Is programming still the profession of the future?
Posted by pitro__@reddit | programming | View on Reddit | 59 comments
I'm 14 years old and I love programming, obviously I have a lot to learn, but is it worth continuing to invest in programming, isn't it too saturated?
Old_Shop_4416@reddit
we will always need humans to overlook the programs written by ai/ml
Equivalent-Silver-90@reddit
ai don't replace there many reasons who said "we get replaced by ai" is joking And frist Reason if there serious programming (antivirus, operative system,anti cheat) ai right now or next years at least, will suffer to make script just working.
java_ninja93@reddit
AI is probably going to be considerate a new programming language in the future.
Keep going
Creativator@reddit
Agents are about to unleash a whole new platform of computing devices into our lives. Catch the wave.
BeneficialTeach5087@reddit
This aged well
Green0Photon@reddit
Every profession is both simultaneously too saturated and too empty. They're always talking about a labor shortage, but also about how it's overcrowded.
There's multiple economic cycles that overlap, and no one cycle fully explains it.
You have the 2010-2020 boom. Killer times to be a programmer. But I only finished school and got a programming job right towards the end of it -- and COVID messed with everything.
So you have years of people being pushed to go into CS. But with ever rising pay, too. Causing even more people to go into it, even if they don't care about programming or even never care to learn.
You also have a cycle of interest rates. Interest rates and tax favor ability meant that tons of VC investment occurred, tons and tons in software development. Jobs and money. Even for so many things that wouldn't create a profit. Often obviously so.
There's also a cycle of offshoring. That is, e.g. US devs being fired in favor of e.g. Indian devs. Often for the same e.g. 5 WITCH companies (that's an acronym of 5 big Indian companies known for this). Where execs hear the promise of drastically reduced dev and IT prices, by firing US employees and hiring contractors that work in India, that can be massively cheaper.
But then they realize that even if you can get by the timezone communication issues, the incentive issue (contractors not being the company owning the work, so they don't care, and actually want to increase prices), culture and other communication issues, and the informational transfer issues (quickly forcefully transferring over easily lost institutional knowledge), you still have another big problem. If those devs working at those companies were any good, they'd work for a company that paid more and charged more. That is, the same price as US devs.
And so the company wastes billions of dollars, loses tons of unwritten knowledge, and loses their competitive edge by handing all that knowledge to a different company and different country. And gets a non-working product, sometimes never even launched.
So then jobs get moved back.
That's three cycles: hype, interest rates, and offshoring. And right now they're all converged in a way that makes things crappy for existing devs.
In 2021 you had good interest rates, not as much offshoring yet, and tons of hype.
But then companies though, "if our employees can work remote in the US, why can't we have remote employees in India, South America, Eastern Europe, or the Philippines?" That is, cheap places of living with enough education to have some dev base to hire remotely. So fire employees and hire them. If devs were identical that's massive cost savings.
And then we had interest rates increase. Essentially, companies couldn't throw money around as much on long shots or things that wouldn't make a profit. Companies couldn't just hire devs to have numbers under them and maybe get something out of it, and keep those smart devs out of competitor's hands. They had to be worth it. And if they laid people off, they could rehire them all across the different companies but lay less in total. Because the devs were desperate and ok with lower pay, due to the layoffs.
And particularly recently, the last two years, the hype has been different. It's not been devs creating the Internet or smartphones or the cloud or crypto. It's AI. AI that creates text, like a human wrote it. For super cheap, vs hiring a human. And paying the humans is the most expensive part of a business.
So what if we replaced all the developers with AI? After all, that's what devs do all day, type text write? (Nevermind communicating with users and figuring out the design and typing the right thing, with there not really being one right answer.) So fire them all and replace them with AI. What do you mean our feature development rate has gone down?
So 2024 has been ass.
Maybe things will get better. Lower interest rates and companies needing to produce something instead of starving themselves. AI not delivering on its promises and so devs must be hired. Outsourced devs being worse and ultimately too expensive vs just having local devs.
Maybe some of things get better instead of all.
Or maybe they don't. Maybe AI can let companies have 10% devs for the same output and quality. Maybe we enter stagflation with high interest and high inflation, with a depression with high unemployment and few open positions, especially for junior devs. Maybe big drivers of new value aren't stuff that devs produce.
Or maybe it does get bad but gets reasonable in a few years, when you'd enter the job market. It was bad to graduate college and enter the job market in the 2008 recession. But leave just as we came out of it and you would've made bank during the 2010s.
