enough people, but most importantly not nearly enough weapons. Weapons production in the EU is really not up to par with what it takes to fight off someone like Russia additionally supplied by Iran and North Korea (and in slightly more obscure ways, China). So, yeah, the EU needs to drastically ramp up arms manufacturing if it wants to withstand the likes of Russia. The problem is, it’s the Baltics, Moldova and the likes that Russia will be eyeing next, none of which Western Europe is keen on defending at the cost of many lives of its citizens
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Why would Turkey go to war with Russia? They’ve been skirting the line between NATO and Russia for at least a decade. I highly doubt that erdogan, who seems to dislike europe as much as europe dislikes him, will sacrifice any Turkish soldiers to defend Europe against a Russian invasion. There’s no incentive, there’s no gain.
Quirky_Inflation@reddit
There's a difference between being able to beat Russia with your own military, and being able to help another country with a very limited set of equipment eligible and completely different military complexes.
Paltamachine@reddit
Because that way, it's cheaper for the US.
Stromovik@reddit
If the enemy is omnipresent and strong, while at the same time very weak and just needs a little push to break, you are listening to propoganda.
Same shit in nazi propaganda the judeo-bolsheviks are everywhere and sabotaging the Aryans, but as soon as we invade the USSR it's going to collapse.
Born_Suspect7153@reddit
Propaganda... maybe, considering who's speaking, he's clearly biased. That's part of his job: prepare for the worst.
However this isn't even far-fetched. Russia is disrupting Infrastructure, Elections, spreading propaganda, influencing European parties.
A straight fight like in Ukraine would be won. However that's not what Russia wants, especially after the debacle there. Their strategy is to put pressure on all fronts, get puppets like in Hungary in place and increase the pressure until something breaks.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
You mean Ukraine, don't you? How's the investigation on the Nord Stream sabotage is going? Did Germany manage to interrogate the Ukrainian officer perpetrator?
Russia kinda does that. With a little result me think.
In the meantime the US officials literally meddle into ANY country of their even remote interest - Ukraine, Taiwan, Georgia, now Greenland.
pamsen@reddit
Have you seriously heard nothing about all the undersea cables destroyed last year, primarily in the Baltic. Power cables, Internet cables get destroyed almost monthly. "Random" fires and explosions in munitions factories all across Eastern European NATO members. Russia is already fighting Europe in hybrid warfare
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
I heard about it. It's always Russia but after a short time when the news gets old turns out it's China or something.
I don't deny that Russia may be involved in sabotage of sorts.
Anyways, you didn't answer my question: how does the investigation on Nord Stream going?
pamsen@reddit
You singled out the one case where Ukraine did it. In the hope that would make the tens of other acts Russia did seem less problematic. Doesn't work. Russia is still commuting way more acts of sabotage than the single Ukrainian case.
I have no clue as to how the investigation is going, and frankly, I don't really care? That pipeline should have never even been built after 2014.
The point still is. Russia is actively waging hybrid warfare against Europe and NATO. We should prepare better
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
>You singled out the one case where Ukraine did it.
Now we're cooking. It's good that you admit Ukraine (or rather Zelensky) did an act of infrastructural terrorism.
>Russia is still commuting way more acts of sabotage than the single Ukrainian case.
Examples?
>I have no clue as to how the investigation is going, and frankly, I don't really care? That pipeline should have never even been built after 2014.
You think so? So it's Zelensky who decides what should exist in Germany and what not, huh? How about next time Ukrainian commandos assassinating the head of the AfD? What would you say? "This party should have never existed"?
loggy_sci@reddit
The investigation is ongoing in Germany and Ukraine hasn’t been found guilty. I know that is difficult for you to hear.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Germany issued a warrant for the arrest of a certain Ukrainian individual. How's it going?
loggy_sci@reddit
Not how you think it is, since there the investigation is still ongoing.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Investigation is not going anywhere because Germany knows Ukraine did this, but Germany is a cuckold state so they will just suck it up.
loggy_sci@reddit
You literally were just gloating that they put out an arrest warrant for a Ukrainian and in the next post said the investigation isn’t going anywhere.
I think this bot is broken.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
It isn't going anywhere because Germany knows that Ukraine did this but Germany will do nothing about it.
I am tired of you. Go away.
loggy_sci@reddit
Issuing an arrest warrant is the opposing of “doing nothing about it”
NoPriorThreat@reddit
He is russian troll
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
You are russian troll.
Born_Suspect7153@reddit
No, I mean Russia.
What Ukraine may or may not have done is really irrelevant to a discussion regarding Russias meddling in Europe.
