Is this current bird flu stuff mostly hype?

[-]

ladyangua@reddit

We won't really know the answer until it's over but I'd rather authorities take it seriously and be wrong than ignore it and not be prepared.

[-]

They are. Lots of other people aren’t. Just as with Covid, they spread myths, rumors, succumb to paranoia, spread ignorance, rely on their own arrogance, exhibit denial and greed, which will prevent the advice and warnings of experts from being believed, or followed.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/bird-flu-where-we-are-now-and-what-to-know-about-prevention

On a scale of 1, “unconcerned”, to 10, “oops! The pandemic is here”, most scientists who study influenza, vaccines and pandemics are at a 5-6-7. Very concerned and growing ever more so, each day.

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/are-we-cusp-major-bird-flu-outbreak

[-]

ladyangua@reddit

I fully believed those on the coal-face are taking it seriously. The ones pulling the purse strings and signing off on policy are the worry.

[-]

GeorgeKaplanIsReal@reddit

Considering the change of hands in early 2025, we’re in trouble / repeat of 2020.

[-]

Never_A_Sheep@reddit

😂😂😂

[-]

cnsrshp_is_teerany@reddit

So you prefer a Covid repeat?

“Trust the science” huh?

It’s like you learned nothing at all the last 4 years…

[-]

ladyangua@reddit

I'm not sure that your answer aligns with my comment but one thing you might want to consider is that my country's response to covid was different to what you experienced. Therefore yes, I do trust the science., trusting the science saved tens of thousands of lives.

[-]

cnsrshp_is_teerany@reddit

Apparently you haven’t been keeping up with reality.

Have you not read the list of 1900 + side effects of the experimental mRNA gene therapies?

Why do you passively accept myocarditis & heart attacks in children is “normal” now ?

How about the over 20million excess deaths since the roll out of the experimental mRNA gene therapies?

How does one get to the point of trusting the largest (documented and found guilty)perpetrators of criminal fraud in human history when they say they “care” about you?

The only thing those shots saved was drug companies bottom lines…

[-]

ladyangua@reddit

I think you are the one who needs a good dose of reality. See ya

[-]

ladymatic111@reddit

I’d rather authorities didn’t shut down the country and infringe on my rights again.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

Genuinely curious what rights you believe were infringed upon?

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Travel, association, many people lost jobs and business closed down, children's right to an education was removed and many kids will never catch up and spend their lives 3-5 years behind in terms of education, social development, and income, right to bodily autonomy as many people were required to get experimental medications, some of which we now know were ineffective and some could be harmful. Lost wages, education, friendships, and irreplaceable time are pretty significant things to have infringed.

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

You don't have a right to a job, no one said you couldn't travel, it was just advised against, you don't have the right to an education, and there were still plenty of ways for a child to get an education, I know many who still had school, even if it was distance learning, no one forced you to get a jab, but bodily autonomy is also not a right, if it was then a large portion of laws would be unconstitutional, lost wages-again not a right, education-not a right and if your child didn't get an education then that's on you because there were plenty of options, even in rural and inner city areas, friendships-amazingly also not a right, and if you couldn't maintain a friendship through the lock down then that is a n you problem because myself and millions of others maintained friendships, irreplaceable time-surprisingly also not a right! You have things you are complaining about, but I still don't see any rights that were violated.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Lockdowns outlawed peaceable assembly outright. The rest I've already replied to in other replies, but in short, rights were infringed on. (Bodily autonomy is a right, btw; if it wasn't, violating Informed Consent wouldn't be legally classified as assault. Abortion is a weird corner case, but forced vaccinations and lockdowns are clear violations of rights).

And as I said, education was pushed back years. This is a question scientists have been studying and the general estimate is that children lost years of development and education they can never get back. It's like kids that came of age right when the Great Recession hit that were slammed back 5 years minimum in lifetime achievement and stuff like being able to start families and buy homes, some more than that.

Do you truly not care that's happened to children, who were never at much of any risk from Covid anyway? Or do you dispute it's happened?

And grandparents that have died you can't just "maintain". It's not a ME problem that my grandmother died and we were barely allowed to see her, mate.

It's not you don't see any rights that were violated. It's you don't want to admit that any rights were violated because that damages your ideology and worldview. That's a very different thing.

Again:

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

There were no forced vaccinations.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

I see you contested nothing else.

Also: Incorrect, but I'm not going to bother arguing the point. You won't believe it/will redefine "forced" no matter what, and don't care that informed consent was violated.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

You're the one being creative calling vaccinations forced.

You're being intentionally misleading and accusing me of redefining a word for calling it out.

Were you forced to be vaccinated? I wasn't.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

No, I'm not.

Some people were forced to get vaccinated. Some have WON LAWSUITS over it, so the courts agreed with them.

And I'll note again: You contested no other point I made, meaning you at least somewhat concede that I'm correct some rights were compromised/infringed.

You're now engaging in an ad hominem attack to further attempt to avoid a good faith discussion.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

Are lawsuits that result in a way that doesn't support your personal opinion also valid evidence? Or is it only evidence if you like it.

I didn't read your wall of text, which is why I'd dint respond to each and every lie in it. I saw an obviously false claim and pointed it out.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Okay, I'm tired of this silliness.

.

In the end, here's the thing:

I oppose authoritarianism.

I support it when you were lied to that it would make you safer. Folks like that support sacrificing other people's rights for their own convenience. And everyone knows that SOUNDS really bad, so everyone who holds that view lies about it and insists it did all this good that it didn't, or otherwise justify it as not "really rights" or the like.

In the end, it cannot be justified. It cannot be defended. And minor deflections like "not really rights" or "only a minor infringement" or "well, it could be legal sometimes (even though the courts ruled it was not legal this time)" can't cover for that.

.

As I said way up above:

I don't even mind people defending/arguing that it was necessary. And I'm shocked people can't just do that.

I have issue with people saying it was not a breach of rights.

Don't lie about it. Own it. At least that can be justified. "You're damn right it was infringing your rights; I think your rights SHOULD have been infringed there so people like me didn't have to be inconvenienced."

That position is disagreeable, but it's honest, and I can at least appreciate that honesty. I just wish more folks in your camp could be honest about it.

That you guys attempt to justify it shows even you probably realize it was wrong and just can't come to terms with having wrongly supported the very thing you know and generally stand against: Authoritarianism. You NEED it to be justified so you don't have to mentally grapple with that reality.

.

Anyway, done arguing about it. It's stupid, it always was, and folks can't be honest about the reality of it and what evil authoritarianism they supported. And will live their lives never being able to admit it, which is really sad.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

So you weren't forced to be vaccinated.

Not so tough to admit. No need to lie.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

No, but be wrong.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

So you were forced to be vaccinated?

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

Bodily autonomy is not a right, though, and there were no laws put into place that outlawed assembly. You also don't have a right to an education. No one forced you to take the vaccine. You're being upset over a bunch of things that aren't rights claiming that your rights were violated. The only right that was in any way infringed was assembly. You're acting like you're getting salty, but again, you've only named 2 rightbthat was infringed upon.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Except it is.

Again: Is informed consent a legal requirement or is it not? If it is, then that is bodily autonomy.

"there were no laws put into place" there were, in fact, some laws put into place. But that is also irrelevant as rights being infringed by court or executive order are still rights infringed. And some people were forced, either under duress (job loss - duress violates informed consent, btw), or outright by physical force (the military) to do so. So that's also something you're wrong on, you can't use it as a point in your favor.

And again:

It's a hell of a goalpost shift to go from "no rights were infringed" to "well, some were infringed but it was legal" to "well, no LAWS were passed so it's not really infringement" to "well, it was only 1 right anyway, who cares?"

I'm becoming a broken record, but again again:

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

Laws pertaining to things like informed consent do not make them rights. We have a list of rights, they're in the constitution. If it's not there it's not a right, it's a social ordinance(societal laws). Employers have the legal backing to require certain things of employees, and you have a choice to follow along or not work there. Again, you weren't forced. You had a choice. You don't understand what a right is apparently, a conclusion based upon your arguments in this thread. When there are restrictions put upon an actual right for a valid societal reason that's not an infringement. You need to go back to school and take a few civics classes because you apparently need a refresher. Again, you've only named 1 actual right that was infringed upon, and a bunch of shit to whine about because you want it to be a right, but it's not. As far as the dod/military requirements to receive the jab you need to actually read the regulations to see why the courts struck them down, instead of just using the fact that they were struck down as validation. The reason you're becoming a broken record I'd because you obviously don't understand the factuality, or lack thereof, of your arguments.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

So any right not listed in the Constitution is not a right?

Is that your argument?

I want to make sure before I demolish it that THAT is what you are arguing.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

If it's not listed in the constitution it's not a right, it's a societal ordinance. There's a difference, but you'd have an understanding of basic government to understand that. Just because laws allow something or apply restrictions to something doesn't make it a right.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - Declaration of Independence, not Constitution. So we do not have a right to life or liberty?

Habeus Corpus is also technically not in the Constitution directly.

A right to vote is not listed in the Constitution.

Freedom from religion (and arguably freedom of religion) are not listed in the Constitution.

The right to marriage is also not listed in the Constitution.

.

Are you CERTAIN that only things listed in the Constitution are rights? So you're saying we do not have a right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, voting, or marriage in this country, among other things?

.

I don't think I'm the ignorant or uneducated one with a lack of "understanding of basic government" here. I think you are.

As if you had an understanding of "basic government", you'd know we have rights in the United States of America that are not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. A lot of them, actually:

https://constitutionus.com/constitution/rights/what-enumerated-and-unenumerated-rights-does-an-american-have/

"Enumerated vs Unenumerated Rights

In the United States, enumerated rights are written down in the constitution, especially in the first eight amendments. People in the United States also have unenumerated rights, which are not written down in the constitution but are still legally relevant.

The S Court makes decisions based on unwritten rights and what is written in the constitution. Unenumerated (unwritten) rights include the right to travel, privacy, autonomy, dignity, and the right to have an abortion."

While you can argue the interpretation of these shifts, there is the standing precedent. We also have Common Law.

These things are all rights.

.

You have been proven wrong.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

Again, you're wrong. Any advanced civics class would prove it to you. The bill of rights are amendments to the constitution(holy shit! Recognize that word?) You know what else is given to certain people? The RIGHT to vote, also an amendment to the constitution. Again you're giving out societal ordinances and claiming they're rights, when they're not.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/comments/1hpgyxz/comment/m4n1c0t/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Hahaha!

MAN, you are dedicated to being wrong, I'll give you that.

No, they aren't "societal ordinances". The phrase is "unenumerated rights". Which, as the name may give away, are rights, per the 9th Amendment to the Constitution itself, which says they are rights.

Have a good one, mate. I admire your stubbornness, but you need to learn someday to to throw the white flag when you've been clearly shown to be wrong instead of stubbornly clinging to being wrong.

Insulting the education or understanding of the other person who actually is factually right doesn't help and only makes you look worse anyway.

But I don't want to hammer ya. I don't enjoy that sort of thing. I HOPE someday you realize you're wrong and why it's important to not be so freely supportive of authoritarianism.

But until then, I sincerely hope you have a great and healthy life, friend. o/

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

Ok, unenumerated rights are things we decide as a society that we're allowed to do. That's the definition of a societal ordinance. You're so invested in being wrong that you don't even realize that you're wrong. All of your arguments are easily undone by anyone with a high school level understanding of government, and most of your arguments can be undone by a 5th grader. I'm not wrong your understanding is just too low to realize that you are wrong, or you just can't admit the fact to yourself, much less anyone else, that you actually don't understand what you're talking about.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

No, they are not "things we decide as a society that we're allowed to do". They are rights.

And my guy, you just said Amendments don't count so things like voting rights (note the term, "voting RIGHTS") and First Amendment rights...aren't rights.

So what ARE rights?

And stop with the smug "you're stupid/uneducated". It's just sad at this point you think that's helping you.

What are rights?

Be specific and give me your definition. "What is found in the Constitution" you said before, but now you're saying "except not Amendments (despite them being part of the Constitution), those don't count".

Okay, so what rights DO count?

Give me an example of the RIGHTS from "the Constitution", but NOT "Amendments", that you think we have.

Give me a list of some of the rights we have that you believe are rights, and where in the Constitution, that is not the Amendments, that they are listed.

Surely you can do this, yes?

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

I never said the amendments don't count. You're showing your ignorance again, or maybe this is a lack of reading comprehension this time? I'll try and make this simple for you.

The declaration of independence is not a legal document. It's a basis and outline from which our government was established. And while it says we have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it doesn't actually bestow any rights. Our government does that through laws and regulations.

Enumerated rights are rights specifically listed, in this case, what is in the constitution.

Unenumerated rights, what the 9th amendment talks about, are rights that are not defined in the constitution.

A right, most simply, is either power or privilege in which we are justly due.

Just- Conforming to a standard of correctness or with what is morally right.

A social ordinance is a law, regulation, or group thereof, enacted to protect or infringe upon actions or thoughts in which a society deems is just.

Now, just because a society deems something as just doesn't mean it actually is. We've seen this throughout history. Slavery, child marriage, racial exploitation(ie. Chinese railroad labor), Japanese internment camps, there's been a lot throughout the years.

Ok, so these unenumerated rights you keep going on about, these are the ones that we, as a society, have deemed we have or don't have because we deem them just or injust, via interpretation from the Supreme Court, or local and state ordinance(ie. marijuana legalization, or constitutional carry). Just because we deem them just doesn't mean that they are(see statement above). Now, since they're rights that we, as a society, have deemed just or injust, and given or denied to us, that makes them a societal ordinance.

Now, I'm to bed, goodnight.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

I'll also leave this one here for you: https://system.uslegal.com/u-s-constitution/the-ninth-amendment/

The Ninth Amendment states, “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” This means that the rights citizens are not limited by those listed in the Constitution.