The future is unknown. Ultimately, you need flexibility at your age. And even through college, even having picked some major. Being able to adjust to the conditions of reality is super important.
Assuming AI can't replace development anytime soon, I still the software development is a good idea. It's a hyper scale job. You create so much money very quickly for very little expense. Jobs like doctors are super valuable but way more work and stress, and aren't hyperscale. Same with lawyers.
So I recommend being good across all your classes. But it's also fine to follow an interest. Remember, passion and interest comes from time spent, not vice versa. Find something that's interesting enough that isn't too dangerous money-wise -- e.g. you don't want to rely on music or writing as your only ability. But don't force yourself to do what you hate. Follow the specifically interesting bits and you can get far, and expand your ability.
But don't focus too hard on future money making either. You also need to stay mentally sane. Life shouldn't be about the pursuit of money, as much as it forces you to.
Don't put your eggs in one basket. Don't put your self worth in one basket either.
As a dev with a job, make sure to be a person who can communicate and work in a team. While it is real nice to have a coworker who can actually understand and write code and navigate computers, you need to be a pleasant person to be around. And you've gotta be able to navigate bosses.
It sucks, but even in a world without scarcity and money and politics, software is ultimately to help people with something. So you gotta focus on people. No matter that many of us entered this field to not talk to people.
Good luck. I hope this helped.
SailMeHomeTheseus@reddit
It did! Your comment made me make an reddit account, so I could say thank you. Your words calmed me down a lot. Like, I spent my entire life learning skills that I worry will become useless, but your comment reminded me of my dads advice and you're right. The future is unknown. I hope one day I can handle that the way you do
I saved your comment so I can read it again when I need it
May your day be amazing out there!
Green0Photon@reddit
Wow! It makes me really happy to hear how much my comment helped.
I wish you the best! Facing the future is difficult, but we just gotta keep trying š
pitro__@reddit (OP)
Wow, thanks for this whole text, I spent a while reading it, but it was worth it, I really want to pursue computer science, and thanks for the tips. Regarding AI replacing programmers and such, I don't think it will replace it anytime soon, but it is definitely already removing the need for people in different roles, not eliminating it, but reducing it.
Happy_Ryuk@reddit
don't just don't i love pc and programming and a lot of fields n I am a junior in my opinion I will go to other professions and programming for fun and ai will make it easier for me not harder if u know what I mean
Green0Photon@reddit
In my personal experience, any time I actually use AI to try and help with my dev work or anything else, it's never actually helpful and always a waste of time. E.g. I ask a programming question and it just spits out what I entered in, phrased as an answer.
The biggest actual usecase and "value" generation is spam. Or, to put it differently, cheap and quick creation of human-like content.
LLMs are an evolution of text auto complete, to the point where they pass the turing text. But they're ultimately like the language part of your brain alone, and not any of the rest.
That is, you know how when you're tired, you can talk/write and you just produce nonsense? Or produce something with some thoughts in it, but not much? Just blabber that could have meaning, but if you think about it, really doesn't?
That's what LLMs are. Our brain's ability to think and do logic and what not is completely separate from the language part. And the language part can go far without having many ideas to actually communicate.
Likewise with image and audio generation. Though audio is more limited in scope, with voices especially, so fake voices are especially convincing. And doesn't have as much idea space to communicate, so it's more obviously useful. But notice how there's not much in terms of really all the complexity in emotion and other physical bits that go with speaking and audio gen. It's just text, mostly.
And images make something out of very little, but require a lot to be right. And even more so with video.
But it's all around copying the medium itself on the surface level. There's not much additional idea production and connection occurring. Some, because all inherently ideas. But mostly in looking like the thing it's trained on.
Point being, we now have a way to cheaply generate human looking context with no actual meaning/ideas embedded into it.
Perfect for spam bots. Perfect for some corporate art. Perfect for text no one will read but other bots. Or perfect if the content doesn't matter, only that it looks like there's something there.
Perfect for causing difficulty in combing through real creations. Because you still need a human to think on the idea to check, and that's harder than a human doing a turing test on the content.
So it isn't actually replacing too much, afaik. But it does mean many people get fired because people think it can replace the work. Or that the value of that work mostly was only in that there was anything at all. Or maybe that it's more profitable to fire people and let the thing crumble, with AI merely preventing immediate crumble.
