Charging is a big one, but the EV rollout is far more complicated than that. Even calling it range anxiety is misleading. We don't just need Charging stations, but we need quality ones. People don't want to deal with broken stations and waiting lines. Most EV owners prefer to charge at home but roughly 1/3rd of Americans, over 100 million people, are in rentals of some form and most new apartments and homes are *not* being built with chargers. A study even found that [over 50% of American homes](https://insideevs.com/news/688443/us-homes-unprepared-for-safe-ev-charging/) are not prepared for charging. This is important since throughly 60-90% of EV charging happens at home.
So even to solve the charging issue, we have to deal with the housing and economic situation. Even if we could get EV's for free and solve all the issues with the cars, we'd still have 1/3rd of Americans, 1 in three, who have no say in whether or not their housing allows them to charge at home. It's not just a perception or anxiety issue. I literally cannot use an EV because I can't charge at home, I can't retrofit my housing for charging, and on top of that, there aren't enough chargers.
It's a lot to deal with and frankly that's why companies are kinda skeptical about it.
Never going to happen, but damn ain’t that the truth. You ever been at a busy gas station and thought, damn who’s finishing up at the pump first? Now imagine that same problem, but it’s a 10-20min wait till the next person in line can get in. Just not happening.
And even if your house is fit for charging, it’s a decent bit of money to set up a proper one. Those trickle charge adaptors people use for plug-in hybrids are nowhere near strong enough for a full BEV.
I wired my Tesla charger in myself with no experience and it took a day or so. Most power panels are in the garage. You just add a breaker and some higher gauge wire and hook it up.
Full EVs are generally more efficient, so one hour of level 1 charging gets you farther than it would in a PHEV.
Level 2 is a good thing to have, but a lot of users can easily be served with 120v/15a.
If they drive a ton, that could be, so a 30a charger makes sense, but even a really inefficient truck EV like a Silverado is going to gain 30-35 miles a night and an efficient one will get ~60.
It's definitely workable for a lot of people; my brother got a Mach-E in September and plans to add an EVSE, but it's been fine just plugging into 120v, even during the freeze we've been having in Quebec lately.
It cost me $1,700 to install in California (labor + parts + permit). Combined with the high electric rates, I don’t think it’s saving any money compared to a hybrid.
> and most new apartments and homes are not being built with chargers.
100% of the new construction in my area is required to have chargers. The US is a varied place.
Yeah because you insisted that charging is the only issue, and he explained to you how even if that WAS the only issue, it's not being addressed.
You refusing to acknowledge the content of his response is pretty telling that you're just talking out of your ass.
Resale DOGSHIT value, outdated tech year over year, battery replacement cost anxiety, garbage styling on EVs, heavier weight eats through tires/affects braking/handling performance, lack of sound which many likely whether you want to admit it or not.
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Developers don't like spending money unless they have to. If they don't think that people will see it as an important amenity, they might skip it.
Also potentially problems with local electrical infrastructure depending on the location
Agree, a huge issue is broken stations. When I get gas I’m never worried every pump at the station might be down. It just works. DC Fast Chargers that aren’t Tesla? Best of luck.
Even if a while gas station goes down, there are few places in the country where you'd be stranded from that. We might get to that point with EV's but we're a long way off.
I think the supercharger network + destination charging network is fast, plentiful, reliable and while tesla has been successful, it’s nowhere near “game over”
my current daily (normal car) has had its brake rotors for 150,000 miles and its current pads for 80,000. replacing them all with top-quality parts will eventually cost ~$300. the idea that brakes are a huge service issue for normal cars is extremely overblown. and electric cars need their brake fluid changed every bit as frequently as normal cars.
Only get 250 miles before needing to get gas so if I drive 70miles, gotta get gas every 3 days. For my EV, I plug it at home and regain that 70miles every night. It’s great cutting out gas station trips atleast for one of my cars
Same as yours. “Choosing to get ripped”. THATS MY POINT. Normal people don’t want to fight dealers with this bs. Electric cars you don’t have to. Or at least it gives them less opportunity.
