I bought my 2025 m240i in oct. ‘24 so I’m one of them. For me BMW finally having a reliable power train moved the needle. I always liked their interiors…but w/o reliability I was never inclined to buy.
The B58/zf8 powertrain is fantastic and absolutely worth the price of admission.
I bought my first bmw this year…2025 m240i xdrive.
I love it. quite Fast, well made and filled with tech…there really isn’t much to complain about. I wouldn’t mind if they waved a magic wand and made it exactly like it is now…but somehow 300 lbs lighter. But…the car feels lighter when driving than it is.
I ordered a 2025 M3 at the end of July for October delivery. I had to go to a different state to get an allocation because the two high volume dealers in my Midwest city that got 1 allocation a month had a 3 person wait list at both dealers. There are a few broker services out there to help you find order allocations since they can be tough to come by.
The S55 is way underrated imo. Sure you can't push as much power as the S58 but with RWD only in the M2 it's already a handful stock. Makes S58 power on a stage 1 tune as well.
Pick one up man. Everytime I get to drive my buddies N55 M2 its a shit ton of fun. The Comp isn't that much more expensive, but is more costly if something breaks, sounds way worse too.
Drive both and I'm sure you'll pick either of them up.
That's not really a fair comparison lol. The 1M was one of the lowest volume production BMWs of all time. Basically all cars, even sporty, enthusiast M cars and Porsches used to depreciate until covid. I bought a E92 M3 in showroom condition for like 25k a few years before that, sticker price of about 70k.
I hear ya. It seems like you can score an earlier comp version for under $50K or the standard M2 which is still perfectly splendid in the $40's easily. I have one on my radar for sure. I love the styling & performance. Reminds me of my beloved E30 325is coupe from years back. :)
I've been searching for a OG n55 M2 for a while, but again the prices just seem too silly for me. 40k for a nice car, but without even a S series M engine. If they were closer to 30k I would have already picked one up, I'm looking to replace my e36 M3 coupe. I love the e36 but it's getting a bit old and clunky, it's nearly 30 years old with 176k miles.
So, BMW and Lexus had record years while cheap vehicle sales are also on the rise? Yeah, the middle class is fucked. You’re either rich or poor in this country now.
>You’re either rich or poor in this country now.
Nah, what you're describing as "rich" here is just the middle class. The upper class has left this dichotomy completely lol
You also can't forget used vehicles last much longer now, so you basically split the market into 3 segments:
One: poor people who insist on new vehicles get the cheapest crossover they can find
Two: people who want to finally splurge get the best new vehicle they can
Three: everyone else gets a used vehicle
The ratio of used vehicles sold to new vehicles is roughly 2:1, so it's basically a stable market.
Two key components here IMO:
1. Reliability for BMW has gotten a lot better. A lot of people (myself inc) were waiting to pull the trigger on luxury sports cars because of that. Consider that they used to be next to Mercedes in terms of reliability, which is to say the bottom quintile of makes, and now they're in the top quintile. Quite impressive, feels like they stole a bunch of industry secrets from Toyota during their collab on the Supra lol.
2. A non-clown EV portfolio - the i4/i5 are excellent from what I hear and the iX is probably the nicest interior of any car I've been in. Selling them as actual luxury products instead of the half baked environmentalism/economy angle has been great.
Not everyone is broke of course and even then people regardless of income at times will still throw themselves into expensive lease or finance payments to say they have a new car it's just consumerism nothing particularly new. My gfs best friend is paying 1400 for her suburban while the husband is shelling out 1100 for his truck.
💀
Oof, not one but TWO 84 trucks (or SUV in the other case)
- $84,000+
-84 month loan or longer
-8.4% interest or higher
-worth $8400 when you finally sell it
-complain about gas 84 times per week.
The numbers speak for themselves, people clearly like the new designs. I don't, so after the G80, I'll probably be off BMWs for good. Not going to force myself to buy something I don't visually like over brand loyalty
They have very different philosophies on how to maintain their iconic IP, though in fairness, it looks like the Neue Klasse team are mostly BMW purists.
I'm seeing increasingly more new 5 series in my city. Most of the drivers were >50 years. Regular older people who have money really love the new style.
Or they like the interiors and test drive and dealer experience and improved reliability metrics. There is more to a car than just the looks, and maybe some people are OK with a car that only looks good from some angles if all else is good.
That's possible.
But what if looks are completely subjective, the new BMW's stand out like crazy on the road which some people like. They don't look like just another Audi or another Mercedes, each one of them looks so vastly different, and they stand out like crazy.
Certainly, plenty of people are also OK with (or enamored of) the looks, and some models are worse than others. I've come around to a certain degree on the 4 series as well, and now it's the weight more than the looks of the beaver teeth that turns me off of them (and the difficulty finding cooled seats).
There are so many people out there saying the auto industry is in big trouble for abandoning cheaper cars in favor of more expensive ones that have higher profit margins.
Sure doesn't seem like that's the case.
If you look at the data, the median age of a new car buyer is rapidly growing.
this checks out because the wealth inequality in America. The wealth has been moving with a certain age group as young buyers struggle.
It’s also a main driver in why SUVs continue to dominate and the death of the cheap sports car. The only people with disposable income now are 50+ years old and it’s much easier getting in and out of SUVs.