The CONSTITUTION ITSELF says you are wrong that only the rights specifically stated in the Constitution are rights.

The Constitution ITSELF says you are wrong here. The very document you're appealing to for authority is saying you are wrong.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

And again, you're trying to pass off societal ordinances ad rights when they're not.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Uh...no.

Hahaha!

No.

My gosh...you are a stubborn one, I'll give you that.

Have a good life, friend. Haha! o/

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

You can call them rights all you want to, but they're not, you're unfortunately not educated enough to understand.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/comments/1hpgyxz/comment/m4n1c0t/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Haha!

You REALLY shouldn't call people not educated when they're more educated on the topic than you are by a good measure and are factually right and have proven you are factually wrong.

Have a good one, man. o/

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

Also, if your child didn't get am education during covid then that's on you because options were available.

[-]

Dmc1968a@reddit

Distance learning for children was complete garbage.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Exactly.

The preliminary research on this is suggesting children are 2-5 years behind in education and social development, and may well be for life, due to the lockdowns and school closures.

[-]

tskee2@reddit

The right to eat at Applebees and kill grandma in the process. It’s a well-known constitutional amendment.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

I have a lot of acquaintances on the right and I've heard them all say this bs about having their rights taken away or infringed upon during covid, but not one of them has yet to tell me what rights they believe were being taken away or infringed upon.

[-]

Dmc1968a@reddit

Well, the right to speak your peace online without being censored. Or your right to work without a jab.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

Lmfao neither of those are rights.

A platform removing your comment for breaking their terms of service is not government censorship.

Companies can require vaccinations of employees if they want. If those companies want to contract with the federal government, they have to follow government rules. No rights infringed on there.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

You don't have a right to work

[-]

jp85213@reddit

The right to be a self-centered asshole in public.

[-]

a_wascally_wabbit@reddit

Also if your "rights" effect mine then we gonna have a bad time. I have the right not to be infected by some god awful disease because you are to stupid to take it seriously. Learn some fucking science that doesn't come from Newsmax or OAN

[-]

RenThras@reddit

You don't have the right to lock other people up. You have the right to lock yourself in your home, not to lock everyone else in so you can feel better.

[-]

a_wascally_wabbit@reddit

When you are part of society you play by societies rules.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

We have rules in this society that explicitly say you CAN'T do those things.

You and your vote brigaders can be wrong together, but your posts make no sense and are how authoritarianism is given power.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

You idiots are going to lose your minds when you find out there’s a suspension clause in the constitution that suspends Habeas Corpus. Even more so when you discover that Congress and the executive branch have enacted it three times within our borders in our history.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Martial law.

There are reasons it's almost never enacted and EVERY time it is, it's challenged in the legal system and widely unpopular.

The problem is, we're arguing two different things, and doing so differently:

1) What should be (ethics) vs what is legal.

2) What rights are vs when they can be legally suspended.

That a thing can be suspended doesn't outright mean it isn't a right. It may mean the suspension is unethical and in some cases probably SHOULDN'T be legal; more than a few cases that "allow" for suspension of rights were not written in the Constitution but have been decided through courts over the years, often with courts allowing it at the time but later decisions reversing it saying the decision was made in the heat of the moment but wrong - like the "fire in a crowded building" thing was actually not about that at all, but was about free speech to print and spread anti-war pamphlets during WW1. Since the war was going, the courts ruled in favor of the government. This was later partially overturned (with the Justice that wrote the "fire in a crowded building" line saying he was wrong and the case wasn't even about that), then later completely over turned. Sup Court has even ruled since then to completely throw out the case as wrongly decided during the heat of the moment for government expedience in war, but today, you CAN produce anti-war pamphlets (and yell fire in a crowded building; you're just liable for any harm if there ISN'T actually a fire) and spread them and that IS protected speech.

Additionally, your rights to things end when they infringe on your neighbor's rights. Further, when there is a clash between two sets of rights, the typical court rules are "least harm".

It harms you less for me to not be locked down than it harms me to be locked down. If you feel your immune system is compromised or fear getting a disease, you can voluntarily keep yourself home. But if you lock everyone else down so you can go about your life, you're taking far more from them. Meanwhile, them not being locked down isn't inherently causing you any harm at all, as you aren't 100% likely to contract disease from them (and to a point, you're ALWAYS potentially contracting diseases; you weren't allowed to lock people down before covid even though you could catch or give the cold or flu to anyone all those prior years, and the flu does kill people), but if you lock them down, they are 100% likely to lose their jobs, income, and lifestyle.

So court rules would ultimately be that you have no right to lock others down for your own perception of safety, and they have a right to NOT be locked down.

You also don't have a right to "clean air" since air is a shared resource (you can buy a SCBA or SCUBA system and air pressurization/refill system personally, if you choose).

The idea before 2020 that people were entitled to the "right" of other people being locked up to prevent you being exposed to a disease would have been absurd.

And it's absurd now, too, I think. Because it's impossible. Just by going outside your home, you are exposed to diseases, even if you were the only Human allowed outside, or the only Human on Earth. It's an impossible ask.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

False.

The publictook precautions during Spanish flu of the 20s as well. The primary ones being masks and distancing. People would literally beat your ass for coming near them without a mask.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

lol, but no.

It's also hilarious you think that.

I also said lockdowns, not masking. That's a goalpost move on your part.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

I was responding to your claim about where ones rights end at telling others what to do.

And yes, they did beat their neighbors asses for boarding a bus with no mask. Learn your history instead of plugging your ears. Only thing I got wrong was it was 1918 not 1920.

People were arrested and/or fined for not wearing a mask in public during the Spanish flu. And yes, when an officer wasn't there to deal with it people took it upon themselves to fuck the person up for endangering them and their families. In Oakland nearly 500 people were arrested for no mask in one day. An officer arrested his own father for no mask same year. A repeat offender served 30 days in one instance. Officers took this ordinance very seriously, as did the majority of people.

Sorry, historical facts don't care about ignorant feelings.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

You realize "beating their neighbors" that way would be assault and a crime, right?

Court cases also went both ways then - there was an attempt to appeal to that era's rulings for precedents but it failed, meaning modern courts did not agree.

People aren't endangering you not wearing a mask. Masks are not force fields. They are not SCBA/SCUBAs. They increase your exposure time before reaching a given viral load. In short, if you cannot go somewhere unmasked, you cannot go there masked. It's like arguing you can't go into a nuclear area without protective clothing but you can go there indefinitely in protective clothing. You can't. The protection only gives you LIMITED protection, meaning your body is still being harmed, it's just being harmed slightly slower to give you a bit more time (and then the clothing can be removed and decontaminated so you're less likely to spread contamination outside, which is the bigger deal).

Masks just don't have as big of an effect there; cloth masks are only \~2% effective (FOR COVID, because covid uses tiny aerosol particles that are much smaller than cloth weaves). Meaning if you could be in an area 10 minutes unmasked, you can be in that same area for 10 minutes and TWELVE EXTRA SECONDS wearing a cloth mask.

There were, btw, studies done to show this after the pandemic, and we already knew it from existing science before the pandemic. And for reference, surgical masks are \~20% (12 minutes, so 2 extra minutes). N95s are 95% effective...but ONLY if you're wearing that fitted (has to be properly fitted), very tightly sinched outer sealing device. The one where nurses would have literal impression lines on their cheeks after wearing them because that's how they have to be worn to prevent anything seeping around the edges.

Facts don't care about ignorant feelings is correct. But you're mistaken about who is ignorant here...

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

Yup, I realize it's a crime. And that it happened. You were either ignorant of that fact or lied by claiming it didn't happen.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

You're the one using crimes as support for your viewpoint's validity... /shrug

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

So were you ignorant, or lying?

[-]

RenThras@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/comments/1hpgyxz/comment/m50tb7v/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and just say ignorant, but you're also posting lies about forced vaccinations.

So I'll have to go with liar.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

No, but be wrong.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

No what? It's one or the other.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

Martial Law and the Suspension Clause are not the same thing.

Also, I love how you cite a few cases to make it seem like you’re logical/ethical, and then you just go into wild, biased assumptions about what courts would rule as “least harm.”

I’m done responding to you, as every time you touch the keyboard you insist on showing the world your asshole. Starting with your original reply to my original comment where you called the Covid vaccines “experimental and ineffective” - causing the mods to remove your post.

You are not arguing in good faith. You are not a serious person with serious opinions. You are a blight on modern society and to those of us who want a better world.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Okay, I'm done.

This is just pointless and you're constantly about insulting or attacking me personally instead of presenting an argument or offering a good faith rebuttal to anything.

Just stop.

Or don't, I don't care. I'm not replying anymore to this string. Next time don't act in such bad faith, maybe. It's just insufferable.

[-]

a_wascally_wabbit@reddit

No...... it's the part after where they don't give it back you resist, not the beginning. I personally like what we have built and if something is going to wipe us out, you are a stupid moron not to prevent it. I bet you are the type that would say the plague wasn't so bad.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Setting aside that I disagree - once tyrants have gained power, you're already too late - let's pretend I agree:

When is that?

When 2 weeks to flatten the curve is over? 2 months? 6 months? A year?

Covid wasn't a threat TO SOCIETY. That was never a realistic appraisal, even given the data we had at the time.

[-]

Tytoalba2@reddit

Prison abolitionist I suppose?

[-]

ladymatic111@reddit

You don’t have a right to demand other people take any measures for you to avoid an intention. If you believe you have a right to deprive me of my rights, we are going to have a violent kinetic interaction.

[-]

Loud_Ad3666@reddit

People got the shit kicked out of them by the rest of the town for not wearing a mask during the Spanish flu of the 20s.

You lack historical context and general logic.

[-]

a_wascally_wabbit@reddit

If you belong to society yes we do. Good luck with that "kinetic" interaction lol

[-]

RenThras@reddit

A society that also recognizes you don't have the right to do what was done to people, actually.

You can't appeal to the social compact while violating the social compact.

[-]

Dmc1968a@reddit

A manufactured disease from a lab in Wuhan.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

It was a global health crisis. But you turds couldn’t be bothered with the slightest of inconveniences for the least of your peers.

The entire planet was contending with a brand new virus, and the people who’ve hardly ever felt oppression in their lives literally compared it to the holocaust.

People with disabilities and health conditions have been an afterthought for decades. When we finally implemented some policies that made everyone safer - especially the aforementioned and those who couldn’t afford it - you babies cried tyranny.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

"2 weeks to flatten the curve"

"entire nation shut down for AT LEAST 2 months EVERYWHERE other than Florida, people were required in many cases to get experimental injections which we now know were ineffective and potentially harmful, many people died apart from loved ones, couldn't attend funerals to say goodbye, and children withheld from school or forced to digital classes for 2+ years are now 3-5 years behind in education, social development, and likely lifetime functionality; and this is just the short list"

You: "You couldn't be bothered with the slightest of inconveniences".

Maybe you should reconsider your threshold of "slight inconvenience".

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

To quote the original person I’ve been arguing with: “strawman” at least in terms of I never said people’s rights weren’t infringed upon.

Absolutely the things you mentioned are more than a slight inconvenience. However, people like the person I replied to were fighting tooth and nail against any measure, regardless of efficacy or inconvenience, under the guise of tyranny, from the start.

And just so you know, I had an extremely rare tumor removed in march of 2020. Like, 1 in 2-3 million rare while I’m in my 30s. The day of my operation they changed policies and told my wife at the door she couldn’t come in.

I was by myself for a day and a half at the scariest movement of our lives. Was it a massive inconvenience? Absolutely. Do I 100 percent understand why they did it? Absolutely. Did I cry “Tyranny!” No, because I a fucking adult who understands when we have to make decisions for the greater good.

Plus, I was now in the class of people this country has forgotten about: the sick and handicapped. And it did make a lot of people look like silly little b-words with what were minor inconveniences.

For months after I didn’t feel right and had some minor complications. And because of all the politicization of that time, friends and family literally laughed at how vigilant and cautious I was with my health.

So fuck you and your comment about by threshold.

I’m not trying to gatekeep the suffering of covid. But I wish people would stop acting like the policies that were implemented was just a fucking dry run for a massive dictatorial takeover by states and politicians who were actually responding to a new virus on our planet. Because they come across as ignorant or willfully obtuse.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

The thing is, we now KNOW there were overreaches during the pandemic AND that they infringed on people in ways that were not slight or minor inconveniences.

To me, what the medical profession should have done was admit like the UK one did that they overstepped, that the power went to their heads, and they were going to enact polices - and be clear on what those are - to ensure they never do it again. On the vaccinations, emergency authorization, whether or not to do lockdowns, the whole nine yards. The 6 foot rule NEVER had any scientific backing! This is now openly admitted. I think even Fauci has admitted it.

The medical community needs to take steps just to regain trust, and they haven't even bothered, instead pretending if they don't say anything, people will just trust them again and forget all about it.

Meanwhile, we have a generation of parents not giving their children ANY vaccinations because they no longer trust the medical profession, and the profession has done exactly ZERO to regain or show they're worthy of trust.

.

Now, kindly be respectful and civil, please.

u/flortny , this post goes to you as well.

Also, pretty sure wishing death on people is...not good either.

[-]

flortny@reddit

Do you wany sentient apes to survive? We need about 4 billion less, or we all die by 2100, really really simple concept.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

That makes zero sense on any level using any remotely accurate appraisal mechanism that we have.

[-]

flortny@reddit

Earth has a carrying capacity between 2-4 billion people....but even 4-5 billion immediately leaving would still kill us all because of the aerosol effect....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity#:~:text=Recent%20estimates%20of%20Earth%27s%20carrying,to%20solve%20collective%20action%20problems.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

That's ridiculous. We're not anywhere near the limit of what we can provide for people in terms of food and resources. 2-4 billion is just stupidly low, and probably set by the same misanthropic people that want a mass culling of Humans.