I did my neighbors rear brakes yesterday because they were making a horrible noise. Stuck caliper slide pins, 1hr with a can of brake clean and a brush and $50 pads and he's good for years
20% YoY doesn't mean much when market share is in the single digits
> in what might be the slowest year of increase
Doubtful with the tax credit cuts on the horizon
but chargers are already available and convenient no? You don’t think there’s other issues with RVs e.g. cost, capability?
The lightning has access to the supercharger network, why isn’t it outselling the f150? it’s not only an infrastructure issue
For me to drive 3 hours north, I will have to do a 20 minute detour 2 hours in to charge then another 20 minutes to get back to my original spot. That's not convenient. Get out of the city and you'll see chargers are not everywhere.
Due to my work I live between two cities. 120 miles apart. I'm a homeowner in one city and rent an apartment in the other. I'd be interested in an EV, but the charging situation at my apartment gives me pause. My apartment neighbor has lived here for 3 years and drives an EV. There are charging spots provided by the apartment, but there aren't enough. My neighbor gets home from work, circles the complex in his car to find a charging spot. Sometimes he finds a charger, sometimes he doesn't as they are all occupied. Sometimes the spot he finds is way on the other side of the complex. Not at all convenient. I like to park near my apartment unit.
Many in this country are not home owners. Renters are unlikely to adopt EVs, regardless of price, until they can be confident that they will be able to conveniently charge at home.
\> They are set and forget
But they're not. You still have to service the brakes, replace cabin filters, check fluids, replace wipers and tire rotation is generally recommended, sometimes you need a coolant change. And tires wear out faster and will also need to be replaced. And while that's overall less *scheduled* maintenance, who knows what unscheduled repairs need to be made.
The fact that someone needs to bring their car in for scheduled service once or twice a year at their leisure isn't really a major impediment to ownership.
\>once people try one they won’t switch back.
That's certainly untrue as a categorical statement. Surveys of EV owners find 46% of Americans are likely to switch back [https://executivedigest.sapo.pt/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Mobility-Consumer-Pulse-2024\_Overview.pdf](https://executivedigest.sapo.pt/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Mobility-Consumer-Pulse-2024_Overview.pdf)
Huh? It pretty clearly says 29% would *consider* switching back to ICE, which means 71% of EV owners would not consider going back to ICE.
Realistically, unscheduled maintenance problems are far worse on ICE cars, with all of their gaskets that fail in 60k-120k, spark plugs, coolant hoses are far more prone to failure due to the higher temperatures involved.
Early Teslas had some problems, and Leafs have under cooled batteries, but realistically, you can expect to drive an EV further without problems than an ICE car, and that’s reflected in their much longer powertrain warranties.
\>t pretty clearly says 29% would *consider* switching back to ICE, which means 71% of EV owners would not consider going back to ICE.
Globally vs. United States, but regardless, disproves your claim that "once people try one they won’t switch back."
"Realistically, unscheduled maintenance problems are far worse on ICE cars"- but that's empirically false. *Theoretically* sure, EVs should run better, but they haven't.
\>but realistically, you can expect to drive an EV further without problems than an ICE car
No. That's not in line with Consumer Reports past reports or future expectations for existing EVs. Rivian's in the crapper, Tesla's in the bottom third, Kia and Toyota's EVs score far worse than other ICE models. In theory, eventually, EVs will be more reliable than ICE cars, but at present the EVs available on the market today are more prone to issues. A lot of those issues may have nothing to do with the EV itself being an EV, but just the same it makes EVs less reliable.
"that’s reflected in their much longer powertrain warranties."
No, that longer powertrain warranty is *necessary* to sell the cars to very wary customers buying models without a track record and a history of horror stories. Same reason why Toyota warranties are relatively modest versus something like Kia.
There is also the fact that it takes forever to charge an EV. Fueling up a gas car takes 5 minutes at most. Nobody wants to stand around for half an hour at a charging station
I don't get it to be honest. I live in the midwest, not California, and there are literally dozens of chargers within a 20 mile radius.