Early 40s here. We are closing in on 200k a year in a LCOL area, family of 4. A "Average" new car price of 49k (50k+ after taxes and fees) never made sense to us. Our budget was 35k so we picked up a used 2021 Highlander XLE with 29k miles for 33k. No way in hell will we ever pay 1k a month for car payments.
Apparently, [the average new car price is now down to $45k](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1hsx1pm/average_us_transaction_price_for_new_vehicles_is/), continuing its slow decline from its peak 2 years ago of ~$50k.
According to COX it's 49k.
"According to the most recent data from Cox Automotive, the average transaction price for new cars is $48,978. That’s down 3% from the peak of $49,929 in December 2022. New car prices increased slightly in December. New car selling prices have held steady for the past year, as shown in the graph from KBB above."
https://caredge.com/guides/new-car-price-trends-in-2025#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways%20*%20The%20average%20price%20for,new%20car%20prices%20in%20the%20months%20ahead.
It's also the case that the market has shifted such that the value proposition for a cheap new car just isn't there for someone cost-conscious given the longevity of used cars.
30, 40 years ago a used car would often approaching dead at 100k miles, now it's more likely to be able to driven another 100k-150k+ miles without major engine issue.
So that's a real pickle for manufacturers, because if you did make another $20k car it's not like you can offer the person just trying to get from point A to B reliably all that much versus a used car for $5k,$10k, $15k.
So instead you go after the person who is buying a new car to have a *nice car,* with nicer materials, bigger engines, more cameras, luxury features and touches. And then that's bumping up the price, but fine and acceptable because you're trying to come up with things that just didn't really exist in the used market at any scale.
Yeah Europe's poor overall, stuff is expensive, incomes are relatively low and cars have been taxed and regulated to the point that you have to be downright rich to avoid really luxurious cars Americans see as merely nice.
It's not strictly untrue though. In a lot of western Europe they're effectively taxing people out of owning an old diesel car which is the most common option out there. And anything bigger than a Golf is just kind of impractical. Taxes in general on cars are crazy high. Gasoline is taxed heavily, diesel less so. I don't know how people afford cars out there, much less random Dodge Rams hanging out in the middle of Amsterdam.
There's also generally speaking nowhere near the kind of salary/discretionary income that you see in wealthier areas of the US. Your average FAANG tech bro is making 200k USD/yr. Sure, they can't ever get sick and there's no public transit and the built environment is one big liminal space but you can afford a Model 3 easily because we subsidize driving to such an extreme degree. "Free" parking, cheap registration, low car-specific taxes, near zero toll roads, almost every part of American society is built to diffuse the cost of driving.
> Sure doesn't seem like that's the case.
As long as you're only talking about BMW in America, you're absolutely correct. If you're talking about the actual car industry in the whole world, you're very wrong.
Well tbh BMW is the odd one out in the auto industry. They are one of the only legacy automakers where sales numbers are relatively stable. But still they had to give out profit warnings twice this year and the profit share will miss their goal corridor of 8-10% by a substantial margin.
Funnily enough, their current well standing is mainly caused by them refusing to go full electric, but the way forward seems to be a 100% bet on the Neue Klasse, an ev only platform.
Sales are stable because BMW shits on their own residuals to get you in a 3 year lease just to turn around and CPO that lease again and double dip, then when you bring back that CPO lease they finally triple dip one last sale.
BMW is the only luxury automaker who realizes the value game is overrated and moving units is the only metric that matters. Just look at the monthly prices. BMW commands a significant DECREASE over Benz and Audi while offering cars that even objectively are class leading.
True. The first two sales make corporate a lot of money between the car note, any add ons, the warranties.
BMW is still the only German brand that embraces the lease lifestyle. It is actually insane when you compare leases to Audi or Benz and see how much more the comparables are for no obvious reason.
Benz in particular huffs glue for what they charge on a note.
Yes that was the tip of the iceberg. But even without the recall the numbers were nowhere near the targets. Without the recall and strong sales in Q4 they maybe would've managed to get close, but the sales fell down even further instead of picking up. So even without the recall they wouldn't have managed to get there.
I think they’re benefiting from being essentially the default premium/luxe option. Around where I am it seems the defaults are:
* affordable ICE/hybrid: Toyota then Hyundai/Kia
* premium/luxe ICE/hybrid: BMW
* EV: Tesla, although that seems to be turning a bit lately. Especially towards Hyundai/Kia on the more affordable side and BMW on the premium side
[And the total outstanding auto debt has almost DOUBLED in the past decade](https://www.lendingtree.com/auto/debt-statistics/), with [loan delinquency rates at an all time high](https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/rising-auto-loan-delinquencies-and-high-monthly-payments-20240926.html). It's almost like a lot of people can only afford these expensive cars by taking out loans they shouldn't be. Dang.
>The wealthy who buy cars as fashion statements
But that's too broad of a demographic to describe precisely what Jaguar is after that Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls, German luxury brands and Italian exotics aren't already getting at.
Up until 10 minutes ago I'd have said it's for 50-80 year olds who want something luxurious and refined without a huge performance focus but also out of the mainstream than a typical German car maker without the cost of something really high end like an Aston or a Bentley.
>athlete’s/CEO’s wives.
Those are driving Land Rovers and G-Wagons and Cayennes or something more exotic.
