For anyone who has a career in programming how clearly did you understand JavaScript and other languages before getting hired?
Posted by Flo_moon@reddit | learnprogramming | View on Reddit | 45 comments
I’ve been grinding like 40+ hours a week on free code camp. I’ve really been enjoying it and understood CSS and HTML quite well. Now I’m working on my JavaScript certification which I’m struggling to understand. I’ll figure out the task it ask me to complete but when I submit it and it passes it feels as if I’m not understanding why it’s passing and I’m just doing the course without learning? There’s just so many codes… it’s normal to not remember them all right? I want to be a programmer so bad this course has been my only focus lately.
Would finding a project to work on teach me more then a bootcamp? I have a buddy that’s a programmer and has been in the career for about 8 years and told me it’s a career where you’re always learning and even the best programmers still get stuck on things. So I’m curious how do I know if I’m learning at the right pace? Also for example I can figure out the code it ask me to complete but let’s say it gave me 50 lines of code and said fix all of the errors I would be lost.
Can someone please inform me the best way to truly learn JavaScript and understand it. Or if I just need to keep practicing thru repetition? How good do you have to be to land a junior developer job?
AppState1981@reddit
Not at all. I learned it after I got into the position
aqua_regis@reddit
As nearly every beginner, you are conflating two entirely different things: learning JavaScript, the programming language and learning programming.
Learning the programming language is like learning vocabulary and grammar of a spoken language. This is the easy part. You don't even need to memorize the vocabulary as you can always look up the exact syntax.
Learning programming is an entirely different beast. It is learning to write a meaningful, comprehensive, fully developed novel in the language you choose.
You need to split these two processes apart.
Work on abstracting the programming part. Sit down with pen(cil) and paper and ponder about your task before programming. Analyse and break down the task into smaller steps. Then, solve each of the smaller steps individually, your way, not for the computer. Don't even think about programming at that stage. Develop your own solution. Track down the steps you take and test them. Refine them. Once you have a working solution, start translating the steps into code. Ideally, your solution would be so fine grained that each step basically turns into a single program instruction.
In the old days, we had to draw flow charts before we were allowed to even go near the computers. We had to prepare our programs in minute details and this will also help you in the long range because once you are at the step where you can derive algorithmic step-by-step solutions to problems, you can implement them in any programming language you know.
Don't focus on the code. Code is only the final product, not the beginning. The beginning is a task/problem. The manufacturing process is the considerations, thoughts, design of your solution. The final implementation is the code - the end product.
What I'm trying to say is not to look at the complete car. Look at the process to arrive at the complete car, starting from the idea to the design, to the design validation, to the manufacturing, to the testing, to the final car.
Beregolas@reddit
Exactly this. This is the correct answer every time this is asked, I’m glad I didn’t have to type it out this time XD.
Languages aren’t hard, programming is hard. When I was hired for my first position, they spontaneously changed the tech stack to JS while I was onboarding. I’ve never used JS before, so I sat down and learned it in a weekend. I knew more about some parts of the language than my colleagues, just because I knew more programming in general and applying that to JS was just switching out keywords and remembering the handful of things that work differently.
Flo_moon@reddit (OP)
A weekend… I’m assuming you were already pretty knowledgeable by that point because I consider myself someone who picks up on things quickly and It doesn’t feel fluent at all to me. I’m starting to understand it but I want to create my own projects soon and just seems impossible without like an AI assistant lol
Fit-Pound-3098@reddit
He didn't learned JS on a weekend. He learned just enough to keep adding to the basic stuff as he goes.
Fit-Pound-3098@reddit
Obligatory TSoding tweet.
irrelevantly_lost@reddit
Damn. Incredibly well put. People spend countless hours searching for the “answer” to programming (anything in life really). We’ll here it is. It’s right here, it’s golden, straightforward and free.…Bravo. Bra-freaking-vo.
GreenEyedAlien_Tabz@reddit
Can you kindly provide some resources that can help with this approach?
aqua_regis@reddit
Some books:
These books describe a formal, pragmatic approach to programming. Don't mind the programming languages that are used, they are mainly for illustration. The last book, "Code" goes in greater depth and might not yet be relevant. I'd start with the first one.
