What’s your thoughts to the American reactions around Luigi Mangione?

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UnderstandingFar8413@reddit

The way I was raised was any one who murders = criminal

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Including a soldier in a war and a doctor giving pain relieving drugs at the end of life that hasten the end? Everyone would agree that one who murders is criminal but not everyone agrees that every killing is a murder.

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Plasteroff@reddit

Neither of the examples that you've given are likely to be murder. A soldier in war who kills someone as part of their role as a soldier, following all relevant laws and treaties and orders, has not committed murder. A doctor giving pain relieving drugs at the end of life who has followed all relevant laws and regulations and guidance has not committed murder. No one said every killing is a murder, they said every murderer is a criminal. You've literally said "everyone would agree" with that - so what are trying to start an argument over?

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oudcedar@reddit

The fact that a nonsense apple pie statement was made by the poster above. The whole point of this debate is not whether everyone thinks murderers are criminals (doh!) it’s that not everyone thinks the killing was a murder.

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Plasteroff@reddit

If that's what your issue was, why not say that? Why pretend your issue is something else and make yourself look stupid instead? But also, you don't get to unilaterally decide what "the whole point of the debate" is. How arrogant are you?!

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Swimming_Possible_68@reddit

It's strange isn't it? The US obviously hate the system they currently have, to the point of virtually celebrating a murder of someone involved in that system, whilst at the same time they will: 1) decry any calls for a universal healthcare system as 'socialism' and 2) voting in governments who will do nothing to change the status quo. Even when Obama was president and tried to push through some reform he had to water it down to get it passed through both houses. It just tells me that America is a very, very strange place and I'm glad I don't live there. Happy to visit though! As long as I don't get sick.

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Huge-Brick-3495@reddit

The healthcare lobby is exceptionally strong in the US. Both republican and democrat politicians have no interest in going against the lobby. The actual people that suffer are sadly left with no choice.

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ernfio@reddit

I don’t think the reactions we read on Reddit are completely representative of Americans. It is one skewed view. Personally American now seems a shocking place hellbent on division and conflict. There are strong attacks on its democracy and it seems incapable of addressing inherent problems in its system. I can stick to my principles on this one. I don’t want a society where individuals can choose their own law and retribution. That leads to a society where “the strong” thrive whilst the weak and vulnerable are bullied and intimidated. Instinctively I don’t trust ideological zealots anyway. It seems to be more about them than the cause. They often flip or choose causes to behave the way they want. And I don’t think there is a lot of evidence to substantiate the view that without direct action there is no change. There are plenty of examples of change through democratic means. Indeed this is normal. There are plenty of examples of direct action leading to endless violence and conflict. I accept there is sometimes justification for direct action. Because it creates a sustainable and beneficial outcome. But that is quite rare when set against the huge benefits of democratic progress. I fear what he has done will entrench division and give justification to those who want destroy the democratic system in the US. Bluntly this is catnip to the alt right. It is exactly what they wanted to further scare people and gain approval for their reactions.

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hawfbottle@reddit

I feel much more sympathy towards luigi than the CEO. By all accounts from the moment that CEO took over the rejection rates sky rocketed as did the company's share price, I'd class the CEO as a mass murderer. The fact that the American police are charging terrorism charges is disgusting. Thousands of school shooters per year don't get that put against them. Who exactly is meant to feel threatened with terrorism in NY because it certainly isn't the working person. Further pushing the idea the police and law enforcement are only there to protect the rich and crowd control the workers.

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Plasteroff@reddit

>The fact that the American police are charging terrorism charges is disgusting. Thousands of school shooters per year don't get that put against them. I think your anger here comes from simply not knowing the definition of terrorism. Just because one person is worse than another doesn't mean that the worse one is a terrorist and the better one isn't a terrorist. It's based on the motivation behind the actions taken.

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Saw_Boss@reddit

>because it certainly isn't the working person Nothing in the definition of terror states it has to be the "working person". He committed an act that could be described as being towards a political aim. Plenty on Reddit have mirrored this, with claims that this is a warning to the other 1%ers or whoever. Whether or not it's terrorism is entire dependant on his motivation.

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grafeisen203@reddit

I disagree in principle with murder and vigilante justice. As corrupt as the legal system is, it is still less fallible than random individuals with very limited perspectives. But I certainly understand why he did it and why people aren't cut up about it. This CEO was indirectly responsible for many deaths and a great deal of physical, emotional and financial hardship.

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Huge-Brick-3495@reddit

Not sure I would call him a murderer, he has the robin hood vibe though

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P2P-BSH@reddit

The gunman isn't a murderer?

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Huge-Brick-3495@reddit

1. He hasnt been convicted of anything yet 2. Some feel that it was a righteous killing which wouldn't meet the definition of murder 3. He was at my house at the time of the shooting

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P2P-BSH@reddit

He's still a murderer. He's just a murderer you like.

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Huge-Brick-3495@reddit

Re your Jo Cox edit- Jo Cox was a constituency MP sitting in the opposition party. She did not create/ratify any government policy that caused widespread misery and/or death. The WHITE SUPREMACIST who killed her was later CONVICTED of murder. If you're going to troll do you think you could make it a bit more subtle?