The media just would go alllll silent on it and move onto their next scapegoat hate target hit job. The manosphere podcasters / proselytizers - "Real men don't wear shorts" "wear a jacket in high summer to show your sigma wolf status" "heatstroke is a good thing really"
Idiocracy was a toned down documentary, we are WAY past that level of stupid now....
It’s hilarious how often Reddit gets it wrong.
Currently the subs are stunned that Tacoma is the best selling truck it’s in class.
There were so many doomers on Reddit saying “Toyota is out of their mind with these prices”, “the 4-banger won’t sell”, and “Toyotas reliability woes are going to affect them”
Meanwhile the Tacoma had its best November sales of all time.
I honestly thought I was gonna see the same amount of cyber trucks and hummers on the road. Turns out I was very wrong. See those cyber trucks nearly everywhere.
Who said people had taste? The world of fashion reveals that every single day....
Could also be that many are tacitly saying the quiet part out loud, the car version of "I'm not racist but...."
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That’s if you’re only reading headlines.
Look at the data and the Tacoma had production ramp up.
Now that production has stabilized Tacoma just hit their best ever November sale s
Not surprising. People who wanted a new Tacoma in 2022-2023 would have had a decent reason to wait for the new one. Let's see how those numbers look the next 2-3 years.
That’s because Tacoma drivers are a cult filled with useless middle managers that live in a suburb outside Seattle who only drive it to work
, rei and Costco
90% of posts in that sub are people complaining about one of 3 things.
- no wagons in the US
- the grilles and the new designs
- that they can’t order crazy colors
1) They weren't buying the wagons to begin with
2) Might be the only valid critique, the now not current gen design language just ain't it
3) They couldn't afford the crazy colors to begin with
I swear I'm not a contrarian but I'm not too into cars and I feel like I'm on crack bc a lot of the things Reddit thinks are ugly, like the Cybertruck or new BMW grilles, I think actually look good. I'm mixed on the grilles on the SUVs though, it's fine on their coupes/sedans but I feel like it leaves too much empty/unbalanced space on the sides of the SUV faces? Idk how to explain it.
It’s a good philosophy, save for those moments where you are walking to your car thinking “damn - that looks good”. Couldn’t do that with the recent snouts.
You are right, but if people buy cars like multipla, cybertruck, I don't think we will ever see a car, that will sell poor only because of how it looks.
Everyone loves to talk about how they wish Wagon's were still around.
Despite non of those same people ever actually putting thier money where their mouth is.
So Wagon's don't get made. Same for brown manuals.
Car Enthusiasts will complain about some brand new care despite themselves driving a 20 year old Used piece of shit and the fact that they will never be able to afford whatever car they are talking about.
I drive a 20 year old piece of shit E39...daily, and contrary to what ever anybody else is saying its probably guys like me driving in these piece of shit cars that motivated 370k people to buy a Beamer.....because they are 20 years old and still look amazing and still run amazing. Personally i think the 5 series E39 is one of the most attractive BMWs to ever grace public hands, especially when the right mods are implemented to accent the existing design
I had a coworker in the early naughts who was always complaining about the new cars being shit. He was in this BMW club and obviously none of the losers could afford a car newer than ten years which is why they were all seen as shit. His car was so rusted the yearly inspection dude put a hammer through the floor and that was apparently not an issue with the car.
You’ll often see on r/BMW.
*posts a pic of the last gen M car* and captions it *the last true m car*.
Then the top comment is usually “mom says I get to post this next”
I remember when the E46 was the best, and the E90 was a fat pig. Nowadays the E90 is amazing due to V8 and hydraulic steering, while the F30 and later are "soulless" or something, idk. I'm sure in 5-10 years people will be gushing over the F30 for its tamer looks and DCT or something.
It’s already happening. People have already decided that the F80 M3 and the G80 with the manual are now the peak of BMW and the last true great M cars because the next M3 will be hybrid and heavy and probably auto only.
As the primary r/BMW mod, I actually don't see much complaints about wagons and crazy colors. 99% of complaints are about the new designs.
There's also the posts where someone goes "I got a new BMW and like the design" and people shitting on the OP for daring to not conform.
I actually love how someone liking something pisses the morons off.
Like Bruh at least they went out and bought the car. Meanwhile your ass is probably driving a 2001 Toyota Camry that had the Catalytic converter stolen.
One notable time on /r/bmw someone was giving OP shit on one of the “just got a new BMW” threads saying how ugly it is and when I mentioned how rude that was they then began making fun of the cars in my flair saying how they are the real BMW enthusiast and everyone else are just badge whores who can’t drive and what not.
A quick peek at their post history quickly showed that they were in their 30s, lived in Boston with their parents and recently purchased a used E90 328i that was about 20 years old that they recently got into an accident in and did t have the money to fix it so they drove around in a primer front bumper.
So yeah that’s the kind of people who tend to really enjoy gatekeeping.
> A quick peek at their post history quickly showed that they were in their 30s, lived in Boston with their parents and recently purchased a used E90 328i that was almost 20 years old that they recently got into an accident in and didn’t have the money to fix it so they drove around in a primer front bumper.
... its only 10... :'(
I'd say that 90% of *complaint* posts are about the new designs, but in general most of the posts are pretty typical car posts. e.g. new car, what mods should I do, I have an issue help, etc.
um... i think if you read only r/cars you'd also think BMW is going to go out of business any moment in US.
cuz every single BMW falls apart after 3 years, and nobody should be buying them is the only advice this sub has for people that asks about BMW rofl.