The issue we have today, and the only reason we have shortages and starvation and the like, is due to geop-olitical boundaries and policies (e.g. regional leaders/warlords controlling food supplies in large portions of Africa).

We have the technology and arable land to provide for this many people easily, it's more a question of cooperation and efficient distribution.

I don't think this capacity is unlimited, but consider how much waste food there is in the US alone. I remember working at a Walmart years ago and seeing how much food just the chicken area threw away each night. One day I asked why they don't just give it to a local homeless shelter or food bank, since the company could use it as a tax write-off and do something good with what's otherwise going to waste, and they said the reason they do not is they would get sued if anyone ever got sick from it, damaging the company, so they just chunk it all instead.

We'd probably be able to feed the whole US homeless population by just taking the food stores and restaurants throw out at night, and it'd be them eating better/more expensive foods than they likely get from shelters. There is zero reason anyone in the US is starving today other than the legal system.

Does that apply to the entire world? I suspect it does to a similar level.

Besides which, what's your solution?

The nations most likely to willingly reduce their populations are already the ones with negative/sub-replacement population growth.

Africa, India, China, and Indonesia are the places with mass growth, with a lesser secondary level of growth in south and central America and the ME.

EU (including Rus, I believe) is projected for negative growth (to the point their leaders are trying to push geopol-itical as a "solution" to what you're saying isn't even a PROBLEM, per se...which then leads to people believing in so-called "replacement theory" under the logic of "So you want us to breed less, but are fine with them breeding more and then moving here to have a larger share of our population and resources, complete with more demo-cratic power", which does seem a nonsensical "answer" to what either is a problem - in which case the native population needs to be encouraged to have more children - or isn't a problem - in which case needs to stop being pitched as a "solution" to a non-problem).

I'm not sure the logic to any of this makes sense. It's not self-consistent.

[-]

flortny@reddit

Bub, all the food waste is still from overshoot production, we use 1.8 earths annually....we have usually consumed all of the replenishable resources by August.

[-]

flortny@reddit

You realize all our fertilizer comes from natural gas, natural sources of phosphorus and potassium are running out. All your typing doesn't change the fact our population is unsustainable.

Just science, i don't see a single link in your screed....

https://www.footprintnetwork.org/2024/07/21/earth_overshoot_day_2024/

https://time.com/6300968/earth-overshoot-day-global-resources/

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2023/08/earth-overshoot-day-human-consumption-biocapacity-ecological-footprint/

[-]

flortny@reddit

How do "they" not understand that the governments of the world reacted to covid like ANY MILDLY CIVILIZED SOCIETY WOULD. Do you like civilization? Electricity? Grocery stores? We could definitely use less elderly in this country, however, luckily covid only had a 2% mortality rate. H5N1 has an estimated 30-60% mortality rate, so i am personally excited for you all to downplay it right into the grave, you know what dead people don't do? Vote

[-]

somekindofhat@reddit

"we could definitely use less elderly in this country"

You got a list of demographic groups you'd like to see less of, or just the elderly?

[-]

flortny@reddit

The elderly living longer while not contributing is one of the principal drivers of our economic problems, housing market, healthcare costs etc

[-]

ladymatic111@reddit

My rights were absolutely trampled. Freedom of movement? Travel? Assembly? Liberty? Speech? Get fucked entirely.

[-]

preppers-ModTeam@reddit

If you have questions or concerns about your submission, post, or comment being removed, please contact the mod team using modmail, via the "Message the Mods" button on desktop browsers, or using the Message Moderators option from the Action Menu (3 dots button) in the upper right corner of the mobile app when viewing the subreddit. Please do not argue the action or post commentary in other posts or comments.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

lol. Right along with everyone else’s.

You and your ilk are the ones pretending it only happened to you, and that it was for no reason other than to civilly violate people.

Seriously, your privilege is showing.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

"No rights were infringed."

"Yes, they were."

"lmao cry harder, everyone's were, that makes it okay!"

.

No one said only their rights were infringed or it only happened to them. Good god, your privilege is showing.

You're not even responding to people's arguments or the questions being discussed. You're just introducing unrelated ridicule and changing the topic to something you think your argument can actually win (it doesn't, btw), and getting upvotes from...I don't even know who would upvote such a bad faith post, honestly. They should feel embarrassed, but they won't. And no, you attempting to turn that around will also be incivil and trollish.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

Go through all of my replies.

Where did I ever say no one’s rights were infringed upon?

Over and over I acknowledged they were.

You just didn’t like that I called it a minor inconvenience.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

"But you turds couldn’t be bothered with the slightest of inconveniences for the least of your peers."

I replied to that.

Where in my post (-14 downvotes at present) suggest you said anything about rights? I took issue with you saying people were upset over mere slight inconveniences.

Most people WEREN'T fighting against "any measure". Recall at the start, with the first 2 weeks (honestly, for the first 2 months), ALMOST everyone went along with it. "2 weeks to flatten the curve" sounded reasonable, and people, even people that would later become extremely skeptical, were uncertain and scared. I know a guy now who will never wear a mask or get any vaccines again, but even he took it super seriously the first 3 weeks. There were mass toilet paper shortages. A month in, you could tell what foods no one ever buys because they were the only things on the store shelves at WalMart (that canned baby puke mushed pee stuff).

It was after it appeared that government and various voices high on their own power were not ever letting it go that people started rebelling. Like Fauci initially told us all we didn't need masks, then later said he lied so that there wouldn't be a mask shortage while promoting everyone wearing masks. In the UK, after the pandemic ended, their health profession made a semi-public apology admitting that basically the power went to their heads and they lorded it over people, issuing edicts because they could with force of law without normal voting oversight.

Many bad decisions in Human history were justified as "for the greater good". That's never not a dangerous argument. And people opposing it aren't not being "adults". Don't insult people so freely whose points are as valid as your own.

And again, you said the quote above, then you say this, "Absolutely the things you mentioned are more than a slight inconvenience", but then you say this, "And it did make a lot of people look like silly little b-words with what were minor inconveniences".

Can you at least be consistent on whether it was a minor inconvenience or a slight inconvenience or actually NOT a slight inconvenience?

And my lord, that "f--- you" was uncalled for. I've neither said nor done anything to deserve that.

I made my first comment in good faith, and it was reasonable and respectful, as has been this one.

Again:

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

I was responding to your edit.

If you read my messages and thought I wasn’t implying “it was worth it” then I don’t know what to tell you.

Your last messaged just wreaks of ignorance.

Of course the messaging changed throughout the pandemic. It’s almost like things continued to evolve and progress - including our knowledge about a new virus on our planet and how we should protect people.

Also, the two weeks to flatten the curve was immediately when people started losing their shit. You know how I know that? Because we never really flattened the curve. Progress was made, but seven states never shutdown, and the country failed to ramp up testing. And the states that did close saw protests from Ya’ll-Qaeda pretty quickly. Also, the reasoning behind flattening the curve was to slow the spread and prevent our hospitals and care centers from being overwhelmed. Not to kill the virus so things would go back to normal.

On February 24, 2020, the top CDC official for respiratory diseases warned that “disruption to everyday life might be severe.” The actual experts - who should’ve been the voices on high - were sidelined in place of people like Jared Kushner and Mike Pence, who downplayed what actual medical professionals were saying.

And as far as Fauci is concerned, I have a lot issues with how he handled COVID. But I have even more problems with the fucking idiot president presiding over him who sewed division and doubt at every corner, and lied more times than Fauci could in his lifetime, including saying it would disappear.

Of course awful things have been done under the guise of the greater good. But if you think covid measures were equal to or greater than actual atrocities, then you’re a fucking idiot. And the people who were trying to take advantage of the situation were fucking obvious to a bunch of us. The petulant, children-like adults in this country who couldn’t be bothered to be inconvenienced were the ones who couldn’t spot the charlatans.

By the end of 2020 there were 350,000 deaths in the U.S. alone. You keep bringing up people who were inconvenienced or had their rights violated. You think those 350,000 people would trade places with you and all of your poor pals who suffered under such sweeping tyranny?

I don’t care that you’re being respectful. I’d give you respect if I wasn’t met with such violent ignorance. Ignorance that got people killed.

[-]

preppers-ModTeam@reddit

"experimental injections which we now know were ineffective and potentially harmful"

Your submission has been removed for breaking our rules on civility, trolling, or otherwise excessively hostile.

If you want to message the moderators of r/preppers for further information, please use this link: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/preppers

[-]

RenThras@reddit

u/preppers-ModTeam

""experimental injections which we now know were ineffective and potentially harmful"

Your submission has been removed for breaking our rules on civility, trolling, or otherwise excessively hostile.

If you want to message the moderators of r/preppers for further information, please use this link: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/preppers"

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to clarify. Particularly since I was being incivil in my posts (replies to me were, however), trolling (again, replies to me were), nor being "excessively hostile".

How is saying that we know injections, which at the time were under experimental use authorization (thus "experimental injections" would be an accurate descriptor) were ineffective and potentially harmful violate civility? It's not trolling, as the statement was factual. And it wasn't hostile in any way.

It seems someone reported my posts, but they reported them for the wrong things. ESPECIALLY given many of the responses to me WERE trolling and violations of civility, and I see that they were still in place, even having been reported.

I feel like something is wrong with either your reporting system or how you are resolving the reports in this thread...

[-]

HazMatsMan@reddit

If you suspect brigading, please contact the mod team with details so we know what to look for and where to look.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Then my other message got deleted and I got told to send a message and then got a "second warning" for the first warning.

And got a completely separate message saying there was no evidence of brigading with no explanation for why my first post was wrongly flagged and removed.

I'm just really confused now.

[-]

preppers-ModTeam@reddit

If you have questions or concerns about your submission, post, or comment being removed, please contact the mod team using modmail, via the "Message the Mods" button on desktop browsers, or using the Message Moderators option from the Action Menu (3 dots button) in the upper right corner of the mobile app when viewing the subreddit. Please do not argue the action or post commentary in other posts or comments.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

I sent a message, but basically that deleted post. Granted, it's been deleted so I'm not sure what all was in it, but it was apparently reported for incivility or trolling or excessive hostility, none of which are present in my posts in general, nor from what I can still see of that one.

And given how many hostile replies _I_ was on the receiving end of, as well as mass downvotes, that seems like a pretty clear marker of brigading. People mass downvoting (possibly using multiple users from the same person) and mass reporting leads to post being flagged for rule violations that don't apply to them and don't make sense.

So I did send that message as well as make this post.

[-]

preppers-ModTeam@reddit

If you have questions or concerns about your submission, post, or comment being removed, please contact the mod team using modmail, via the "Message the Mods" button on desktop browsers, or using the Message Moderators option from the Action Menu (3 dots button) in the upper right corner of the mobile app when viewing the subreddit. Please do not argue the action or post commentary in other posts or comments.

[-]

bubby11241@reddit

Ahh yes. Masking and the made up social distancing really helped. Don't forget wearing a mask until seated at a restaurant.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

Masking and social distancing literally worked. If you don’t want to acknowledge science, be my guest.

The restaurant shit was stupid as fuck, though.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Social distancing was not supported by any science. Dr. Fauci stated this himself a few months ago.

As far as we know, social distancing did not work, literally or otherwise. It's not "acknowledge science", there IS NO SCIENCE (and certainly wasn't when the policy was enacted) for social distancing.

The best you could try to do is appeal to the 1/r\^2 rule, but that doesn't apply to everything.

And yeah, the restaurant thing was just abjectly dumb. That's the part that felt like the people in power were just screwing with us to see who would be the lemmings obeying every order, no matter how nonsensical.

[-]

bubby11241@reddit

Yup, those cloth masks which were worn for days at a time were so effective at stopping the world's deadliest virus. Let's not forget the one way grocery store aisles lol.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

It’s almost like we should’ve been more prepared.

[-]

bubby11241@reddit

Best of luck if there's another one!

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

I just hope someone is there to explain all of this to you again during the next one.

[-]

Dmc1968a@reddit

What policies?

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6949e2.htm

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

What rights of yours were infringed on? That sucks for you, the rights outlined in the 250-y/o doc written by white men who barred women and POC from the room remained intact here where I live.

[-]

ladymatic111@reddit

White men founded this country for white people. It was much better when they ran the place, too.

[-]

preppers-ModTeam@reddit

Any post or comment that promotes Racism/Bigotry/Hate against an individual or a group will be removed by the moderators. Mods also reserve the option of banning users who they feel flagrantly violate this rule.

[-]

rynnenotthebird@reddit

Ahh, not just a bumbling idiot...also a racist.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Education (children are behind by literally years), free association and assembly, in some cases free speech, bodily autonomy (you care about that for abortion, yeah? So you must care about being dictated to get injections against your will of still experimental medications that, it turns out, were often ineffective and sometimes harmful), just for the short list.

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

Education isn’t a right. And no one was physically forced to take a shot, that’s why it’s not like abortion, because those women are physically forced to bear a child. Sure there were consequences on not taking the shot, but it wasn’t bodily autonomy. Still waiting for that evil vaccine to kill all those people… or whatever it was gonna do.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Uh...military personnel were forced. I still remember a disturbing video of a service member (I think it was Navy by the PT shorts/t-shirt they were holding him in) that they had confined to either quarters or a brig, then had five men rush in, hold him down, and by force they injected him with the vaccine. While that was the most egregious, others were held in confinement and kicked out of the military with dishonorable or other than honorable (which is still pretty bad; can't even work at McDonald's for the rest of your life, it's that bad) discharges.

