Let's stop criticizing individuals for moving to other countries.
Posted by Evening-Car9649@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 194 comments
People have been making a lot of nasty and mean spirited comments lately criticizing individuals (Americans are on the receiving end mostly) who look to move to other countries or have moved already. Human migration has existed since the beginning of Humanity itself.
To those making comments talking about how individuals or expats are ruining a certain place or making it too expensive for the locals, you need to read more history, and more actual journalism, not just clickbait rage articles. I've seen this comment many times with Mexico City. Rent and prices have gone up in Mexico City, as they have gone up in every single developed nation. If there are too many expats or retirees, that's something that the Mexican government needs to address. Maybe the government in Mexico City should work with developers and landlords to offer more opportunity to Mexican Citizens. Maybe they should offer more construction permits. I don't know. But what I do know is that you cannot blame Americans for rent prices and the cost of living in Mexico city.
I'm American, and the cost of living and rent have increased dramatically over recent years. But do I blame people from India? Or people from California? Or retirees? Or do I blame people from Mexico? I don't. And I could, because all of those groups are here in significant numbers. I blame local, state, and federal governments for the lack of housing, single family zoning, and for income inequality.
But I certainly see the benefits of migrants and retirees. They have money to spend, they start businesses, they contribute vitally to our society in ways that most people can't imagine.
And then there are comments that state the absolute obvious. About cost of living differences being the only reason why expats might have a better or more enjoyable life somewhere else. People understand that. Now please stop jumping down peoples throats for no good reason.
And there are also the comments about expats having 5x (or whatever the actual number is) the buying power of the locals. And so what? That's one of the reasons people are interested in being expats. And sometimes that might be the only reason. And so what?
I find the comments I am talking about to be so rude, because America has been so so inviting of foreigners over the years. We are not perfect, but we have provided at least a decent life to millions and millions over the last 100 years and more.
How many wealthy foreigners come from Latin America, or South East Asia (popular expat locations) and buy property and assets in the USA? Do I complain about that? Do Americans ever complain about that sort of thing?
I wish the tone would be more respectful on this and other subreddits.
zafru_bet@reddit
HOW POORLY THIS THREAD AGED???
NO ONE WANTS TO LIVE IN THE US, OUTSIDE IMPOVERISHED NATIONS.
And the utter outflux of highly educated americans pouring out of the US and yes they *DO POLLUTE EVERY COUNTRY THEY INHABIT* ... it's not the people, it is their society, goals, toxic competitiveness, hateful and a complete lack of kindness and empathy, that is the problem? They are simply not good people - they are *bad* people ... simple as that?
Legitimate_Cost_906@reddit
Some of us who live here don't even want to be here.
I remember being a child and having the "please recycle" agenda shoved down my throat (rather than letting us be kids), but then that same United States does a horrible job of making it easy for those of us (adults) who choose to recycle. They went from shoving "please recycle" down our throats to "global warming" and in 15 to 25 years they will move on to something else. How about we talk as much about the horrible food the United States is producing and causing health problems for it's citizens? I'm not saying we shouldn't care about the environment, but we need to equally care about our health and what we are consuming, if not more.
The United States is beyond f(u)cked up
AutumnalLavender@reddit
I’m a Spaniard from the poorest community in the country (Canary Islands) looking to move to Ireland. I’m also afroamazigh. I fear I will be pointed at for moving there looking for a better life for being an immigrant. I will obviously be working for an Irish company and rent a house, not an AirBNB, and I 100% intend to integrate and shop as much in Irish places as I can afford. I also fear for the rampant racism against us northern africans and blacks. Can someone from Ireland tell me if my move is problematic? Will i be ostracized? I know Spaniards (the Iberic ones) have a bad reputation there.
Significant_Bit_8106@reddit
People critical do those who chose to travel are usually very ignorant and close minded!
GhanaGirlUK99@reddit
I would say that Americans on this and other forums have oftentimes questioned my move to the USA
pissboots@reddit
Well yeah, especially with the incoming administration, it seems insane to want to move to the US.
GhanaGirlUK99@reddit
lol. What a silly statement.
You know nothing about me.
My life improved by moving to the United States.
Where do you live?
pissboots@reddit
I'm glad to hear that moving to the US has improved your life! ❤️ I was just saying for many of us from the US, the choice to move there now seems odd because of all the propositions of the incoming administration (ie. invading Panama, annexing Canada, abolishing the department of Education, rolling back vaccine mandates, withdrawing from NATO.)
I moved from the US to France, and my life has improved greatly too. I'm glad we're both some place that makes us happy!
South-Beautiful-5135@reddit
The issue are not “people who travel”, but people who move to areas where they make in a week what locals make in a year.
MeanLet4962@reddit
“America has been so inviting to foreigners over the years”. Are you serious? America has the second most bureaucratic and unfriendly immigration system after Irak.
Yes, there are a lot of immigrants here but don’t you dare saying America has been inviting, unlike Canada, Australia, Switzerland, Britain and more, who value talent way more than America, and provide paths for citizenship, which America doesn’t. The legal system is so broken and outdated that it only encourages more illegal immigration.
So please, don’t flaunt that “it has been so inviting”. It has been extremely selective and not really towards the categories that can bring a lot of value to the country. I’m glad other countries make it difficult in return. Fair is fair.
Top-Half7224@reddit
Not to mention that time the US put children in cages....
Berliner1220@reddit
America gives green card holders a path to citizenship after 5 years. Around 1 million people receive a GC and 1 million people are naturalized every year. It’s not a perfect system, but we are definitely bringing in talented immigrants and giving them a path to stay. That’s what the whole H1B fiasco is about.
MeanLet4962@reddit
You failed to mention the fact that you need a green card to be able to naturalize. Do you even know how many legal immigrants can’t even get a green card? “Brining in talented immigrants and giving them a path to stay” is an overstatement!
Berliner1220@reddit
I never said every single immigrant in the US is going to get citizenship or a GC, just that many people do and for those with a GC, there is a path forward. The US has way too many people trying to get in/get a visa to allow that.
MeanLet4962@reddit
Which makes my point valid. People coming on talent visas often struggle with that. This is a hyper selective system. The UK sets a better example. So do other countries. And likewise, a lot of people are trying to get into those countries.
Berliner1220@reddit
I guess it depends then what you think the point of immigration is. The US is obviously not a charity and doesn’t need to accept every person who wants to try to come there. Some may never make it. Same as many other countries.
MeanLet4962@reddit
No one says the US a charity. Your making that point shows how dense you are. Unless you’re just trying to deflect, which is as pathetic.
Berliner1220@reddit
Why are you so triggered and butthurt? Lmao. Someone needs to touch grass.
MeanLet4962@reddit
I also noticed this is not your first attempt to deflect. I see a pattern here with this old “why are you so triggered?”. Which is the very basic comeback a not so smart individual comes up with when they run out of arguments.