I've never seen anybody in this subreddit post that "BMW has lost their way" or something or other without being swiftly corrected by 109158103958 dissenting commenters.
In fact, most times, it's not even somebody saying BMWs won't sell. They just say the current generation is ugly and numb to drive. And yet they still receive the canned response, "erm,,, turns out consumers don't care about those things chud!" when that's not even the point they were making in the first place.
Yes, it turns out BMWs can be ugly and gimmicky and still be best-sellers at a time where Mercedes-Benz seems to only step on rakes.
BMW has *a lot* of fans that for them isn't "damn, this is a cool car" but "damn, this is the megacorp I *identify* with." So even slight criticisms can get quite an angry response.
I'm with you I think MB's uh struggles have a lot to do with this, in addition to this sub basically wanting the opposite of what the broad market wants.
The new designs are uglier and the head of design left/was pushed out 3 months ago.
That being said, I think the improved overall reliability and performance from the B48/B58/S58 are the key reasons.
I really wish the top comment for the weekly bmw post isn't this. We get it the enthusiasts live in a bubble and are out of touch. Really want a bmw 4 or 5 after college though.
They wouldn’t. The 4 series sells MORE than the 3 series. And that’s not because of the M4 and also not because of the coupe or convertible. More people are choosing the 4 GC over the 3 sedan. Guess people like the pig snout after all…
> The truth of course is the i4 skewing the numbers.
I think the i4's have sold well but overall there are twice as many 4 series options as the 3. For the 3, you have the sedan and the M3. For the 4, you have the coupe, gran coupe, i4, and M4.
I really haven't seen a lot of 4 series on the road other than a handful of coupes and a ton of i4's. It would be interesting to see them broken down further.
Yeah, it's not as apples to apples as one might think. There are more 4-series models than 3-series. I'd love to see a 3-series sedan to 4-series coupe sales comparison, without the M versions, or GC, or I4 mucking up the numbers.
You can generally take the M3/M4 out of the equation, their sales numbers are negligible in comparison to the volume models. Last time I checked 4 series GC was like 85% of the 4 series volume.
So now the numbers: 3 series sales are 31k, 4 series sales are 42k, with i4s being over half of that at 23k. That means there are 19k conventional 4 series with about 85% of them being GC, it comes out to around 16k.
Ok well, with all things considered its more looking like 31k 3 sedans to 16k 4 GC. Seems like the ratio is 66/33
Numbers are available online. First two places by a large margin are X5 and X3 with 72k and 68k units. Followed by the 4 series with 42k units and then the 3 series with 31k units.
Electric mini is super fun to drive. Really go cart feeling on the next level (JCW is arriving in feb, but I had the SE for a couple months). Material is okayish, quality as in how well it is put together could be better, but I attribute a lot of it to it being first model year and not built by BMW themselves, but by Great Wall Motors in China. I expect them to address those issues quickly, so later model years should be better.
Range could be better, I was getting ~400km city driving in the summer. But let’s be honest, its a car made for the city, so that is totally fine.
Software sucks ass big time, a lot of crashes and weird glitches, feels like it was rushed out and unfinished. But I also expect that to get better with the coming software updates.
In total I‘d say model year 26/27 and later should be very compelling cars given the correct pricing.
i have been considering an aceman or a 3 door for around city driving ever since they broke cover, i wanted to buy an older se but i do a 150 160 km trip every week and i dont think it can do that trip without charging along the way, sad to see the software being terrible though i assume its not idrive based like older minis.
Also the jcw is the trim level right? The performance ev one isnt out yet i think?
I drove the Mini SE (218hp), which had the JCW trim with full options, that one is out since like beginning of 24 iirc. On order at the moment and due to arrive is my Mini JCW (258hp), the full fledged JCW.
The software is based on the iDrive 9 system found in the FWD BMWs, but with a heavy reskin. Not like the older minis where it was just the same system.
I‘d recommend the Mini starting with model year 26, I think they will have fixed most hardware issues by then. I guess there will still be some bugs left in the software, but those will probably be fixed and pushed through remote upgrade during ownership.
I’m working for BMW, so with employee discounts and rent programs it doesn’t make sense for me to get anything else, but if you’re looking for a smallish city E.V., for other options I’d recommend to have a look at the new EV smart (really nice cars and reasonably priced), the VW ID3/Cupra equivalent (with the facelift they introduced the GTX and software works now as well) and the new Renault R5 seems to be quite good as well.
jeez even worse materials than 3 door, thats just sad
i wanted a clubman but the pricing for new ones were idiotic to say the least where i live (used ones arent any better) with the ev tax incentives the aceman will be attractively priced, unfortunately they dont sell the id3 here, but they sell the 200hp born for the same price as the ev countryman
i may just get the renault 5, i sat in one and it was great, so was the tech in it, certainly better than the clio which i worked on lmao.
Its a genius move to be honest. Under the metal housing they are the same car, so what they did was create one with conservative styling and one with really out there styling to get sales in two target groups instead of either focusing on only one or not hitting it on the head for both groups.