The US aren't angels either, for sure. Which makes Russias aggressive stance even more tragic. The EU+Russia could've been a powerful bloc against both USA and China and rising powers like India.
I wish Russia could have learned from the past just like the rest of the Europe and put those conflicts behind us.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
It's not irrelevant. Ukraine committed an act of sabotage against its closest ally (?).
USA has been (probably still does) listening to Merkel's cellphone.
Now, kid, tell me more about this Russian meddling into European affairs.
loggy_sci@reddit
You could have a conversation like a normal person, without the condescending’kid’.
Ukraine hasn’t been found guilty of the Nordstream attack.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Germany literally issued an order for a certain Ukrainian individual.
Born_Suspect7153@reddit
Of course it's irrelevant to a discussion of regarding Russias meddling in Europe.
It's relevance is decided by us, not yourself.
Nethlem@reddit
Let's not forget Romania, which these days is the perfect example of the kind of "democracy" the US&EU are allowing others to have: "Vote for our candidate or we gonna keep voting again until you do!"
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Exactly. Let's leave Russia aside. How about Chinese ambassadors showing up during the Capitol unrest in the US? Or in Bucharest supporting one of the political parties?
Sir-Knollte@reddit
A strategy where military is of little use, still we discuss artillery and bombers.
Otto_von_Boismarck@reddit
Its clearly an exaggeration. I'd say it's more about china than Russia
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
Hilarious to frame it this way when the US has been carrying NATO spend and Europe would genuinely be in trouble if relying solely on European contributions to NATO.
axeteam@reddit
Just more fearmongering.
00x0xx@reddit
Russia isn’t a threat to NATO. The whole Ukraine conflict started because Russia failed to obtain a treaty to keep NATO out of Ukraine. It’s Russia that fears NATO.
re_carn@reddit
Did they annex Crimea also because of “fear of Nato”? I agree that Russia is not a threat to Nato, but the war with Ukraine started because the old fart suddenly got imperial ambitions.
00x0xx@reddit
No. It was always about NATO. The build up to this war started in 2008. Here's some references.
Bucharest declaration: NATO's Ukraine debate still haunted by 2008 summit
Putin warns Nato over expansion
re_carn@reddit
Yeah, yeah, sure. And also about denazification, protection of Russians, search for chemical and biological weapons and a bunch of other reasons that Russia desperately made up in the first months of the invasion. But it matters what the old farts say - they're still lying.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
The nazi stuff is pretty, well, real.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Not any more real than the Nazis in Russia. I don't see a three day special military operation happening in Moscow.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Much more. There are active SS Galicia Museums, endorsed by ukrainian state tv in Ivano-Frankovsk.
There is active military unit with nazi symbols inside official ukrainian forces.
Even western newspapers before the war were pointing that out.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Oh, you mean unlike the active Nazis marching in Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism_in_Russia#/media/File:National-socialists_marching_near_Vosstaniya_Square_in_St._Petersburg_on_1_May_2014.JPG
Or the Nazis fighting for Russia in the Wagner group and regular forces? Or the long list of nazi groups popping up in Russia over and over again? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism_in_Russia
Even western newspapers before the war were pointing that out.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Wagner are not Nazi organisation. Most people there were not Nazi. That’s just plain facts again.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Wagner isn’t an organization with any political ideology. I’m sure some of their members are Neo-Nazis but that is relatively normal for convicts.
By contrast, you have over a dozen different fascist ultranationalist military units in Ukraine. Azov. Right Sector. C14 Sich. National Militia.
The list goes on and on and on.
All of those units have fascist ideologies. You can only join those units if you agree with that ideology.
Ukraine has morphed into a disgusting racialist state.
A fringe group of activists who worshipped Stepan Bandera because of his racial views are now mainstream. They are the government.
The old Ukrainian identity of diversity and having Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians, Tatars, Poles living together in one nation is dead and buried.
The very fact that people have museums and statues to someone who didn’t really advance Ukrainian independence, who collaborated with the Nazis, and who is responsible for butchering hundreds of thousands of people is insane.
It tells you everything you need to know.
vuddehh@reddit
Great, now do Russia
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Oh no! Most people were not Nazi? Well guess what?
Most people in Ukraine are not Nazi as well.
That's just plain facts again.
Ashenveiled@reddit
>Most people in Ukraine are not Nazi as well.
never said most people in Ukraine are nazi.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
No, but your daddy Putin did.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Nazi has a different meaning in Europe than it does in Russia because of history.
Europeans believe Nazis only hate jews, even though they hated a lot of people.