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Huge-Brick-3495@reddit

It's for a jury to decide if he meets the legal definition of murder, so he is currently an alleged murderer with several hundred thousand alibis. Set aside legal definitions for a moment though- Brian Thompson and his company were the direct cause of millions of preventable deaths with their tactics of deny, delay, defend. United Healthcare has double the average claim denial rate, and ultimately denied a third of claims. They inflicted miserable deaths on so many people who paid vast sums of money for coverage in good faith. He was a white collar criminal who was of course safely hidden in the US justice system, but he still meets the moral definition of an evil evil piece of scum. In a remotely just world he would be tucked away in prison, safe from alleged murderers.

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P2P-BSH@reddit

Stupid edgy redditors

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This_Rom_Bites@reddit

It shouldn't have taken a murder to generate this much focussed noise about the fundamentally anti-life nature of the healthcare system in the US. Murder is objectively inherently wrong. At the same time, I get it. If the evidence is genuinely there and robust, I would have to convict if I were on the jury, but in light of the allegedly overwhelming evidence of what is essentially corporate murder on an industrial scale at the victim's instruction I would want to consult with the very senior judiciary before sentencing. It's probably fair to say that the US is as prone to romanticising the "underdog strikes blow against injustice" narrative as anyone else. I wouldn't want to have to assert that the response would have been much different here had we lived in the same system.

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811545b2-4ff7-4041@reddit

Murdering a CEO won't fix a broken system and it's a very American thought process to approve of Luigui Mangione and not wanting to actually fix the problem he was rebelling about.

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octobod@reddit

It has brought the whole thing into the public discourse and maybe caused that other company to roll back on limiting the amount of anaesthesia they'll pay for. Not that it will change anything

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Accurate_Prompt_8800@reddit

This is exactly it. All that’s going to happen is increased protection and security for the CEOs of these major companies, if anything they are safer. A ‘righteous’ killing doesn’t change the fact that the system is entrenched and will continue to exist.

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Silver-Article9183@reddit

It's... Complicated. On one hand, I don't believe in the death penalty and therefore if you don't believe in that punishment you cannot condone or justify murder whether the person was an innocent or a ceo whose business practices prioritised profit over the wellbeing of his customers. On the other hand, the only people I feel sorry for in this whole saga are his kids and his ex who have been dragged into this. If Americans want better Healthcare they better start voting for the people offering that.

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subtlevibes219@reddit

Internet mobs are dumb. I feel like there should be a way to talk about changing the US healthcare system without cheering for murdering people on the street. It’s easy for me to say as a person who doesn’t have to live with that healthcare system though.

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Zak_Rahman@reddit

We don't have any way to protect ourselves against the rich. They can buy the government and decide policy. Murdoch doesn't need to even live in the country - he has more power over the UK than any of us. Plus, it's a system/culture that is incapable of admitting it is wrong or doing wrong. It's obviously pretty disturbing to have someone shoot someone else in the middle of the street. However, it is also the closest the Americans will ever get to justice given their "legal" system. They upped the charges to "terrorism", probably to get him in the federal system and also it lets them execute him. The judge of the case also has heavy family connections to the corporate health industry. They don't see a problem with this. I think this is reason 10,000 out of the million reasons we must distance ourselves from the US. If they treat their own citizens like this, I do not trust their "friendship" or "special relationship". We need to stop importing their gutter trash ideas and culture post-haste.

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Downtown-Chard-7927@reddit

I get why people are meming him into sainthood/ultimate thirst. Its the culmination of decades of frustration, sometimes at the cost of real people's lives and livelihoods. I'm also entirely sure what when they let him speak the preening and peacocking he's doing for the cameras will turn out to be his real personality and he will turn out to be some ghastly Patrick Bateman manosphere loon like all the other shooters and humans being stupid hormonal animals thought positively of him because he has pretty privilege. Like that meme where the ugly man gives the woman a compliment and she calls HR and yes, I am aware of the irony of me citing a manosphere meme here.

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AskUK-ModTeam@reddit

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bishibashi@reddit

It’s a fascinating story. The murdered guy is not a sympathetic character by any means, but a civilised society obviously can’t have that sort of killing going on. I think the reaction has really rattled “the establishment” which isn’t a bad thing. If Mangione is guilty sentencing will be very interesting.

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Rootes_Radical@reddit

They live in a society that actively fucks people over at every turn. The healthcare system, civil forfeiture, authoritarian HOAs, the real threat of being shot by police for no good reason, the real threat of being shot by a random person for no good reason, etc. I’m not surprised they’re angry and I’m not surprised they’re pleased that guy’s dead. It doesn’t make it right but it does make it understandable IMO.

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CleanEnd5930@reddit

In a country where guns are a right but healthcare is a luxury, I’m surprised it didn’t happen sooner.

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SingerFirm1090@reddit

You are correct, if there is discontent with the healthcare system, voters should lobby their elected representitives, though there is a problem or two. * Many politicians are funded by these health insurance company donations. * Many in the US are brain washed into thinking the US system provides the best healthcare. Some politicians, notably Bernie Saunders, try to campaign on this, but are dismissed and vilified as 'socialists' or 'communists'.

