Since the Balkans was colonized for some time, do you feel connection to other colonized people around the world?
Posted by ridesharegai@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 101 comments
Title
KatibanTheGreat@reddit
Hi, your average Turkish guy from Berlinhere, please be easy on the downvotes. I am only sharing my knowledge(i.e. how I know it.) If there is any person disagreeing, or has opposing evidence, please share it with me. I am more than willing to read and learn if I made mistakes.
And lastly, I would be greatful if you read until the end.
I believe the idea that Ottomans 'Colonised' the Balkans as a far fetched exaggeration, if not a accusation outright.
First thing to understand is,There has been Multiple types of empires, which were established around certain ideas, such as trade empire of Dutch, religious empires of caliphates, state/beurocracy empire like Ming from china and even dynastic feudal empires of Angevins(i.e. anglo french nobles). Of course lastly, Conquest; An empire which is heavily invested in war and the economy driven thanks to war. Such as Mughals, or more fittingly for this case, Ottomans.
Lets be fair and Square. Ottomans was a empire, which revolced around the goal of 'conquest'. This has been their motivation for most of the time, at least until Tulip age ' Lale Devri.). And to be completely honest, Ottomans did place turkoman tribes to the conquered teritories(iskan sistemi), both to solidate their gains, strengthen control, and develop/improve their agrarian economy and timar sistemi.
But it has to be pointed out, and this is VERY IMPORTANT IMO, this policy is completely different from what we categorize as 'colonisation', since the outcomes of the process is very different. The Conquest of Ottomans in balkans was not followed by any forced relocation, mass subjugation, and only slight cases of forced conversions. The conquests of Ottomans however, did not result in Mass Slave Estates, run only for profit. I.E. Colonial territories, which was most prominent in 18th century.
A slav's life in 18th century Ottoman controlled serbia, could not be compared to the sheer suffering people had to endure under colonial powers. be it spanish in south america, dutch in southeast asia, english and americans in north america, french in carabians. And of course, most notoriously all of europe in africa.
Only example/objection that easily comes to mind, and contradicts my words is (at least to my knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong.) devshirme/devşirme system. A tax system where people could give their children to state, in return for a tax cut.
Which, if I am not mistaken, was very rarely practiced, since the number of janisaries in Ottoman empire never exceeded 100k, whilst population in balkans was more than 4 million. so even if every houselhold in the entirety of balkans consisted of 10 members, that would still mean only 1 in 4 households. a 3:1 ratio was not majority last time I checked math.
But, I like to point out that, even within janisary system, which some may consider the worst outcome, a common born peasent boy could become a army commander, or a statesman (Entire Köprülü family is the most famous example, being of albanian origin, they are still one of the richest and most influencal families in turkey.) this was something unheard in europe until napeleonic era.
And last thing I want to mention is, only as a sidenote, Ottomans built nearly ALL of their infrastuctures in balkan teritories; roads, trade markets, mosques, courthalls, and even weapon and ammo manufactures centers(such as baruthanes(gunpowder houses) of greece. No colonial power has spent really THAT much in their colonial territories. just look at any former colonial nation, and tell me what you can see the colonisers left.
This may sound like a tinfoil hat theory, but to be honest, I geniunely think this is one of the trends when some people claim some shit on internet, and people with less knowledge just nod their heads and go through with it.
kaubojdzord@reddit
Neither Ottoman nor Austro-Hungarian Empires were colonial.
SerboBosnianCroat@reddit
Did AH empire not extract resources from Bosnia?
kaubojdzord@reddit
You could argue BiH as some sort of semi-colony, but it still isn't comparable to African and Asian colonies.
SerboBosnianCroat@reddit
It might not be at the same scale, but one can still say that Bosnia was taken advantage of by larger powers similar to other oppressed peoples throughout history.
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
No. I'm actually annoyed as morons try to tell me that as a white guy I'm guilty of colonization. I'm for meritocracy.
MISTER_WORLDWIDE@reddit
One shouldn’t feel guilty for the actions of another group’s ancestor’s centuries ago just for simply sharing the same skin color as them.
That being said, meritocracy is nothing but a self-deluding myth. It is pushed by the economic elite for a good reason.