Here’s some deflection for you as well: no wonder why your ex dumped you lol. You most probably asked for it and he did the right thing. You’re awfully bitter, not the sharpest tool in the shed, and on top of that: very condescending. A terrible combination of flaws, if you ask me.
Now go back to your sad life in the depressing Berlin lol!
Berliner1220@reddit
You are so sad lmao
MeanLet4962@reddit
For having crossed paths with you? You bet. Nice try projecting your frustration tho! 😏
ataraxia_555@reddit
“On average, around 1 million legal immigrants have been admitted to the United States annually over the last decade. This number can fluctuate based on policy changes and other factors. However, over the past five years, over five million people have legally immigrated to the United States.”
Source-US Dept. of Homeland Security and US Census Bureau
MeanLet4962@reddit
Can you read a text, mate? How many of these can naturalize? Do you know the different categories of immigrants out there?
ataraxia_555@reddit
The top five receiving nations for legal immigrants annually are: the United States, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Russia, and the United Kingdom.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
It's obvious you don't know much about America at all.
MeanLet4962@reddit
That’s all you have to say? No data to challenge what I provided in my comment? Then I guess it is obvious you have no clue about the immigration system yourself. I hope you don’t get to immigrate to Europe. Let the people with a brain do that.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
I don't necessarily blame nor criticize Americans for wanting to move abroad, and in this case, to Mexico City. As OP mentioned, if there are actual problems stemming from it, the Mexican government can and should put guardrails around it. We all know they won't, but that's beside the point.
But, I do get annoyed when Americans move somewhere and recreate the same problems that they complained about in the first place and/or refuse to assimilate to an extent that's meaningful for locals. I was in Mexico City in September and I heard more English than Spanish in some of the central neighborhoods. Waiters now give preference to foreigners due to presumed tipping practices, upon which they will sometimes complain if they don't get at least 20% tip (happened to a local friend last month). And some taquerias are also replacing their spicy sauces with milder ones that suit the palate of foreigners without any regard for locals.
Do I think that we are the problem for inflation around the world a la Mexico City, Lisbon, etc.? Absolutely not. I live in Kraków and we're dealing with the inflation issue without the influx of wealthy foreigners moving here.
However, do I think we can be more conscious when moving somewhere, especially when the power/spending dynamics are in the favor of the privileged foreigner? Absolutely.
Top-Half7224@reddit
I live in Lisbon and its amazing how when a couple of Americans walk into a restaurant they are louder than anyone else in the room, then leave a big "tip" (which is frowned upon by locals) to show how generous and great they are, then walk out smugly oblivious to the scene they just caused.
Spicy-Cheesecake7340@reddit
You realize that this is the flip of the complaint that we hear from old people in Florida, California and Arizona complaining about people speaking Spanish in their neighborhoods, right? We would call them out as racist and xenophobic.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
Spanish. Shocking, I know.
Incorrect. One is a form of racism. The other is a form of exploitation of power dynamics. Let's not muddy the water between the two as they are not the same at all.
Spicy-Cheesecake7340@reddit
Did you speak Spanish your first time in Mexico? If you traveled with someone did you speak Spanish to them or did you (ugh) speak English on the streets of Mexico?
I'm 100% on board that people should learn the language of the place they live and visit (and my horrible attempts at Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, Turkish are evidence of that), but it's also reasonable to flip the situation and ask whether we'd criticize visitors to the US in the same way.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
I believe you might be conflating traveling somewhere with living somewhere. I don't expect people to know beyond the basics of the native language ("hello", "thank you", "excuse me", etc.) when traveling somewhere. However, in our particular scenario, Americans living in Mexico should do so due to the aforementioned reasons. If in the same conversation that I hear someone say "I got an affordable apartment with a view of Chapultepec a few months ago" but can't even manage to pull any Spanish together when engaging with employees of a restaurant, that's a problem for me. And that happened more times than I expected when I last visited.
Again, not a comparable scenario with those visiting the US because I'm not talking about tourists at all, nor am I targeting a large portion of immigrants who move to the US due to a stark differences in privileges and dynamics at play.
Spicy-Cheesecake7340@reddit
Sounds to me like a real stretch, you're just itching to criticize when you really don't know their story, how long they've been in Mexico, what their situation is, etc.
As someone who has taught ESL classes (but is lousy at languages myself) I appreciate how difficult it is for people who are working, raising a family, getting used to a new culture AND learning a new language.
Maybe we just point out the advantages of learning the local language (no matter where you live), help them when we can, and leave it at that?
Or I guess we could do a full assessment of their privilege, socio-economic status, time in country, etc to decide how much to judge.
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
While you may be thinking that I'm itching to criticize, I think you're weaponizing incompetency to protect yourself. But you do you, buddy.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Can you give me an example of how Americans have moved somewhere and recreate or create problems? Everything you said is up to locals. If they change their sauces, whose fault is that? I mean can you blame Americans for that? If a waiter gives preference to foreigners (something I have noticed in many countries), that's not the fault of the foreigners. The waiter and restaurants want the money. And that's where it is.
Now, as far as assimilation goes, I agree. People should make an effort to join the local culture. But you have to understand that some people just don't want to, in any country. How many Mexicans in the US want to eat at taquerias ALL THE TIME? Quite a few, I assume, cause I work with some of them.....
And look, I'm grateful that foreigners want their own food. I love Indian food, and Mexican food.
I really don't understand your last point? What can an individual do to change anything? And whats wrong with having a huge disparity in spending power? If you spend, you put more money back in the local economy.
I mean, look, we all the world can be a really messed up place. And I have sympathy and empathy for others but some of the things you are saying people should do, make no sense.
HVP2019@reddit
Few things:
Do you have data that it is Americans who are mostly on the receiving end of such criticism?
It shouldn’t matter who is on receiving end, but the fact you, an American formed this biased belief that Americans as immigrants are particularly mistreated is very telling.
I agree that in modern times immigrants have easier time integrating in US, compared to integrating in many other countries. I disagree that when in comes to immigration it is American immigrant who are the most mistreated.
I am Naturalized American so I can compare how immigrants of different backgrounds are treated in US and in Europe, where I am from originally. I have immigrant friends from other parts of the world and they agree that Americans immigrants tend to be treated better than many other immigrants.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
I have no data but I very strongly think I am correct.
This post was about online comments and about civility.
Top-Half7224@reddit
This kind of main character syndrome is why Americans don't assimilate well as expats/immigrants.
HVP2019@reddit
Try making comment on Canadian housing sub as Indian immigrant. Or try living in Germany as Turkey or Marocan immigrant
ataraxia_555@reddit
It is not a “race to the bottom”, gents. Negativity towards those move to other nations (legally) is unwarranted regardless.
HVP2019@reddit
I DID say in the very beginning: it shouldn’t matter who is on reviving end.
