This is a real problem that I've been hearing many people bring up, and Tesla's silence is not a good sign.
Some of the comments in this thread though are absolutely batshit.
>Some of the comments in this thread though are absolutely batshit.
Elon could walk into some of these people's houses and fuck their wife, shoot their dog and shit in their pillowcase, and they'd still spin a 800 word comment on how it's the "correct" course of action and really not all that bad
I don’t think there will be any changes in the US. Model 3 is just too cheap to pass on it.
In Germany, the leasing rates are horrendous and we love leasing. And we do have some German EVs that are similarly priced. They are much better cars but they are pretty bad at being EVs, sadly.
> The IONIQs are a tough sell (they suck as a car but are very capable EVs)
What do you mean the ioniq suck as cars? Lol
I do agree the model 3 being so dirt cheap, is a major benefit for Tesla. They are going to be cutting every single corner to make it cheaper.
It’s someone living in Germany and used to Mercedes, BMW, Porsche.
A Plaid for example might be better than a Taycan in some EV specs, but suck balls to drive compared to the P.
Same with an i4 M50 vs Model 3. BMWs are much better to drive (better handling, steering, brake, and build quality, even tho it dropped since the Exx generation).
>Here in Germany, the leasing rates are horrendous and we love leasing. And we do have some German EVs that are similarly priced. They are much better cars but they are pretty bad at being EVs, sadly.
What about the iX3? Is it good/bad/heh? I know the iX is wildly expensive and nobody here in the US is leasing them. They are offering 15K USD credit towards a lease.
If it is that obvious, put all your money in then.
Haven't we learned that there is not guarantees anymore with what is going to happen? Logic is defied everyday in this world.
They're not shit but they're not fully baked either. I think part of the problem is the idea that Tesla's are either the best car ever or the worst car you can buy. There are tradeoffs, they have a lot of cool technology and they do have some really impressive engineering. That being said, for the price point, the quality of both build and touch is definitely lacking for me. Tesla has done a lot of good and definitely pushed the boundaries of other auto makers, I think it's foolish to dismiss their cars as crap.
Nah, it’s the exact opposite. Reddit hates Musk so much (rightfully so, he sucks) that everything he ever touches has to be bad. A Tesla couldn’t ever be a good car because it’s Elons car. Which honestly is just a fucking stupid opinion.
Wasn't he talking about the other way around? Ie: Reddit's cirklejerk hate boner for everything related to Tesla and Elon Musk? I haven't seen a positive comment in like months. Just sentiments like yours.
Anything remotely positive about Tesla gets downvoted and Anti-Tesla Circlejerk always gets to the front page. That’s even true for the EV sub.
It’s their simple logic that because Musk is a trash human being, everything under his name has to be trash. Which is an incredibly stupid opinion.
Tesla had good car engineers. They all left after getting their chops to work for other companies. Rivian and lucid were big winners there.
What's left is the mediocre teams. And nobody there really gives a shit anymore.
Tesla is really in a bad place right now. All of their new vehicles coming out are not compelling and are up against stiff competiton. I'd be surprised if tesla sells 75% of their current volume in 3 years.
Tesla had an early lead with some excellent engineers. It seems like they blew that. Now their more like nissan or stallantis.
"When the computers malfunction, it disables not only the Autopilot and Full Self-Driving modes, but more commonly used features like the vehicle's extensive suite of cameras, its GPS, navigation features, and active safety features, the site found."
Yeah, that's actually the correct behavior but somehow this article dramatizes it to be a bad thing.
If the chip processing these inputs is unreliable, then the only solution is to not trust it and disable whatever other components rely on the chip's output.
I don't think "correct" is the right term. Things like cameras and GPS should probably operate independently of self-driving capabilities? Arguable - systems should gracefully degrade rather than everything exploding especially if the systems that they depend on have high failure rates.
There are two Tesla ADAS ASICs on the PCB, so it should be somewhat redundant. This might be the graceful degradation, one ASIC failed so disable all functions that use them. Granted, I'm not sure why it takes out GPS and cameras - that makes it sound like the whole self-driving PCB is dead to me, but I don't work there so I'm not sure.
> There are two Tesla ADAS ASICs on the PCB, so it should be somewhat redundant.
There's no redundancy. Tesla was underestimating the required computational power when they made that claim.
Wait, you're right. I remember reading somewhere they had to split a single instance of software between both ASICs at some point now - dunno if that applies to HW4 or just 3. But it might explain why everything goes down if it's just a single failure and not the whole board taking out both ASICs.
It'll be interesting to find out what the actual cause is, as someone that does embedded software I've seen many a weird failure in my career.
