Explain like I’m 5
Posted by Substantial-Green283@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 124 comments
Or give me a history lesson
Posted by Substantial-Green283@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 124 comments
Or give me a history lesson
Chemical-Course1454@reddit
They have Neum, fair is fair. 20km why would you want anything more lol
dwartbg9@reddit
Because 20 km is absolutely nothing, even for a smaller country like Bosnia. You can't build a seaside tourism industry on such small scale. I'd guess there's probably not enough hotels there too.
DuxDucisHodiernus@reddit
didn't croatia also build a bridge blocking the port off from any major seaborne traffic too?
Bosnia is in a tough spot with trade for sure. Only thing that could help would be the EU but not sure when that will happen with all the internal divisions from the last war.
sad times.
AnteChrist76@reddit
All of ships that were taking that route before can still take it now, sea is too shallow there for container ships and smaller ones can just pass under the bridge.
Croatia is loaning a port to Bosnia.
DuxDucisHodiernus@reddit
there's literally a million ways making (or literally one super efficient way to be literal literal) seaways deeper. it's called dredging and we do it all the time here in the country of archipelagos. So it was far from the obstacle the current bridge now is.
AnteChrist76@reddit
They wouldn't cuz they dont own the sea where they would need to do it.
DuxDucisHodiernus@reddit
well unlucky again, neighbor doesn't let them dredge to fix their shipping situation. I guess bonsia is the country of bad luck quite simply?
AnteChrist76@reddit
Yes
Croatia is very corrupt and due to that building of the bridge was postponed for about a decade.
Bosnia is 10 times as corrupt as Croatia and they never even had any plans on how to build infrastructure necessary for creating shipping industry, let alone having money for it. I dont understand logic of Croatia having to stagnate because Bosnia might one day be ready for such a feat.
Besides, even if Croatia was willing to both wait and help that still doesn't mean we wouldn't expect something in return, thats not how these things work, and dont fool yourself into thinking Scandinavian countries give up their points of interest for free to each other either.
RedstarConcepts@reddit
Corruption isn't helped in a land thats held hostage by croat and serb nationalists with a small German man derailing it all if it even goes right, and him always siding with the croats, since they are German's favorite. Croatia even sold land to Emirates that was Bosnias. The corruption is all over Balkan. Also charging people 10 euros for water on the coasts is straight highway robbery lol
AnteChrist76@reddit
Dayton deal is indeed problematic, but that doesn't mean 50% of Bosnia's population should be stripped off their rights.
RedstarConcepts@reddit
50% and what rights are stripped? The place needs one president and one unified nation. Not ethnic nationalist rhetoric.
DuxDucisHodiernus@reddit
but you're otherwise right that there's very little political will do to absolutely anything in bosnia considering how the west divided it into three constantly bickering regions that can't unite for anything.
DuxDucisHodiernus@reddit
"loaning" yes and about the former that is true, and what i said. they never had any major ship traffic and now they will never ever be able to even if they wanted as long as that bridge stands. not saying its absolutely wrong but it's definitely... something.
AnteChrist76@reddit
They wouldn't be able to have it anyway, its too shallow.
Dubl33_27@reddit
Moldova was cucked by russia when it stole bugeac from Moldova and gave it to ukraine
dwartbg9@reddit
Chemical-Course1454@reddit
Ah, poor Moldova, they are literally kilometres from the sea but they don’t have access
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
Does it not touch a bit on the left?
Stealthfighter21@reddit
No, that's a lake.
What's cool is that Romania gave them 500m of access to the Danube so now at least then have a way to the sea
Taro_Careless@reddit
Ukraine did
The Port of Giurgiulești was built as result of a 2005 territorial exchange with Ukraine, where Moldova received a 430 meter bank of the Danube river.
Ukraine was supposed to receive a short section of road that leaves and re-enters Ukrainian territory near the Moldovan village of Palanca (you can see it on the map above).
But Moldova kept the land and gave us only road itself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Giurgiule%C8%99ti
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
Quite convoluted, but a nice example how people can arrange things without resorting to warfare.
Stealthfighter21@reddit
Thanks
VastUnderstanding326@reddit
tragic
XO1GrootMeester@reddit
20 km much longer than none. What about some canal digging to make coastline curve, can make it a 100 if you really try.
RadioFreeDoritos@reddit
If the Soviets gave Transnistria to Ukraine and Budjak to Moldova, the would would be a much happier place now.