So some people WERE, in fact, physically forced to take a shot against their will. That was Orwellian and I cannot see anyone in good conscience or good faith defending it since that violates the legal and medical ethics principle of Informed Consent. Blatantly and indefensibly. Legally, that is assault and an absolute crime, and ethically destructive to the medical profession and on par with war crimes/Human experimentation in terms of unethical and evil.

So it is, in fact, like abortion (worse, actually), not that you likely care.

So yes, it was, in fact, bodily autonomy.

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

Lol no way that happened, or send me the video... But yes. Military member had to take it because we need the military to be combat ready and the most protected they can be from viruses. That really shouldn’t be a hard concept. Notice how they’re all still fine?

But yes, people should not be held down and injected with things against their will. That is obvious. But that was not what happened for Covid. So no. Not the same. Not worse.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Wish I could show you. YouTube took it down. You can refuse to believe it, but I found it disturbing when I watched it, so you get to live in bliss believing it didn't happen.

The vaccines didn't make people combat ready. As we now know, the vaccines didn't reduce contraction or spread, it reduced symptoms, but only in some people - and you're justifying it. The military ISN'T required to take experimental vaccines. You do know the S Court ruled in favor of the military members contesting it, right?

That really shouldn't be a hard concept.

And no, they aren't all still fine: https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/11/army-surgeon-says-military-ignored-her-warnings-over-covid-19-vaccine-injuries/

“After I reported to my command my concerns that in one morning I had to ground three out of three pilots due to vaccine injuries, the next day my patients were canceled, my charts were pulled for review, and I was told I would not be seeing acute patients anymore, just healthy pilots there for their flight physical,” she said, according to AL.com.

.

You can believe what you want to believe, but your arguments aren't just wrong on principle - you're justifying totalitarianism and wanton violation of Human rights, which is at the least unethical - it's not even FACTUAL. You're wrong on the facts themselves that underpin what are already really dubious arguments.

You CAN believe as you wish, but you're wrong.

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

Education and bodily autonomy aren't covered in the Constitution.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

You didn't ask "What rights - covered in the Constitution specifically - were infringed on?"

I answered the question you asked, not a question you want to switch to when your initial question was answered proving you wrong.

You also didn't ask "What rights - by the passage of a law - were infringed on?"

That's like saying the incoming Pres could outlaw free speech by Executive Order, but since it's not a law passed by Congress, it wouldn't be an infringement of the right of free speech somehow.

That makes no sense.

And you ignored peaceably assembly, which was outright restricted by lockdowns, which WERE through laws being passed in some states/jurisdictions. So even with your far more limited NEW questions, those rights were infringed upon.

.

Again:

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

Dmc1968a@reddit

Move if your woke culture agenda does not sync with the constitution.

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

What rights?

[-]

ladymatic111@reddit

The ones I’m fully willing to defend with violence. 😘

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

Would be cooler if you actually named a right you thought was infringed upon. But I think you’re close to the right idea. The only rights you have are the ones the government decides you have at any given time. It’s all about who can and will enforce them. So no, no one infringed on your rights last time because you don’t really have any.

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

The right for people assemble peaceably is literally in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which was summarily suspended without any process. I realize not everyone has the luxury of that document, but make no mistake, rights were trampled during the COVID regime.

The fact that you're thrilled to death for the government to do your thinking for you doesn't change that.

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

Naw you missed my point. I’m just saying, realistically, you don’t have any rights if you have no entity or way to enforce them. We theoretically have rights, but a lot of them are vague and trampled often. Stop expecting the government and a piece of paper from the late 1700’s to save you let alone matter when anything of a certain magnitude happens.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

I think there are two problems with this argument, one practical and one conceptual:

1) IF this is true, it's a strong argument for people to use violence, which is a dangerous scenario to set up. "You have no rights unless you're willing to use force" also implies you can use force for ANYTHING you WANT to be a right (e.g. not paying taxes) as if you succeed, then you have a "right" now. It's basically encouraging people to use violence and go to war with government...basically all the time. "Government says you don't have a right", "Don't go to court, go to the gun store!". That's not a way to have a functional society, so on just a practical level it's a bad principle to set up.

2) It carries the argument that rights do not exist. Which invalidates the entire discussion. You can't make the argument "None of your rights were taken away" while ALSO effectively stating that "Rights do not exist". "only on paper" is the same as saying "do not exist" for all practical purposes.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Exactly!

My god, what is with these upvote/downvotes?

More than that, what is with people being so willing - in a forum for preppers - to support government suspension of individual liberties? That's half the reason some people prep in the first place!

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

Congress shall make no law respecting the right of the people to peacefully assemble

What law was made?

Or do you only prefer a literal interpretation when it suits you?

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

People were arrested and fined during lockdowns just for being in public places, places of worship were closed, businesses arbitrarily were deemed essential or non-essential.

So clearly legal sanctions were being brought against citizens for assembling in public.

Or do you only prefer a literal interpretation when it suits you?

No i prefer this interpretation just fine. Because what you're not understanding, with all your arrogance, is that it's worded that way to make it clear it's the highest law of the land, and no local or state government can supercede it.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

Today I learned State’s Rights aren’t a thing.

Someone tell the GOP!

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

Today I learned State’s Rights aren’t a thing.

Silly strawman

No one said they weren't, they just can't supercede the Constitution.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

I love it when you dopes think the constitution and bill of rights are these things that never get infringed upon - or suspended - until it happens to you.

People’s rights are violated daily in this nation for reasons far less meritless than a global pandemic. But when policies were put in place to protect the vulnerable - some of which literally only required you to wear a piece of fabric over part of your face - oh my goodness! The tyranny!

The funny thing is, you were finally on equal footing as a lot of other people in this nation when it came to your rights being violated, and it was being done temporarily for public health and safety.

And a bunch of white men finally got a taste of what it feels like to not be in control of your own body or rights and you lost your shit.

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

I love it when you dopes think the constitution and bill of rights are these things that never get infringed upon - or suspended - until it happens to you.

Another flimsy strawman. No one said they don't get infringed upon, simply that they shouldn't.

And a bunch of white men finally got a taste of what it feels like to not be in control of your own body or rights and you lost your shit.

What on Earth are you talking about? You clearly have some deep seated issues, and a big ax to grind in other ways.

[-]

Just-Groshing-You@reddit

“They shouldn’t.” But they do, far more often and for far less meaningful reasons/benefits than public health.

So forgive me if I don’t take you seriously if you think the measures our country took during COVID are equal to or greater than the infringements that occur on a daily basis for reasons that have no benefit to others.

Also, the country never shutdown. Seven states never locked down at all. Sorry about all the strawman arguments. But your first comment was disingenuous.

My comment about white men did come from left field. My apologies.

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

📠

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

I missed the part where you pointed to a law congress passed? Because that's what the first amendment forbids, remember.

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

You're still not understanding the point I'm making. Congress doesn't have to pass a law in order for your 1st amendment rights to be violated, any local law enforcement can do it.

Pay attention now, it's worded in that specific way to make it clear that this is the highest law of the land.

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

You're reading an awful lot into what's been written. Are you a constitutional scholar? I'm happy to hear about how you've arrived at this interesting interpretation, but I'll definitely need the full analysis and textual support for the somewhat bizarre interpretation you're advocating.

[-]

Bothyourmoms@reddit

Well, I guess you should prepare yourself since the president during covid is going to be the president during the next pandemic also.

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

Yup and it went so well last time lol

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Assembly, sometimes speech, bodily autonomy. Let's start with those.

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

AlternativeLack1954@reddit

I’m not saying there were not infringements I’m saying, there are no rights. Like being surprised the government did a thing that affected you is wild. Thinking that “having rights” would stop them from doing what they perceive is in their best interests is wild. If the government needs to do something that “infringes on your rights” they will, and they’ll listen to you complain about it after. But in that moment, just like most moments. You don’t really have rights. It’s just a nice idea.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Peaceable assembly is an explicitly numerated right.

Bodily autonomy is an implicit right generally supported by the Courts in almost all cases (abortion is weird because it directly impacts what the legal system somewhat considers a second Human life - and no, not getting a vaccine doesn't hold that same thing since not getting a vaccine isn't guaranteed to terminate the other party's life, and the covid vaccinations, it turns out, didn't actually reduce spread, they reduced severity if YOU contracted it), and it's also fundamental to the medical concept of Informed Consent, and why things like Human experimentation (forced, e.g. like the WW2 Germans and Japanese did to POWs) is all highly illegal. All that would be legal if bodily autonomy was not a recognized right.

Oh,, I absolutely agree the government/elites WILL infringe on people's rights if they decide to.

...that doesn't mean they didn't infringe on rights.

And it CERTAINLY doesn't mean people should justify or support them doing so. Your last sentences it's kind of shocking to me that you got upvoted for saying.

[-]

brabs2@reddit

Ooh we've got a hard knock here

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Assembly, bodily autonomy, sometimes speech, education (for children), freedom of movement, I can go on, but let's start with those.

I can understand making the argument "it was worth it".

I cannot understand anyone in good faith making the argument there were no infringements.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

No laws were enacted that infringed upon your freedom of assembly, which the amendment says "Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people peaceably to assemble," where was the infringement, even the Supreme Court has ruled that assembly can be restricted if necessary, you don't have a right to bodily autonomy, when and how was your freedom of speech infringed, children don't have a right to an education, no one stopped you from going anywhere, you were free to move about as you desired, as well as drive wherever you wanted, and you could even fly places if you wanted.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Lockdowns were enacted - you can parse whether they were laws or emergency orders/executive orders, but they were enacted and people could be fined (and in some places jailed) - so yes, that was infringed.

You guys are trying to parse the argument now. The quest was "What rights?" not "What specific Constitutional rights were infringed specifically by the passage of a new law?"

You can argue the S Court has ruled it is allowed, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be an infringement of a right, just that it's one that is legally allowed.

So if you want to ask a different question, ask a different question.

If you want to justify the infringements, then make that argument.

But that wasn't the question asked, thus it was not the answer given.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

You haven't named any rights that were infringed upon except for the right to assemble, amd we've already come to the conclusion that under certain circumstances it can be infringed upon, and during covid that was one of the circumstances. You all like to argue that your rights were trampled upon but then can't actually name any rights except assembly.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

I have.

And we did not come to that conclusion. You presented evidence that legally it could be infringed, not that doing so wasn't an infringement, nor did you present evidence that the courts conclusively determined that covid was one of those circumstances (some courts ruled otherwise, and S Court has sided with some of those rulings, such as finding that mandatory military and DoD contractor vaccine requirements were not legal and had to be reversed).

I named several - more than just assembly - you just don't want to listen because it damages your worldview.

I also want to point out the goalpost move going from "no rights were infringed" to "well, a right was infringed, but it was only one" to "well, a right was infringed, but some courts said it was okay" is one HELL of a shift to make without admitting you made it or your original position was wrong...

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

When it falls under already established case law it's not an infringement, and you've only named 1 right. None of the other stuff you named was a right, but you can't admit or accept that.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

No, it is an infringement. It's just an allowed infringement.

It's like saying "When killing someone is allowed under self-defense, it's not killing someone". No, it's not MURDER, it's still killing.

I've named more than one, you're just pretending the others don't exist.

And again: Goalpost move from "no rights" to "but it's legal to restrict rights" to "only 1 right anyway" is a HUGE goalpost move.

.

ONCE AGAIN:

You can argue that infringements were necessary or justified if you wish. It's NOT a good argument, but you can do so.

But you cannot argue there were no infringements. Even now you're admitting that AT LEAST ONE RIGHT was, in fact, infringed, defeating your original argument.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

It wasn't an actual infringement, you're just too stupid or uneducated to understand apparently.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

And there we have the insults.

So I take it you realize you're wrong and lost the argument? That's normally when people start with the insults. Instead of "Okay, you have a point and I was wrong about a few things. Here's my more limited statement..." it's "No, you're wrong on this one thing, so I'm going to insist I'm right, also, you're stupid".

It's like a 5 year old's level of "argument". "I'm right", "Okay, you're not right about EVERYthing", "Okay, maybe you are, but I won't say so, and also, you're a stupidhead".

Given that:

I...think we're done here.

Farewell.

[-]

EarthsfireBT@reddit

I'm not wrong, you're just repeating yourself and your incorrect arguments over and over. I'm just tired of speaking to a brick wall that has less understanding of government, laws, regulations, and rights than the average 3rd grader. It's the exact same thing with every single person I've ever talked to that keeps saying that our rights were infringed upon. None of you have had a valid argument or been able to display any knowledge of what a right actually is. There's no point in speaking to you because you've already made up your mind without any actual evidence to back up your claims, and refuse to acknowledge that you're incorrect. That's by definition stupidity.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/comments/1hpgyxz/comment/m4n0bq2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Except I'm not...

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

The amount of downvotes is insane. I'm flabbergasted that so many people are happy to line up and have the government crack down on them again with measures that ultimately did nothing. Yes people, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

It is truly wild.

I have a discussion here where the guy was arguing that only things listed in the Constitution were rights, then when I pointed out the 9th Amendment says otherwise (those rights not clearly listed still exist and belong to the people), said that amendments don't count either, these are "social ordinances", not rights, and I pointed out the First Amendment (which he had said WERE rights) were also amendments, and basically that the argument doesn't even make sense and isn't correct, legally or otherwise, and the poster also said rights don't exist and only the government has the power to give them and can take them away.

And folks were upvoting those posts.

I never thought I'd see a prepper forum that supports "government should be able to have indefinite power to suspend rights" is definitely not a take I ever thought would be getting the upvotes in a forum on prepping...

Like, who are these people and, more boggling, who are the people upvoting them and downvoting us? o.O

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

Oh my. There's a lot for you to learn, but first you have to unlearn all the things you've been brainwashed to believe. I'll help, if you want.

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

Projection

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

I understand that's what it feels like.