Or maybe it's the same workers doing a greater amount of work with some amount of lower quality.
Realistically it's all of these, just depends on the situation.
But will this hold in the future? Idk. We're in a worse state than we were before with this information. Figuring out what was real was always possible, and the level of human output was never too high. Now? Impossible to comb through. And any AI used to make it easier to spot AI can then be used to generate more realistic looking content.
And consuming content that an AI wrote is ridiculous, at least right now. Nothing there communicating an idea. Just words and images that look like they mean something at first glance.
But it's cheap and makes money. Pandora's box has been opened.
Meanwhile, the work we wanted to replace was the physical work, the work that injuries people, the real bottlenecks of society. Not art and communication.
PhysicalMammoth5466@reddit
My friend told me a joke, the only thing more saturated than programming is p*rn.
The program with programming is a lot of people think they like it but end up hating it. Its maddening, especially when you have 10 layers of abstractions and a debugger that doesn't work because nothing can figure out the coroutine that launched the function. but....
If you like programming, pick up books. Not yt, not articles, actual books. Plenty are bad but if you read enough and write enough code you'll be able to tell if you like it. Also, reading one real life book might put you above the average dev. I probably read a dozen before my first job and another 20 afterwards. 7 languages in 7 weeks is a fun one but don't feel like you need to understand those languages, it more of a thought experiment
Powerful-Ant-9224@reddit
what books you recommended
pitro__@reddit (OP)
Thanks bro
pbecotte@reddit
Since computers were invented the progression has been - higher level languages or tech are invented - People predict the death of programming - instead, the added productivity leads to more people being hired as programmers
If you're into it, go for it. Besides, as I like to say- we will be the last ones with jobs anyway, since by the time a program can do our job, it can also do everyone else's job.
Anamolica@reddit
That last part is not true. Programming will be done by machines long before something like service plumbing.
Advancements in computers, software, and AI would have to slow way down and advancements in robotics and probably materials science would have to speed way up.
I agree with your overall stance and sentiment though.
mattbladez@reddit
Nursing also could never do it because bedside manners are absolutely necessary. Even a robot being sentient AF has no way to match that.
AltaYBaja@reddit
A true AGI would be super charismatic so hard disagree there. Even a program could mimic bedside manners. We'll see how people feel about it. I'm sure a computer would be more polite than a lot of nurses. I've worked around some before and sometimes they would mock patients. I would say everyone can be "replaced" if they remain biological, becoming post human will probably be required en have a competitive edge in jobs.
Regardless you can't run a society off of nurses and wait staff. Eventually something like a democratization of the means of production will be required unless we want to live under techonfuedalism.
mattbladez@reddit
Bedside manners is not just about what you say. Another human putting their hand on your arm and asking how youāre feeling is not that same as a robot. Humans need human connections. Weāre social beings after all. But maybe Iām in the wrong sub to be saying that.
AltaYBaja@reddit
Make the robot indistinguishable from a human and problem solved. I know at some point human senses will be fooled, maybe even sooner rather than later.
s3gfaultx@reddit
ChatGPT is already a better companion than most people are. I can't wait for our robot overlords to take over.
FormalBig5265@reddit
I need to poop
Anamolica@reddit
Godspeed.
pbecotte@reddit
Sure, but once a program can program, it can iteratively improve itself enough to solve...any problem a human can, such as plumbing.
It won't be day one, but I'm comfortable thinking that they'd need plenty of engineers working to help get the whole plumbing thing taken care of before they send us to the bread lines ;)
Zacisblack@reddit
Wouldn't different AI models just be considered different higher-level "programming languages" at that point?
No-Tension9614@reddit
yeah im waiting for AI to turn into a programming in itself.
Instead of Java, Python, etc. their might be a programming language thats tailored around or towards AI specifically. How that tool will look like? i dont know. But i think that might take effect some day.
pitro__@reddit (OP)
True bro, thanks
dobkeratops@reddit
focus on real world problem solving, with programming as a means to an end.
study natural sciences and mathematics.
chubs66@reddit
No. I've been doing this for 20 years. I expect AI to replace me within 2-3 years.
desimusxvii@reddit
You are completely correct. I graduated with a degree in computer science in 2003 have been a professional engineer ever since and I fully expect AI to replace 95% of software Engineers within 3 years
metahivemind@reddit
I graduated with a degree in computer science in 1980, have been a Defence engineer ever since, and I expect AI to successfully autocomplete my SMS messages to my Mum 95% of the time within 3 years.
desimusxvii@reddit
Want to put some money on it?
metahivemind@reddit
Yep. I bet $500 that AI will be able to successfully autocomplete an SMS message to my Mum within 3 years.
hairlessing@reddit
Shit!