Old_Rush_3093@reddit
Hi! As a beginner in programming, with poor experience as I just did CS50X and that was it, I'll make sure to look for these books and find something that can help me. Thank you!
GreenEyedAlien_Tabz@reddit
Thank you for the help and suggestions. Will definitely try and read these. Hope they are easy to.understand and grasp.
boomer1204@reddit
This \^\^\^\^\^\^\^
wiriux@reddit
Sit down with ~~pen(cil)~~ and paper
Always pencil :)
aqua_regis@reddit
TBH, personally, I switched to an e-ink tablet 2 years ago. Convenience of paper-like working with the convenience of deleting, altering, common storage, etc.
wiriux@reddit
That works too. I just meant pen and paper should never be a choice.
inbetween-genders@reddit
It's ok. Like countless others they will ignore your advice and be fluent in the said language while the job description is actually writing poetry.
firestepper@reddit
Just take cs50 on Harvard online. I got my first entry level job after doing that and doing free code camp
Flo_moon@reddit (OP)
Did you do the entire free code camp?
Rhemsuda@reddit
I’ve never known a language before getting hired to use it
Flo_moon@reddit (OP)
How the world did you get hired then…
Rhemsuda@reddit
Programming is programming. You just need to build things that are impressive. It doesn’t matter what language you use I’ve always learned the language on the job and basically just did 30 minutes of syntax practice before coding interviews
CarelessPackage1982@reddit
That part is absolutely true.
Regarding languages. Imagine that you took several semesters of a foreign language in Uni. That basically what taking a programming course in a specific language is like.
Now imagine, you spend an entire year living in that country. Interacting with the locals, the culture and doing your best to learn the language. There's aspects of the language that you'll learn that aren't available in any book or in any course. The changes in culture are non-trivial. That is like actually knowing the language. You need to live in it for awhile. You need to read enough of other's code to understand the conventions. You need to have learned the lessons about the edge cases, and how you accomplish things you want to do or are asked to do.
When you use a JS library have you read through the code? Do you know who wrote it? Do you know what dependencies it uses? Have you looked through those code repos as well? You should. Who owns NPM? How does it even work? Do you know who wrote JS? Do you know who wrote Node? What are their thoughts on the language and ecosystem? What about who's in charge of the language itself? How does that work? Who's in charge? How about the runtimes? Is any of that truly important?
This is the average work week for a developer. I'm curious if you spent that same amount of time building things if you'd learn more or less... Maybe start following a few of the code repos of libraries you use. Pay attention to the PR's and issues. You'll learn just by observing the discussion.
MSFTInducedAneurysm@reddit
As others have said here, the best way to learn is to decide on a project and build it yourself. From scratch.
What you'll probably find is that you sit there and stare at the screen with little to no idea how to proceed. This is actually a good thing, in my opinion, because it tells you that your problem isn't with coding, it's with the process of developing software.
So, go through your own discovery session. What's the working criteria for your project? What do you want your app to do? Think in terms of deliverables, not learning. Be your own client and get clear on what you want to build.
Now you're feeling overwhelmed again, so break it down into smaller deliverables. What's the simplest thing that you can create now? And what comes after that? And after that?
Most real-world projects will introduce the idea of a minimum viable product. You ask the client to detail everything that they want and then you negotiate on a minimum set of features that will deliver a partial, working solution while satisfying constraints of budget, time, resources, and technology.
You can take this approach as you learn as well. What's your pie-in-the-sky vision of a dream application, and what's the minimum viable version of that? Look for the quick-wins that you can deliver (to yourself) with what you know now and build them.
Even it your first win is just a landing page that say's, "Here's where I sign in", build it. And then look at what comes next, and what comes after that.
At each step you'll need to learn something more. So research it, build it, and bolt it onto what you've already accomplished.
Now you're figuring out that some of those pieces aren't fitting together so great (or at all), so you'll need to backtrack. Best Learning Experience Ever. Next time you'll know not to go down that path.
A developer's life is all about solving problems, and minimally about learning syntax. As I believe someone else has said here, writing a novel isn't about knowing how to hold a pencil.