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
First thing is "group guilt". Like "Germans killed Bosnians in ww2, therefore Germans now owe Bosnians something". It goes against every established legal system.
Meritocracy means: "if you're polite and honorable with me, I'll be polite and honorable with you". It's got nothing to do with the elite. It means treating each individual according to the merit of that individual's actions.
MISTER_WORLDWIDE@reddit
That isn’t meritocracy though. That’s just being respectful. This is the meaning of meritocracy:
It’s a concept invented in the 1950s and if it was true, Tesla would have died rather wealthy instead of in poverty.
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
If you understand treating as progress your definition and my definition are the same.
How did Tesla come into this?
MISTER_WORLDWIDE@reddit
“Meritocracy” isn’t progress, it’s the opposite. The sociologist who invented the concept meant for it to be a word of pejorative ridicule and not something worthy of praise and to aspire towards.
Tesla is proof that effort + intelligence alone will get you nowhere in life, the opposite of what meritocracy preaches.
ridesharegai@reddit (OP)
That's what is so neat. We are the only white people who can't be led to feel guilt about that because we were colonized too!
Hallo34576@reddit
No white person have to feel guilty about anything another white person did 100-500 years ago.
ridesharegai@reddit (OP)
I agree, but still people want to make white people feel guilty because I don't know why maybe it makes them feel better about their life. I'm saying that won't work on us because it doesn't apply.
CmdrJemison@reddit
Who cares about what others think? 🤷
Alexander241020@reddit
The only other Europeans it doesn’t work on is Italians because A) we can respond ‘yeah but you Africans/arabs started it with Carthage, how far back u wanna go?’ B) we are still a bit too selfish/clannish to care
Xinpincena@reddit
Now I am also against this white guilt American bs but Italians have colonised Lybia, Eritrea and part of Ethiopia
Alexander241020@reddit
Sure but my point is because of reasons A and B it just doesn’t bother many Italians - ofc that’s changing a bit with young generations as Italy becomes more globalised but for sure, totally different experience compared to dealing with Germans or Brits on this topic
Xinpincena@reddit
It's also because the Italians didn't manage to implement a real slave-based economy, the crimes were done mainly during the wars. Also the occupation was shorter in time
Ragipi12@reddit
The balkans were invaded yes but not colonized. Also there isn't a country or people on earth that hasn't been invaded at some point, the English and the French(gauls) were both invaded and even genocided by the Romans for example. History of the world is people doing bad things to other people. Then said people in return do bad things to the other people when they have the chance to.
Stukkoshomlokzat@reddit
The English (the Anglo - Saxions) went to the British Isles AFTER the Romans.
MCOC81@reddit
Slavs colonized the Balkans if you want to take it there. They are not native or indigenous to the balkans. Just saying.
Stukkoshomlokzat@reddit
Slavs did not colonise the Balkans. They were tribes who migrated there.
Colonisation is a resoult of an already existing state expanding into new territories that come under the control of the central government or someone appointed by it.
Non of that fit the Slavs.
MisterViic@reddit
What do you mean by colonized? By slavs? Cumans? Pachenegs? Huns? Turks? Germans? Hungarians? Define colonization first, please.
ridesharegai@reddit (OP)
There is a well established definition of colonization
MisterViic@reddit
In the balkans this has happened continuously for thousands of years, until a few hundred years ago. Most of the new arrivals mingled or were assimilated or transformed the existing "natives", meaning the former waves of migrators. All Eauropean peoples were created like this.
There were two forms of shitty colonizations, though. The turkish one. They brought people and demanded children as tribute, to serve in their Janissary Corps. And the shittiest of them all (for Romania) was the Russian colonization. They took the land, brought people and sent the romanians to Siberia and the far east.
But no, we don't feel a connection to other colonized people. It's just how history works. The strong do what they want, the weak suffer what they must.
Traditional_Eagle554@reddit
Why are natives in quotes? Don’t you believe they are?
MisterViic@reddit
Well, who are the natives? At what point in time do you start? 10.000 years ago? 1000? Nowaday (the illegal immigrants, muslims and africans being the latest batch of colonizers) ?
Traditional_Eagle554@reddit
Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians. Is this an acceptable response? I consider them native because there is no proof or record of their migration to the Balkans.