DuxDucisHodiernus@reddit
neum is today also blocked from any major sea traffic by a croatian bridge. So they don't even have the copper opportunity if they even wanted it. that's the problem with set-ups like these.
cheers :)
_BaldyLocks_@reddit
They're too dense to float, anyhow
Arberore@reddit
There was once a country known as Ragusa and another country known as Venice. Ragusa and Venice were close to each-other so that you could walk from lands in the country of Venice to lands in the country of Ragusa. Venice did not like Ragusa because money, and Venice was stronger than Ragusa. To not let Venice hurt Ragusa, Ragusa gave some lands to the Ottoman Empire, which was a big Empire that also held the mountains, fields and cities of the country of Bosnia, this way, someone from Venice would have to walk through the Ottoman Empire first to reach Ragusa. Later, Austria, which was stronger than Venice, beat up Venice and conquered it, it also conquered Ragusa, but the Ottoman Empire still owned the small lands Ragusa gave to it. Then a lot of stuff happened and both the Ottoman Empire and Austria died. After they died, Croatia and Bosnia were created, and Croatia owned Ragusa and some beaches that Venice used to own, while the only beach Bosnia owned was the one Ragusa had given to the Ottoman Empire so long ago.
TestingAccountByUser@reddit
My ancestors are the reason bosnia has no sea 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
striderspin123@reddit
Your ancestors are the reason Bosnia exists at all, because this territory used to be Croatia. Also the reason for the balkans being a shithole like all lands where your ancestors pillaged for centuries... But thanks for some tasty foods!
RedstarConcepts@reddit
Your ancestors held a loose grasp on an area of Bosnia for one person's lifetime and you feel it's yours now? 🤣. By your logic, Tvrtko helped conquer Croatian lands and nobles in the 14th century and those held till the later 15th century ubtil ottomans came along, which means we would have held those for over 500 years. Pay up Komšija lol. Past is the past, it needs to die with the rest of you and yours thinking.
striderspin123@reddit
Nah, I belive we are all a mix of slavs and illyrians, same blood and genes, not a nationalist but it does go on my nerve when these memes try to say Croats took the sea from Bosnians
HappyHighway1352@reddit
Well without the ottomans it would've lasted longer as a kingdom and who knows what would've happened.
TestingAccountByUser@reddit
pillaged?
Divljak44@reddit
no, your ancetors are reason the have at all
TestingAccountByUser@reddit
yeah youre right
Any_Assumption_9283@reddit
i started reading this with a melody of “there once was a ship that put to see and the name of the ship was billy o tea”
Arberore@reddit
haha
Any_Solution_4261@reddit
And Venice didn't have any ships, or even boats, to transport their troops to Ragusan lands to kick their butts. Hmm
Arberore@reddit
Both Ragusa and Venice were Mercantile Republics who lived off of trade.
Creating a defensive naval position to protect is a single city is much easier than attacking it.
Ragusa however could not compare to Venice when it came to military might.
ResidentLong1032@reddit
Exactly. However the part that is missing: any attempt to change Bosnian borders --->> war between Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia
Arberore@reddit
The one who made the post asked to explain it as if I'm explaining it to a 5 year old, so I avoided going too deep.
karlowolf05@reddit
Nothing to explain really.
definitelynotlazy@reddit
karlowitz treaty, search it up
justsayingha@reddit
As a Bosnian I can say regardless of how it got like it is we feel robed. It’s nice that everyone else sees it too do.
Yakusaka@reddit
Ask Montenegro for Sutorina
RevenueOk289@reddit
The Dubrovnik area between Neum and Montenegro was before a independent country.
RevenueOk289@reddit
Bosnia has 25km coustline...
kaubojdzord@reddit
Neum used to be part of Dubrovnik Republic, but to avoid bordering their rivals Venice Dubrovnik gave Neum to Ottoman Empire. These borders stayed once Habsburgs took over Dubrovnik, and Neum remained in Bosnia and Herzegovina. If Dubrovnik didn't want a buffer, BiH wouldn't have coastline at all.
Economic7374@reddit
one thing to note though is that bosnia held the town of herceg novi during habsburg empire, it was up until after ww2 when yugoslav authorities gave the town to montenegro
Puzzleheaded_Pass351@reddit
That’s true, it was bloody unfair. The town even got founded by Bosnian ruler Herceg (Duke) Stjepan. But the Serbs wanted it to be Montenegro’s, because then by proxy it also became theirs.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
The town is still majority Serb inhabited, as it was at the moment of the transfer.
bokeljka@reddit
You mean people from Hercegovina that came during 90s war
New_Accident_4909@reddit
Only around 1,000 refugees living in Montenegro have been able to acquire citizenship since the 1990s because of the country’s rigorous legal requirements.