Hope this helps.
Keep reaching out when you've got questions, and best of luck in your development journey.
jmnugent@reddit
What if you don't know what those "smaller pieces" even are ?... Like,. if I was an alien from outer space and I saw my first Car,. and someone said "Well just break it down into smaller pieces" (assuming I knew what an engine or transmission or suspension systems were).. but I don't. I've literally never ever seen a car before.
As someone whos' spent a career on the IT Sysadmin side,. this explains a lot about software quality. ;)
MSFTInducedAneurysm@reddit
Well I'm assuming that the OP isn't an alien, so has some idea of what the components of a web application are (given that they've been studying HTML, CSS and JavaScript).
But, point taken. If it's unclear what components are required, then that's the first research task.
The point I was trying to make in my response to the OP was that figuring out how to piece an application together is more beneficial than being able to spot coding errors at a glance. That will come with experience and the best way to gain that experience (again, my opinion) is to build projects and see where the wheels fall off.
Are you saying that iterative development and modularized applications reduce software quality? Can I ask how you came to that conclusion? I'd argue that a modularized approach increases quality by helping to isolate faults, implement security and scaling boundaries, and simplify maintenance.
At any rate, my recommendation to the OP is based on the fact that they are, in all likelihood, going to be working with modular frameworks throughout their career. In my experience, the important (and, often, the most difficult) part is understanding the frameworks. Figuring out what components to use to accomplish what tasks. The language syntax is, well, just syntax and that fluency will come with use.
AlSweigart@reddit
You've already past the first test: Spelling "JavaScript" correctly instead of "Javascript" or "Java Script".
DudeWhereAreWe1996@reddit
Are you learning just JavaScript or a framework? You're gonna want to learn React or Angular. Using typescript if it teaches you that would be even better. Beside that, JavaScript/typescript is nothing like html and css. It's going to take awhile to learn but if you can do an in depth tutorial with one these frameworks then you'd be in a good spot.
I don't know much about bootcamps. I feel like most places around me want a degree but at least one place took in people from bootcamps. I don't have much experience. Either way, html and css don't teach much true programming by themselves so something more in depth with programming in general would be good.
rlv02@reddit
Bit unconventional but I done an intensive 2 month course mainly working with JAVA and restful API with Spring then using some JS with React. I’ve just started a role but looking at another 2/3 of upskilling for the first quarter. My best way for understand was building projects and working applications to actually see what the code was doing not just in theory
jeffrey_f@reddit
I had a project come across my desk to upgrade a green screen (think terminal) application to web. This would be my first step into javascript.
Between googling and just doing the project and also knowing programming logic, I finished about 10 projects.
My searches:
Javascript form validation
javascript and HTML how to input mask a phone number
javascrpt calendar date picker for html form.
supercoach@reddit
I wouldn't say I fully understood JavaScript, but I was able to write complex vanilla JS and manipulate the DOM before I moved onto using any sort of framework. I think it helps to know a little of how things operate behind the scenes.
ilovehaagen-dazs@reddit
it’s honestly pretty simple. the best way to truly learn javascript, or any language for that matter, and to understand it, you must simply just build projects.
you’ll learn so much during and after a project. you’ll get stuck along the way and you’ll have to figure out how to fix bugs. you’ll learn to read code better especially if you’ve written a lot. after u finish a project, you’ll be able to look back on it and say “i could’ve done this and this better” and then in your next project you’ll know mistakes or bad practices to avoid.
also just reading other people’s code can help you.
i’d love to hear what everyone else has to say
Flo_moon@reddit (OP)
Other then just googling or YouTubing projects to build do you have any recommendations to find projects for someone who’s fairly new? I have GitHub and can find projects tons of others have done but I’d like to find a program or something that’s known by coders that I don’t know about haha
FriendlyRussian666@reddit
Honestly, just go with something that actually interests you. It's much easier and better to work on something interesting, than on something you don't care about.
You like football? Do some sort of football website. No, not the one you imagine in your head, because that's too hard, but a sillly, awful looking version of it. Then do it again, with another interesting thing, and again, with another. Eventually you'll do enough to gain more understanding.