Unfortunately, the mainstream view in Ukraine is racialist. It is “Ukraine for Ukrainians”. It opposes autonomy or diversity and associates that with Russia.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Only a fool will argue there are no Nazis in Russia. There are. However, they are marginals.
In Ukraine, on the other hand, people covered with Nazi tattoes are literally in charge of military brigades. Nazi troops openly celebrate their special dates and such.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Ah, yes. Only marginal Nazis in Russia https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535
Nothing to see here. If they don't have swastikas tattooed on their faces, they're not real Nazis, you see?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Did you read what I wrote? I didn't deny the existence of the Nazi in Russia. Do they enjoy the same level of endorsement as in Ukraine? Not at all.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Yes, they do enjoy an even higher level of endorsement. A fascist nationalist is heading the Russian state, in case you didn't notice.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
He's not fascist. He's an autocrat, no debate here but he's not fascist. It's 101 polsci class. You should study, kid.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Boy, don't call me kid. You're just parroting what you've been told.
If you can't make out a fascist when you see one and still believe that you need to differentiate the flavor of fascism because not all the boxes are checked just yet, you maybe need to continue past polsci 101.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
“Fascist” has become a label to denote something people don’t like. Or a bully as George Orwell pointed out.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Fascist always meant the same. It's just that people thought for a long time that fascists were fine as long as they weren't specifically Nazis.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
The thing is, I am a well-educated guy, including political science.
You must be the other guy.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Yeah, right. Whatever you want to call it when you can barely make an argument on your own.
We all can see how well educated you are. Really impressive.
If that's your education, I really WANT to be the other guy.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
The problem is that a lot of Russian neo-Nazis like Denis Kapustin fight for Ukraine.
Same is true with Belorussian Neo-Nazis.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Lol. But if you are Russian or Hungarian or Romanian no protections for you!
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
The irony is that most of the Neo-Nazis from Russia fight for Ukraine.
The Russian Volunteer Corps - the unit they used to attack Belogorod and Kursk to “liberate Russia” - is led by Denis Kapustin.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Kapustin_(militant)
This ideology mirrors the official ideology of Ukraine, which is Ukraine for ethnic Ukrainians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Volunteer_Corps
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Wikipedia links, huh? How about this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1i1ul3c/ua_pov_an_instructor_from_ukraines_national_guard/
Ukraine’s National Guard Svoboda Battalion who goes by the call sign “Goebbels.” LITERALLY.
Gosh, you're such a loser!
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Reddit links, huh? How about this?
https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535
State sponsored fascists, LITERALLY.
GoSh, YoU'rE sUcH a LoSeR!
Cry harder, troll.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Did you watch the video, loser?
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Yes I did watch the video, loser. It doesn't change anything about RuZZias Nazis though. lol
You really think you did something there, do you? Do you need me to link you videos of Russian Nazis saying fucked up shit or what?
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Ukraine is the only country on the planet that helped fund, arm and train a bunch of fascist ultranationalist paramilitary groups and then absorbed them into their armed forces.
Or the fact that paramilitaries are allowed by law to police Kyiv with their weapons and determine who and who is not a “Patriot”.
Ultranationalists are deeply embedded in the MOD, Ministry of Veteran Affairs, GUR, SBU, OFTP, etc.
The whitewashing of all this is incredible.
For example, I once saw an Azov sign at a gay pride parade in America.
And these ultranationalists are lauded as heroes, they determine patriotic education and go around with their torch marches all the time.
LearnedZephyr@reddit
I'm sure you did.
loggy_sci@reddit
That is a problem for Ukraine to deal with and none of Russias business.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
It is our business since it is my tax dollars going to those people.
This may be controversial but I don’t support Neo-Nazis.
loggy_sci@reddit
Stop pretending you’re American
00x0xx@reddit
The second link explains the whole war, and even Putin's first threat to invade Ukraine, 16 years ago. Did you not read it?
UpperInjury590@reddit
Wrong, in 2014, when Russia invaded Ukraine, it couldn't join NATO or even want to join NATO (unpopular with population) and wasn'tplanning in joining NATO, yet Russia invaded anyway.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Partially true. Ukrainians en masse did not want to join NATO. Some Ukrainian elites wanted to. The US wanted Ukraine to seemingly join NATO in order to antagonize Russia.
Google Bucharest NATO Summit 2008, buddy. Don't embarrass yourself here.
UpperInjury590@reddit
There was an act that declared that Ukraine couldn't join NATO or any other military alliance. When Putin invaded Ukraine, it was in 2014 when the act was present, and when Ukraine was not trying to join NATO. Furthermore, all countries have to agree to let even if the US wanted to let Ukraine join, and many countries, including France and Germany, rejected the idea of Ukraine joining.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Son, read the 2008 NATO Bucharest Summit declaration. Don't embarrass yourself.