Here's a test: can you sit for a few minutes in my reality? Can you immerse yourself in the picture I'm painting? How does your body react? Is your heart rate increasing? Are you feeling a pit in your stomach? That's cortisol and adrenaline. Let them surge and pass. It's just a mental exercise, and there's no threat. Try to lengthen the amount of time you spend in this alternate state of mind. Try to observe, without taking a side.

Everyone should do this. It'll help you see how much of what you're experiencing is emotional, and how much is logical.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Uh...I suspect this isn't making the point you think it is.

You're going to have to lay out what "your reality" is here for the sake of argument, but people like me do this all the time. There's no surge or adrenaline. That's not how a sober mind like mine treats thought experiments.

...is it how yours does?

I'm not sure that's healthy...

[-]

Shooter-__-McGavin@reddit

Rhetorical nonsense

[-]

What_do_now_24@reddit

What's actual rhetorical nonsense is having a conversation with you about this stuff. You say "muh rights!", then it's shown you had every right to move about in the country. You say 'wut about muh churchs and stores', to which they say stores were open and you could gather with your cult outside. Then you say 'but i'm inkonvienced' , to which they say sure, but can't we all agree that keeping people (and the economy) safe is more important?

Then finally you say "Its AlL a HoaX" and that's your checkmate move because nobody will dissuade you from that break with reality, rendering all subsequent and previous arguments completely MOOT.

When you start from an illogical fear-based point of view, the world is your oyster because you mold and shape it to fit your narrative.

May the odds be ever in your favor.

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

Words are all we have, friend

[-]

Cultivate_a_Rose@reddit

I’m just so astounded that this sub is… well, if you trust the government you ain’t prepping for the right thing.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Same. Looking at the upvotes/downvotes on these things, where the people saying (a) rights being infringed is fine if the government says so and (b) they aren't rights anyway are getting mass upvoted.

That's just wild to me to see.

Like, I have known a few irl preppers, and there are a lot online, and "government should be able to have indefinite power to suspend rights" is definitely not a take I ever thought would be getting the upvotes in a forum on prepping...

[-]

Junior_Wrap_2896@reddit

Wtf

[-]

Positive_Lychee404@reddit

If your rights were infringed why didn't you win in court about it?

Fucking baby.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

You do realize people DID challenge things like lockdowns and vaccine requirements and HAVE won in court, right?

[-]

Positive_Lychee404@reddit

I was asking that dingdong specifically, but yes there are always bad court rulings on the record, especially in such a large and sprawling court system as the US'.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Maybe. But I don't think your argument is solid here.

I've never had an issue with people saying infringements and impositions were necessary in their view - I think that's an argument worth having.

I have issue with people saying there were NO infringements or impositions, as that's factually wrong.

[-]

Positive_Lychee404@reddit

What rights were infringed?

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Peaceable assembly (lockdowns), bodily autonomy (vaccine mandates; even duress like "or you'll lose your job" violates informed consent and makes injections assault by law), to name just a few.

[-]

Dmc1968a@reddit

We are winning in court now.

[-]

Positive_Lychee404@reddit

No you're not.

[-]

Dmc1968a@reddit

Ah, go read the real news, we definitely are.

[-]

preppers-ModTeam@reddit

Your submission has been removed for violating our Post Quality standards. We do not allow submissions involving unverifiable claims about fringe/junk science or conspiracies (chemtrails, aliens, reptilians, Illuminati, etc). Zombie apocalypse-type posts are also not permitted. All information need to conform to the known laws of science.

Feel free to contact the moderators if you would like clarification on the removal reason.

[-]

DarthPanda024@reddit

👶

[-]

a_wascally_wabbit@reddit

With the knuckle dragger you elected you won't even have those lol

[-]

theroguehero@reddit

Oh buzz off

[-]

tskee2@reddit

The problem with this situations is that they’re never “over”, so we never “know”. H5N1 is very likely to be permanently in the global mammalian population. We’ll never be able to say, “it didn’t spillover and become a pandemic”. The best we can say is, “it hasn’t spilled over and become a pandemic yet.”

I’m not trying to fear monger. It may never transmit efficiently human to human and may never become a pandemic, but it’s also never going away as a possibility at this point, unfortunately.

[-]

cnsrshp_is_teerany@reddit

H1n1 is endemic and has been for DECADES

[-]

RenThras@reddit

It's like Covid. At this point, it's endemic...hopefully in a mild and non-lethal form, but we're basically stuck with these things once they're out in the wild. Very few things can we really eradicate. It's sort of that old "Pandemic" game (where the joke is Madagascar is always safe). Sooner or later, once it's out, there's no putting the evils back into Pandora's Box. The Genie is loose and can't even be forced back in, just dealt with as best as you can.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

u/ladyangua

Dude blocked me so I can't even reply. All I can see is they said something about me "minimizing covid". Covid ended 4 years ago as the mass pandemic, and saying it's now a baseline disease we're stuck with isn't "minimizing" it, and I didn't even mention the bird flu, which I can see they mentioned, but can't see the rest of their post.

What is with people like that?

u/CasanovaPreen, blocking people when they're making good faith discussion because you want to interpret them saying things they aren't to justify you silencing them isn't rational or defensible. If you're going to make arguments, make them. But making a post then blocking the person so they can't respond is what someone does when they think their argument is losing and their worldview/ideology may be in error and don't want that to be exposed, not when they're having a good faith discussion.

[-]

Temporary_Map_4233@reddit

WHO says we are still in the COVID pandemic. It’s killing 1,000 Americans a week during peak times. The “end” of the pandemic was manufactured consent

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Also, so you know: \~500-1,000 deaths per week is also what the flu kills in the United States if you take the yearly number (generally 30k-50k) and divide that by week. So it's lower during non-flu season and higher during flu season/peak times.

That is, the flu is also killing this many people every year, and has for decades.

have we been in a flu pandemic for decades solid with no reprieve?

Should we be calling the flu a pandemic that is ongoing and has been for years?

[-]

RenThras@reddit

To be fair, WHO has not been particularly accurate at any point in recent memory relating to the pandemic.

[-]

Temporary_Map_4233@reddit

How so?

[-]

CasanovaPreen@reddit

Endemic implies regional…If we’re seeing global spread — how can it be endemic?

[-]

ladyangua@reddit

It is endemic within multiple regions, I don't think there is a better word for it.

[-]

CasanovaPreen@reddit

…within almost every region.

As for places where COVID is present — neither its levels amongst populations nor its mutations are predictable and controlled. It doesn’t fit criteria for being classified as endemic.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

Basically it's a new permanent fixture of the disease presence more or less everywhere in all the regions we Humans are active in (and possibly some we are not).

If you prefer a different word, by all means, use it, but at least I hope you get my point: We're basically stuck with it now. Thankfully, it's in a far less deadly form than the initial waves and mutations.

[-]

CasanovaPreen@reddit

Endemic is not correct here…and your phrasing is minimizing.

Neither COVID nor H5N1 should be spoken about in such a blasé way. COVID is still killing and disabling millions — and it has also caused widespread worker shortages and strains on hospitals.

[-]

Gizzard_83@reddit

Hm. I’ve never gotten a covid shot and I’ve had covid. I’m pretty blasé about that one. We’ll see on this bird flu hype …

[-]

m1straal@reddit

It’s not minimizing anything; it’s actually recognizing how much of a presence it is in our lives now. The flu also kills and disables people en masse every year, and there have been at least several flu pandemics that have been absolutely devastating in terms of the death toll. Every year we roll the dice.

[-]

ladyangua@reddit

Mate, the experts are calling it endemic. You are just being pernickety at this point.

[-]

Upstairs-Parsley3151@reddit

The problem with it, is that it mutates way faster than Covid.

[-]

rynnenotthebird@reddit

My IQ dropped 27 points reading this comment thread...

[-]

ladyangua@reddit

Mine too.

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

Very true!

[-]

saint_davidsonian@reddit

Any new disease that crosses species should be considered a major threat.

[-]

HappyAnimalCracker@reddit

Agree. The “Let ‘er rip” model stinks.

[-]

cnsrshp_is_teerany@reddit

Is there evidence of human to human transmission….no

Is there a high fatality rate among those who were infected…no

Is the current media blitz a direct repeat of the pre-Covid media fear campaign…yes

Have they been conducting gain of function research on h1n1 for decades…yes

Do they already have an mRNA for bird flu in wait…yes

It’s all hype…for now. But what are they hyping up for?

[-]

smemilyp@reddit

I just had a medical procedure and as part of the intake questions, they asked if I'd been around any farm animals like cows or chickens. I confirmed it was a be question, because if H5N1.

It's crossed a line for them to ask that of every patient.

[-]

CasanovaPreen@reddit

U/Gizzard_83 …probably because you haven’t done much research on it. There are over 400,000 studies on COVID causing widespread organ damage — even from mild infections. I’d recommend reading some studies on it.

[-]

Gizzard_83@reddit

huh, guess you’re going to overlook my very real personal experience? Hey, if you want to live in fear .. I by no means will try to convince you otherwise.

[-]

CasanovaPreen@reddit

It is always odd seeing people on a prepper sub put faith in elites and profiteers.

[-]

Emotional-Yam-2050@reddit

My family and I are farmers mostly in the cattle industry. Unfortunately on the farm we’re pretty worried about the bird flu, especially now since we heard that a cat food was positive for the bird flu virus. With the cats at the sanctuary also dying from it, dairy cows, (I can’t remember correctly) a pig contracted the bird flu virus itself in October 30th of this year. I heard pigs can also get human flu virus as well. Whether or not it will spread into humans is unknown, in my opinion it could. I honestly don’t know how homesteaders are able to keep their flock safe as I’ve been wanting to start owning chickens myself.

I would say to just keep your eyes out for anything that comes up.

[-]

WasteMenu78@reddit

We won’t really know how deadly it is until there is widespread infection. However, COVID had a relatively low case fatality rate and yet it killed a million Americans. It overwhelmed our hospitals and many people died from treatable conditions due to delayed healthcare access.

[-]

Jlp800@reddit

I think this is what a lot of people forget or ignore. Even a 1-2% death rate of the population amounts to a huge number of overall deaths. Imagine something with a 5%-10% mortality rate hitting the human population. That’s 400-800 million people.

It doesn’t take much to overrun systems.

[-]

hoardac@reddit

This was the whole reason for masks, isolation orders and minimal crowds. If you completely overwhelm the hospitals it just snowballs into a bigger shitshow for the nation as a whole.

[-]

Jlp800@reddit

Yep! Yet every paranoid person tried to say it was about “control.” I worry when/if something worse happens, they’ll be a lot of disillusioned and uninformed/misinformed people.

[-]

hoardac@reddit

The selfishness was a real eyeopener for me. I figured people would band together and suck it up. I did not like it anymore than anyone else but we did it. People got their lives sacrificed for piss poor reasons, people should have been ashamed but they doubled down on it. It is troubling and has us better prepared for nonsense if it happens again.

[-]

nunyabizz62@reddit

Pure propaganda

[-]

Gritty_Grits@reddit

The thing about the bird flu that makes it unpredictable is that the virus mutates. It may mutate into being less contagious or deadly at some point, however, according to the latest from the CDC, “The genetic analysis of the H5N1 avian flu virus in specimens from the nation’s first severely ill hospitalized patient in Louisiana reveals mutations that may enable upper-airway infection and greater transmission…” Currently risk remains low.

[-]

smellswhenwet@reddit

Patient also had other health issues

[-]

Gritty_Grits@reddit

Yes, I did read that. For the bulk of us the risk is low but not for the unfortunate immunocompromised.

[-]

Jose_De_Munck@reddit

There is a HUGE effort to project another 2020. I doubt we will see it anytime soon. Tedros has to be prosecuted, as well as the other members of the gang. The cover up was so big that Big Pharma is going to face huge losses in the next 20 years, and they know it.

[-]

CasanovaPreen@reddit

@ladyangua Experts? No…Many experts specifically do not classify COVID as endemic.

In a prepper sub of all places, it should be obvious how government organizations often minimize risk in order to protect capitalistic interests and profit…and you’re playing right into their hand.

[-]

iridescent-shimmer@reddit

As a side note, are there any foreign government public health agencies that people follow for timely information? I doubt the CDC will be able to say or do much after this January, so I'm looking for better sources to stay informed.

[-]

HappyAnimalCracker@reddit

Dr Michael Osterholm at CIDRAP is a good source. He has a podcast too.

Also Dr Helen Branswell, STAT’s infectious disease reporter. You can follow her on Bluesky or visit STAT’s webpage.

[-]

iridescent-shimmer@reddit

thank you for the rec!

[-]

HappyAnimalCracker@reddit

You bet!

I recommend listening to 3 recent episodes (Oct 31, November 14, and Dec 5) of the Osterholm Update, in chronological order for insight on how things could unfold.

[-]

_Erindera_@reddit

Followed! Thank you!

[-]

PaxPacifica2025@reddit

I've been following this subreddit--lots of solid info and references to other science to follow: https://www.reddit.com/r/H5N1_AvianFlu/

Stay safe out there, and prep for when you aren't :D

[-]

iridescent-shimmer@reddit

Okay awesome! I've joined that sub too. Hopefully, better news sources communicate consistently once the US gives up its role in that regard.

[-]

penelope5674@reddit

The most important thing to look for is if it passes from human to human and how easy the transmission is

[-]

penelope5674@reddit

I just checked the cdc website and it said “No person-to-person spread of H5 bird flu has been detected.“ so I think we are ok for now

[-]

Stage4davideric@reddit

Flu mutates very quickly. The Spanish flu wiped out a third of Europe, any virus can be dangerous if it mutates enough. Particularly in areas where it will “stew around” in the community for awhile or when people take half the doses of their antiviral meds and make the virus stronger.

[-]

Status-Shock-880@reddit

Backyard chickens can catch it from wild birds. Then, of course, you could catch it from the chickens. That gave me pause.