There was no reason to state that Americans are uniquely disadvantaged, especially if they aren’t even close to being at the bottom of the list of the most disadvantaged immigrants.
ataraxia_555@reddit
Alright, so it’s settled.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
I understand what you are saying but I am saying that what I have seen is different, on this and other subreddits.
HVP2019@reddit
I am surprised that as someone who is frequent on this sub you did not notice very often mentioned by many observation:
Black American immigrant will be treated better than Black African immigrant. This is well known but telling little fact about difference in treatment immigrates from different countries get.
CmanHerrintan@reddit
Mexico city is too populous to accurately census 😆. You would have to have multiple millions of expats all at once to change its economy.
drumjoy@reddit
Why can’t we all just get together and collectively, and rightfully, blame Airbnb/short term vacation rentals? Most of the jumps in rents and housing around the world are either related to short term rentals or corporations buying real estate. If we could get our governments to get rid of those two things it would do a ton. And, yes, if you’re one of the people buying property to flip and make extra income on short term rentals, you’re part of the problem.
spnchipmunk@reddit
I understand where you're coming from, I do, and on some points I agree with you. But there is a lot of nuance to take into account.
Yes, immigration and migration have always been a part of the human experience. That said, locals have a right to complain about the influx of immigrants into their country and communities. Melding the two is never easy, and it requires compromise on both sides - which rarely happens quickly.
Here, I will check you. I've lived it. It's not clickbait articles or failing to read "actual journalism" (whatever that means). This is a real and destructive problem in our communities.
I have seen locals driven from desirable, historic neighborhoods simply because foreigners (and foreign companies) come in with disposable income that a local could rarely achieve in their lifetime, and it needs to stop. Or, worse, foreigners arrive and build "colonias" behind walls, security guards, and barbed wires in our cities so that they technically live there but are not actually a part of local or cultural life. It's separation and segregation, and it's gross.
If you want to be a part of a country or community, integrate. Learn the language, customs, and beliefs of where you are enough to be able to stand on your own two feet without needing your expat-ness catered to and accommodated so you feel like you're living in your home country while abroad. (This is not directed at you specifically, just in general)
One word: corruption. It's a nice thought. Practical, but simplistic. It doesn't work in the face of decades' worth of corruption, greed, and generational poverty.
I would suggest researching the history of NA and LATAM counties and the direct impact the USA and it's foreign policy (as well as other countries) has had on their G&D before suggesting the people of those countries should "just do ____" to fix it.
You may not, but many Americans do. Look at their incoming POTUS and his promise to expel large numbers of immigrant populations. That tells you everything you need to know about the current conversation in the US.
Some of us want the people living in our country and communities to care about our language, history, culture, and beliefs. We want you to respect where you live and see us as equals, not just some cheap place for you to make your life easier.
To some extent, yes. But America has also been historically awful to its immigrant communities. They've never been given a fair or equal opportunity without having to prove themselves. The only difference is that the US doesn't ignore it the way other countries do.
I don't know you, so I can't speak for you, but Americans? Yes. 1000%. This may be localized, but the discourse around Ghost Homes was a thing in CA.
Tl,dr: It's complicated, but civility is always a good idea.
Thecrazypacifist@reddit
You can't compare Mexicans in America to Americans in Mexico! How many illegal migrants from America go to Mexico? How many work in the drug industry? How come a wealthy tourist who stays for a couple of more years comparable to someone who just crosses the border and starts working illegally? Not supporting Trump or saying that all Mexicans work for the cartels, but for fucks sake don't compare the too!
spnchipmunk@reddit
Let's get a few things clear:
Not all immigrants are "illegal" - in the US or otherwise.
Drug trade, creation, trafficking, and/or use is not specific to Immigrants or their communities. Wtf.
When did I say this was Mexican/American specific? This is an issue everywhere. NA and LATAM were just the references used by OP.
It's two, not "too." Two = a numeral (2). Too = as well. Just fyi.
Expats migrating to developing countries are rarely "wealthy." They're usually middle class in their home countries looking to live a better economic life in a less developed country. The wealthy don't move unless it's for taxes or war.
Again, not all immigrants are illegal.
Take that racist rhetoric and go touch some grass, babe. You say you don't support Trump, yet it certainly sounds like you do. Maybe you should work on that.
Thecrazypacifist@reddit
Well yes not all of them are illegal, but the fact that we even to mention this is insane. Like imagine I tell you about Indians in America, or Russians in America, or even Brazilians in America, would anyone even think about illegal immigrants? So do the fact that we first think of illegal immigrants when it comes to Mexicans, it shows that there is big problem. Also why are you obsessed with my words, you know what I mean when I wealthy, I mean considerably wealthier than the average local.
Also saying that something exists everywhere doesn't literally mean anything. Do women suffer from gender inequality in everywhere country? Yes, they do. Now does that mean that you can compare Sweden to Afghanistan? And If someone complains about rape culture and honor killings in Afghan communities in Sweden, are you going to tell that it it's not specific to Afghan communities and exists in Swedish ones too? Seriously?
Most Americans living in Mexico are earning good money, paying taxes, respect local laws and although they might not speak Spanish and undrestand the culture, they rarely form gangs, or engage in the drug industry. Now am I saying that all Mexicans in America all working for a cartel? No! Am I saying that the percentage of Mexican immigrants working in drug industry, commuting crimes, working illegally and not paying taxes, etc. are astronomically higher compared to American immigrants of Mexico, yes I am!
If every 1 in a 1000 American immigrant in Mexico has one of the problems above, the number is likely 20 times higher for Mexicans in America! (Obviously 20x was an example, it was a guess, but you get the point)
spnchipmunk@reddit
You first think of illegal immigrants when it comes to Mexicans.
Words have power.
That "good money" is usually an American salary, which only adds to gentrification and furthers local socio-economic disparities.
The rest of your argument was hyperbolic and rooted in straw man fallacies, thus ignored. Have the day you deserve.
PRforThey@reddit
It's less complicated than you think.
What OP is saying, is place blame in the right spot and where change can actually be achieved.
Do you blame the tourist for coming to a touristy spot, or do you blame the companies setting up hotels, tour operations bringing in the tourists, and the governments encouraging it?
Do you blame a tourist for renting an apartment above market rates, or do you blame the landlord for charging more than locals can afford and the government zoning limiting the options available to locals?
demostenes_arm@reddit
There was a similar debate on Reddit shortly ago on sexpats / passport bros in the Philippines. Do we blame them for taking advantage of women with starving families, or do we blame the government of the Philippines for not addressing poverty and inequality, while keeping the borders open to this type of tourist?
From your rationale of “blaming only the spot where change can actually be achieved”, then yeah, the individuals have zero blame because a single individual’s decision is a drop in the ocean that won’t change anything on a systemic level.
But while I also try to not be judgemental of other people, I disagree that’s the only way to see things.