Ask greentheonly or search for posts they have made around the place. I'm not going to tag him because I think he steps way outside his zone of competence, but as a hacker he knows what the software is doing.
Just various public things for me, from EV/automotive news sites. Everything Tesla does is picked up by media and reported on like crazy of course. At some point a while back I read about the redundancy on the HW3 computer going away as FSD grew to need both ASICs, but I do not recall where.
My suspicion is that the system is failing the pre-drive components check that car does when you get in and turn it on.
Once it fails, it is disabled for the duration of the drive despite the vehicle otherwise operating normally.
I say this because, unless I’m wrong, there hasn’t been a single case of the computer catastrophically failing mid drive. Issues only arise in between drives.
So if it is failing mid-drive? It’s falling back on redundant components to complete the drive…where it then proceeds to disable itself at the next systems check.
I think that was a non-technical person’s description of what happens when the computer crashes - UI goes away, so you can’t use the navigation features or lane change cameras while the computer reboots. FSD, which also uses that computer, would obviously be unusable too.
\>gracefully degrade rather than everything exploding
I think I disagree. Drivers get used to a certain level of system competency. If the system still technically works, just worse, I think it will lead to more issues than a sudden "system disabled" notice followed by no assistance.
But yeah, a fallback would be nice.
Yes, the term for that is loose coupling. The systems should be minimally dependent upon one another where feasible. When hardware is involved, however, that can be a more expensive approach.
Yes, I agree with you, in ideal world camera processing would be a different hardware than the one responsible for GPS processing, however that's clearly not the case in this particular situation.
That's why I'm saying it is the correct behavior. Not correct in void and ideal world, but correct in this particular scenario.
It's pretty bad when half the shit doesn't work.
> If the chip processing these inputs is unreliable, then the only solution is to not trust it and disable whatever other components rely on the chip's output.
That's not what's happening. Everything connects through the computer, so when the computer goes down everything goes down. It's not a matter of not trusting inputs, it's a matter of shitisbroken lol.
Took the ABS controller out of my 2005 Audi A6 (sent it in for refurbishment) and boy was that fellow connected.
Every other subsystem started crying out for help. Fuel consumption was infinite. Couldn’t activate the parking brake because I might be moving, couldn’t open the trunk. Both were while the car was in park, but the engine on….
Modern cars have more than 1 computer.
The article refers directly to the self-driving computer, which, you can infer by simple deduction, is separate from other computers as the cars are still driveable.
The self driving computer is the infotainment computer and handles almost all the non-critical functions. Yes, I know the critical driving components are a separate system (I did say half the shit), that doesn't excuse the fact that a new car is being reduced to just "drivable".
I mean, this kind of depends on your definition of "just driveable", I assume things like ESP and ABS still work, so the car is still functional.
I agree that it's a bad design to have all these systems be tied up in a single point of failure, but here's anecdotal evidence from my Supra:
During snow driving, if snow covers some of the parking sensors, all safety features will be turned off as well. It doesn't matter that it's only few sensors, completely unrelated to the forward facing camera, it all gets turned off.
All German cars have different modules (computers) for those functions and they are independent.
This full integration is teslas strength and weakness.
Yep, it’s what makes their system so incredibly fast and responsive. And also allows long term software support etc.
It has its downsides (as you can see) but it’s still a very good approach, because German cars have like 1000 different modules that all need their own interface to communicate with other systems.
>because German cars have like 1000 different modules that all need their own interface to communicate with other systems
ALL cars do that. its called CANBus. Germans are moving to ethernet, since signals can be encrypted. I think BMW EVs are all ethernet based so complexity is greatly reduced and stuff is more tightly integrated/secured.
Tesla's somewhat blank slate approach has had them use far fewer modules than other automakers, moving more functions into fewer controllers.
This has enabled lower hardware costs, but also enabled the potential for issues like exactly what's being described here.
Other brands seeing the market effectively validate the tesla approach has them following suit, so I expect similar issues to arise in other brands, unfortunately.
That doesn't make sense to me. I don't design cars but have set up computing systems and architectures for clinical systems. If something is labeled as high criticality it has redundancies. Other auto manufacturers already do this instead of trying everything through a single point of failure the way Tesla's do.
The one pretty key point (IMO) in all of this is that the FSD computers are not exhibiting issues mid-drive. At least, not from what I've come across when reading.
If they are, it's not noticeable by the drivers until after the vehicle shuts down and then is attempted to be driven again.
This does, again imo, make a difference.
These cars run through a litany of checks before they deem themselves safe to drive.