Same thing they did with the X5/X7. They realised a lot of people were cross-shopping them, so they kept the C5 more conservative and made the X7 extroverted. Win-win for everyone included (but mostly BMW for getting more sales).
The previous generation didn't sell as well against rivals as the current generation cars. Like it or not, new car buyers are responding positively to the styling.
BMW sells like hotcakes despite their design because their lease deals are nearly always attractive relative to the competition. Yeah that means dirt cheap second hand cars so none of this is surprising
I have. Definitely quick enough off the line but nowhere near as fast as the M50. The one I drove was a RWD too, and due to the conditions, had been raining heavily right before I test drove it, it broke loose quite a bit.
It only has 335 HP but with all the torque, I could barely tell the difference between it and my M340 power wise. BMW is very good at making these things drive like traditional cars (power delivery aside) compared to all of the others I've driven. This would be the perfect daily but man, it is nowhere near the level of thrill you get in the M50.
Absolutely insane how quick this thing is. I don't think I've ever had a headache after driving a car but the way this pulls is unlike anything I have ever experienced before
Got to drive it for the last 2 years at the UDE event they do across the country, where you get to beat the shit out of it on an autocross track for free. Besides regenerative braking which can be off putting if you’re not used to it, it quite literally was the only EV that impressed me. It did everything right, and it was powerful. I loved it
Yes. BMW builds BMWs that happen to be electric.
Yes, you're still carrying that weight. But just like their whale ICE counterparts, you'd be damned to figure out where that weight actually went when you start tossing it around.
I don’t know what planet you’re living on but I’ve met lots of people who flex the badge regardless of what low end model they bought. BMW sales benefit immensely from being seen a status symbol, but that’s nothing new.
One where I realize that the people flexing their $499/month lease special 330i aren’t indicative of the general population who actually buy these cars.
I’ve personally have never met these people you mention but again I avoid people like that and realize they are out there.
Just drive around NYC, Miami, any other young money city for like, 30 seconds, and you'll see that " $499/month lease special 330i " IS the BULK of who's actually buying "these cars".
That and Uber drivers - you can take Premier fares in a base 3 series but not in a Lexus IS, G70, Cadillac CT4. https://www.uber.com/global/en/eligible-vehicles/?city=nyc-suburbs
> You act like 20 year olds flock out to buy X5s.
2010s X6es, but... yes. 20-somethings gravitate to third-owner BMWs like flies to sugar water.
>Just drive around NYC, Miami, any other young money city for like, 30 seconds, and you'll see that " $499/month lease special 330i " IS the BULK of who's actually buying "these cars".
I have and while I definitely see more of that there than I do here, they're still not the "bulk" of who's buying the cars lol.
I’m good.
I realize that the losers on social media eager to show off are statistically speaking, wildly off the median BMW buyer age of around their mid 40s.
Maybe a refresher in critical thinking would do you some good though.
I knew a guy in 2018 who constantly posted his new M3 alongside expensive, daddy-bankrolled purchases- while pretending he was self-made. I only know this because we partnered with him at a marque-specific show because he had followers and we needed eyes on product.
It happens, it’s just hardly a majority. I don’t see it because aspirational/wealthy enthusiast/modern car content doesn’t show on my feed- weeding out that content makes ones’s socials far more realistic.
That's not "common sense" at all. Many BMW's are just the best value proposition in their class.
It's fine to have your opinion that BMW's aren't good value, but many people disagree with you.
Maybe for the lower income people who stretch their finances to lease a X2.
But for most of its customer base it’s just a car that does what it’s designed to well.
If I could lease an EV sports sedan of the same quality as my i4 I absolutely would have. I even test drove Hyundai and Kia.
At the end of the day it’s just a mass produced cad
I bought a 2025 M440 this year. I like the grille. I think it's overblown when you look at other cars on the market, they have similar sized grilles. I had a 2021 Genesis G70 and grille was essentially the same size.
In the fourth quarter of 2024, BMW sales in the U.S. totaled 117,506 vehicles, an 8.9% increase from the 107,881 vehicles sold in the fourth quarter of 2023. For the full year 2024, BMW sales increased by 2.5% to total sales of 371,346 vehicles compared to the 362,244 vehicles sold in 2023. This represents the second consecutive year that BMW has set a new sales record in the U.S.
I drive an E39 daily and honestly when someone sees a car 20 years old that looks and runs like mine it probably doesnt hurt their motivation to buy one next time they are looking for a new car
> best new driving cars you can buy
This, I will not deny. And I've gotten to sling many of them around on the BMW Performance Center track in Greer, SC and they are a fucking BLAST to drive hard. Even the X series. Heck, I got to drive an M5 that wasn't even on sale in the US at the time we were playing with it.
But here's the thing that chomps my gnaw about BMW's.
The stupid little shit that they just seem to throw in for no dumb reason.
Case in point: A friend of mine (a well-to-do MD) has a 5 series. I believe it is a 2018. He has always taken the car to the dealership for service and he's on a first name basis with the place. He doesn't do anything to that car himself and always demands the dealership work on it.
A month or so ago, his nearly-deaf wife pointed out that she could hear the blower fan for the a/c would click on and off for no reason.
So, he takes it to the dealership. They find that under the cowling there is this mesh fabric that serves as the intake filter and there's another micro filter that sits on top of it.
"It's a well known issue on this model that these filters disintegrate..." writes the tech on the web site my friend uses to approve/deny work.