Delulu
bokeljka@reddit
Well, my mum, who is Serbian, married to my Montenegrin farher, barely got citizenship
Puzzleheaded_Pass351@reddit
Yes, Hercegovinian Serb?
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
Wasn’t Herceg Novi part of Kingdom of Dalmatia during Austria-Hungary?
Economic7374@reddit
You are correct, i mixed up sutorina and herceg novi
point still stands though, neum wasn't the only coastline
Panceltic@reddit
Yes it was, but I think there was a bit of Bosnia stretching out to the sea (Sutorina), just like at Neum. Just about visible here
INSANEredditACCOUNT@reddit
basically near the coast there are these mountain(s) that are like a wall and that's why the border is there
Many-Rooster-7905@reddit
Ottomans, Venice, Dubrovnik/Ragusa and in lesser extent Habsburgs
sjedinjenoStanje@reddit
Dalmatians are Croats.
Even that near-coastal part of "Bosnia" is actually Hercegovina, and predominantly populated by Croats.
Puzzleheaded_Pass351@reddit
See, this is what many think but no. Just because it borders Hercegovina doesn’t mean it actually is Hercegovina. It was once part of Dubrovnik state.
sjedinjenoStanje@reddit
That doesn't make anything I wrote incorrect. Dalmatians are Croats, and Hercegovina is mostly Croatian. Although I didn't address Neum in my comment, the city is 98% Croatian.
Waswat@reddit
Dumb shit like this is why we have wars.
sjedinjenoStanje@reddit
Don't get your panties up in a bunch. If people are ready to go to war by acknowledging the obvious, then they have bigger problems than not recognizing the difference (like you did) between an adjective and a noun.
Waswat@reddit
'Don't get your panties up in a bunch'
??
People went to war because they believed in the propaganda of them being Croats or serbs instead of bosnians as a nationality. People were even ready to go to war for less than that.
Kitchen_Bear3237@reddit
Lmfaooo whatt?????? Dalmatia is from the Illyrian tribe Dalmatae, Slavs didn’t even migrate into the Balkans until the 6th & 7th century??? What are you even talking about Croats are the Dalmatians??? Illyrians are Albanians, we know this because of writings from the Messapiac language and writings and names of the Illyrians cities which had meanings. Such saw Barsylis and Dardania and the words such as “Who” in Messapic was “Kos” and modern Albanian is “Kush” Dardania “land of pears” Darhe in Albanian is Pear and only Albanian there’s so much more I just honestly don’t feel like writings it all because I already know you have been told you are the Dalmatians just like how the Serbs claim to be the Illyrians in the late 19th century and was quickly disproven since Slavs didn’t migrate until the 6&7th centuries. Some will even deny the Slavic Invasion of the Balkans even though it is well documented by historians of their time in the Byzantine Empire. Yes, you MAY have interbreed with Illyrians as Slavs but that was very unlikely do to the langue barrier and the fact the Slavs basically immediately because slaves as soon as they were allowed into the Balkans.
Divljak44@reddit
bla bla bla, nobody knew Albanians existed before Turks
XtrmntVNDmnt@reddit
Croats are just making sure everyone in Bosnia is safe from drowning, it's a friendly act.
edophx@reddit
Actually, the Slavonians took one for the team and are trying to keep Bosnians safe from Dalmatians.
hackeristi@reddit
Croats are known for their generosity. No pun intended.
dejushin@reddit
Hrvat je tat!
Divljak44@reddit
BiH is bigger then it should be
jugojebedugo9@reddit
Stfu
Empty_Success759@reddit
Tito*
we77burgers@reddit
No
Empty_Success759@reddit
Who was president when the maps were drawn?
we77burgers@reddit
You have literally no idea wtf you're talking about sit down.
Empty_Success759@reddit
You'd sell your ass to protect Tito's. Even so, facts don't care about your communist feelings.
The Constitution of 1974
we77burgers@reddit
As someone who comes from a mixed marriage, my father is a serb and mother, a croat, I can't figure out who is more cringe the serb or croat nationalists. Tito isn't responsible for neum being a part of bih. This was done before ww1 during the reign of the Ottoman empire.
Divljak44@reddit
He is, look at SHS borders, and then NDH.