[-]

ZealousidealDegree4@reddit

Late to the discussion but will offer that we can totally handle aerosolized virus protection with distancing etc. the same risky populations (among them, the boneheads). I predict more frequent viral culls.

[-]

Spiley_spile@reddit

There are different clades of bird flu. Some are extremely dead. Some much less so. The problem is that even if a less deadly version makes the jump, it can combine with other, more dangerous varients, helping them make the species jump. The best thing we can do for ourselves and each other is to not get sick with any varient.

[-]

Iwentthatway@reddit

Yeah, that big cat sanctuary was heartbreaking :(

[-]

Conscious-Ad-7040@reddit

What about the Sea Lions in Peru? Almost 3,500 dead now. Crazy.

[-]

Iwentthatway@reddit

I hadn’t heard of that. JFC. More nightmare fuel

[-]

Conscious-Ad-7040@reddit

Ooops. It’s 24,000 now.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893924000267#:~:text=More%20than%205000%20sea%20lions,virus%20%5B8%2C9%5D.

[-]

Spiley_spile@reddit

It really was. Recently, I read about a house cat in Oregon that ate bird flu-infected cat food and died. What a nightmare. :'(

[-]

NotPalagiPuka@reddit

It can’t just be cats though right… presumably dogs are as equally susceptible?

[-]

tinfoil_panties@reddit

There isn't a lot of data but my understanding is that dogs have been found with antibodies (such as hunting dogs that interact with waterfowl) but I have not heard of any deaths in canines, so that suggests that it is less deadly.

[-]

HappyAnimalCracker@reddit

With the very limited data to go by so far, dogs appear to be somewhat less susceptible, though they can get it. Cats and ferrets appear to be more susceptible.

[-]

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

Not sure why you think that. Different diseases affect different animals differently.

[-]

BroadButterscotch349@reddit

This is what I'm doing as well. My girl is 15. I take my shoes off in the garage and spray with Lysol. I keep them up away from her until they're dry and then they go in my shoe cabinet. I change my clothes and wash my hands before I touch her. Thankfully, I never stopped masking and everyone at home is fully vaxxed so I'm hoping that helps too. Her supervised visits to the backyard were already on hold due to cold temps but I talked to my family and we agreed that they're suspended indefinitely now because we have lots of birds that visit. Hoping your girl stays safe and enjoys a long life!

[-]

alriclofgar@reddit

It’s a real danger, and we won’t know how bad it’ll be until it happens.

Flu is never a safe disease, but sometimes it’s a devastating pandemic (like 1919).

This could be the next big one. It also might not be!

In terms of my own prepping, I think it’s one of the more likely emergencies to happen. So I’m making sure I’ve got enough n95s and all the extra nonperishable food I might need if we have to bug in for a bit if we get lockdowns again.

[-]

asmodeuskraemer@reddit

How many masks did you get? I just bought 50 and I'm thinking that'll last me (I live alone) for a while but I'm not really sure

[-]

P4intsplatter@reddit

Not OOP, but I have about 100 (family of 2) "nice" N95s. However, they're just there in case things get really bad. A cloth mask, despite not being 100% as effective as the "medical grade" N95 is actually my daily/shopping/work mask.

Right now, you can buy a lot of them, even customize them, and wash them after daily use. IF another pandemic hits, their cost will go through the roof, you will not be able to return anything to vendors (doesn't fit, crappy fabric, etc). So I'm actually recommending all my family and friends stock up on fabric masks for daily use if there's another pandemic, and saving the N95s for walking through sick zones, being near immunocompromised, or having an infection in the home.

If more people wore cloth masks when they were normal sick (all the non-bird flu stuff) we'd be so much better off. There are some dirty motherfuckers walking around coughing on people this season because "it's just the sniffles". I saw a guy cough in his sleeve, and then use that sleeve to wipe the skin of an apple in a grocery store, before putting the apple back. Seriously?I really wish cloth masks were more normalized.

[-]

Jetpack_Attack@reddit

I lived in Japan for a while and I got used to their masking culture. Super smart.

They often mask for other reasons too.

I definitely got sick less and come COVID, it was funny to see all the refusal to mask.

[-]

xamott@reddit

By cloth you mean a regular surgical mask?

[-]

P4intsplatter@reddit

The ones you'd buy from Pandemic artisans. It's double layered, usually a certain thread count for fabric. Elastic bands for behind the ears.

Because there were so many shitty ones out there (or poorly constructed ones), buying now allows you to be discerning and send back or call out bad product. I had to send a few back during the Pandemic because the fabric wasn't as tight a weave as advertised.

[-]

TheRealPrincessZeIda@reddit

something like a kn95 mask is generally very cheap, and has much higher efficacy than a cloth mask. even surgical masks perform better than a cloth mask. they do not trap particles and aerosols the same way that medical masks do and there is no seal at all, which makes them useless for airborne diseases like covid and h5n1. i would not recommend wearing a cloth mask if you are looking to be actually protected

[-]

P4intsplatter@reddit

Correct. I'm not wearing the '95s for daily protection, it's actually more to prevent spread. I work in schools, and despite being able to afford k95s, I wear a cloth one when I get sick to model for students and prevent others from catching. I just wish that behavior was normalized.

[-]

TheRealPrincessZeIda@reddit

sure, but the protection works both ways. the ways that a cloth mask isn’t protecting you are the same ways it’s not protecting other people when you are sick and wearing one. if you are actually sick wearing a kn95 will protect MUCH better than a cloth, again even two survivals is better than cloth! the electrostatic charge in the mask will actually catch your germs, cloth masks don’t have enough layers/tech in them to do this

[-]

DisastrousHyena3534@reddit

I got a case of 440 for a family of 6

[-]

alriclofgar@reddit

It turns out I’ve got about 100 leftover from work (teacher, at the time) in 2021, which is plenty imo.

[-]

nanfanpancam@reddit

Depends on so many factors. During Covid my husband had to go to work so he also did the grocery shopping etc. I did walk the dogs everyday but stayed away from people, to be honest there weren’t that many out. I didn’t use many masks at all.

[-]

localdisastergay@reddit

Don’t forget cleaning supplies along with the food and masks, seems like there’s a greater potential for transmission via surfaces than covid

[-]

xamott@reddit

What makes it seem that way? Airborne is airborne no?

[-]

temerairevm@reddit

The conventional wisdom about viruses before covid was that transmission was mostly surfaces and that was based on our (then) understanding of the flu.

That turned out not to be the case with Covid (you can probably get it both ways but it’s very airborne) and I think the thinking has evolved on the flu to think it’s probably more airborne transmission than we previously thought.

But the truth is it’s very hard to differentiate between modes of transmission and say which one it was that infected someone. There were just these crazy cases with covid with the people singing (who I believe aggressively hand sanitized) and people on busses who weren’t seated anywhere near one another, so scientists figured it out.

At this point with flu I think you’d want to assume that both modes of transmission are in play.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

The one plus side to our whole world being ABJECTLY STUPID with Covid is we've learned some useful stuff since.

For example, those plexiglass barriers everywhere? TERRIBLE idea and made Covid transmission worse by blocking airflow. On the other hand, OPEN air flow and AC systems were actually very good at stopping spread because the HEPA filters are apparently really good at filtering it, which is why the barriers were so bad, they disrupted airflow and the HEPA effectiveness.

[-]

Shilo788@reddit

I always by bleach and Lysol in quantity.

[-]

Shilo788@reddit

My dad and mom both lost their dads to the Spanish flu. That is one way they bonded when they dated. I don’t think people who haven’t lost important people in their lives to understand the impact that could be reduced by observing the preventions . I read of many people with young children who died . I don’t forget hearing people died alone and funerals were kept very small. Not just the emotional hurt but the financial one. Both families went from comfortable to poverty stricken because there was no safety net and women rarely worked. This still happens when a parent dies. The social security isn’t much and if there wasn’t a good life insurance policy , it’s rough .

[-]

Outrageous-Leopard23@reddit

1919 was bad, it was worse because the entire world ignored it for two years so they could mobilize for WW1. The only country (Spain) who published about the flu got punished by the rest of the world for being vocal. Every other govt had a kill order on publications about the “Spanish” flu- that started in Kansas.

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

Foods always a safe bet since you’ll use it no matter what!

[-]

Iwentthatway@reddit

“Like most other types of influenza” that still tens of thousands of people dying in the US alone.

Also, it can do a lot of killing before it becomes less deadly…so you’re basically thinking the same as Lord Farquaad from Shrek:

Some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

Yea, the name of the game is to get it later and survive instead of getting it first and dying

[-]

DisastrousHyena3534@reddit

Oh thank god someone told me the secret. Now I will be sure to not die

[-]

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

Uh... no. Diseases do not always become less fatal with time. That's an overall trend in a lot of cases, but not a guarantee. Look at Covid. Original Covid wasn't all that deadly. Then the delta variant came along and it was much, much worse.

There are already multiple strains of bird flu out there and it's not clear yet how lethal they are. One is known to be worse for humans than others. But the numbers just aren't in yet.

People make strange assumptions. In the pandemic, that got a lot of people killed.

[-]

jdeesee@reddit

I've always found it weird when people say things like "the pandemic response was overblown". Over a million people died even though many stayed inside and wore masks and all of the other precautions.

[-]

rocketshipray@reddit

Over 7 million people died if you consider all of the deaths countries have attributed to Covid and not just the million ones in your country/region.

[-]

jdeesee@reddit

I focus on my country because I'm more familiar with the numbers and the response taken to address the pandemic here. While the loss of life globally is tragic, I'm not completely familiar with the precautions taken by each country nor do I have the time/motivation to look it up.

[-]

rocketshipray@reddit

When talking about how many people died, that's all you need to look up. It doesn't matter the precautions taken - especially since you don't mention any other than masks - people still died everywhere. If you want to talk about just your country's numbers, specify that it's only for your country.

It's been much more impactful when I've talked to people about it to say how many people were reported to have died from it in the whole world. Helps with people who didn't have any or had very few deaths from the illness in their community because they see people say things like "over a million people died" and they think that's for the entire global population.

[-]

jdeesee@reddit

It absolutely matters what precautions were taken. That's how we understand what worked and what didn't. It also helps us understand why deaths were higher in some places compared to others.

[-]

rocketshipray@reddit

I’ll try to state my point one more time: If you don’t specify that you are only talking about one country, people will misunderstand you and take you at your word. When ONLY talking about the number of deaths, precautions countries may or may not have taken doesn’t matter. When talking about the responses and how many people obeyed the recommendations, yes noting the precautions taken is important. But whether you know what precautions Germany or Algeria took doesn’t change the fact that you are misleading people reading your comment by leaving out information that you are only talking about a fraction of the total deaths.

[-]

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

It's well over 7 million. We will never get accurate numbers out of India - they lost count in one of their surges - or China. 7 million was just an estimate of what was reported.

[-]

rocketshipray@reddit

Oh for sure. I would place it probably at least around the 10 million mark for total lives lost, it's just that only ~7,010,000 deaths have been directly attributed to the virus on their post-mortems/various death paperwork. There are also a lot of deaths that were because of complications from the virus and their deaths were put down to pneumonia, natural causes, etc.

[-]

SimpleVegetable5715@reddit

I know that it was a crapshoot to get medical care for any other illness during 2020-2021. I had to have surgery and they put us non-Covid patients in a disused office space with beds and curtains set up. That room had about 12 of us, and we used a bathroom off in a waiting room. I bet a lot of people weren't able to get treatment, since the medical system was totally overwhelmed, and ended up dying from that.

[-]

RenThras@reddit

I think it's more the response was INEFFECTIVE.

It wasn't targeted and we wasted a lot of resources "stopping" it in the wrong areas. And that's assuming "death with covid/death from covid" and the like weren't overreporting cases.

The lockdowns were overall very ineffective, stuff like the 6ft/2m rule has no science backing it and never has, mass vaccination when the people that really needed it were the elderly and sickly and we didn't have enough to go around, etc.

The response was wrong and often more punitive and invasive in all the wrong places than it should have been, and we've learned a lot of things didn't just not work, they made it worse - for example, the plastic barricades. Apparently, moving airflow and HEPA filters in buildings are REALLY good as a counter to Covid, but the barriers disrupted airflow and the filtration effectiveness, meaning all those barriers made things worse instead of better. That's just one example.

[-]

SimpleVegetable5715@reddit

The original strain of Covid was really bad, but it wasn't as infectious. Plus we had lockdowns, so each infected person didn't spread it to as many people. A bunch of the people who got long-Covid or became disabled from Covid got it in 2020.

It's still better to not get sick. A lot of autoimmune diseases are triggered by getting the flu. And you're right, a bunch of the viruses stay just as fatal.

[-]

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

I did a history here. Looking back is still chilling.

https://www.reddit.com/r/realWorldPrepping/comments/1c2hcla/about_covid_vaccination_history_and_observations/

[-]

KlausVonMaunder@reddit

Then again.... https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

[-]

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

It's not even vaguely obvious what you're trying to state. No one's ever been able to prove OR disprove a synthetic origin for Covid - the various US agencies involved came to split decisions - but wherever it came from, it's irrelevant to OP's hope that diseases always get less fatal with time. Diseases mutate regardless of origin, and sometimes mutations make things worse not better.

So yeah, it's possible a lab screwed up and shed Covid, but at this point what does that change?

[-]

KlausVonMaunder@reddit

Well, point is--anymore, one never knows what one is really dealing with, nor what it may be engineered to do.

Expecting those conflicted and "various US agencies" to come clean is like asking the CIA about involvement in JFK's assassination.

Fairly well proved in Wade's article and here's Dr Syed: Absolute proof: The Gp-120 sequences prove beyond all doubt that "COVID-19" was man-made

And: Endonuclease fingerprint indicates a synthetic origin of SARS-CoV-2

See also UNC and Dr Raplh Baric's patent on the "No See'm" method of near invisible splicing.