"... unfortunately, this one has disintegrated and destroyed the blower fan. $1800 please".
That, frankly, pissed me off.
One, if it is a "well known issue" why wasn't the dealership checking it when the car was in for regular maintenance? And two, again, if it is a well known issue why wasn't there a TSB or some such to address it?
Other than the dealership scoring a $1800 check out of some random guy who doesn't know better.
This is but one example. But I've seen many of these stupid little bullshit items over the years from friends vehicles to pop up enough to make me never want to own a BMW. Despite being a blast to drive.
Only way to make cost of ownership reasonable is DIY everything. The blower motor is less than 300 USD but book labor is 6 hours which is laughably high. Between parts markup + that killer labor quote you can save 1500 USD in an afternoon.
... because in many major urban markets 75%+ of BMWs are leased for 3 yrs, so they just don't care about long term maintenance & reliability. BMW expects those driving $60k+ cars to lease them & turn them over again & again.
You know, there's plenty of things that vary by culture, which have no wrong answer. Some things are better (like most of the metric system). But using a period in the middle of an integer number is wrong, and I'll die on that hill. It's not a matter of "well it only looks wrong because you're used to the other way". It's wrong because the separator is just there to give your brain a pause. It matches the spoken and written language for numbers. When you say "three hundred seventy one thousand three hundred forty six", there's a natural pause there in the middle. Pauses in most indo-european languages (including English and German) are designated by a comma. The end of a complete thought is designated by a period. So when writing numbers, it makes sense to use a comma in the middle of a whole number. Because there's no meaningful difference between 999 and 1000. It's just that in a long number, such as 371,346 a comma helps the brain to parse how large the number is. Then when that number is completed, we should end it with a period to mark the conclusion of the integer portion, before we start the fractional/decimal portion - which is a separate and distinct thought.
TL;DR: Cultures who put periods in the middle of whole numbers are just doing it wrong. It's backwards from how most every culture speaks and writes language. Commas go every 10^(3n) and periods go between the integer and fractional values.
BMW EV lineup is still most competitive than Mercedes and Audi, that’s great news.
> For the full year 2024, MINI brand sales decreased by 21.5% to total sales of 26,299 vehicles compared to the 33,497 vehicles sold in 2023.
Oof, they really need to improve Mini ASAP. It needs new leadership and plans.
They just need A plan, period. When I was selling them, they basically never listened to dealers and just would do what they think made sense in their big German corporate meetings and that was that. There were like 6 different marketing strategies in the few years I was there. The product is actually quite good, though the new ones are a bit more polarizing to the brand enthusiasts, but the rest of the public, especially state-side, just forgets it exists entirely.
Not to mention not being able to profitably sell two very important new models in North America since in typical fashion, they made the genius decision to partner with a Chinese company right as trade tensions were starting to boil over.
I think they also abandoned their core product too early focusing on all EV by 2030, while letting ICE go through another facelift. Had they worked on integration of the mild hybrid powertrain seen in some markets on the new Countryman, or even expanded on the old PHEV Countryman, which despite being a compliance special, was actually a pretty good car, I think we may have seen a different picture.
An ICE or PHEV Aceman with AWD would be a slam dunk in the US market, which is what dealers have essentially been saying for years, they need a subcompact CUV in that space for the people who don’t want the now much bigger Countryman. It’s basically a slightly larger Hardtop 4dr, and I can tell you, we had people all time asking if they made on in AWD. Instead, they kept the Clubman around forever, which almost nobody wanted and we practically had to give away, and have proceeded to further bury their heads in the sand as to what their customers and dealers are actually asking for.
I truthfully don’t think BMW has really ever quite known what to do with MINI, as much as they’ve made some really good products over the years (and some not good), but now they’re really at the culmination of some poor management, ignorance of individual markets and consumer wants, absolutely zero marketing effort, no consistent brand message, and some very crappy decisions.
It’s a great shame, as the cars now are incredibly reliable, very safe, very engaging to drive, and I’m very happy with mine. But I’m one person.
From the perspective of an American who's into hot hatches and wagons, I just went down the rabbit hole learning about the B48 motor recently. It's really good and underrated by enthusiasts IMO. In looking at what models had it, I came across the litany of Minis that have some of the highest output versions of it. Interesting! Until I saw the interiors. Holy shit those look *awful*. Ditch the kitsch and just have something that looks nice. I get that Mini is supposed to be kinda cute and quirky but the interiors just make me cartoon hamsters in a Scion. Cheap and cheesy.
Personally, I think if you’re looking at the performance SUV side, the X3 just has that much more utility for the money. Plus a full M version if it’s in the budget. Otherwise I’d just save the $$ and get a JCW Clubman ALL4 and pocket the rest. The X1 is a solid vehicle, and the M35i has its place, but when the X3 exists, I think I’d just go that route if I were SUV shopping.
If money were no object, I’d definitely get an X3M Competition if I needed more space than the hatch I have. That thing is ridiculously awesome to drive.
Yeah X3M comp is wild. If I was looking at it I'd probably go Macan GTS but that's just personal preference. Seems like the X3M is objectively better in a lot of ways.
Bigger issue than their drivetrain is they’re kinda stuck with their compact form factor. It’s great in dense cities but it’s a hard sell to areas with more space.