Don't follow youtube videos when building. Do follow documentation.
esadkids@reddit
Have to agree with this. Starting to write code is how you will learn code. I'm not at a place where I would be comfortable programming as a career, but I am comfortable enough to get things done in VisualStudio code with just about any language because the amount of libraries and resources out there are huge.
It's honestly not about memorization anymore, it's about creating efficient and effective code with something you're comfortable with.
Html and Javascript aren't going anywhere anytime soon and the more you write the more you'll retain.
artificialcondition@reddit
Yes, you will not really learn simply through mechanical repetition of the free code camp tasks. Programming is a job that requires fluid intelligence for most valuable tasks, so rote learning isn’t the best way to train.
If you don’t enjoy coding by yourself and dealing with the frustration of not knowing and pushing through it, learn how to learn first. Look at books like A Mind for Numbers or How to Solve It for inspiration, or What Smart Students Know. Practiced over many days and months they will give you a lifelong intentional learning framework that might be better than whatever was stitched together in school.
Do code along with videos or courses that explain what they are doing. There are many of these out there depending on the language. Build a game or server with someone, then try doing it yourself. It doesn’t matter that it’s a clone of something that was done many times. The point is for you to internalize some principles.
Free code camp has some decent JavaScript projects iirc (a calculator, a sound board, a markdown editor). They are also worth doing!
Build something you want or need. This is actually harder than it seems, because one of the most valuable things about programming is knowing what to build in the first place. Don’t try something too ambitious when your skills aren’t there, or you’ll frustrate yourself too much. Find the sweet spot where you can do it, but just about.
Know that there will be repetition and waste. You might buy some course that turns to be a dud or that doesn’t vibe with you. In my experience, move towards what you enjoy to make progress faster.
Find yourself a mentor. It might be very useful to have more tailored advice as you advance to avoid falling into comfort traps or going down rabbit holes that won’t help you progress
Flo_moon@reddit (OP)
I only have one friend who’s busy with work and kids that’s a programmer. Or he would probably do a project with me. Any recommendations on how to find others to build a project with? I haven’t messed with Github much I’m assuming there would be team projects on there? Great advice
fella_ratio@reddit
Best way to learn, as others have mentioned: just build. For example, when I first encountered the concept of a callback function, no matter how many tutorials/lectures I watched on callbacks, I never understood it. Yet when I made a simple movie search app, it finally clicked with me as to what they were. I came from an academic background, it took me like 3 years to finally shake off the notion of having to treat coding like an exam you have to study and realize I had to get dirty with coding to truly learn these things.
You as a human being have this extraordinary strength of adapting to uncertainty. Sure you're not in the wilderness fleeing lions but the same strength of figuring things out by doing is what makes you better at coding. You're ultimately learning these things to make things, when you make things you learn them.
nderflow@reddit
Not at all, because it wasn't invented yet when I got my first job.
CampIndecision@reddit
For some of us, JavaScript didn’t exist when we first built websites. Instead we got the joy of Perl.
TheGreatSage-@reddit
I am on the same boat as you. Been grinding for the past month. Finished HTML and CSS courses and currently on Javascript. I feel exactly the same way as you. I can complete the challenges. I don’t breeze through them and sometimes I google and read documentations to solve some of the questions.
I just feel like you can’t memorize everything. Sometimes, I can’t remember certain syntaxes from 10 steps earlier and always googles certain syntaxes to remember the specific formats etc.
I just concluded that I have to try to build my project to truly learn and understand the concepts. Just like everything else, the more you practice the better you will get at it. As soon as I finish the courses on js, I plan to build my own portfolio/bio website before moving forward to front end library section.
the_melancholic@reddit
Hi man, are you employed currently?
Flo_moon@reddit (OP)
I just start self teaching myself a couple months ago. Treating it like a job lol I wish I was employed
Flo_moon@reddit (OP)
I was gonna do the same exact thing! I kinda wanna start a project now and then come back to JavaScript just because I know I’ll understand it more after. Feel free to message me we can keep each other motivated haha
iOSCaleb@reddit
Relative-Scholar9170@reddit
Try https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know-JS by Kyle Simpson