Questions about a PSU brand obscure in the United States but well known in parts of Europe, and some general questions for good measure

Posted by Street_Appointment81@reddit | buildapc | View on Reddit | 4 comments

Hello there, I have some questions regarding PSUs in general and also regarding a PSU brand (MS) that is largely unknown outside of parts of Europe and perhaps Asia. I would like to preface this by saying that I am not motivated by the purchasing dillema or anything similar as I already own this particular 600w model (MS CORE M600) and it has been working without any issues in a computer that has a 125w Phenom II X4 cpu, RX 570 4GB GPU that under load reaches 150w , three SATA SSDs and a single exhaust case fan. The unit has proven to be reliable with these not-exactly-power-sipping components and no problems have arisen within the last year since I have purchased it as a replacement for a woefully inadequate PSU that resided in the PC before. I am curious to know, outside of the obviously unknown brand, what do knowledgeable people make of it from its declared specifications. Before buying it I did some reading first on PSUs and I learned that that the 12v rail rating is perhaps the most important metric for power supplies feeding modern computers (in my case not cutting edge but still more modern than Pentium 4 era PCs). Since all the heavily power dependent components such as the CPU and GPU are getting their electricity from the 12v rail it should be by far the most powerful rail as opposed to old PSU that had a more equally distributed power rating among 12v, 5v and 3.3v rails. What at cursory glance makes a solid (if not perfectly efficient) computer power supply? Taking aside the first impulse to declare it an unknown, untested, brand of questionable quality (the point of view which I completely understand) and the deeper insights into the innards (which I dare not to do) what would you think of these specifications? To you, do they imply decency and reliability or inadequacy as the 12v rail is still not 600w but 576w? These are the specifications of the unit 12v - 48A = 576W 3.3v - 15A = 75W 5v - 15A REAL POWER 600W MAX POWER 650W PROTECTIONS: OVP/OPP/SCP Rated voltage: 230v Rated frequency: 50Hz Picture of the unit: MS Core M600 power supply [https://s.cdnmpro.com/886237972/p/l/8/napajanje-600w-ms-ms-core-m600-80-platinum\~3948.jpg](https://s.cdnmpro.com/886237972/p/l/8/napajanje-600w-ms-ms-core-m600-80-platinum~3948.jpg) Thank you for any insights and answers you may provide as I find the subject of Power supplies rather interesting, and since I have difficulty finding reviews on this particular unit I am curious on your thoughts. As I said I personally have no problems with this unit, but I am intrigued by that possible undeclared space of unknown decent units between the universally derided badly regarded brands and models and universally acclaimed brands and models on the flip side. Sidenote: This particular Core M series (M500, M600, M700) is specifically geared toward more power demanding computers intended for gaming, as typical MS PSUs that are found in ordinary office boxes are of the very generic type that are good for their intended low power use, but are otherwise widely maligned in any sort of upgraded machine that has higher requirements. Best regards.

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GeraltForOverwatch@reddit

Right off the bat I get a red flag from the 220/230v input. Any PSU worth their salt (15 years ago) should be universal input active PFC. That's like the most basic thing. A point on the subject of PSUs in general: PSUs are as much about quality as they are about wattage. A PSU can have all its wattage available and delivering, as it says on the label (which isn't always truthful mind you), and yet be a complete shitbox. It's like topping your tank at no-where-crack-den gas station, yeah you got 50L out of it and the car will start and work but you probably got watered down gas that makes your engine crunch overtime under the hood (and most drivers wouldn't notice in short term). For instance: Voltage regulations. The ATX standard has a limit of 5% voltage regulation variance in the positive 12/5/3volt lines, i.e. technically a +12V can be anything in between +11.40V and +12.60V. That means your PC can take a pouding in terms of poorly regulated input and still run and perform as expected for the most part. 5% is actually a horrible voltage regulation these days by the by. A 2020 Corsair CX650 (not a high end unit) has 12v load in the ~**0.**66% (https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/zeMSLCfWSJEF4d6Mo4Kn2W.png). Okay so why does that matter? It matters because the CPU and GPU (that's what we mainly worry about) don't use 12v directly, that 12v runs through the VRM first which needs to clean it up. A poorly regulated PSU puts far more stress on the VRM than we're comfortable with. This affects not only parts longevity, but it can make CPU and GPU boosting less aggressive if the regulation is bad enough. Point is, a PSU can deliver its power, work perfectly all right for months or even years, while your motherboard and GPU VRMs are frying themselves cleaning up that power. And the worst part is: The PSU itself doesn't feel it. The motherboard, ram, CPU or GPU are likely to lose years off their lifespan, maybe die on the user and then you'll hear "GPU brand X is bad, mine bsod in 18 months I can't fix it" and the PSU is there not having a care in the world and the user thinks "PSU good it lasted me years, no problems". So line regulation is a major concern for PSUs that no label ever shows. Now add to that quality check ripple (which is residual wave from ac-dc conversion the PSU performs), cable thickness (too thin=bad), hold up time (too low=bad), in rush current (too high=bad) and in the end a PSU's maximum power delivery, i.e. its "wattage" is actually... Not that relevant. Most desktop PCs would be just fine with 650W (here I ask reddit to realize most people dont have a 4070+ GPU and a Ryzen X3D), but none would be fine with "bad watered down gas". Furthermore, to test all those little things one needs very expensive equipment, a load tester costs thousands of US dollars, and one needs osciloscopes and good multimeters atop of that, so all those Amazon PSU reviews saying it "runs great" or even the slighty more informed user that goes "HWInfo shows 12v is 12.1v" are to be ignored. It's like asking Karen what she thinks of the Boeing 747, yeah she was on the flight and came out alive, doesn't mean she knows if the front fell off. If you wish to know in more detail I suggest Tom's Hardware methodology read, it's from 2022 so relatively recent, and explains all the things we look for when we want a good PSU: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/how-we-test-psu,4042-6.html