UpperInjury590@reddit
I know what you're talking about. It changes nothing. Ukraine couldn't join because their was an act declared that they could not join NATO or any other military alliance, which was still present and active in 2014, and they were not trying to join when Putin invaded. Why would he invade because of NATO if Ukraine couldn't join NATO? Wasn't in NATO and wasn't trying to join NATO in that time period?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Son, I repeat again: read the godammit declaration. The West took Ukraine on board in 2008 already. Not the people, but the part of the elites. The Western backed coup of 2013-14 was a writing on the wall for Russia.
Stop speculating.
UpperInjury590@reddit
You keep mentioning the declaration when you are not taking into account that their was an act made after the declaration that prevented Ukraine from joining NATO or any other military, and in 2014, they were not trying to join NATO because of the act.
Calling what happened in Ukraine in a coup is inaccurate. The goal was to push for an EU deal after the current president rejected it after orders from Putin, which was made worse after his aggressive reaction to protestors. A deal was going to be made, but the president left the country since he abandoned his position, and they replaced him. They didn't want to get rid of or replace him. Furthermore, the West simply backed the protestors for an EU deal. They didn't want a regime change.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Read the declaration. Bring in here the paragraph that mentions Ukraine specifically. A quote. Do it.
UpperInjury590@reddit
You do it
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Do it, son. I'll show it to you.
re_carn@reddit
It doesn't matter what the old fart says or how he justifies his actions. The annexation of Crimea is in no way explained by the expansion of Nato, and the current actions will rather encourage many countries to join. So even if you truly believe that he was motivated by these considerations, he still lost.
00x0xx@reddit
You can believe what you want. My primary goal in responding to you is to post those links above so other readers can read them and make the judgement for themselves the background to this conflict.
re_carn@reddit
You can defend Putin all you want, but his actions speak for themselves.
Ugkvrtikov@reddit
Are you like 10?
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
The second link explains fuck all. It just shows how deranged, deluded and despicable the human shit stain called Putin is.
You're defending an absolute psychopath who will gladly kill you and your whole family for looking at him funny.
But I'm sure he said some years ago that he doesn't like being looked at funnily so that makes it okay and your fault.
re_carn@reddit
Let me explain again: I don't give a damn what that old fart said - he said a lot of things that didn't happen in the end. The reason for the war was solely because this asshole decided to write his name in history as “restorer of the USSR” before his death. Nobody needed this war but him.
AntonioVivaldi7@reddit
And this story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucified_boy
LeviathanGoesToSleep@reddit
Don't forget the satanists
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
It was never about NATO. NATO was always a pretense to have any reason to point to when this brain rotten lunatic would've decided to start a fucking war anyways. Or was Chechnya about NATO as well? Or Georgia? Or Moldova?
All because big bad wolf NATO came?
Don't answer. I don't need any more of your insults to anyone's intelligence.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Second chechen war started when Chechen forces attacked Nalchik. thats well known fact.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Oh, the Second Chechen War? You mean the one where Russia killed 300 of its own people in apartment bombings to justify bringing the war to the Chechens although the initial conflict was in Dagestan?
I thought we were talking about the First Chechen war where Russia straight up killed the democratically elected leader of the Chechens because he wasn't pro Russia.
But that might not be too well known facts where you get your education from.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
> Oh, the Second Chechen War? You mean the one where Russia killed 300 of its own people in apartment bombings to justify bringing the war to the Chechens although the initial conflict was in Dagestan?
Well, if you seriously think believe in this then you probably believe that 9/11 was a CIA special op, don't you?
> I thought we were talking about the First Chechen war where Russia straight up killed the democratically elected leader of the Chechens because he wasn't pro Russia.
You mean Dudaev?
By the way, why doesn't Spain allow Catalonia to become independent?
vuddehh@reddit
Bot says what?
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
No I don't believe that 9/11 was a CIA special op even if I seriously think believe in this then. lol
Yes I mean Dudaev. Want to tell me something about the massacre of Grozny?
Learn to write. Can't be that hard to find a proper Russian-English translator, is it?
By the way what does this have to do with shit? Whataboutism isn't gonna cut it buddy.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
First of all, learn to write. I assume English is not your first language.
Why do you think Russia blew its own residential area then?
Dudaev was fighting against the federal government.
It's not whataboutism, son. It's called comparison. Gives you perspective, you know.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Do you want to point out my mistakes, then? Yes? Go ahead.