Thecrazypacifist@reddit
The government can't just address poverty, it takes years to build that! Western countries have been trying for centuries to get this wealthy, it took a countless civil wars and two world wars too get there (and some colonialism too) It's deeply rooted in their institutions and culture, that's something a country like the Philippines or Mexico doesn't have, it's not something you adress, it's something you build overtime! So even if Nelson Mandella and Winston Churchill were to run the Philippines it would still be poorer than the US forever.
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
Ultimately, the locals are really the ones to blame here, because the government is their own creation and under their direct control. If the local government has bad policies that make the cost of living unaffordable to the locals, then the locals should choose better leaders. Outsiders are usually not in control of whoever runs a local government, and certainly not wealthy expats or tourists.
spnchipmunk@reddit
There is a difference between a "tourist" and an "expat." We're discussing expats.
But to answer your question: I blame every part of the system that capitalizes off the systemic and prolific exploitation and displacement of local communities - especially in developing or occupied countries.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
You didn't say where you are from, but I assume Latin America based on colonias. But I can assure you that walls, security guards, and barbed wires dont have anything necessarily to do with foreigners in Latin America.
But I strongly agree that people should try to be a part of local culture and local life. I could not agree more. And I never got along with people who only want expat friends.
"If you want to be a part of a country or community, integrate. Learn the language, customs, and beliefs of where you are enough to be able to stand on your own two feet without needing your expat-ness catered to and accommodated so you feel like you're living in your home country while abroad. (This is not directed at you specifically, just in general)"
I agree with you. But I will say that its not always that easy to learn the language of the place you move to. A lot of people are not and didn't grow up as culturally aware so learning a new language can be hard. But they need to at least try.
And I will say, there are plenty of people that move to the USA and seclude themselves in their own community. Have you heard of Chinatown? Or Koreatown? I mean, those places exist for a reason. Because people from all walks of life and all cultures engage in those behaviors that you mentioned.
"One word: corruption. It's a nice thought. Practical, but simplistic. It doesn't work in the face of decades' worth of corruption, greed, and generational poverty.
I would suggest researching the history of NA and LATAM counties and the direct impact the USA and it's foreign policy (as well as other countries) has had on their G&D before suggesting the people of those countries should "just do ____" to fix it."
You can't blame expats for the political problems in a country they happen to visit. I understand the corruption aspect, and its horrible, but its got nothing to do with expats. And I know more history than most about Latin America. Look, you can't blame expats for these things.
gurlwhosoldtheworld@reddit
Chinatowns came to be because it was the only zone that was cheap enough for asian immigrants to move into..... A far cry from extremely overpriced condos & neighborhoods that 90% of expats move into....
FartTootman@reddit
As an American, I'm embarrassed by the downright comical degree of pompous ignorance you're showing in this whole thread.
gurlwhosoldtheworld@reddit
Agreed with everything you said.
Canada has had a huge problem with Indian immigration and we put pressure on our gvt to fix things. HOWEVER the Indians don't realise the issues they are immigrating into.
Americans going to third world countries.....they fully know they are contributing to a problem. And a lot don't even care. I've met many expats in LATAM that are being overcharged for housing, for food, for services, etc and they pay the higher prices anyways!! Then say "well it's still cheap for me so who cares"... The locals care!!! Ugh. Grinds my gears.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
"You may not, but many Americans do. Look at their incoming POTUS and his promise to expel large numbers of immigrant populations. That tells you everything you need to know about the current conversation in the US."
Many Americans do (though probably way less than you think). I am American and follow many American politics very closely. On this, you have no idea what you are talking about. And I hate to sound harsh, but its true. The situation surrounding immigration is extremely complex, with lots of misinformation going around.
"Some of us want the people living in our country and communities to care about our language, history, culture, and beliefs. We want you to respect where you live and see us as equals, not just some cheap place for you to make your life easier."
I hear you. And I am not calling for people to be seen as less than because they are from a poorer country. I think people need to look at each other as equals. I will tell you though, most Americans who travel overseas and most expats in general are going to be very forward thinking people (at least compared to their compatriots). But I will say, people immigrate all the time to make their lives easier and for that reason alone too. How many have come to the USA for that reason? And there is nothing wrong with that.
"To some extent, yes. But America has also been historically awful to its immigrant communities. They've never been given a fair or equal opportunity without having to prove themselves. The only difference is that the US doesn't ignore it the way other countries do."
This is way more complicated than you are making it out to be. I will tell you factually, that the United States and Western Europe are the "nicest" countries when it comes to immigration. I mean, we can have a long long conversation about this, but not here.
I appreciate your comment and I hope you appreciate mine.
Good Luck.
spnchipmunk@reddit
Dude. I currently live in the United States and follow domestic and foreign policy closely. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
FartTootman@reddit
This little snippet from OP tells me virtually everything I need to know about their politics. That, and the fact that they refer to Western Europe as a "country".
South-Beautiful-5135@reddit
Europe is not a country. And in general you are very wrong on so many levels. You just want to justify your own behavior.
I assume you live in Mexico? Do you speak Spanish? Have you at least tried? Or are you not sufficiently “culturally aware” (whatever that means)?
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Sure, locals have a right to complain about an influx of immigration. I could do that right now. The metro area where I live is chock full of immigrants. But I don't, because it wouldn't make any sense. If I wanted to complain, it would be about my own government.
"I have seen locals driven from desirable, historic neighborhoods simply because foreigners (and foreign companies) come in with disposable income that a local could rarely achieve in their lifetime, and it needs to stop."
Why does it need to stop? What law of the world says the historic neighborhoods should not allow foreigners to live there? Should the areas surrounding Central Park be closed to foreigners? How about the City of London?
I actually agree that it would be really nice and desirable to allow locals to live in historic areas. So maybe governments could buy buildings in these areas and give them to locals, or find a way to subsidize locals who live in these areas. But how would you even stop something like that? If locals want to live in those areas, they should buy property there or communities should get together and come up with a solution.
I was in Rethimno Crete, Greece recently and the hold and historic town did have locals living there. I found that really nice.
"Or, worse, foreigners arrive and build "colonias" behind walls, security guards, and barbed wires in our cities so that they technically live there but are not actually a part of local or cultural life. It's separation and segregation, and it's gross."
South-Beautiful-5135@reddit
You don’t get the point at all, do you?
im-here-for-tacos@reddit
OP would rather weaponize their own incompetency so that they don't feel the need to hold themselves accountable of their actions when moving abroad.
Majestic_Resolution7@reddit
100%
CicadaPuzzleheaded33@reddit
Too many people blame individuals for trying to better their lives, then they blame corporations or governments for actually hurting their lives
Kph100@reddit
Says oligarch lover. How dumb.