Stukkoshomlokzat@reddit
All of the people you mentioned are the descendants of Indo - Europeans who migrated to the place where people already inhabited the area. This IE migrations are proven.
EleFacCafele@reddit
and Dacians too.
MisterViic@reddit
Well, there is proof. Before the Greeks where the Ionians and Dorians. Before them...Homo neanderthalensis :))))
I'm mentioning this only to emphasise there is no point in looking at this from a native / colonizer perspective. Because at any point in time, a native was a descendant of a colonizer.
Traditional_Eagle554@reddit
Neither the Dorians nor the Ionians migrated to the Balkans. So, are we just talking for the sake of talking? I prefer a constructive discussion. Of course, tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago, we came from somewhere, but no trace of it has been found, that's the difference.
Asparukhov@reddit
There really isn’t.
Elegant-Spinach-7760@reddit
You mean the slavic tribes, hungarians or other nomadic populations? You refer to them as colonizers?
Stukkoshomlokzat@reddit
I think he refers to the Ottomans or the AH Empire.
Slkotova@reddit
You don't use the word "colony" properly. Colony is when the central government is detached from the lands it governs.
India was British colony. Congo was Belgian colony etc.
The ottoman empire governed the lands it has conquered (not colonised) directly.
So the answer to your question is most probably - no. We have different experience than the colonised nations.
ridesharegai@reddit (OP)
You seem to think only far away lands can be colonized but that's simply not true. There is an exact definition of colony and it does not require the colony to be "detached". That is what you FEEL a colony should be but feelings are not facts, sorry.
I want my colonized victimhood, damn it!
Slkotova@reddit
Not about far away lands, but about how they were governed. By sending people to create colonies and govern the local people, because the central government is detached. Otherwise you might argue Austria colonised Galicia or Russia colonised eastern Poland which is clearly not the term being used in historiography.
I understand your frustration btw, can we go back to the normal victimhood and cry how they destroyed our medieval countries? :(
Belissari@reddit
Didn’t they essentially do that?
The Ottoman Empire used Devsirmes to rule over Greece, a bit like how the Spanish converted Natives to Christianity and those converted people then helped the Spanish conquer more Native land. Turkish peasant populations did show up in Greece at that point in history as well.
Sorry if I said anything wrong, I don’t know much about Ottoman history.
Slkotova@reddit
Oh.. okay, let's see:
Firstly, the Devshirme is a type of "tax" in a way. It can't be send anywhere to rule over anyone. Also the janissaries are a professional army, they don't have administrative functions, so no, again they can't rule over anyone, they just fight.
Secondly, the way the Ottomans conquered the Balkans was very methodical and steady and it was done by taking neighbouring territories one after another, pushing and pushing - a classical territorial expansion, incorporating the new territories into the administrative system of the central government. Maybe you better read a book about it, because I'm not good in explaining in simple words. I suggest Hallil Inalcik's book on the Ottoman classical period. There is no one better.
I essence - calling the territorial expansions of one's mainlands, however huge it is, colonialism, is just not right by definition.
ridesharegai@reddit (OP)
Mm no, we qualify as former colonies. So I'll just take my victim trophy and go sit with the American Indians and we can be besties.
MijoVsEverybody@reddit
From a diaspora point of view, yes
No_Junket4368@reddit
Of course not. No one in the Balkans gives a shit about other colonized people.
AnalysisQuiet8807@reddit
And no colonised people give a shit about Balkans
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
I feel connection to the Palestinian people (not Hamas, the existence of which is still a result of oppression by Israel).
SORRYCAPSLOCKBROKENN@reddit
When were the Balkans colonized? lmao
CmdrJemison@reddit
What you mean? Balkan colonized the whole world.
hamiltonkg@reddit
Some nations and peoples choose not to frame their entire existence around victimhood and oppression.
dg-rw@reddit
Yeah, but some do, and there are at least some nations in the Balkan who are not exempt from that.
AlbanianDoomer5@reddit
not a single nation in the balkans does that
dg-rw@reddit
Yeah sure, I've never heard an Albanian talk about how it's the Serbians who are at fault. Or the Serbian how everything is the fault of Turks/Albanians or Americans.