As is widely known, it was a badly orchestrated false flag attack in which not only a government official announced an attack days before it happened but also FSB agents were caught red-handed setting up a bomb.
Do you want to continue this?
Yes, exactly. So?
I don't need perspective from someone like you. If you want perspective you can just as well look at Spain and Catalonia and see how civilized countries handle autonomy aspirations. You might learn a thing or two.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
> Do you want to point out my mistakes, then? Yes? Go ahead.
Yes.
> As is widely known...
Stopped reading from here. As is widely known your dick is small. Go ahead, argue the opposite.
Bring them proof, bring them data. I am a serious expert to debate with clowns like you. Do it.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
You're pathetic.
Why would I? My dick is tiny. What about yours?
Does it make what you say any less idiotic and false?
You mean, you're an expert in debating clowns like me.
I'm just trying to fix your bad English here, buddy.
Also, I have no doubt, you're an expert tO dEbAtE wItH cLoWnS.
It's your job after all. I very much hope for your sake that you do it better next time though. I don't think your managers will take kindly to this level of incompetence you're displaying.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Let me put it this way: I am well-endowed.
You don't have to admit that your dick is small. It's quite evident. I see it, everyone else can see it, even your managers.
LearnedZephyr@reddit
Who cares, big dicks are a dime a dozen and they get pretty boring fast. Bad news for you, you may actually have to try to be interesting.
loggy_sci@reddit
Ruby is so cringe and loves to talk about other peoples dicks when he gets into arguments. Ur is super weird. May be a bot actually.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
> Do you want to point out my mistakes, then? Yes? Go ahead.
Yes.
> As is widely known...
Stopped reading from here. As is widely known your dick is small. Go ahead, argue the opposite.
Bring them proof, bring them data. I am a serious expert to debate with clowns like you. Do it.
Ashenveiled@reddit
>Oh, the Second Chechen War? You mean the one where Russia killed 300 of its own people in apartment bombings
thats a myth.
> to justify bringing the war to the Chechens although the initial conflict was in Dagestan?
Chechens attacked Dagestan. How else do you think any nation will respond if their neigbour attacks their city?
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Sure, buddy. Just like wet water and cold snow. Mysterious myths.
Dagestan is not a city. I think any nation that's not led by psychopaths will respond to an attack by defending the attacked. Not by creating a false flag to justify the attack on people who had fuck all to do with the initial attack.
You really think you can keep spouting that Russian state propaganda unchecked here? You must be new to the job.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Nalchik is a city. Which was sieged by Basaev.
You are mentally ill I guess
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Sure, you can guess all you want.
Seeing as you are guessing facts and making up justifications for war crimes and human right violations, terror attacks against the own population and mass murder, I guess you can just as well guess that I'm mentally ill when I call you out on your shilling.
Guess away, buddy!
Dimas166@reddit
They annex Crimea to maintain their base in the black sea, that's it
TheS4ndm4n@reddit
Nobody was treathening their base there.
But a lot of oil fields were discovered in the black sea. And Crimea being Ukrainian meant they are all in Ukrainian waters.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
When the Western backed Maidan is happening where protesters literally sing "москоляку на гiляку" (Hang a muscovite) one cannot be sure that the fate of the base wasn't under threat.
Also, most of the Crimeans want to be with Russia, not Ukraine.
vuddehh@reddit
According to Russia.
Dimas166@reddit
Thw oposition to the pre 2014 government wanted to end the contract on the base, nobody would attack it, but they could be evicted
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
What a fantastic reason to start a war and kill some hundred thousand people! Thanks for letting us know that Russia simply couldn't do anything else.
Ashenveiled@reddit
nobody died in crimea.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
NOBODY? Literally NOBODY died in Crimea? NEVER? Not in 2014? Not since? NOBODY died in Crimea?
Is that the newest joke out of the Russian propaganda troll factory? Are you trying to justify the violation of a sovereign nation's borders by claiming that it's okay because they didn't straight up go in and raze the local population?
What a clown you are.
Ashenveiled@reddit
you are talking about starting a war and killing some hundred thousand people. i answer you - there was no war and nobody died in Crimea in 2014. thats just plain facts that dont care about your emotions.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
I'm talking about starting a war in 2014 by annexing the territory of a sovereign nation and then invading it in 2022, meanwhile financing and equipping terrorist groups in border regions.
That's just plain facts that don't care about your emotions.
Also - you really should use apostrophes, they're not poisonous. I know, they're a little hard to find on a Russian keyboard but you'll manage.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Crimea by itself started nothing. deal with it.
your "facts" are as valuable as your opinion.