Gold-Temporary-3560@reddit
Clacade, do you know anyone who is 100% totally self reliant?? This is not the 1800s. We as Americans have to depend on the products and services of other people. If the Corporations force smaller companies out of business "think wall mart from 1980s -2000s then Amazon, then there is no choice but to leave!
CicadaPuzzleheaded33@reddit
What? I know that. I’m saying we shouldn’t blame people for their choices as much as we should blame corporations and governments. What point are you trying to make here
Gold-Temporary-3560@reddit
Watch all of Dr Robert Riche vidos. former labor secretary. The middle class wages are stagnant because that is built by design by congress. Clinton Approved WTO and in 2001, china was included and like what the late Ross Perot said before NAFTA "listen to that great sucking sound as manufacturing leaves this country" he was right in both policies. Between 2001-2016, 56,000 factories shut down and outsource factory job to china. The rest of the work was automated leaving millions of works in poverty. In the early 50s 60 and 70s a factory job WAS a living wage! Reganomics was the start of the fall of the middle class.
CicadaPuzzleheaded33@reddit
You’re just preaching to the choir fam. Maybe go explain this stuff to someone who disagrees with you lol
finance_girl6@reddit
There have been instances where I want to pose a question on this sub as an American but I just stop myself because I have seen the responses to other Americans.
Yet-Another-Persona@reddit
This is a known human unconscious bias called self-serving bias. We attribute our own successes to ourselves and our failures to external factors.
Kph100@reddit
Well maybe Americans are due what's coming.
Thecrazypacifist@reddit
The sheer lack of knowledge about economics and politics are sad in this sub.
Thecrazypacifist@reddit
Expats do increase house prices, that's the reality, just compare the migration hostile Denmark to migration friendly Australia. However it's also true that migration has lots of benefits, just look at the migration friendly America and migration hostile Japan! The truth is that migration comes with it's ups and downs, but just like locals want what's best for them (i.e cheap housing) migrants wants what is best for them too. For most countries wealthy well educated migrants (often called expats) are a net positive, if the respect local norms and laws which Americans mostly do. Now If you are illegal or low skilled immigration that's another story.
CravingMind98@reddit
The individuals from purest capitalist countries such as yours are part of the problem and there's nothing you can do about it.
Also, you compared two different things. One thing is poor talented people coming to the US and rich Americans throwing their money at everywhere because it's too expensive in the US, thereby rising prices.
You say it's the government to blame. Then why do you choose the government that allowed private companies to own almost 50% of real estate and turn essential need for a house into a business model?
Situation in your country is the main reason behind mass American immigration to poorer countries and the subsequent price increase in there.
Hungry-Celery3177@reddit
Most Americans can’t accept the fact that they have been fed lies their entire life that the USA is the greatest country on earth. And when you bring up leaving they feel betrayed by you.
It’s a hard pill to swallow when you wake up one day and realize it’s all a scam.
lizziecapo@reddit
I blame billionaires because they are the ones who are actually to blame
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
I don't. Billionaires deserve their fair share of blame for many things, but the cost of housing isn't really their fault. They aren't the ones controlling local governments, demanding that no new construction be done in their neighborhood because they want to preserve the "character". The housing problem is caused by millions of American middle-class homeowners called NIMBYs who want to increase their property value at all costs. Billionaires aren't really the issue here, it's all the Boomers who own real estate and have time to talk to their local government (or get elected to it) and prevent useful changes that would increase the housing supply.
PineTreeTops@reddit
Actually the billionaires are a large part of the problem.
https://ips-dc.org/release-billionaire-blowback-on-housing/
You can blame the government for not keeping them in check, but the reality is they bought the government.
I'm looking forward to leaving the US soon, but I won't be a rich expat. The only reason I have (half a house) is because I gave up my career to take care of my Dad. Otherwise, he would have went into the senior living grift, and my brother and I would have ended up with nothing. I want to leave because I can't afford to live here anymore. My family goes back to Dutch and Lithuanians who immigrated here pre-1900's for a better life. Now I want to leave for a better life.
Dividing everyone scraping by along the lines of politics, religion, and national identity, and having us at each other's throats is exactly what they want.
ZebraOtoko42@reddit
The billionaires have bought the governmnent at the highest levels, mainly the federal level, but the idea that billionaires have run around to all the municipalities across America and bought them out somehow too is absurd.
Housing policy is not primarily a product of federal policy in the US; it's a product mostly of local government policy, with some influence from state governments. Who controls the local governments? Local, politically-connected politicians you've never heard of outside of a few huge cities like NYC, and they're working for the wealthier people in those towns, people who own property, which isn't just a few billionaires, it's tons of homeowners.
Like it or not, regular everyday Americans (the ones who own homes and oppose new development or changes to regulations, so probably not your typical Gen-Zer) are the biggest enemy here. People on the left like to paint "the rich" as the source of all their problems, just like people on the right like to paint immigrants and "liberals" as the source of theirs, but the reality is that almost everyone bears some blame for everything, but for housing specifically, it's the people in local government who ultimately control this in America.
Discount_gentleman@reddit
"Please be as nice and open-minded as Americans over the last 100 years" is...quite a take.
pissboots@reddit
I think they meant, "before a hundred years ago", because the US had open borders before 1924.
brass427427@reddit
Open-minded to use LSD, perhaps. I can count the number of open-minded Americans I've met on one hand.
Cojemos@reddit
Think the correct term is "immigrants." Perhaps this is the issue. Call it what it is.
Snoo6596@reddit
Your speech about holding politicians accountable is pure fantasy. Gentrification in MX is part of the socioeconomic crisis going on there. If you knew Mexican politics, you would know that it’d be a lost cause to appeal to them.
Maybe the locals speaking up about it is their way of addressing the issue and it also can be an attempt to raise awareness about it. Maybe it’s their way of finding some sort of communal power that is supposed to be inherently theirs by citizenry.
But apparently you have something against the locals speaking up for their rights.
myceliogenes@reddit
sorry but exploitation of foreign labor and lack of ability to live localized should not be encouraged
EnvironmentalCard909@reddit
I never ask for advice on moving to other countries online where non-Americans are likely to respond because I will almost certainly receive snotty if not intentionally incorrect answers. I want to integrate somewhere else. I hate living in the US. I don't want to Americanize your culture, and I don't feel entitled to be there. I want to follow the rules, contribute to your country's economy, and adopt its way of life. I'm a real person, not a caricature of an American.
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
What are you on about
Sir_Osis_of_Thuliver@reddit
This is the infuriatingly lazy, unlearned, and aggrieved attitude of so many of my fellow Americans and a big reason why I’m glad to not live there anymore. This entire whiny entitled diatribe lacks any awareness of historical or contemporary context, and is all too common “thinking” there.
“And so what? And so what?”
You are just a big salty baby, dude. Some Mexicans want you to stay away instead of buying up the houses, AND SO WHAT?