The charging network is fine now. The problem, I think, is the people living in apartments who can't get chargers installed there. I definitely sympathize with them.
the "anxiety" about range & charging time is based on the more fundamental fact that lithium-ion batteries are dogshit technology. sure, if you can charge on every block, you're less likely to get stranded, but the fact that you even need to think about it is the problem.
Do you not think about running out of gas? Does the fact that you have to get gas every 300 or so miles mean gas engines are dog shit? I’m genuinely confused.
I’ve ran out of gas before, and back when I could barely afford it I had range anxiety all the time on my gas powered cars. Lithium-ion batteries are pretty good tech, if obviously imperfect.
Being able to charge my car in a couple hours at my home has been freeing. I love driving past gas stations without a second thought.
also agree, it is about that simple
Now there is a lot more too it, but that is maybe the biggest thing realistically in the near future that would impact the most. If they KNEW a fast charger was available every 50 miles combined with:
quality charging stations
education that their gas cars don't go 800 miles, and charging isn't going to take you THAT damn long
as well as continuously improving overall range and charging speeds
Ultimately we'll have tech advances that leads to greater range without needing to dramatically increase battery capacity/cost but that's not around the corner
I had a Tesla Model 3 and I drove it across half the country. Was pretty surprised at how quick it charged. On a huge road trip you're rarely staying at the pump and flooring it back on the interstate. Usually theirs bathroom breaks, food/drinks etc. Out of the several stops I made when I would go walk in the store and pee, grab some food or snacks, only once was the car not ready to go. It's great to get out and stretch and walk around anyway. That combined with tech that helps drive for you makes you much less fatigued when you arrived. Once we parked at a Supercharger, drove the other car across a big parking lot to a Wendy's. Go in, wash our hands and order. Car was ready to go before we even got our food.
It's like renewables in general, it makes a lot more sense with private homeownership but that's trending down overall for a lot of reasons. I don't see the developers of these 5-over-1s popping up everywhere throwing lots of PV on their buildings, it might impinge the view of the Bonefish Grill below it.
>it might impinge the view of the Bonefish Grill below it.
As someone surround by suburban town-center hell I find this a lot more funny then it should be.
When I lived up in Nova I always thought they called them Town Centres(tm) for the same reason cul-de-sacs are named for the trees that were turned into pulp chips in order to make them.
> I don't see the developers of these 5-over-1s popping up everywhere throwing lots of PV on their buildings
The developers don't pay for the electricity; the building occupants do. If developers had to pay for the building's electricity use for 15 years at residential rates, you bet they'd be looking into solar, wind, and battery storage.
The building construction industry is a catastrophe. Corporate clients know this, but I don't think homeowners (including condos) know how cheap and wasteful builders are with their projects. The industry as a whole is stuck in the last century and seems resistant to doing anything to modernize their approach and create a better product for occupants while also lowering their costs long-term.
The older I get, the more I realize how many industries are catastrophes.
Capitalism can drive innovation, or it can spur laziness. It feels lazy right now.
Yeah most industries just feel like they're content to squeeze customers and keep the barriers to entry high so that nobody new can get in and innovate. Tesla went through it. Legacy auto tried to block them for years as they were getting off the ground. Capitalism seems more inclined to protect the in-group than to drive innovation from newcomers and push the whole industry forward.
If consumers demanded those features in the home they’d be built in, having developers install them and eat the cost just results in higher home prices that buyers don’t want to pay.
If consumers are demanding it as a necessity, then you wouldn't need to mandate it. The reality right now is that the share of EVs (I say as someone who drives an EV) is relatively small. I factored my ability to charge into where I chose to live, many do not.
What I meant was that developers don't include wind or solar in their projects because there's no monetary reason for them to. It increases costs but doesn't benefit them. You'd have to incentivize them to include it.
It gets tricky with homeowners because despite a home being a long-term purchase, most don't want anything with a long payback time. So if you as a developer include solar with no incentive to do it and then price the home or building higher as a result, you have to compete with comparable homes that are less expensive, as well as against uncertainty about solar payback periods. I like the way California does it in principle, which is to require every new building to have solar. But apparently in practice it doesn't work as intended.