Very true, it’s pretty much why the Countryman came to exist. And the Countryman is the major reason the brand has been able to survive thus far, because it’s that greater utility and size that people want more across the board.
Another issue in the US speaks to that too, because the smaller cars get viewed as toys or impractical, or unsafe, because of their size. None of which is really true, but when you don’t do anything to overcome that perception, there’s not exactly any fault on the public for thinking otherwise. They’ve kinda left that up to the word of mouth of owners as well as dealers to build that story.
They’re also in kind of a weird space in the US where, by and large, people equate size with price. So, a $35,000 MINI is seen as super overpriced because it’s being compared to something like a Kia Soul or something of that nature. The problem is, there’s really no other, and forgive the douchey term, “boutique-ish” cars on sale here anymore. The Beetle is dead, and we don’t get the DS3-esque performance hatches here en masse to compare to. The GTI is probably the closest thing, and VW isn’t having that much better of a time. Of course, it doesn’t help that the public sees European cars are unreliable and expensive. The former of which, BMW has done a terrible job of addressing past failures and promoting their success in improving reliability. The latter of which, is somewhat overblown and simultaneously proven true by dealers charging crazy labor rates for stuff that really isn’t as intensive as it may seem.
Yea bad position to be in for mini. Making a much bigger car will move away from the mini brand and lots of people won’t pay a premium for a small car for all your reasons. Always had a soft spot for minis quirky interiors but don’t see myself getting one
[It got new leadership a few months ago.](https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0441988EN/change-in-leadership-at-mini-brand?language=en)
The interior design of the new Mini is a massive downgrade compared to the last generation.
I don't see why anyone would buy a new one over a slightly used one.
In terms of the tech and UI itself, having had both back to back, I think the UI is actually a massive upgrade. The Gen3 models were on a very outdated platform using an old version of iDrive that really wasn’t designed to handle CarPlay and couldn’t even accommodate Android Auto. Which was fine in 2014 when it came out but was well outdated a year ago when it was discontinued. My 2018 didn’t even have onboard NAV, and it was a pretty well-equipped model otherwise.
But, the layout is very polarizing. The lack of a gear selector is weird, though I must admit I do appreciate the big storage cubby in its place. But, the lack of manual gearbox availability is a big turn-off for a lot of MINI buyers. I like the DCT, but they should have both options available.
Otherwise, having used other haptic systems before, I figured it would suck, but I thought it was a lot better than VW’s for example, which is what made me more comfortable making the switch, I find it pretty easy to use. But, I’m decently tech-savvy, and knowing the average MINI buyer is like 100, I can see where they’re having a lot of hesitation. The new system also has had some bugs for sure, but the previous one wasn’t really that great anyway.
My concern with it is, with so many core functions being on the screen, what happens in the event of a systems failure? They’re putting a lot of trust in digital tech to be solely responsible for some pretty core vehicle functionality, and that’s where I think it was a bit shortsighted. I still like mine, but I also was not somebody who needed to be sold, it’s a brand I enjoy and I was probably buying one anyway. For someone who isn’t nuts like I am, it’s a much harder sell, and then, to your point, where’s the value against getting a CPO or used? Especially when the third gens are also very reliable cars longer term, the “new with a warranty” is not the selling point it used to be. Not to mention, they depreciate like rocks so a gently used example is usually pennies on the dollar.
Definitely appreciate that and glad it’s not coming across as “I’m right, you’re wrong” because that’s not the intent at all. Just offering perspective having now owned both gens.
I think their pursuit of Tesla actually makes a little bit of sense on paper. It pains me to say it, because I can’t stand them lol, but they have succeeded in quite a few areas. The difference is, MINI doesn’t have any kind of clout with the general public, who may be a little more receptive and are typically less resistant to changes. MINI only has clout within its existing circle of owners, who tend to be incredibly resistant to change and feel very strongly about their brand. So, I question who these changes and updates are for.
Technically, it is more in line with the minimalistic interior layout of the classic Mini, which is kind of what they were going for. The problem is, unlike then, a modern MINI is not a cheap car, and we aren’t living in 1970’s England. People are very used to BMW’s modern version of the brand, with options, features, etc. A bit more “extra” in a sense. So, what exactly is the point of trying to channel something from 40-50 years ago that doesn’t resonate with anybody. It’s an example of how MINI relies too much on its heritage and history, when 99% of its modern customers couldn’t give less of a fuck about it.
At my store, we more or less gave up trying to play up the heritage and history of the brand because, outside of the boomer service customer with a manual R50 first gen who’s never buying a new one anyway, nobody cares. You know what people do care about? Price and resale value, lack of standard features when compared to other cars on the market, safety, performance, utility and practicality, and cost and ease of maintenance. Guess how much of that MINI bothers to address or market and promote? Lol
>I think their pursuit of Tesla actually makes a little bit of sense on paper.
I can't disagree with it. I'm not the biggest fan of it, but I understand *why*. Mini isn't wholly popular for a large variety of reasons, but it does have a quirkiness to it. This comparison is a bit of a stretch, but Apple computers were, historically, never really seen as "business" tools and their minimalism was designed for ease-of-use. Nevertheless, they caught on with "quirkier" people (prior to the iPod/smartphone boom).
Tesla (arguably briefly or still is) tapped into that same ideology. Minimalism and ease-of-use.