This post is as stupid as my former friend who started posting white power memes in a group chat, and his baby-brained reasoning was, “well there’s black pride, Latino pride, why can’t I be proud to be white?” You just don’t get the power dynamics at play, which is proven by your complete lack of understanding of what it’s like to be like the majority of immigrants from Vietnam or Mexico or Honduras, or anywhere in the global south. They’re not buying the assets and properties. You can’t even be honest in your argument. You could have just left it at the whining about Mexico City not wanting you, but you had to make it about how amazing you are for not hating immigrants, even though you totally could if you weren’t so awesome.
I’m sorry, but your comment about how magnanimous you are for not complaining about people moving to the USA from SEA or LATAM (even though you think you could) so they shouldn’t complain about Americans moving to their country is mind-bogglingly stupid. I’m sorry but it is and you need to hear it.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, from the USA is moving to Mexico City or Bangkok to open up a small grocery store and to live above it with their entire family. Or picking fruit. Or working slaughterhouses. Day-laboring in front of Home Depot. You said it yourself, Americans have the LUXURY to up and move to a country to take advantage of their relatively cheap cost of living. They also don’t pay local TAXES, which means all this money you are saying they contribute to the country actually only goes into the hands of rich people, it does absolutely nothing for the average citizen. No roads are being paved in CDMX because Clint and Winona want to run their SEO business remote. Take it up with the govt? More baby-brained, lacking any history logic. And on the other hand, immigrants in the USA often contribute a lot of their wages to taxes and will not get to use any public entitlement like SS or Medicare.
The USA has been inviting to foreigners? Like you are, here? Is this post actually a troll? Just a disgusting worldview, in general. Get over your American exceptionalism syndrome.
SeanBourne@reddit
The vast majority of people are no smarter than an elementary school age child when it comes to economic or financial issues. That’s why incredibly inane ‘memes’ and beliefs spread with little to no basis in factual reality. What you’re referring to is just one symptom of that.
Bright_Beat_5981@reddit
One interesting example is the pay taxes-crowd.
They don't seem to understand that the exact same principals that applies to a tourist applies to an expat staying 6 months in a place, economically speaking.
SeanBourne@reddit
I think you are confusing digital nomads with expats. Expats are from Country A, but working in Country B for a division of a company that might be HQ’ed elsewhere, but the business is legally in Country B (so paying taxes there).
DN’s often have some funky arrangements, so might fall under the category you mention.
i-love-freesias@reddit
Mean people gonna be mean. Whiners gonna whine.
Bitter_Initiative_77@reddit
It's a bit silly to bury you heard in the sand and pretend that your actions don't have consequences. Issues such as gentrification are largely structural, but it's worthwhile to ask if you, as an individual, are hurting or helping the situation. That's part of being a responsible citizen of the world. In any case, I think people are less frustrated about Americans moving to these places and more frustrated by the segment of American society taht treats these places as playgrounds (e.g., refuse to learn the local language, earn and spend wildly in USD without second thought, live in immigrant bubbles).
The difference is that immigrants to the US are moving from a "poor" country to a "rich" country. That's a completely different story than doing the reverse. Rupees don't go that far in the US, but USD goes quite far in India. Apples and oranges. Obviously there are wealthy people who immigrate to the US (nothing is black and white), but you catch my drift. The proportions just aren't the same in comparison.
The "so what" is that it has consequences and you should give a shit about the locals. That isn't to say that you should't move at all, but rather that you should move responsibly. Think about your impact, how you can best integrate, etc.
Oof. I've got something to tell you about how the US treats foreigners lol. My quip aside, the US has fashioned itself into a world super power, sometimes at the expense of other countries. It made its bed and has to lie in it now. The whole "well we accept immigrants so you have to" argument doesn't really work.
Bright_Beat_5981@reddit
Why would you rather have poor than rich immigrants? Rich immiggrants grow the economy with their spending and do less crime.
Bitter_Initiative_77@reddit
I'm not engaging in that nonsense debate with you.
I was specifically responding to the claim about how immigrants impact cost of living.
Bright_Beat_5981@reddit
Fair enough.
tayloraitsaid@reddit
Thank you , I posted something yesterday about my struggles with moving to the US and Americans were attacking me lol🥲
Absentrando@reddit
Welcome to Reddit lol. Much of Reddit is pretty strongly anti American so expect that if you speak favorably of the country. Good luck with your immigration
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Good luck on your journey. Where are you from?
And sorry about the people attacking you, ignorance knows no borders.
tayloraitsaid@reddit
Im from Belgium! Thank you xx
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Why do you want to move to the US?
tayloraitsaid@reddit
Many many reasons, it’s always been a little bit of a dream. I understand it’s gonna be a long difficult process but I’m ready haha :)
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
I really wish you well. Don't let these online people get you down. There are many many negative people online. They come to vent frustration instead of figuring their own lives out.
tayloraitsaid@reddit
Thaaanks yea it’s really discouraging sometimes but I’ll just block the noise out lol
ThisAdvertising8976@reddit
Why the downvotes? Is it rude to ask why someone wants to move to America now?
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Lots of angry teenagers on here, I guess.
Kosmopolite@reddit
I agree with your comment about civility, but then you lost me with "it's been happening throughout history so it's fine." Speaking as a Brit, that argument just doesn't stand up.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
That's not what I said. You have created a quote out of thin air.
Kosmopolite@reddit
Perhaps I misunderstood then. Why did you bring historical migration into a discussion the negative effects gentrification as a result of foreign money has on the local population?
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
I don't know whether or not you misunderstood, but you have certainly misquoted me and not fixed it.
Kosmopolite@reddit
I Paraphrased what I understood in order to respond. I don't think you know what a quote is. Other than that, you're very defensive. What's up with that? Your post history is full of the same kind of defensiveness too.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
You have lied. And you should fix it.
MeanLet4962@reddit
You need help. Real help!
Kosmopolite@reddit
It's not a lie. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Please correct me.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
Not OP, but your response gives the idea that "American moving to a non-Americal local = Gentrification", full stop. There's a lot more to it.
Kosmopolite@reddit
I don't see my comment, but if you did, that's valid. I certainly don't feel that way as an immigrant myself. I thought that OP's talk about spending power made it pretty clear what we were talking about.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
Immigrants come to the US to improve "spending power" (usually for folks they may be supporting back home, or to stack up savings for an eventual return to their home nation). When immigration is inbound to the US, it's called "seeking economic opportunity".
When folks who are priced out of the areas they wish to live find acceptable stand-ins in nations outside of the States, where their dollar can go further, they can be forgiven for securing their ability to live and suppor themselves.
Kosmopolite@reddit
I don't disagree with any of that. I also think there's value in being aware of and trying to limit the amount we negatively affect the communities to which we choose to move.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
I agree with this. Consciously not chasing the absolute lowest place to live that could potentially be taken by a local is reasonable.