[-]

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

Even the article you pointed to didn't go as far as claiming deliberate release. The evidence for it being engineered is decent but circumstantial. But so is the evidence for zoonotic transfer. You got nothing.

And the deliberate engineer-and-release idea is completely absurd. The Chinese damn near crashed their economy in the pandemic and lost (we think) well over a million people. If this had been deliberate they would have certainly developed a decent vaccine ahead of time, rather than the rather crappy one they developed after the fact. They would also have done the release anywhere but near their own lab.

Where you really lose it is claiming that it was engineered to do something in the future. Take a basic bio course. A virus is a strand of genetic material, and what it does is determined by that genetic code. Period. It can mutate, but the mutations are random events happening at random times and places, and are not "controllable" from the initial coding. No, you can't code it to say "in six months, do something different." Mutations produce random results, not something you can predetermine or even predict well.

Finally, no military on the planet produces a weapon that it can't aim. Bioweapons are designed to stay in an area, not be contagious, and die off naturally with time. No one is going to seriously develop something that's going to spread and blow back into their own territory and screw up their own preparedness.

Add that to the CIA assassinating US presidents and I think we can call this a wrap. Bye.

[-]

KlausVonMaunder@reddit

Circumstantial?? Gp-120 sequences found NOWHERE else in nature. OK bud, easy on the Kool-Aid eh? But you're correct, I got nothing, Dr Syed DOES though. So do Nicholas Wade, Valentin Bruttel, Alex Washburne and Antonius VanDongen and many unlisted others, like These guys . But I gather your opinion trumps all of their expertise.

Did you read somewhere that I mentioned deliberate release? No, you didn't.

Uh...maybe you weren't paying attention, this is exactly what happened: "No one is going to seriously develop something that's going to spread and blow back into their own territory and screw up their own preparedness."

[-]

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

It's not even vaguely obvious what you're trying to state. No one's ever been able to prove OR disprove a synthetic origin for Covid - the various US agencies involved came to split decisions - but wherever it came from, it's irrelevant to OP's hope that diseases always get less fatal with time. Diseases mutate regardless of origin, and sometimes mutations make things worse not better.

So yeah, it's possible a lab screwed up and shed Covid, but at this point what does that change?

[-]

nanfanpancam@reddit

I got Covid for the first time this August. It was pretty bad but much more than a very bad flu. I have had Covid vaccines. I planned this as my strategy going in, stay away from everyone, wash frequently, get plenty of exercise and rest. Wait for a vaccine to be developed.

[-]

DisastrousHyena3534@reddit

Nope. It’s bad.

[-]

banjosandcellos@reddit

Masks are cheap NOW, if it happens they will each be worth what a box of 50 is now, if it doesn't happen, it was cheap

[-]

Bad-Paramedic@reddit

I think it's funny how people prepare for EMPs, societal collapse, "walking dead" lol, and other things that are kind of far fetched...

But disease and vaccines are something yall scoff at.

[-]

capilot@reddit

Get vaccinated. Don't drink raw milk*. You should be okay.

* It's spread to cattle, That's why raw milk is a problem.

[-]

SimpleVegetable5715@reddit

I monitor the levels of viruses using wastewaterscan dot org. Everybody shits, so waste water doesn't lie. If you got your flu vaccine, it has some effect on variants that weren't in the vaccine. Also wash your hands before you eat, and that will keep you far ahead of a lot of people. You don't want to get a regular flu either, those trigger chronic illnesses in a bunch of people.

[-]

MightyMoosePoop@reddit

healthmap.org

seems so

[-]

Abstract-Artifact@reddit

I would bet it’s a way to get more gene altering vaccines and depopulation.

[-]

hockeymammal@reddit

No

[-]

GeorgeKaplanIsReal@reddit

Yo, I said this sht would be a problem like a year or two ago in this sub, and ya’ll downvoted me.

[-]

Redditisannoying69@reddit

I’d say it’s more likely than other diseases since it’s front and center BUT that doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed. I’m no expert but it seems like people are being very reactionary to every single of piece of information we get when it hasn’t been all bad from my limited understanding.

[-]

ARGirlLOL@reddit

‘Less deadly’ than the previous 80% mortality rate seems like a low bar to clear, especially when most cases previously were in countries where people are often times undernourished and have minimal access to healthcare.

[-]

ladymatic111@reddit

Just another leftist power grab. Don’t worry about it.

[-]

Indyh@reddit

Ah yes, because nothing says ‘medical expertise’ like blaming a viral outbreak on a political ideology. I’m almost impressed by your ability to turn global epidemiology into a partisan conspiracy. It’s giving ‘I Googled half a headline once’ energy. Tell me, is your degree in virology from the University of Facebook, or do you just wing it when tying politics to public health.

[-]

Banned4Truth10@reddit

Yes. Stop watching fear-mongering news porn and go outside

[-]

Prism_Octopus@reddit

From what I understand, it hasn’t achieved human to human transmission yet. Once it makes that leap is when we’ll know if it was hype or not.

[-]

Helpful_Guest66@reddit

Ignorant question alert: I have ten chickens and part of me wants to get another ten because we share with our neighbors and it could be super helpful if there’s no eggs. But is that dumb? Is buying birds the last thing someone should do if I want to protect my kids?

[-]

PaxPacifica2025@reddit

The answer depends on how well you can be bio-secure in your set-up, which depends on a lot of factors like physical/geographical location, how much room you have, whether you can or are willing to set up disinfecting stations, etc. Our coop and run are enclosed, our farm flock of 20+ no longer free-ranges, we have boot and shoe sanitizing/disinfecting washes set up, and we use a lot of handwashing/hand sanitizing. I still feel there is a risk, but it's small enough that we are continuing on for the present.

We had intended to donate eggs to our local food banks, but that is no longer in the cards. So one thing we're doing is prepping to store more eggs long term (water glassing and freeze drying, for example).

I worry more about our completely indoor cats, to be honest. We're adapting their food to be safer. But it's nearly impossible to keep mice out of our farmhouse, and they could bring it in.

[-]

Helpful_Guest66@reddit

Thank you, this is extremely helpful!! I think I’ll not dive into more chickens. Im not nearly organized or educated enough to manage all this as well as I would need to.

I feel like a lucky brat for being dog people with cat allergies, that sounds so scary. Sorry you have to stress about that.

[-]

Interesting_Lab3802@reddit

This is the same question we were asking at the start of Covid. The only correct answer is that we won’t know until we know 🤷‍♂️ That’s why it’s a good idea to be prepared beforehand instead of trying to get essentials at the same time as everyone else.

[-]

TSiWRX@reddit

\^ u/Teton12355 - this post above hits the nail right on the head, for me.

It was how COVID played out here in the US, wasn't it? Pretty much no one outside of prepper circles really cared, until all of a sudden, it was "go time."

In searching for a bit of trivia a few weeks ago, I stumbled on one of my post posts in an online firearms hobby community. In their "Survival/Preparedness" sub-Forum, my post, dated January 27, 2020, I cited the BBC's coverage of what was happening in Wuhan, China, as a realistic scenario of what I'm prepping for. Here's what I wrote there -

The lack of food and medical resources is a reality that can follow any such natural disaster or government-imposed quarantine order, and I think it is worth everyone's while to be prepared for this very realistic possibility - if not eventuality - regardless of whether they then decide to go deeper down the "prepping" rabbit hole.

At that time, according to the CDC Museum COVID-19 Timeline (link below), there were a total of *_FIVE (5)_* confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the US.

The next day, on January 28, the CDC issued its "Level 3 Travel Health Notice," which advised all travelers to avoid any non-essential travel to China due to the 2019-nCoV, and the US State Department began relocating US Citizens from Wuhan back to the U.S. due to the outbreak.

I think that most adults who lived through the pandemic will easily recall what happened -so quickly- in the two moths after that, but if anyone needs a refresher, or for those in our community who may be younger and were not as up-to-speed back then, the CDC's timeline offers some historical perspective at the acceleration of events -

https://www.cdc.gov/museum/timeline/covid19.html

At the time, my wife -a licensed MD- was the chief medical executive of a major university (for those in academia, it's, more precisely, a "mid-sized," private research institution) here in the midwest. Her overriding responsibility was the health of the entire campus: students, faculty, and staff alike.

She -and her friends/colleagues in the medical community- could see that something "real" was brewing, but even as of the third week of February of that year, we still didn't have a second thought at flying from one side of the US to the other to attend their yearly conference. That said, I still remember that on our second or third night at the hotel, she turned to me and said "Maybe we should get some stuff to prepare, in case there's an outbreak."

On the flight home, an older Middle-Eastern gentleman experienced respiratory distress that was worrisome enough that the pilot *almost* requested an emergency landing, had it not been for the fact that there had been multiple MDs onboard -including an emergency medicine specialist- plus, as it would happen, a respiratory technician. Yet, after we disembarked and were on the drive home, we half-joked -this is perhaps morbid and distasteful to some, but those in the medical profession will likely understand the reason why so many of us use this kind of dark humor as a coping mechanism- that we were now probably going to die of whatever it is that's going around in China.

Drastic changes happened in just those 21 days between the last week of February and mid-March.

[-]

Carmen315@reddit

Well for animals it can be catastrophic and wipe out entire populations. It definitely has done so in South America. For humans, it may just be an issue on a case by case basis or only in particular regions. I'm not expert, I just saw what it did to the seals and sea birds in Argentina. It's devastating. I'd rely more on what epidemiologists and other health experts are saying versus the media.

[-]

BigDaddyKrow@reddit

It might be mostly hype. But it also might not be.

Grab yourself an extra case of masks and a couple gallons of purell. Sit on em until you need em.

[-]

Mysterious_Touch_454@reddit

Its always hype until it mutates, but no need to worry about it. You and your pets and family need exposure to all kinds of bacteria and viruses so you get resilience against them. Being too clean makes common flu dangerous to you.

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

Glad my mom didn’t let me use hand sanitizer as a kid when there was a craze about it, just told me to wash my hands like normal

[-]

Mysterious_Touch_454@reddit

haha yeah, no need to go to the extreme, like some people do.

Let kids play in dirt, eat bug and sand and get stung by insects. Be one with nature and build resilience.

If you sanitize everything, your body dont get "experience" to fight the actual bad viruses.

[-]

1one14@reddit

It looks to be lab grown, so we may have a problem Houston...

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

Finally an answer I expect from community of preppers lol

[-]

1one14@reddit

? If natural, we have a good chance of natural immunity saving the day. If lab produced either buy bad guys or a leak from the good guys, it will probably take a vaccine to counter it. So can they produce it in time? Will it be effective? Will people be willing to take it? I think we will be in trouble.

[-]

AFK_MIA@reddit

Even if this doesn't become a human pandemic, its effects on animal populations is already fairly devastating - and we will likely see worse effects on poultry and cattle agriculture for a while.

The question of seriousness vs. transmissibility has a couple different possibilities. The the virus is most efficient at infecting cells that have a particular protein on their surface. In humans this protein is common in the lower respiratory system (e.g. lungs) but not the upper respiratory system (nasal passages, sinuses) which uses a slightly different protein. This makes it hard to transmit - as the upper respiratory system is far more exposed to viruses than the lower respiratory system. But an infection of the lower respiratory system is fairly serious if it occurs (since lungs are fragile and necessary). Not all animals share this upper vs. lower respiratory system division of proteins - hence why this is spreading pretty fast in birds and many other mammals. It's also worth adding a caveat that this virus can infect those upper respiratory system cells - and other cells too - it's just not as efficient at it, so it doesn't tend to occur without a high amount of viral exposure.

Because of this, we are unlikely to see a widespread human pandemic unless the virus becomes better at infecting the upper respiratory system. It may do this by losing its affinity to the lower respiratory system protein - which would make it less dangerous or it can do this by simply becoming good at using both proteins (like COVID)- which would be very bad.

With that in mind, it's also worth understanding that historically, H5N1 infections have almost exclusively been poultry workers. If you are familiar with poultry farming, then you'll understand that those workers are generally exposed to a large amount of airborne chicken shit - so they likely were exposed to a high amount of virus that may have been inhaled fairly deeply. This method of exposure may be responsible for a lot of the viruses historically high case fatality rate. More recent cases have had more varied forms of exposure - so there may be a difference in both the quantity of virus those people were exposed to and a difference in which tissues are infected (such as the cases that expressed only as eye infections). We are also monitoring for cases more thoroughly. In the past, nobody would be testing someone with mild symptoms - so the historic \~54% CFR is certainly an over-estimate of the innate danger of the virus, but keep in mind that the pre-vaccine CFR for COVID was \~1%, so there's a lot of numbers that are less than 54% that are still really bad.

This is perhaps over-simplified, but hopefully that provides a bit of context to help you understand some of the counter-intuitive or seemingly contradictory aspects of the news.

tl;dr - It's already bad for agriculture, but not a human pandemic yet. The CFR is historically high because poultry farming means you're breathing chicken shit. If bad mutations happen then this becomes bad, but those haven't happened yet (that we know of).

[-]

nemleszekpolcorrect@reddit

So far ALL of them was just hype.

[-]

temerairevm@reddit

Even a normal/bad influenza can snarl up the health system. If you’re in the US, it’s not like our health system is working great as-is. I’ll let other countries speak for themselves but I don’t hear a lot of people talking about surplus doctors and nurses.

If it’s even somewhat worse than usual it will be a problem. So it’s not panic level time but I would recommend being prepped for Covid level times.

On the plus side, we learned so much from Covid that the same level of shutdown shouldn’t be necessary unless things get a whole lot worse. I was “essential” and was out there working pretty normally with a mask on my face. I didn’t love it, but you do what you have to.