I’m not sure whether we see rooftop solar or not is the right question, which is some mixture of renewable share of production, environment (how conducive the area is to renewables), and cost. I’m not sure California is succeeding given those variables.
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Maybe I’m conveying my point poorly, as that was mostly the point I was making. The developer is doing what they do to make money, just like most folks do their job not because they love it but because they want to earn income.
Developers put in a lot of items that are not strictly required by law into home to make them sell better. I don’t know a code that requires tile instead of surround in showers, but folks seem to prefer it. The same goes for wood floors instead of laminate.
Developers sometimes do offer solar as an option to folks contracting before construction starts. What they are generally not doing is preemptively installing those things. That’s because a buyer is generally not willing to fork over the extra 20-30k up front to pay for the added cost. It’s mostly not worth it to folks. If they had an extra 20k in the budget they’re more likely to buy more square footage.
So I think we agree. I don’t think the solution is mandates though. If the country just taxed carbon, perhaps cutting income taxes to make it revenue neutral, then folks would make optimal decisions to minimize environmental harm anyway. I’m not sure mandates or subsidies are really the most logical step.
New buildings with parking should be required to have a certain amount of EV charging and have the infrastructure in place to add more to regular parking spaces.
Comments like that are a good reminder that a large portion of the population simply can't think about a topic any further than the most simple, surface level concept.
Dude just hears "add charger to parking lot" and thinks hey that's the same as "add gas pump to parking lot" because both concepts include the words add and parking. Their brain just doesn't go even half a step further down the logical chain and they type out their dumb comments.
I’m just shocked more businesses don’t add a ChargePoint station or whatnot to their lots. Seems like a great way to bring in business and employee benefits. Having to drive across town just so you can justify charging while shopping is just asinine.
I’m waiting for the 450-500 mile ranges becoming more standard. I, my family, I’m sure most of us with cars that have a place we work, travel, recreate, that is a couple hour distance yet a trip we make fairly frequently, that’s where EVs get annoying.
I’ve paid $.20/kw at ChargePoint which I think is fair, doesn’t have to be free. My wife has free chargers at her work but problem with that is they’re always full you can rarely depend on one being open
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> I’m just shocked more businesses don’t add a ChargePoint station or whatnot to their lots.
That's what happens when you don't have something like the EU mandating it.
Let me easily monetize my outdoor personal charger and you would have a bunch more available.
But nobody is going to download twenty apps to do it… just swipe / tap to pay and charge.
Once such a technology is invented, we could use it as a single, easy, instant, secure payment method for every gas station on the planet too! Oh well, too bad money doesn't exist yet.
Yeah imagine if every gas station required you download their app and create an account with all your information that they will eventually sell / lose in a hack.
Circle K gives a 10 cent/gallon discount for enrolling in "EZ Pay," which allows them to directly debit your checking account instead of paying credit card fees. No way am I giving a gas station that kind of access.
Home charging is the real deal breaker. Getting 2 car household to get one EV as a commuter car is a much better goal. They can be cheaper with smaller batteries. This push for 100 percent is just not realistic or practical yet.
Even if we had a perfect public charging network most people do not want to deal with the charge times on longer trips. I can't even imagine what holiday weekends would look like with mass EV adoption.
> Getting 2 car household to get one EV as a commuter car is a much better goal.
That's known to be unpopular, but you do you.
> This push for 100 percent is just not realistic or practical yet.
There is no push for 100% today. The push is for a lot more in a decade, and this article about new charger installations is an example of progress that will make such a goal realistic and practical.
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>A 2024 study found that about one in five EV charging attempts at public stations fail.
Until this shit gets figured out, no one will give a shit about pita ev's
There's a public garage 1 block from me that has many L2 chargers that you can use overnight. Like everything else related to EVs, things vary based on your local circumstances.
Right. Unless they're exactly where I am already it's a hassle.
It's also expensive enough to erode a lot of fuel savings unless it's part of some unsustainable free charging scheme a business or city puts up for memeing, but of course those chargers giving free power are going to be disproportionately at capacity to the point I wouldn't reliably be able to make use of them for the time I was planning to be at the location to begin with.
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