>Also - you really should use apostrophes, they're not poisonous. I know, they're a little hard to find on a Russian keyboard but you'll manage.
nah. ill make you suffer
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
lol. That's right. Crimea started nothing. Russia did.
Not nearly as much as you will suffer when you're removed from your online troll job and sent to the meat grinder.
Ashenveiled@reddit
>Not nearly as much as you will suffer when you're removed from your online troll job and sent to the meat grinder.
nah, russia is not ukraine. there is no forced mobilization there.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
HAHAHAHAHAHA. OH MY GOD! HAHAHAHAHA.
You should get your own comedy show.
Just because daddy Putin doesn't call it forced mobilization, doesn't mean it's not happening, you know? Watch what you say. You could be next: https://defence-blog.com/russian-police-raid-moscow-clubs-detain-men-for-military-service/
Ashenveiled@reddit
You do realise that there is a difference between yearly draft and conscription and being sent to Ukraine?
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
You do realize there is a difference between a country fighting a defensive war against an invader with an army at least three times its size and the aggressor country trying to keep its population from revolting by claiming it's not sending conscripts to die in the trenches meanwhile Ukraine's conscription age is still almost 10 years higher than Russias?
Ashenveiled@reddit
>against an invader with an army at least three times its size
that plain lie even according to Zelensky.
Can you like stop spitting bullshit every sentence?
https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines-military-is-980-000-soldiers-strong-zelensky-says/
vuddehh@reddit
"Volunteers" like the soldiers from NK? Volunteer to die for tiny dick putin or face concentration camps.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
It's the plain truth at the beginning of the war. Only an idiot would be surprised by the numbers changing and Ukraine trying to equlise the imbalance over the course of two years of war.
As usual, you fascist apologists only ever accuse of what you do yourself.
Just like there was no war for the first 18 months of the war 👌 sure thing, little man.
Hahahaha volunteers.
Oh boy. The level of delusion is astonishing.
Can you like stop spitting bullshit every sentence?
Ashenveiled@reddit
>It's the plain truth at the beginning of the war.
at the beginning of the war ukraine actually had numerical superiority. thats why Kharkov offensive happened. you are so clueless.
>Hahahaha volunteers. Oh boy. The level of delusion is astonishing.
I can shove your face into proofs all day long, my crazy clueless friend.
https://kyivindependent.com/isw-russia-hopes-to-attract-recruits-without-resorting-to-forced-mobilization/
LearnedZephyr@reddit
What's been happening to the Tartars in Crimea then I wonder.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Nothing really. Tatars are just used for Ukrainian propaganda
Man, there are huge Tatar cities in Russia like Kazan.
LearnedZephyr@reddit
I'm not talking about the historical injustice of the forced removal of the Tatars to Tatarstan. I'm asking about the remaining Tatars in Crimea and what's been happening to them since 2014.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Dafaq? Kazan was created by Tatars thousand year ago
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
How many people were killed in Crimea in 2014 exactly?
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Oh yeah, right! If nobody died in 2014, the rest is just fine. Thank you for pointing that out.
Otherwise I could've thought that it matters that Russia annexed a part of a sovereign country. Which is an act of war.
Go back to your shill factory. You're underdeveloped.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Oh yeah, right! People die every minute, all across the globe. Today in Ukraine, Gaza or Sudan.
Russia annexed a part a sovereign country. Also, almost no shots were fired in Crimea because Crimea is ok with being Russian.
Go back to your chinchilla factory. You're underdeveloped.
vuddehh@reddit
Or, because they dont want to be murdered by Russia?
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Oh, what's that, comrade! You were not supposed to admit that we annexed Crimea! Crimea joined of their own free will! There was no annexation involved.
We must make note of this transgression against sanctioned speech. You will hear from committee.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
It's not, but the US does it, so taking a page out of that playbook.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
BuT tHe Us DoEs It
Whatabout whatabout whatabout lol moron
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Yeah, when your the ones writing the playbook and expecting everyone else to follow the rules, it has a little more impact when you disregard them.
Dimas166@reddit
I didn't say they couldn't do anything else nor did I endorse their actions, just explained their reasons.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Their reasons don't matter. We don't need to justify or even explain the motives of a murderer. We all know the prentenses under which this war was started.
Dimas166@reddit
If you want to solve the murder you have to know the motives.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
There is no mystery and nothing to solve. You seem to believe that this is some kind of game? Real people are really dying because of a madman. What does it matter what triggered him? We don't need to avoid triggering the next psychopath, we need to jail the next one before he can murder.
robber_goosy@reddit
LOL at your wacky reasoning. Why would anybody try to understand the motives of the actors in this war. The side I dont like is clearly mad, period. And lets lock up people that didn't do anything because they might in the future.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Where the fuck does this come from? What? How confused are you?
