M-ACE a 3D radar linked to a 30mm Bushmaster firing proximity fused rounds

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UhhmericanJoe@reddit

I wonder if the sensitivity of this tech as well as the desire to protect its location is why we’ve yet to see any video of it in action in Ukraine despite nine (three batteries w/3 trucks per radar) already having being sent to Ukraine. They’d keep it quiet if the results were poor, which is another possibility (not that that’d mean the system was a failure since they’re obviously using Ukraine as a real world laboratory to tweak all this tech).

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Intelligent_Bid_2354@reddit

As someone who's actually operated this system, I can say it's got a lot of issues — definitely not ready for real combat. Feels pretty raw. And with how fast drones are evolving, it's already kinda falling behind

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UhhmericanJoe@reddit

Thank you for this insight. It feels like most of these systems are not yet fully baked or ready for prime time.

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trackerbuddy@reddit (OP)

A battery may be able to provide coverage for a few kilometers at best. 6-8 kilometers of coverage on an 800 kilometer front. I don’t know how much actual combat they see

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DerringerOfficial@reddit

do you have a source about them being sent? I heard it elsewhere but haven't seen any real sources

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DerringerOfficial@reddit

Sandboxx says that these have been used in Ukraine, but I haven't been able to find a source for that

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TestyBoy13@reddit

So uh, what other radar isn’t 3D?

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UhhmericanJoe@reddit

Nothing to add. Just wanted to flood your inbox.

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LefsaMadMuppet@reddit

A range only radar may not be able to determine elevation.

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TestyBoy13@reddit

Oh. I didn’t think of those things. Aren’t like all new radars 3D anyways these days? Doesn’t seem like it’s that’s a big deal.

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DavidBrooker@reddit

No. The overwhelming majority of radars are rotating 2D radars. I would hazard a guess that a large fraction of air defense radars are 3D in some way, but this is a pretty small fraction of the radar market. In fact, the military is already a relatively small fraction of the market (at least in terms of units sold, it holds a much greater fraction of market value).

Imagine all the radars on civilian ships and aircraft. Your rich uncle's 30 foot yacht might well have a radar, for example, but it sure as shit isn't going to be a 3D radar. Even a modern surface combatant might still have multiple 2D radars to supplement their big, expensive AESA arrays, especially for navigation and weather.

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TestyBoy13@reddit

I meant air defense radars. I didn’t think I had to be that specific

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DavidBrooker@reddit

Still, even in air defense, a big chunk of radars are 2D. The big backscatter radars used by many countries and alliances, including NORAD, are all 2D (without steering - due to their size they need to use multiple antennas to cover azimuth). Its also not uncommon to have 2D and 3D radars incorporated into a single system: since 3D radars can be slower, depending on the technology used, you might use a 2D radar to cover a large area and cue a 3D radar to make more detailed measurements in a region of interest.

In some specialized applications, 2D radars can even offer advantages. 2D radars are well suited to seeking out low-level aircraft (those trying to fly under radar coverage), and SHORAD systems may use 2D radars (with modern variants sometimes using this to cue an optical system) due to their low weight, size and cost requirement.

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TestyBoy13@reddit

Targeting radars. I’m talking about air defense targeting/tracking radars.

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DavidBrooker@reddit

It just goes to show that you did have to be that specific. You went from radar, to air defense radars, to air defense targeting radar.

But even so, there are plenty of 2D tracking radars in air defense applications. I actually gave you an example of some application areas, and if you want to get specific, India has developed multiple 2D air defense tracking radars this century.

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TestyBoy13@reddit

I thought it was more obvious what I was talking about because it’s clearly a targeting radar because as you guys explained earlier, it’s not a rotating dish search radar, it looks more like an AESA/PESA type and it, and because the application which is very likely frontline anti-drone where large 2D radars makes zero sense, but sure. Anyway it is interesting that there still are 2D tracking radars out there. At this point, it surely is the norm to go 3D no? I guess my whole point is why is it a big deal to mention it’s a 3D radar if most radars within this category is common already. It just kinda sounds like someone advertising a gun by saying, “This brand new assault rifle comes with a fully automatic firing mode! Isn’t that neat?”

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DavidBrooker@reddit

I don't agree. CUAS systems featuring smart guns utilize a range of search and track systems. IRST and optical systems are not uncommon, including radar search and optical track. The statement of 3D radar is helpful, because it concisely emphasizes the paradigm of the system, with search and track both accomplished by radar. Some similar systems just say 'radar and optical', which leaves vague if these systems are redundant, if one cues the other, or if they are optionally configurable.

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Capn26@reddit

There are still a good deal of 2d naval sets being made for OPVS, corvettes, and missile boats. Yeah. AESA 3d sets get all the press, but scanter, RAN 30x and the like still are being made left and right.

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DavidBrooker@reddit

approximate plane of the ocean

I remember in a physics lecture in undergrad, someone asked the prof: "why is it that we can approximate rolled plate capacitors as flat plates, when they're obviously not flat?"

"Same reason the Earth is flat: go outside and look"

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joha4270@reddit

Most radar's* are so called "2D Radar", which only measure azimuth and distance, but not elevation.

Its usually significantly more complex to also determine elevation. For a while, the most common solution was to have a whole second radar turned on its side that could measure elevation, but not azimuth. This was known as "Height finding radar"

As a rule of thumb, if the spinny thing (that's the technical term) is significantly wider than its tall, then its probably a 2D radar.

*: Most radar's probably sit in cars and measure distance (and sometimes velocity) of things vaguely in front of the car, but knowing neither elevation nor azimuth.