On the minus side, despite the fact that we know what to do there are a whole bunch of people who for reasons are predisposed to refuse to do it. So that will make the whole thing worse than it needs to be. If it happens.

[-]

InevitableNeither537@reddit

I’m not really worried (yet) about it going human-to-human but I fully expect it to affect the broader food supply in 2025. See what it’s already doing to egg prices and supply, and plan for the same effects on beef, pork, turkey, chicken

[-]

ex-machina616@reddit

haven’t paid much attention to it but yes

[-]

chellybeanery@reddit

No idea, but I figure having extra masks and hand sanitizer can never really be a bad thing.

[-]

Def_not_EOD@reddit

It’s definite serious for birds, so if you raise poultry and depend on it for your food or income, then you should consider what you will do if you lose your whole flock. I raise ducks and chickens, both for meat and eggs, and don’t have a good answer yet other than lying on new suppliers for chicks in the spring.

What we haven’t seen is a variant that easily jumps from person to person yet, so don’t have data that explains how dangerous to humans it will be. May never happen. In the meantime, the best thing you can do to prepare to survive if you get it is to get down to a healthy weight and just get in shape in general.

[-]

Unlikely-Ad3659@reddit

It was a bit of an issue here in France a couple of years ago, we are on the migratory route for a lot of bird species who like to spend winter in warmer climes. Quite a few flocks culled in my area which pushed up egg prices a bit.

They trialled a vaccination program in the farmed duck population, that was a massive success, they have ramped up efforts this year 10 fold. They have also reduced infections just by keeping flocks inside for a couple of weeks in migratory season.

From my understanding, it isn't a massive danger to humans who do not work with wild bird populations, probably won't be a massive issue to humans, is a long long way from being transferable from human to human, but it is something that needs a lot of prevention and vigilance.

It is, and will be a danger to animals that catch and eat wild birds though.

Not hype, but it isn't something that you should be over worried about in 2025.

[-]

drmike0099@reddit

It’s not a long way from infecting humans, it’s a couple of mutations away, which could have already happened and we simply haven’t seen it yet. We really don’t know.

What we do know is that it has infected a lot of animals and some humans (no idea how many), and each infection is a chance for it to roll the dice and pick up the mutations it needs. In COVID they believe the major changes came from an infection in one immunocompromised person that allowed the virus to play the natural selection game for a long time.

[-]

vxv96c@reddit

I don't believe the US is vaccinating birds yet so our situation is a different baseline right now. Hopefully we'll follow Europe's lead.

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

Kinda my thinking, I’m worried about my cat and possibly food prices more than anything

[-]

_Erindera_@reddit

I normally feed my cat a raw food that's turkey, and I've now switched to cooked chicken.

[-]

lazybeekeeper@reddit

My concern around it is that so many people in the US are adamant it’s fake. It’s looking like a repeat 2019 in more ways than one and with so many people talking about how the govt or cdc is “making it a hoax”, it’s got me concerned by the sheer stupidity of it. I’m also in migratory pathing and a tourist town. So double whammy.

[-]

tianavitoli@reddit

correct that is how viruses mutate

evolution favors reproductive success because when you're dead, that's actually the end of your genetic lineage

[-]

Knightwing1047@reddit

If we can manage to properly address it, it can be contained and addressed. If we go about it the same way we did COVID and claim it's a hoax, then we're in for some serious trouble. It's a shame that our welfare is riding on the decisions of a group of geriatrics that only really care about making themselves rich.

[-]

PlanetExcellent@reddit

Check the posts over in r/prepperintel.

[-]

Rustee_Shacklefart@reddit

Covid was mostly hype.

[-]

baby_budda@reddit

Tell that to the 7 million plus people who died worldwide.

[-]

ResponsibleBank1387@reddit

It needs to be hyped so that eggs stay at $8 a dozen. Never let a story go to waste, much sure to make money on it.

[-]

vxv96c@reddit

If enough of us catch it from cats or backyard animals, it won't need to be h2h to be bad. The current severe case in the US was caught from backyard animals. People aren't accounting for the increasing ease of transmission from animals to humans.

Also the impacts on the food supply chain and ecosystems are already bad. It doesn't have to kill humans to hurt us. We're looking at an egg shortage that could extend to a chicken and even beef or milk shortage.

Now isn't the time to be cavalier.

[-]

slowd@reddit

Only less deadly (to humans) after it becomes virulent for a while (in humans.) The first wave of human to human infections might be very deadly. Or it could be not be, or it could not even make the jump to humans this time.

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

I just see a lot of fear mongering about it rn but the stats actually seem pretty optimistic. I'd like one less thing to worry about lol

[-]

217SilentEcho@reddit

I was initially very skeptical of claims that COVID was going to cause major issues because of how many times the media had previously sounded the alarm about a possible pandemic. SARS, MERS, swine flu, Zika, Ebola…

I’d say you should identify whether you’re a member of a population identified as high risk for acquiring an infection (since human-human transmission hasn’t been observed, right now I think that’s just people who work with livestock), and assuming no, maintain your typical preps and otherwise carry on. Certainly continue to monitor, but it shouldn’t be causing you any stress at the moment.

[-]

_catkin_@reddit

Most of those diseases were deadly outbreaks that were contained. For the countries and people involved they were a big fucking deal and it took a fair bit of work to contain them.

We never saw any real attempt to contain COVID. It was like watching a train wreck happen in real time - a preventable one. It was pretty clear from watching the situation in Wuhan and then Italy that it was a massive problem and most national authorities weren’t lifting a finger.

[-]

lazybeekeeper@reddit

Just an informed observation around this, but I would expect the same level of not doing a thing around this as well if it rises to even half the level of Covid if you’re in the United States.

[-]

NoProperty_@reddit

I'd expect worse. Like half the American people are convinced that any kind of public health intervention is 100% fascism. Cooperation was already kinda tepid beforehand, and now the country will be actively hostile. For better or for worse, though, if bird flu becomes an actual concern, that hostility might become a self-fixing problem. They'll have like bird flu parties and when half the invite list dies, they'll either learn or they won't.

[-]

lazybeekeeper@reddit

Yeah I meant to say "the same or worse" but honestly at this point it doesn't seem to make a difference. I'm just trying to survive and if the lord and masters over me allow me to thrive, that'd be nice.

[-]

EconomistPlus3522@reddit

I mostly think its fallout to factory farms. 99 percent of chickens are factory farmed something like 97 or 98 percent of pigs are factory farmed 70 something percent of cattle are factory farmed.

The chickens are getting it being in overcrowded indoor barns. There is limited video on the conditions because well it's illegal for you to video a chciken factory barn when you work there.

Here to give you an idea. Its only going to get worse https://youtu.be/zNtxvppw45k?si=5QlWFkrtY1NFzhx3

[-]

ElectroHiker@reddit

33m and Anecdotally my family just got one of the bird flus before Christmas. I was sick for 1.5 weeks and 2 days out of it I felt like I should have gone to the hospital it was so bad. It's real out there, but the financial impact is uncertain.

[-]

Myspys_35@reddit

There has been no cases of person to person spread so.... same as always. Fear mongering is out of hand, there are strains of H5N1 going practically every year so no need to freak out. That said we should always be prepared as pandemics, and ones a lot more virulent than Covid 19 will happen, we just dont know when the next one will be

[-]

datguy2011@reddit

There was at least one old guy in Louisiana that got it. I'm still not worried about it though

[-]

Myspys_35@reddit

There have been several cases of bird to human spread, but unless you work with poultry its not really a concern for human health

[-]

crowislanddive@reddit

yet.

[-]

Myspys_35@reddit

Do you realize there are several strains and outbreaks every single year? And that just avian flu. https://www.cdc.gov/bird-flu/avian-timeline/2020s.html

Then we have a constantly evolving landscape of other viruses that are actually spread across humans, no one can predict which of these will one day mutate to something we dont have a response for and unleash a deadly epidemic. Thats why I emphasize always being prepared for pandemics instead of randomly freaking out at the news

[-]

crowislanddive@reddit

Why yes, yes I do know this.

[-]

Turbulent-Pea-8826@reddit

This is the CDC site with information

CDC.gov/bird-flu/

[-]

Wide-Umpire-348@reddit

Well, I can tell you about the bird flu personally. I caught it when I was 16 all those years ago in western Oregon.

It's no bullshit. I threw up every color on the damn rainbow. I also went more than 3 days without more than a sip of water. I thought I was going to die but was too stupid to say anything.

I cried more than I drank. I also passed out on the 5th day of exhaustion of crawling to my toilet.

Ended up going to the hospital when my mom found me.

[-]

crowislanddive@reddit

Agreed it is no joke and this one makes one's eyes bleed.

[-]

_Erindera_@reddit

Yikes!

[-]

Teton12355@reddit (OP)

I’m good thanks!

[-]

Antimusv@reddit

Bro said they didn't want the bird flu and is getting downvoted lmao

[-]

lazybeekeeper@reddit

How do you know it was bird flu? Did they test you?

[-]

SoloHunterX@reddit

Gain of function research is out of hand, it would be great if the scientists would stop doing that before they destroy the world with one of their accidents.

[-]

BrightAd306@reddit

I think it will basically be like 2009 swine flu. Things won’t shut down like they did for Covid.

[-]

PrisonerV@reddit

The scary unknown is that it is quite deadly and all it will take is a mutation to more contagious in humans for a mass spread. And given our current anti-mask, anti-isolate, anti-vaxx it could do massive damage before a pandemic is over.

Definitely keeping an eye on it.

[-]

Psychological_Ad9165@reddit

Control the masses at all costs !

[-]

thumos_et_logos@reddit

It’s hard for me to tell honestly. After Covid it seems like every illness is all alarm bells ringing. I can’t tell what’s serious and what’s noise

[-]

Immagonnapayforthis@reddit

We had a near miss with H1N1 back during Obama's administration. COVID gave us a test run. We can't fuck up how we respond to this one, otherwise it'll be very catastrophic. The mortatlity rate is >50%. I'm mostly a lurker here, but am taking more and more of this seriously and determining what I can do in my home to prepare for food shortages and the like. Looking at getting a vertical aeroponic grow system to operate in my home. Anyone doing something similar to protect food security?

[-]

sim-pit@reddit

Whether it is or not, the overreaction will be real.

[-]

JasperKlewer@reddit

Don’t drink raw milk. Unless you want to be patient zero that starts the next pandemic.

[-]

ommnian@reddit

I don't think anyone knows. There have been warnings and freak outs about bird flu for at least the last 3-4+ years. It has yet to materialize in a pandemic form, for humans. It is, and has been, endemic to birds, for at least decades, and probably millennia.

[-]

Brave_Principle7522@reddit

It’s hype til it ain’t

[-]

lurkertiltheend@reddit

I’m more concerned about the price of eggs and milk than I am about catching it at this point

[-]

boonjives@reddit

Yes

[-]

_catkin_@reddit

Hard to know. Look past/ignore clickbait headlines. Look for facts. It’s been around a while now and life goes on..

There are reasons it’s a worry already - it is affecting food supply in some areas and capable of hurting pets. So if it’s in your local area you would want to know.

More animals infected increases odds of human infection, and that goes for farm and pet animals. Getting a mutation that allows human - human transmission seems to be a matter of luck. But separate from that would be how dangerous it is on a wide scale, and how contagious it is. I just don’t think we can know. I won’t personally be alarmed until/unless there are at least a few documented cases of human-human transmission.

It is disturbing that human cases still keep popping up, all because individual farmers choose to save their $ over spending on testing and PPE for the employees in their care. Government should be stepping in to lay out some rules and provide robust financial support to do the right thing.

I think we’re all more antsy because of COVID which blew up in our faces. That’s not a bad thing but try to think back to stuff before then like MERS, SARS, ebola outbreaks. You kept an eye on the situation but if it wasn’t in your area or spreading widely, it wasn’t a huge worry for you personally.

[-]

Prestigious_Yak8551@reddit

Well some of the stores here are out of eggs. Shopped around and found a carton for $8. Not the end of the world but not a good sign if you ask me. I'm worried about all the wild bird populations more. It's not good news for them.

[-]

AdditionalAd9794@reddit

It's mostly hype. I mean despite our failing, inept exorbitantly expensive Healthcare we still have zero human deaths in the US.

It's actually more dangerous being a billionaire CEO of an insurance company.

You're more likely to die choking on a dry chicken nugget than the bird flu. And I guess if you don't choke, eventually the obesity and diabetes will get you

[-]

Wide-Umpire-348@reddit

I think I caught it last week, to be honest. I've never had influenza, and I've only been bedridden once with a flu like virus, which was - tada, bird flu when I was 16.

I don't think it's hype. I was in tears and called 9/11. Totally thought I was going to die.

[-]

ThisIsAbuse@reddit

If it was all hype - public health agencies, and world and state governments would not be stockpiling vaccines and spending tons of money.

In any case we are preppers and we tend to consider bad events (some here worse than bad) and prepare as much as we are able to for them.

[-]

ryan112ryan@reddit

Just focus on being more self reliant and always keep improving. Think back to Covid and ask what would you have done differently, be prepared in that way.

[-]

mythozoologist@reddit

Influenza mutates often. No one knows when it's going to become more transmissible or intense. Pretty much the only thing we can control are proximity, hygiene, and vaccination.

We do know some species hops are easier than others. Pigs to humans crossover is very common. Just because a virus hops from one species to next doesn't mean it can sustain itself further in a new host.

There are like distribution models and rates of mutation that help virologist and epidemiologist predict likelyhood of events. Every patient zero is unlucky, but probably has extended contact with a host organism.

Wash your hands. Cover your cough. Stay home if you're sick. Cook your food. Be healthier.

[-]

lcrker@reddit

yes.

[-]

kceNdeRdaeRlleW@reddit

Yes.