Even more so: not demanding that !newCountry be made into !oldCountry (kambucha shops, themed eateries and grocery shops from home, ordinances regarding noise, design, insistance on Level 1 infrastructure everywhere) also is important to avoid gentrification and negatively impacting locals. I think those are much more important than the housing: if a local couldn't affort a particular apartment/home before, I think an expat need have no shame/qualms about obtaining it.
MeanLet4962@reddit
I think they have a fair point. Great job being dismissive and defensive!
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
He made a comment out of thin air. That shouldn't be done.
MeanLet4962@reddit
It’s not out of thin air at all. It is meant to call out the portions of your post that he disagreed with. You don’t seem to support any conversations where someone disagrees with you. Do you label that as uncivil?
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
He deliberately misquoted me. That is uncivil and should be fixed.
Kosmopolite@reddit
I restated to communicate the point I felt I was responding to. Elsewhere I've asked for clarification. All in all, though, it seems like a self-justification post because folks have made you feel guilty about the effects that foreign gentrifiers have had and are having on locals.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Withdraw the made up quote, and then we can talk.
Kosmopolite@reddit
It's not a quote, man. It's my understanding of what you said. What did I get wrong?
MeanLet4962@reddit
“America has been so inviting to foreigners over the years”. Are you serious? America has the second most bureaucratic and unfriendly immigration system after Irak.
Yes, there are a lot of immigrants here but don’t you dare saying America has been inviting, unlike Canada, Australia, Switzerland, Britain and more, who value talent way more than America, and provide paths for citizenship, which America doesn’t. The legal system is so broken and outdated that it only encourages more illegal immigration.
So please, don’t flaunt that “it has been so inviting”. It has been extremely selective and not really towards the categories that can bring a lot of value to the country. I’m glad other countries make it difficult in return. Fair is fair.
Discount_gentleman@reddit
And, of course, this is "r/expats," not "r/immigrants." It's a community that rather explicitly refuses to be immigrants, but continues to define itself in relation to its home country.
Kosmopolite@reddit
Rule 6: we don't really make the distinction or talk about it here. I think that's probably for the best.
Absentrando@reddit
The US is more welcoming than most, speaking as someone who naturalized in the US and was an immigrant in several other countries before that. Also, why is the word foreigners in quotes?
Kosmopolite@reddit
Oh I put it into quotes because as an immigrant nation, one could argue that most people in the US are descended from foreigners. The quotes are their to signal that, without having to get into it.
I'm glad to hear that about your journey, though. That's good to hear.
Absentrando@reddit
Yes, but that’s true of everyone everywhere. U.S. experienced waves of mass immigration more recently than other places, but there are still foreigners and natives. It gets kind of annoying when people imply otherwise
Kosmopolite@reddit
Being neither Native American nor a US citizen, I don't really have a dog in this fight. As someone living in America, I've seen how complex this issue can be.
Anyway, that's why the inverted commas.
Absentrando@reddit
Then it’s best not to imply that everyone is a foreigner in the US.
Kosmopolite@reddit
That's not what I was intending to imply. I only intended to imply that there's some controversy in threads like this about what constitutes a foreigner in the USA. No offense intended.
Absentrando@reddit
Alright
treblclef20@reddit
Anti immigration isn’t the same as anti-foreigner. Though you’re hearing lots of anti-immigration-focused rhetoric right now in the US, that doesn’t really represent day to day life and the vast population. In general, the US is way more welcoming to foreigners than most cultures. Why? Because foreigners are nearly everywhere, even in small towns across America, not just big cities. As a culture and society, we are just used to it. At least, relatively speaking.
wandering_engineer@reddit
> I'd also question how welcoming the US is to 'foreigners', but that's another topic.
I'm American and as critical of my home country (and its rather messed-up culture) as anyone. But I still have to kind of disagree with this statement - the US is not perfect but is certainly no worse than the UK or many European countries when it comes to immigrants.
Kosmopolite@reddit
"No worse than the UK" isn't the great flex it might've once been.
MeanLet4962@reddit
Yep. I’m even shocked someone would compare the two immigration systems. If even only from an efficiency standpoint, the UK is in the 21st century. The US one is somewhere between the 19th and 20th. The UK system is not perfect and can be improved. The US one needs to be fully reinvented.
ususetq@reddit
I'm first-gen immigrant from Europe. I love my adopted country though I am also critical of it in some areas (labor laws etc.)[1]. I think US is, culturally, much better than Europe. It is much easier to integrate, at least as someone from Eastern Europe.
[1] I think it would be unpatriotic of me not to.
wandering_engineer@reddit
Agreed, that was the point I was going for. I went the other direction and feel Europe is honestly a better fit for me personally overall, but I absolutely think the US is far better at integrating newcomers than most other countries.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
I agree with you.
Gold-Temporary-3560@reddit
Sadly the us is a country of Indivilisitc Narcissism "google which country is most narcissistic" I was gone living in Canada for 15 year and LOVED the mental health of its population. The level of Narcissism or mean spirit comments, was rare on public transit. It kind of reminded me of the way Americans treated each other in the early 1970s. If they are moving away..good for them. If the middle class is treated better by its government and poverty is much lower and housing is MORE affordable and JOB security is much stronger and AFFORDABLE health care, they are having a better quality of life.
CarelessLet4431@reddit
OP what hasmigration to do with it? Are you suggesting that expats are actually just ordinary migrants? The horror! The horror!
Gullible_Eagle4280@reddit
IMO people (most everywhere) just don’t know much about how inflation works, the causes and rates of inflation globally and rely on their own perception of seeing more expats and assigning blame. It’s called observation bias.
A_Starving_Scientist@reddit
Inflation is a regressive tax that places an undue burden on the working class who spend a larger proportion of their income on essentials. This is a result of COVID, and government fiscal mismanagement across the board globally. Many governments are trying to use inflation to devalue their debts similar to how many countries paid off war debt after WW2. We have allowed the rich to eat the world. But its far easier for most people to just blame the immigrants then understanding how the financial system actually works and how they are being bent over.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Inflation is sometimes used correctly, to make your exports cheaper or draw in more tourism, both of which can be a huge benefit to the economy of a country.
phalanxs@reddit
That's... Not how inflation works. You're probably thinking of currency devaluation.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Oh yeah, I think you're right.
DiBalls@reddit
Sounds like a bootlicker.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
I'd submit that while there were legitimate supply-chain issues that impacted pricing, this is now a weak excuse, and corporations are dining out on it.
RavenRead@reddit
Inflation doesn’t explain a company that pays the lowest worker $33,000 and the highest worker $10 million. The spread shouldn’t be that big.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
You get no argument from me on this point, and yeah, there's much more at play than mere inflation (which is frankly caused by the corporations, untethered to resources or supply and demand).