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TestyBoy13@reddit

Correction to my question: “What modern targeting radar isn’t 3D?

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joha4270@reddit

Decent odds North Korea produces one. But yeah, AFAIK modern military stuff is probably all phased arrays which don't have problems determining elevation. But the terms exists now and enough old stuff is in service that it's probably not superfluous to add that it's 3D

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ChornWork2@reddit

2D search radar... just range & bearing. Separate radar system was used to determine elevation after target found by the search radar. Dated for military radars, but default for civilian air traffic control.

3D radar does all three in one unit either by scanning with beam (civilian weather radars) or using multiple beams/arrays (military).

https://www.radartutorial.eu/02.basics/2D%20or%203D%20radar.en.html

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TestyBoy13@reddit

I’ll be honest, I forgot about dedicated search radar, but given this is clearly a targeting/tracking radar for the gun, why would it even need to be mentioned it’s 3D? Like aren’t all modern tracking radars 3D?

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ChornWork2@reddit

Any large dedicated military search radar for AD purposes, for sure. But look at something like gepard spaag being used in ukraine which has a 2D search radar combined with a targeting radar. Presumably any new Nato shorad system would have a 3D system (boxer skyranger, US anti-UAV system for stryker, etc).

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DavidBrooker@reddit

Traditionally, radar only determines range. Direction, in azimuth, is determined by rotating the radar. 3D radars also determine elevation, either by steering the beam vertically in some way (either electronically or mechanically) or by using multiple beams with their own transmitters and receivers.

The ability to determine the three dimensional coordinate of a target is expensive, and so it is usually avoided. Usually it is only employed when it is absolutely necessary to carry out a task, such as in air defense applications.

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OGCarlisle@reddit

most singular radar systems plot location in two axis, radar arrays or systems can triangulate and map in three axis aka elevation too like a cartesian coordinate grid

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Substantial-Tone-576@reddit

2D radar?

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TestyBoy13@reddit

???

What is 2D radar?

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joha4270@reddit

Most radar don't know the elevation of their targets, only azimuth and distance. Such radar is normally referred to as "2D Radar"

The rule of thumb is if whatever "spinny thing" (that's the technical term) on the radar is significantly wider than its tall, its probably a 2D radar.

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Substantial-Tone-576@reddit

Interesting. Thank you for that info

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SlickDillywick@reddit

Make that a GAU-8/A and we can have some real fun. You’d probably need a unimog or something massive to mount it on tho

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ZixfromthaStix@reddit

That shreds tanks. I don’t think that level of armor is in the air? I mean other than the Warthog “Steel Bathtub” itself.

Plus the level of recoil from sustained fire, lol, you’d need hydraulic locks and a heavy HEAVY truck to not flip it over lol

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praharin@reddit

GOD BLESS THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!

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Xenophore@reddit

Will those be available before hunting season this year?

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DeatHTaXx@reddit

This isn't a shitty technical wtf this is fucking sick

I'll take 10, please.

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Stalker_Medic@reddit

The subreddit is just rammed shittytechnicals to differentiate it from technical matters, any technical is welcome

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happycow24@reddit

Are you... slandering Northrop Grumman? The madlads behind the B-21 program which is both under budget and ahead of schedule?

By Allah behave yourself, I will give you a taste of my shoe.

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70m4h4wk@reddit

Now put the whole unit on one hilux and we're cookin'

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Just-Sale-7015@reddit

here you go https://youtu.be/d5e-KIu7t3M?t=88

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Fryphax@reddit

Too many chickens.

They used the best they could get stateside for these testing / promo shots.

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70m4h4wk@reddit

N-G ain't broke. They could drive one up from Mexico.

Stupid Europeans jealous of chickens

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l0ng_time_lurker@reddit

m-Ace- An Anti-drone solution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5e-KIu7t3M&ab_channel=NorthropGrumman

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Just-Sale-7015@reddit

They use Land Cruisers in that ad.

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Squidking1000@reddit

Perfect for home defense as the founding fathers intended.

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Just-Sale-7015@reddit

From that invasion of drones that's been in the news recently /s

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EasyRhino75@reddit

Damn if this thing is even 50% effective Ukraine needs about 200 of them.

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ghosttrainhobo@reddit

Is it Saturday?

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Maeng_Doom@reddit

In what universe is that shitty? Like this is Sci Fi levels of advanced.

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Ok_Sea_6214@reddit

Awesome stuff for countering drones, but I'm guessing it costs a few million.

Which is an issue because it'll be fighting drone swarms that costs as little as a few hundred dollars, and a single hit on either vehicle turns both into sitting ducks.

They'll probably run out of bullets before the enemy runs out of drones, or get swarmed by so many drones they'll break through, and running won't help.

The other issue is the rather, it gives away the location. Even without a data link any drone can hone in on that signal, or they spot it at a safe distance call in a missile or glide bomb strike on such a high profile target.

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trackerbuddy@reddit (OP)

The drones Ukraine is using cost about $500 a piece. Perhaps 30mm rounds are cheaper and they can be mass produced.

If the MACE were used in a layered defense of a Patriot battery or to protect a counter battery radar then the EM signature would be less of a worry

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Salt_peanuts@reddit

Yeah I don’t think this is going to help with masses attacked by drones with hand grenades. It might help with bigger drones that can pack a bigger wallop though?

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R3dSurprise@reddit

These will most likely be most useful on already high profile locations that need fast and mobile air defense. Attach these to an artillery group for example, and you provide cover from deep strike drones and can still pack up and move fast enough to avoid counter battery fire. A artillery group is exposed already the second they fire their rounds.

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