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heartthump@reddit

With how the world has been lately I do not blame him for what he felt like he had to do and I can see a lot more people go this route until shit starts to actually change It’s been like a decade if not more of “unprecedented times”, the only people being shafted by the ever worsening system are the 99% and it’s about time people started to take matters into their own hands

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Meet-me-behind-bins@reddit

It makes me love our free healthcare even more, appreciate the lack of firearms in this country, feel sympathy for our American friends and their shitty system, concerned about the massive creaking contradictions in the western system and what happens if they snap. It’s a strange feeling, the emotional part of me thought “fuck yeah! Get em! Those greedy corporate pigs!” The rational side of me thought : “ Shit, didn’t we create Democracy to avoid this stuff? Does this mean it’s all a smoke screen and Democracy is all just a load of bollocks? What happens when nothing changes? If America goes mad and there’s wide spread chaos then the whole world is fucked? Maybe that’s a bad thing? Maybe it’s better just to play along and behave like good little children because the opposite is a nightmare? I can’t see big needed change without chaos! How much chaos and violence will do the job? Shit could get really bad before it gets better! I’m exhausted already!”

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morecbt@reddit

I absolutely support Luigi Mangione and his actions. Things in America will not change if left to politicians.

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BlacksmithLegal3695@reddit

People tend to forget that real change has only ever been achieved through bloodshed. The only reason the NHS was set up and Council Houses were built was because we had been through a war.

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usemyname88@reddit

Call me old fashioned but the saying two wrongs don't make a right seems to fit this situation.

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tiankai@reddit

I agree with his motives that the healthcare insurance is fucked (although I’ve never actually experienced it, so not sure to what degree is it that serious in a general sense). However you don’t get to kill people because you don’t like them, that’s not a society I want to live in. If we’re arguing the CEO dude was a murder by proxy then everyone in the western world is a murder by proxy since we all buy stuff from supply chains fed by the sweat and blood of third world countries.

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PM-ME_UR_TINY-TITS@reddit

As with the last thread about this, I find the reaction disturbing and vile. Apathy I can understand but the hero worship and calls for the murder to go free are insane. As if killing one CEO will do anything, as if it's his fault alone things are like this. He was a CEO of an insurance company, his job was to find ways to use the rules to deny claims, it's what every insurance company does. Maybe if Americans didn't collectively shit the bed when socalisee healthcare or regulations were talked about they wouldn't need insurance in the first place.

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Great_Lunch_Dude@reddit

The world should be taking notes - we're in a long-running class war and unless you're in the 1%, you're losing. Wealth is being stripped from us all to line the pockets of those at the top. Without forcing change, that losing trend will continue until we're all destitute and wealth has been hoarded away by the elite. I always wondered about Americans 2nd amendment rights that they bang on about all the time, this is their 2nd amendment being used to enact change, which, frankly, is what they need. Good on him. Their health care system is evil and the only way it'll be fixed is for them to start forcing change, their politicians are bought and paid for corrupt. It's sad that revolution is needed but that's the world we all live in.

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Milam1996@reddit

He personally mandated the use of an AI system which he knew was given false outputs on claim decisions yet he kept it in place because it drove up profits. He is a demon who killed thousands of people and directly caused the suffering of countless more. My only surprise is that it took someone this long.

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sklatch@reddit

It speaks to our shallow, narcissistic modern culture that he is mostly receiving all this support and adulation because he’s good-looking.

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Glad-Introduction833@reddit

The main thing to come out of all of this will be high paid healthcare executives all over the USA will have beefed up security. There will be no change in policy. It’s like banging up drug dealers, it doesn’t work because there’s always another greedy ruthless person ready to take over.

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schwillton@reddit

The man he killed profited directly off inflicting misery on others, no shit people are celebrating it

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chlqeh@reddit

it’s hard, murder is morally incorrect, sure & i’d never be in support of it. however, americans being systematically f^cked by the healthcare system for decades and millions being in severe debt to the healthcare system due to a lack of insurance accessibility & claim cover.. it was bound to happen at some point. the people were bound to lose their minds at the thought of spending money on insurance just to get rejected cover and then spend the rest of their lives in such unfathomable debt all because of illness/injury. what i REALLY don’t understand is the boot-licking happening from many of the regular everyday americans who seem to ignore the fact that they are singing praises and hellbent on defending the system which is bound to screw them over too, eventually. some of my family are american, and the way i’ve seen some of them get online and fight to the last breath over health-care companies and ceo’s that don’t give a flying shit about them is crazy. borderline mass brainwashing on both sides

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MrNippyNippy@reddit

People who post such discourse are not always the most stable of people.

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Jaraxo@reddit

The dude made himself incredibly wealthy through actively making lifesaving healthcare difficult to impossible to forget. Sure he might not be the one on the front lines denying care, but just like in the military it is usually the commanders who get the blame for war, not the footsoldiers, he was by proxy a murder, and I fully understand why there's little sympathy for the death of the CEO.

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