No. The side who started a full out invasion of a sovereign nation is cleary mad, period. If you need explanations to this you might want to repeat kindergarten.
robber_goosy@reddit
We don't need to avoid triggering the next psychopath, we need to jail the next one before he can murder
And just just calling the actors you dont like madmen is no way to analyse geopolitics and wars. If anybody needs to go back to school it's you.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Yeah, sure, let's not offend the psychopath murderer.
We can't analyse geopolitics if we don't accept the fact that a single person could stop the war at any time. But no, let's pretend that WHATEVER the reasoning of the lunatic might have been, it's still NO justification to send his own people to die and also kill citizens of a SOVEREIGN NATION.
You absolute clown.
Go back to Russian shill training camp. You're undercooked.
robber_goosy@reddit
Wow, the Russo-Ukrainian war sure got you emotional. Hope you'll be able to live with the inevitable harsh peace conditions Ukraine is going to be forced to accept in the near future: No NATO and the loss of a whole lot more territory than they could have gotten away with if they sued for peace in early 2022.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Wow, the Russian war against Ukraine sure got you emotional. Hope you'll be able to live with the inevitable harsh downfall of the Russian state once the war economy collapses and the generations of dead Russians expose the inhumane insanity of Putins delusions.
Also, I hope you don't cry too much about that since the beginning of the invasion two new countries joined NATO and Ukraine will most likely follow soon, meanwhile the potentially still occupied territories will see guerilla war for the foreseeable future.
robber_goosy@reddit
Uhu, looking forward to seeing how your basic r/worldnews r/ukraine takes will evolve when none of that comes true. Reality is starting to catch up with the propaganda you've been fed.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Hahahaha. Right, bro, right. Facts don't care about your feelings.
But hey, that's cool because this makes it easier for Putin to rape the country some more years until he's killed.
It literally doesn't matter what happens to Ukraine in regards to how much Putin fucked Russia. He also managed to make live hell for a lot of people outside of Russia, that's granted. But oh boy did he fuck his country.
But yeah, when reality catches up with you, you will be surprised to see that Europe is not actually poor and helpless and shivering in the cold winter like your propaganda apparatchiks claimed two winters ago. Russia on the other hand... the peasants outside the big cities are at least still used to the way of life you all will have.
robber_goosy@reddit
Cool, and all it took for NATO to achieve all that was to convince Ukraine to continue a war they could never win. Great succes! But hey, you said it yourself, it doesnt matter what happens to Ukraine.
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
Oh, this had nothing to do with NATO, you clown.
All it took for this to achieve was for Russia to start a "three day special military operation" they could never win and then cry about how NATO supplies weapons to an allied state under attack from an imperialist war criminal. Great success!
And if we want to talk about what I said, let's stick with all that I said, not just the part you pick out to make fun of:
It does very much matter to the rest of the world what happens to Ukraine. That's why they get so much support and why Russia is more and more isolated.
But hey, you keep doing your propaganda troll farm job as long as you can keep it, little buddy! You'll sure miss it when you're sent off to the meat grinder.
robber_goosy@reddit
Lol, keep digging that hole. It will only make you look more stupid in the near future. Fucking NATO is at the core of this conflict. You can count on it that the coming negotiations are going to be about Ukraine not joining NATO despite all of the bullshit you and the other nafoids have been spewing all across the main subreddits the last couple of years.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
You dont need to know the motive when you have a video of murderer commiting murder.
Nethlem@reddit
Then why are you asking to know them?
Again: Then why did you ask?
Apparently you don't, yet you also insist reasons and explanations should be given, yet don't matter, even after you specifically asked for them..
FeeeFiiFooFumm@reddit
I never did.
Again: I never did.
Apparently you can't read or you just like to make shit up.
Either way you're wrong on all accounts.
EngineerNo2650@reddit
Sounds like a good reason to join a defensive pact.
Ashenveiled@reddit
There was 0 chance that new pro western goverment after the coup would countinue to lease the base.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Crimea was going to secede regardless. They had enough of Ukraine’s bs.
AccelRock@reddit
In Russian is NATO another word for crustacean or some kind of aquatic life form? What if it's all just a big misunderstanding and they're just really want protection against the fish? /s
Nethlem@reddit
Protesters Storm Crimean Parliament
Crimean prime minister appeals to Russia for help
Can you point to similar incidents, and requests, from Syrian/Cuban officials regarding the US military presence and "Special Operations" in Syria/Guantanamo Bay?