AlbanianDoomer5@reddit
Just because you heard something that doesn't mean it's what the vast majority believes or that a country was built upon that idea , the average person will tell you it's the politicians, corruption etc, the typical you hear all the time, what you definitely don't hear all the time is "yes bro,we poor because of Serbia" or "we poor because of Americans/Albanians" for the Serbian case
hamiltonkg@reddit
I do like getting Serbs and Albanians talking about each other though lmfao.
EleFacCafele@reddit
Firstly, Romanian Principalities were vassal states, not colonies. Secondly, as a white European I have zero, nil, none, zilch white guilt. I leave the white guilt to those people who had overseas colonies..
Thom606@reddit
Do you identify as White? I am Romanian but it seems here this idea of "white" doesn't really exist.
We do have some distinctions along ethnicity lines ie Romanian, Gipsy, Hungarian etc... but whiteness? not so much. Skin color is a pretty irrelevant concept in Romania I feel.
I also don't think most Romanians feel any identity to western European nations - especially once they go there, the differences are clear, and you can tell how culturally different we are. Some choose to align themselves to western habits more completely but some habits cannot be shaken.
Could be it's just me but I feel most western concepts of colonization, whiteness, guilt, identity etc, don't apply very well in the Balkans, or outside the Western world really. Indians for instance have a caste system and skin color system inside a single ethnicity, and there are many other examples from all over the world where this simplistic western model doesn't really apply.
EleFacCafele@reddit
In terms of what is understood as white Europeans, all of us in Romania are white Europeans.
dorobica@reddit
You make zero sense in the context of the question asked or otherwise..
ESC-H-BC@reddit
Sorry, but you can't compare what happened in the Balkans with whay happened with Africa, America or Asia under european invasions.
Its almost as saying Catalonia is a colony of Spain or Scotland is a colony from Britain.
albardha@reddit
Define what you mean by colonization.
Middle ages Albanian settlements in Italy are called Albanian colonies, (or Arbëreshe colonies), but they were founded by Albanian refugees of the Ottoman Empire, not from a hypothetical Albanian Empire taking over Italg, so I don’t think this is the colonization you are talking about. (Although as we all know, the world was once Albanian, but Albania good countrie so it gave land to other countrys).
etnoexodus@reddit
No, other colonised nations are still crying about it today and excusing their inadequacies through the fact they were colonised.
I'm sure you may hear old people complain about the Ottomans if you ask them, but this is never mentioned in politics, we will not ask Turkey for reparations xD
dg-rw@reddit
Yeah sure it's never Ottoman's fault. Or the West's. A pinnacle of self-reflection.
latalatala@reddit
I like Irish history and I think that there are some parallels to Albanian history especially in Kosovo, but I don’t feel any sort of connection to them really.
SeeIt_SayIt_Sorted@reddit
Ottomans were a very much traditional Empire and not a colonial one. They conquered the Balkans and did not colonise it. They mostly had a technological and institutional upper hand, but not to the extent that European nations had against natives. The Ottomans never truly managed to industrialised and never turned mercantile enough to turn the Balkans into extraction economies.
So no.
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
Τhey definitely colonised them in the sense that they settled there a considerable number of people (ie Muslim Ottomans) that formed the governing elite (to which one can added the converted population) and extracted taxes, goods and people from the native population - but not as effectively as Western colonisers did from the 15th century onwards.
SeeIt_SayIt_Sorted@reddit
It is true that they extracted people, but those people could hardly be called slaves and not compared to charter slavery… previously we thought that the terrible aspect of this was loosing contact with your family, but now we have considerable evidence that not only did these military/governing educated people had contact with their families they sent money back to them and funded charity projects in their villages of origin… how can you compare this to any of the Western Empires is beyond me.
They extracted resources and taxes in a similar manner England did in Yorkshire.
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
Mmm, slavery was an Ottoman institution indeed, especially after wars. You are probably talking about an elite minority, esp Janissaries I guess, here? ''We have considerable evidence that not only did these military/governing educated people had contact with their families''. Most slaves didn't have that. And even Janissaries, a considerable part were removed from their families when they were very young and converted violently. Not all though, some were offered from their families. It varies. But Ottoman slavery was a much broader phenomenon.