Its was Tito who gifted them land, based on Ottomans, but still Tito drew the current borders
pierreor@reddit
Did you paste an AI response and called it “facts”? Lmfao
Empty_Success759@reddit
Can you prove otherwise?
Getho16@reddit
The Ottomans
DoNotMakeEmpty@reddit
Ah yes the 10th President of the Sublime Porte, Suleiman
Getho16@reddit
Bless his benevolent and democratic rule Mashallah
Michitake@reddit
Ragusa republic doesn’t want to border with Venice who rival of ragusa. Thus, they gave the Neum lands, which have a 20-kilometer coastline on the Adriatic, to the Ottomans who protector of ragusa. This border somehow continued
Divljak44@reddit
Tito
Huge_Cat6264@reddit
Bosnia no country. Much of Bosnia is Croatia and Serbia. Now Croatia look weird.
Waswat@reddit
Bosnia is a country. Bosniaks are a people and its largest population.
justsayingha@reddit
You think that’s bad. Our other neighbor is even worst.
Few-Spirit4105@reddit
Croatia country is along the water, Croatia block Bosnia from water. Bosnia sad.
anon23232319980101@reddit
There's a big ass mountain chain protecting the Croat coast from Bosnia. Which is why Bosnia never conquered any of it.
dinoali@reddit
We are not serbia
Spervox@reddit
Wrong
dinoali@reddit
Very correct
CakiGM@reddit
Bridge
Raviolento@reddit
Maybe they should ask Montenegro…
QuipsterSavant@reddit
I thinks Serbian nationalism and Croatian nationalism hated muslims of Bosnia considering them Ottomans, so encircled this piece of land after the dissolution of Yugoslavia.
TheHabro@reddit
Wait what?
Puzzleheaded_Bus7706@reddit
Ottoman religion, Ottoman culture, sided with Ottomans in wars..
If it feels Ottoman, if it tastes Ottoman..
HeyVeddy@reddit
Venice 🤝 ottoman empire
slanutak@reddit
Wasnt it:
Dubrovnik😡 Venice. Dubrovnik🤝 Ottoman empire.
HumanMan00@reddit
No, both Ottomans and Venetians made a shitload of mony aproximitly by holding trade between east and west.
Venece and Ottomans kept each other alive for a long while.
For the Venetians it was just dofferent management as they did the same with Byzantines except back than the land between them were independent - this way they cut out the middleman. 🤷🏻
Speedymac817@reddit
You can still swim in bosnia theres a seaside town called neum
FUGAZI____@reddit
It’s ok. I’m from Brezovo Polje and can swim over Sava to Croatia 👍 almost same
enilix@reddit
The Ottoman Empire. Also, Bosnia has Neum.
Intelligent-Rip-184@reddit
What does Neum means?
cevapcic123@reddit
Its the town that goes next to the shoreline
ResidentLong1032@reddit
No brains
Michitake@reddit
Neum is city with port in bosnia
arturius2000@reddit
During the Ottoman expansion from east today's Bosnia was taken from Croats and coastal part of Croatia was mostly controlled by Venice. During the history Croatia returned coast while Bosnia and Herzegovina became separate state.
ResidentLong1032@reddit
Croatia: You are part of me. Serbia: You are part of me. Bosnia: No. Croatia and Serbia: War! Bosnia: !? Croatia: OK, no. Serbia: . (gets bombed)
hackeristi@reddit
There is an annual petition to bomb Serbia. Memes run hard on the balkan thread.
Elesdei@reddit
lmfaooooooo
SuperMarioMiner@reddit
We Croats like Bosnia so we gave them some of our sea coast. 🇭🇷❤️🇧🇦
FromStormToHurricane@reddit
Yep, ofc. 🤣🤣💀 Your relationship in Mostar, however, is not that fine.
Divisive_Ass@reddit
What we do here stays here. Nothing to do with Croatia. Learn the fucking difference.
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
The current borders more or less reflects the border between the Habsburgs and the Ottomans with some minor differences. That’s why Bosnia has only 20km of coastline, and even then it’s only part of Bosnia as it was gifted to Ottomans by Dubrovnik due to Venetians as usual being imperialistic assholes.
VastUnderstanding326@reddit
I always wondered when they wil share :"(
Mucklord1453@reddit
Introduce them to Turks if they want to swim
Sensitive_Ad4599@reddit
Influence of Catholic Church and Italian states, people are likely to "become" Croats, Serbs and Bosnias were in the countryside
julius_h_caesar@reddit
This