YOBlob@reddit
You are 14, just focus on doing what you enjoy. If you like programming, keep going with it.
pitro__@reddit (OP)
š
shadowndacorner@reddit
Why is this getting downvoted lol...?
FunToBuildGames@reddit
WINKYFACE
FunToBuildGames@reddit
No idea
pitro__@reddit (OP)
I don't know bro
shizzy0@reddit
The emoticon did no wrong. Downvotes are misplaced.
logic11@reddit
I got automated out of my job. I recommend skipping fintech if you can. It's definitely highly susceptible to automation. You might have better luck with less rote programming jobs. Personally, if I had it to do over I'd get my plumbing certs
PhraseEmbarrassed856@reddit
Yes
shizzy0@reddit
Do it because you enjoy it. Thatās why I did it and itās allowed me to touch many peopleās lives in small ways than I would have otherwise. And itās been lucrative and rewarding, and itāll continue to be for people skilled in the art. The prompt engineering is whatās dubious to me. I feel like thatās like calling early Google users āsearch engineersā. Itās going to be used, by everyone. I donāt think itās a career though except for the people building it.
seriousnotshirley@reddit
No one can tell you what will be very in demand 8 years from now. Hell, often people who get into what's fashionable when they start college find it's not the highly fashionable thing when they get out.
Learning to program will always be a useful skill because learning to program well will teach you how to reason and engineer things in general, which are skills that you can apply to other domains.
Every subject you learn really teaches you something more abstract... it teaches you different ways of understanding and reasoning about the world, if you learn those underlying concepts then applying them to whatever is in demand in the future will be relatively easy.
pitro__@reddit (OP)
That is true
koollman@reddit
what is this 'future' you mention?
pitro__@reddit (OP)
I don't know man, like 10-20 years
tangerinelion@reddit
There's roughly 2 million people who use or have used C++. It is hard to hire someone who is actually competent with it.
seriousnotshirley@reddit
C++ is probably my favorite language to work in and I worked in a decent sized C++ group and isn't that the truth. The shit we'd be constantly discovering incredible. My coworkers were almost all very intelligent, most with graduate degrees and many with 15 to 20 years of experience in industry and the rate we were all learning new things about C++ and our own code was incredible. Once we made the leap to modern C++ the language was changing faster than we could keep up with at a very high level of competency. I swear we were copy-pasting Seth Myers and Herb Sutter half the time.
Marcostbo@reddit
Not anymore
monkeynator@reddit
It's only saturated in I believe entry positions and in the biggest markets such as gamedev (don't go into it first hand at least) and webdev.
But I believe programming in say industry is far less saturated.
waxroy-finerayfool@reddit
AI is going to make the job a lot more competitive and a lot less lucrative for most people. However, AI is going to do that for most jobs, so you might as well do what you're passionate about anyway.Ā
Dolphman@reddit
I'm not in a major market, a big city but not much more than that.
If you asked me, and I didn't have Google, I wouldn't even be able to tell you the industry is in a slump. What's in a slump is the roughly 2015-2022 gold era of for programmers, especially those who got hired off things like the low interest rates and industry buzz.
I don't see this changing anytime soon. Sure, you might have missed a short lived gold rush in a few markets, but I doubt 'its dead'.
If you like it, Persue it.
terrorTrain@reddit
Study programming and business, you'll be safe and nimble enough to some a lot of problems most people will never see
granadesnhorseshoes@reddit
Everything is too saturated these days. May as well do what you enjoy and are thus likely better than average at to have some advantage in the future job market.
The idea that programming as a career will be obsolete in the near future was around when I was 14 too and that was clearly bullshit now that I'm over 40.
You can always minor in buggy whip manufacturing just in case.
pitro__@reddit (OP)
Really bro, thanks
FoxyWheels@reddit
The market is in a slump, tech being hit harder than some areas, and AI just had a small leap forward, so everyone is saying it's the end of programming. It is not. Even if you think AI is the replacement for devs, someone has to create, update, improve, and fix the AI's source code.
As others have said, if you're interested then go for it. Also, 14 is too young to worry about your career.
pitro__@reddit (OP)
It cost