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Street_Appointment81@reddit (OP)

Wow, thank you for the very in depth reply! I was hoping for this kind of insight even though, admittedly, I have no real knowledge of anything pertaining to power supplies so if you don't mind I may ask some annoying additional questions. About the 230v input. I didn't really give much thought about it as I simply chalked it up to standard residential voltage in Europe. Is that wrong? What does universal APFC mean? (I know it is short for something called Active Power Factor Correction or something similar. There is also APFC specification on the box of this unit for what is worth). Essentially, what I gather is The power supply unit may uphold its promise to provide the rated power, but it may be 'dirty' so to speak and therefore the motherboard voltage regulators and other components (like GPU and CPU) are left with cleaning it up and consequently being damaged by the additional strain. Is that correct? I am sorry for the stupid questions. Honestly, my curiosity is now morphing into horror as the rest of your post strongly implies I am baking my 'puter alive with the unit, hehe. Thank you again for your insightful response, I really appreciate it.

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GeraltForOverwatch@reddit

> About the 230v input. I didn't really give much thought about it as I simply chalked it up to standard residential voltage in Europe. Is that wrong? It speaks to the PSU's input range. PSUs with universal input can work perfectly with anything from 100 to 240V. That includes weird values like 140, 150, 170 and more importantly the PSU can "switch" between those values without powering down - in fact it barely affects its performance, it's an amazing thing to see IMO, fluctuating input with near constant output... Why would anyone have those odd values? Theoretically they shouldn't, but fluctuations sometimes just happen. If you turn on a vacuum cleaner, or the freeze kicks in, or maybe you have a electric heater, hair dryer anything those "kick in" the tension (aka voltage) in your grid is likely to drop - ever turned on an electric shower and the incandescent lamps in your house pulsate a little? That's it. This can also be a factor if you live in apartment buildings too so it's not limited to one's household. And after the drop is over, sometimes there's a spike as well from overcompensation. This is also a big issue if the grid is shared with factories with heavy machinery. And can affect household around them, not just the PCs inside the factory. >There is also APFC specification on the box of this unit for what is worth). Okay I never heard of Active PFC PSU that *is not* universal input. Giving it some thought I think I know why that is. See, despite being universal input (100-240v), if you take two exact same PSUs and work one in 110v and another in 230v, the 230v one tends to have better efficiency, i.e. saves more power, it's small but clearly measurable, 5% *tops* - I couldn't tell you why precisely but it's there. Now it could be the MS Core M600 was compelled, either by goverment regulation or marketing, to sell a "80+ efficiency" PSU, thus they sold it as 230v-only unit to guarantee said efficiency boost. That's just a guess though, don't go inputing 110v in there and blaming me. Alternatively, they sell only in 230v regions and don't want to confuse layman costumers. "I need 127v not 100-240v" - actual quote from a client I had to deal with at some point. It happens. I don't think they're lying about Active PFC (which has also happened, sadly enough) because you said they sell in EU, and EU enforces Active PFC even in minor eletronics as low as 75W (because it helps with to reduce load on the power grid on a grand scale, it's a whole thing with reactive/active power). So there's no way to legally sell this in EU without Active PFC. >Essentially, what I gather is The power supply unit may uphold its promise to provide the rated power, but it may be 'dirty' so to speak and therefore the motherboard voltage regulators and other components (like GPU and CPU) are left with cleaning it up and consequently being damaged by the additional strain. Is that correct? Succintly and accurately put, yes. >I am sorry for the stupid questions. Wish my clients were "as stupid as those" questions. So hard to convince the buggers to get a good PSU sometimes - and we have some real trashy stuff here in LATAM. >Honestly, my curiosity is now morphing into horror as the rest of your post strongly implies I am baking my 'puter alive with the unit, hehe. I literally do not know what kind quality you're getting with that PSU, I merely explained why a PSU might provide stable power and still be bad. MS Core M600 could be great, who knows? I certainly don't. But that's kind of a problem too right? Not knowing? I myself try to keep to the saying "PSUs are guilty until proven innocent". And in the current market for EU and US there is zero excuse to get a "surprise box" PSU, very good value PSUs like Corsair CX, MSI MAG AB-N, various EVGA Bronze units can be found just a coffee above unknow models with no proper reviews. The difference between a 39,99USD unit and a 49,99USD unit can be staggering. >Thank you again for your insightful response, I really appreciate it. My genuine pleasure.

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Responsible-Mess-544@reddit

i just got a i5-12400f and 3050 build with this PSU i now wish to end my life.

Questions about a PSU brand obscure in the United States but well known in parts of Europe, and some general questions for good measure

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GeraltForOverwatch@reddit

Street_Appointment81@reddit (OP)

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