>At my store, we more or less gave up trying to play up the heritage and history of the brand because, outside of the boomer service customer with a manual R50 first gen who’s never buying a new one anyway, nobody cares. You know what people do care about? Price and resale value, lack of standard features when compared to other cars on the market, safety, performance, utility and practicality, and cost and ease of maintenance. Guess how much of that MINI bothers to address or market and promote? Lol
Which is actually rather crazy because the BMW engines in them are incredibly reliable. I very nearly bought a last-gen JCW simply because it had the B48 in it. And from what I can tell, those JCWs still hold their value fairly well compared to other cars in that price range. Then again, it's the performance trim for a niche buyer in an already niche market of small cars (and I'm an anorak who looks into the engine/transmission a car has).
Personally, I loved how Mini was tying into their racing heritage with the JCW models, the red trim, stupid boy-racer looking things on them. I still want one at some point, but $40,000 for a front wheel drive hot hatch is steep - especially when the Golf GTI exists for less, the Elantra N exists for less, and the Honda Civic Type R isn't too much more above.
100% agree with you, it really comes down to, I think, who exactly they want to be. Do they want to go after the performance crowd? Do they want the tech people? Old school looking for a fun second car or weekend fun car? Entry-level luxury buyer? Yuppie people wanting something different than their neighbors? Brand die-hards?
The problem is, their answer at a corporate level has always been “yes” to the above. They try to be everything to everyone, and can’t focus on one thing to build strength upon. BMW can do it because they have the model range and versatility to do it. MINI doesn’t. They’re always going to be niche, no matter what they do. But, instead of trying to rebuild their own footing with the B-engines as a great selling point, they’ve tried to do all the things and, to your point about competition like the GTI or Elantra N, they’re competing against stuff with better performance figures, better brand identity and messaging, and more value for the money. Unless you’re, like I said, nuts like me and specifically looking at one, I can’t see where they’re getting tons of people off the street. When I was there, Countryman was the vast majority of non-previous owners coming in organically, and it’s one of the few models we see continuing growth year over year. Because it’s something people looking in that segment actually want.
Imo MINI is in a weird place. Everyone wants SUVs, but when you think about MINI you don't think of a CRV or pilot sized suv.
Mini also doesn't have the brand prestige of a Mercedes, bmw, etc.
People get past the looks. And not to mention the look has grown on lots of people. BMW arguably has the best cars out of Germany right now. Purely based off the engineering of the car itself. In performance sedans they are the best on market regardless of looks. Their suvs are incredible. Bmw has shown clear improvement and superior technology in ev platforms, making them best in the current market. Bmw has shown huge growth and improvement throughout all of their cars, I think that’s the reason why they are so successful now.
I just ended my 4 Series Grand Coupe lease a couple of weeks ago, traded in for an Ioniq 5. Loved the BMW but oddly not a material enough difference between the Hyundai to justify the +$700 a month lease payment.
A lot of chodes if I'm being 100% honest. This is a reflection of American individualism peaking. BMW knows their crowd well and has played right into their hands with their boaty gaudy new cars. "I'm better than you" in SUV, sedan, and coupe form. The only new car that doesn't seem to fit this mold is the Z4, which is fittingly one of their their least desirable models.
Bmw dudes are always the guys who got married at 18, go to the gym endlessly, and yet somehow the only person that will hang out with them is their wife because they are annoying ASF.
Please, tell me more about your theories on other people. https://www.reddit.com/r/Smilepleasse/comments/1hskh67/snl_is_going_to_hell_for_this/m5c3bt8/?context=3
I’m actually trying to get into NASCAR myself because the racing looks more fun to watch than your average F1 race, but the fanbase is indeed a barrier to entry.
typically older Millenials & GenXers who're pulling down $200k+ annually. The vast majority of these cars are leased so the monthlies are $600 to $1000.
Just looking at 3-series/4-series and its competition, BMW is currently the best choice I think among the Germans. Especially if you want a liftback, its either the 4 series GC or the A5/S5, and to be honest, compared to the new A5/S5, I think I would accept the 4 series pig snout and buy that.
BMW is also the only one of the big German 3 with an EV offering in that segment. Audi has no PHEVs either. They're handing entire swaths of the market to BMW.
It’s not there for the new gen. I guess they’ll make one eventually, but in the meantime people have to go with BMW or Merc if they want a PHEV in that segment.
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BMW covers all maintenance for the first three years of purchase, so a lot of people who buy them and only have them for a few years will pay nothing for maintenance.
Oil changes are pretty much all you need to do after that three years, and oil changes are only marginally more expensive on a BMW than any other car if you have a good independent shop. If you're taking it to the dealer, that's your fault lol
How is buying an objectively good car that has pretty good reliability, stand out Styling, great Performance, fantastic luxury, brand appeal, customer service, etc mean you have so little self respect?
This headline is a little misleading. Using he period instead of the comma makes it look like they sold 371 cars last year which confsued me how it was a record.
The wealth disparity has never been greater. People are either struggling to pay rent and buy food, or buying so many Porsche GT3s that they're sold out for 2 years, or buying 700k ferraris and 4 million dollar Aston Martins.
This is a joke: Proof that the US has become more filled with assholes. We suspected it based on our politics, now we know. ;)
This is half of an old joke: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?
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