Just like making annexation out as something bad: The people of Puerto Rico to this day would love to be properly annexed by the US, instead of being treated like a de-facto colony and the people there classified as "alien races" and "savage tribes" to deny them equal rights.
Do you think the US military could do to US citizens things like: Bann them from owning firearms abduct them, torture them, kill them, in the way the US has been doing for the last 20+ years to Iraqi people?
Do you think the over a million Iraqi people went: "At least we weren't annexed!" before they were killed?
re_carn@reddit
Since when is something like this grounds for annexation?
Nethlem@reddit
Since such a precedent was set with the SFRY all over the 90s.
Back then the US argued the people of Yugoslavia had a right to self-determination which should allow them to secede from the SFRY/Serbia, and in the case of Kosovo even helped enforce that alleged right with NATO military power.
A near WWIII level escalation for which no UNSC mandate existed, NATO forces bombing civilian targets with cluster munitions, in a full-blown war of aggression too many people nowadays have completely forgotten about.
It apparently is a good thing when the US and NATO do it in Europe and the Middle East?
That's also why these days you can see CNN give interviews to literal terrorists, the same terrorists shaking hands with all kinds of Western officials, as long as they ain't women, and having the FBI bounty on their head revoked.
But to get back to the actual point: Over 20 years ago NATO military power established a precedent with Kosovo, how people have a right to self-determination that goes as far as justifying secessionism backed by foreign military power.
If the people of Kosovo have such a right, then why don't the people of Crimea have it also? And just like Ukraine has a right to decide what alliances/unions/federations it can join, so has a newly independent Kosovo/Crimea.
That's why the Western position on this topic is so hypocritical: If what happened in Crimea is illegal, then so should be the secessionism of Kosovo, anything else is just the usual double standard applied of "Do as we say not as we do!".
re_carn@reddit
No, it's not. Have any other arguments?
So, now "secede" and "annexation" are the same?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Spot on. US act smarter and more cynical. They do not annex, they simply milk their proxy colonies. Case in point: Iraqi oil.
loggy_sci@reddit
The U.S. didn’t make profits off of Iraqi oil.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Hahahahahahahaha haha.
Lol.
gregaustex@reddit
The people of Puerto Rico have always voted against statehood.
Mundane_Emu8921@reddit
Yup. Exactly that. NATO really wanted to capture the Black Sea fleet intact.
Or they wanted to contain Russian influence by creating bases near it.
NATO has not changed since it was created. It still naturally has to contain Russia.
AccelRock@reddit
It's untrue to suggest that Russia just wanted a treaty and would be content. They very clearly want a piece of Ukraine.
A treaty is about preventing loss for Russia. If they wanted peace or treaties they could have returned territory and negotiated a deal long ago. But no. What Russia wants is to GAIN not to prevent loss. This reality is very clear. Russia has not suggested a single legitimate scenario where they make a deal and return territory. To suggest Russia is not in it for the territory is either foolishly ignorant or a deliberate lie.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Russia fears NATO with the US in it, hence why it’s trying to create a wedge between the US and Europe. By itself, Europe would not be able to defend itself against Russia because it doesn’t have the stockpiles or industrial capacity to win a war of numbers against Russia, which is what the war would be like since Europe wouldn’t be able to take out Russian AA effectively.
Command0Dude@reddit
The whole conflict started because Ukraine tried to sign a trade agreement with the EU that would block further political reunification with Russia vis a vi the Union State.
Russia saw its former colony slipping from its grasp so they started a war in Ukraine.
Lyricanna@reddit
As an American, I'd start looking at a possible future of a NATO without the USA. I'm sorry, but we clearly can't run our own country here, and while a significant portion of our population still supports you guys, I doubt our new leadership does.
Minimum_Crow_8198@reddit
Hey everyone how about we make a deal with these oligarchs?
We have a war but they and their families go to the front line and are the ones to fight. Money for equipment can also come from their very rich bank accounts.
VicenteOlisipo@reddit
The unfathomable hypocrisy of Rutte saying this, when he was a penny-pinching austeritarian during his almost 14 years as Prime Minister. How further along on a truly European defense industry (and spending) could we be if he hadn't shot down joint initiatives and spending over and over again? To say nothing of Dutch spending by itself.
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
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We've found 71 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
Politico Europe (Leans Left): "Rethink welfare to finance military splurge, NATO boss tells European Parliament"
Washington Top News (Center): "European defense heavyweights say meeting Trump’s military spending target won’t be easy"
The Epoch Times (Right): "NATO Secretary General Rutte Speaks at the European Parliament"
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