A_Starving_Scientist@reddit
This completely. Some inflation was inevitable after COVID shut down the economy. They used massive money printing to keep everyone aloat while people were out of work, bolstered by increased unemployment benefits, PPP loans, reverse repo from the fed, and zero interest rates. But afterwards, corporations took advantage to price gouge and now most inflation is from that.
I am old enough to remember 2008 and how people blamed immigrants and poor people then, even though it was caused by the greed of the banking sector giving loans and mortgages to anyone with a pulse.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
I don't like the term inflation as much as cost of living increases because inflation has to do with monetary systems and interest rates and whatever else. But cost of living has to do with large amounts of government policy or ongoing political or financial events. Like urban planning, or income inequality, or unions.
But you're right that people just don't spend much time learning about the real reasons behind whatever is happening.
SpaceBetweenNL@reddit
You're so right!
In Ireland, people have plenty of space, the population density is low, BUT the housing crisis in Ireland is the worst in Europe. An awful mistake of the government and of local municipalities. They didn't build enough cheap apartment buildings in 1990s and 2000s, so it led to this. The same in the Netherlands. There's not much space here, but it's still possible to build new apartment complexes. Why wasn't it done? Because of the government.
tropikaldawl@reddit
I blame myself for moving to a place and making my life worse. I always knew I didn’t want to live here :( I don’t let myself live it down.
sffunfun@reddit
Nooooo gentrifiers tho /s
GingerSuperPower@reddit
So inviting of foreigners. lol.
Zeca_77@reddit
I live in Chile, which is not a big draw for people from the US or digital nomads. Even so, housing prices have gone through the roof. There is both a shortage of available housing and an issue of affordability.
It's not related to a few thousand of people coming here from developing countries. The issue is so much more complex. For a long time, there hasn't been planning for enough housing. The pandemic hit and the price of inputs skyrocketed. More than a few residential builders have gone bankrupt. Some abandoned contracts with the government to build social housing because they would have lost money. Now, high interest rates mean that many homes that were built recently are unaffordable.
We have had an influx of immigrants from the region, which has put more strain on the low- to mid-market. As a result, favela-type settlements have sprung up where people, often recent immigrants, illegally build. There are Chileans that also do this due to affordability issues These have always existed, but from what I have read, the numbers are increasing. Pre-pandemic they were falling.
Inflation and housing affordability are a huge problem in a lot of the world.
These days, I do work for a company abroad that pays me more than the typical wage here. But, I have developed my skills, studied, and gained a lot of experience over the years, giving me that option. I have worked for Chilean companies and it kind of sucked. So, if I can leverage that, I will. I pay my taxes on that income, and spend my money here.
South-Beautiful-5135@reddit
Some data: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166046223000285
The study found that a one percentage point rise in the immigration rate led to a 3.3% increase in average house sale prices. Both the direct demand from immigrants and the additional effect of natives moving to the same areas contribute to this price increase.
Bright_Beat_5981@reddit
That is something that is obvious. Upper middle class Mexicans, as in this exampel, seem to want to live in Condesa and Roma norte to a much higher deegre than before. Many who could afford Polanco ( the classic wealthy apartment area) now choose to move where the few foreigners are located.
shopgirl56@reddit
nobody reads
people r mean
Bright_Beat_5981@reddit
The whole Mexico city thing is more or less fake. The city is enormous. The gringos and foreigners are in 1% of the city, half of them are nornal tourists. You can walk for hours in relatively central Cdmx and not seeing a single foregnier if you avoid the tourist spots.
clancyconeja@reddit
I think its wishful thinking that Americand wont be blamed. My husband is Mexican and when we were in Mexico, he told the kids not to speak in the taxis because if the driver heard English "nos sacan los ojos" aka we will be ripped off. Its just the way it is.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
I have never seen anyone on this subreddit blame expats for anything. This is a bizarre post. This sub is very pro-immigration.
And California is not "another country."
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
People do it all the time on this subreddit and others.
Of course they're not, just like retirees aren't (generally) either. I never said they were.
imaginarynombre@reddit
It's actually amusing how uptight people are about others moving to Mexico City, a metro area of 22 million. A few expats are a drop in the bucket, and most of the people complaining aren't even from Mexico City.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Yep.
Absentrando@reddit
People like scapegoats to pin their problems on. Immigrants are a convenient target.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Yep.
CoffeeWithDreams89@reddit
Thank you! It has been sorta baffling that people jump on a sub about expats to criticize…expats. Like do they get on a sub about argyle sweaters and talk about how argyle sucks? 🥴
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
I don't get it either. I think it's unhappy people venting their frustrations.
aalecia@reddit
As someone strongly considering moving to India I feel this so much.
tiredandhurty@reddit
Reddit is just a shit hole too, overcome with Russian bots. This group would probably work better elsewhere
Devinroni@reddit
Yep! We get downvoted for posting about it. Fuck those assholes who do that. We're all just trying to find better living smh
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Yeah. There are many mean spirited and ignorant people out there. Instead of fixing their own lives, they try to make others miserable.
DruidWonder@reddit
Nobody seems to have a problem with foreign products coming into their countries, benefiting off of the labors of others cultures... but when it comes to human movement, they want to keep them all out.
I'm not for totally open borders but our immigration systems are pretty backward.
Desperate_Word9862@reddit
Great topic and I agree. Most of the comments are spot on, but I had to block somebody. No room for negativity just reading up about hopefully being able to retire and have a better life. Happy new year everyone, let’s try to realize we have more in common than not.
bruhbelacc@reddit
The prices of real estate have gone 2X over 10 years in my family's village and town, where no one moves. The population actually falls dramatically in both.
A_Starving_Scientist@reddit
This is a world wide problem created by the greed of corporations, not just immigration. Is it right to blame people who are fleeing their own housing crisis? By all means countries have to prioritize their own citizenry first, but this is a much more complex issue then just too many immigrants.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
It's not just greed. It's also the fact that many countries have a lot of people who don't want new housing built, or who try to stop development for no good reason. In the USA, there are people who will file a lawsuit about a new development 4 miles away from them. Nimbyism is huge.
numb3rsnumb3rs@reddit
That is also greed
A_Starving_Scientist@reddit
Nimbyism is also mostly greed. Old people with paid off homes would rather young people be homeless in their respective countries rather than their property values go down or the "neighborhood character" changing.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's just old people with no hobbies.
bruhbelacc@reddit
It's a complex question, but I think real estate prices are pumped because of the decade-long extremely low interest rates and the high savings of the middle class. Those low interest rates were meant to ease the financial pain of the 2008 crisis and then Covid by injecting a lot of money in the economy. As a result, everyone and their aunt who has some savings now wants to buy a second or an investment property "because it's going to increase in value". Same for corporations, so no one told politicians to stop this.
Foreigners might have a small effect on this, but that's not the core reason.
Evening-Car9649@reddit (OP)
That's interesting.