No, Ottomans extracted resources and taxes in the same way, or similar, that England extracted them from India, it's just that they lacked the industry England (well, Britain) had to exploit them more effectively.
Re the current economic development of the Balkans, that's really a very complicated topic to discuss here, if anything because there's a big discrepancy between Balkan countries and so much happened in the post-Ottoman era, eg Communism. Slovenia for example is relatively rich, Albania is poor - and it might not be a coincidence that Slovenia was the least affected from the Ottoman experience. Greece at some point in the early 00s had a GDP bigger than all the other Balkan nations COMBINED. Yes, combined. In general, wouldn't attribute the current economic status of the Balkans exclusively to the Ottoman era, but it did play a major role. If anything we missed Rennaissance and the Englightenment, and one could argue Byzantium was on the verge of embracing the former before the Ottomans took over.
SeeIt_SayIt_Sorted@reddit
I told you they can blame their status to the Ottomans being underdeveloped, but Slovenia benefited from Austria-Hungary’s industrialisation what Slovenia was not was not a core part of Austrian Empire… Bulgaria and Northern Greece were and indeed those were the regions expected to industrialise and spread wealth to the rest of the Empire as the CORE OF IT.
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
I will keep that 'Slovenia benefited from Austria-Hungary’s industrialisation' bit, not really sure what to make the rest of your comment about cores and peripheries (why were Bulgaria and Northern Greece the core and why were they expected to industrialise? no clue whatsoever...), it's a bit non-sensical. And I am not crying about anything. Greece is actually a developed country even after the crisis.
Fun_Deer_6850@reddit
Turks in the sub be like.
CyberSosis@reddit
They say colonial I say bring the band together once again
Fit_Plane_8060@reddit
ooo Turci youtube
Yes, the remnants of colonization are still visible in certain religions that are present to this day in the Balkans. For example, the Turks introduced Islam, which is still practiced.
Yucelljkj@reddit
As far as I remember, we were not colonised, but we were in danger of being colonised. We have sympathy for colonised people because of the Mongol invasion, the Turkish war of independence and because we were seen as sub-human beings, sick men of Europe.
ciprian-miles@reddit
the colonizer being afraid of colonialism.
Yucelljkj@reddit
What makes you think I don't know that?
ciprian-miles@reddit
I have only love and respect for Turks who dont try to deny simple historical facts. Sadly, the vast majority are not like you
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
one could argue that Turks were a colonizer in the Balkans
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
They were the colonisers indeed
Yucelljkj@reddit
We know that. The invader of yesterday may become the colonized of another time.
Yucelljkj@reddit
What makes you think I don't know that?
astajaznan@reddit
Maybe this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
Yucelljkj@reddit
I'll say it again. I know about the Ottoman Empire and I know that it was an occupier, now do you get it?
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Do you have sympathy for the Kurds?
Yucelljkj@reddit
For Kurds who don't hate me, yes.
ve_rushing@reddit
We were under so many empires - the Roman Empire, Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire, USSR...(now EU?) so it's kind of normalized.
Apart of our neighbors I think we have good cultural connections with Armenia,
albo_kapedani@reddit
Great! The Westerners victim-complex.
BankBackground2496@reddit
Huh?
dorobica@reddit
Maybe the romans? But that’s ages ago
Spagete_cu_branza@reddit
As a Romanian I haven't conolized or been conolized by anyone.
Jobsworth91@reddit
Not really, the term "colonised' is used incorrectly 90% of the time anyway, so I tend to just switch off every time I hear it being mentioned.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
I do. But that's most probably because I lived it up until 25 years ago (Kosovo here), contrary to others here.
Magistar_Idrisi@reddit
Croatia was never colonized so idk
elusivemoods@reddit
Austro_bugar@reddit
No, hate victim complex.
Stverghame@reddit
No. Our struggle is our struggle only. Theirs is their only.
HanDjole998@reddit
What do you mean by colonised
New_Accident_4909@reddit
New_Accident_4909@reddit
The what?
LektikosTimoros@reddit
Lol no.
whattheheck83@reddit
Yes, i sympathise with oppressed people.
zarotabebcev@reddit
Sure, why not