If a critical system is determined to be out of spec, you'll get a warning and won't be able to shift into drive. If something is determined to have gone wrong mid-drive, you'll get a warning based on how critical the problem is. As a similar, real, example - "Autopilot features temporarily unavailable. Features may be restored on next drive".
My guess here is that the FSD computer is failing, at some point, and then not passing a set of parameters to continue operating on the next drive. That said... it's not technically a 'critical system' (steering, brakes, bms, etc.) so the car determines that it's still safe to drive.
Should these computers be shitting the bed mid drive, it's likely that redundant systems are taking over until the drive is complete... and then disabling entirely.
That said, whatever the issue is...it's clearly not something that Tesla has come across in the past/in their testing. There is no warning baked in telling you that the computer is down or that some systems may not be available. It simply shuts down and doesn't start again.
In FSD, if something fails, it just stops FSD and becomes a regular "dumb" car. Cruise control in a 2005 Civic isn't 100% reliable, either. If it breaks, it just can't be used.
FSD--and even Tesla as a whole--is definitely NOT 100% reliable. I know too many Tesla owners and have ridden in enough to know they are not as well made or reliable as pretty much any other brand.
Well, don't call it 'correct' if it isn't correct.
It isn't frankly, even a 'graceful' mode of failure compared to other automakers: In most other cars, the ADAS ECU is discrete and not the primary port of entry for camera inputs. If your ADAS, if it fails, just fails, and the cameras stay working as they're linked to a different ECU. Mercedes actually has fully-redundant boards and power backups for the L3 S-Class, and if you want to be a stickler, that's the 'correct' way to do it.
In theory, many automakers will soon be transitioning to an architecture which is more similar to Tesla's, but everyone's going to have a different take on the exact layout and failure modes, and more importantly, everyone's going to have a different testing regime for their boards.
First of all, here's what I've posted in this thread:
"here's anecdotal evidence from my Supra:
During snow driving, if snow covers some of the parking sensors, all safety features will be turned off as well. It doesn't matter that it's only few sensors, completely unrelated to the forward facing camera, it all gets turned off."
I really don't understand what you're arguing here, we're not talking about how the design could've been improved, because that's obvious. I'm talking about the actual procedure when the architecture is what it is and how shutting down these systems is a better solution than potentially arriving at incorrect decisions.
Single point of failure is always bad, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
>I really don't understand what you're arguing here
That much is clear.
You're missing what the article is describing, missing the difference between your Supra and the Tesla units in this story, and now mouthing off about it. The system isn't just walling off ADAS because of degraded capability — the *compute hardware itself is failing*, and all associated non-ADAS systems are failing with it.
In this case that means everything from auto windshield wipers, to gps-guided navigation, to cameras, *including the regular backup camera*. Auto high-beams, auto-headlights, and auto-dimming mirrors are all failing as well, as these things are controlled by the ADAS ECU on Tesla cars. I don't own a Supra, but I'm pretty sure all of those things are not happening on your Supra when it gets some snow on a parking sensor.
>I'm talking about the actual procedure when the architecture is what it is and how shutting down these systems is a better solution than potentially arriving at incorrect decisions.
It isn't the just ADAS asking you to clean a sensor. The problem isn't decision making. The system isn't just blocking you from engaging Autopilot. Literally the failure is preventing drivers from using their NHTSA-mandated backup cameras. This is **not a 'good' outcome**, even in the context of ADAS board failure.
You can go to r/TeslaModelY and read the reports yourself:
["We bought a model Y a month ago and the update seems to have fried a board. None of the cameras work or the GPS. We likely wont get it fixed until February."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/1hhafn0/new_model_y_hw4_computer_issues/)
["All cameras out. Massive blind spots due to camera dependent design. No navigation. No real supercharging speeds because it is winter and your battery relies on nav to know when you’re going to precondition. No cruise of any kind. No auto windshield wipers. No emergency braking or collision warning. No lane keep assist or departure warning. No auto headlights on/off or auto high beams. No auto dimming mirrors (they stay dark unless you turn them off.) These are all camera dependent features except for GPS."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/1hfv91u/comment/m2fdalc/)
This is bigger than just *"oops, snow on sensor, no autopilot for you".*
It’s wild how much of the auto features get turned off in the car. After reading that, I realize that my 2005 Subaru has none of those features. Except regular cruise control. Haha
Holy fucking shit it's way worse than I imagined, I didn't do a deep dive and focused on what the article is describing, but it seems much worse than what't written there.
I see your point and thanks for correcting me. I think we got into discussion from completely different POV's and I did not have the knowledge of the things you just posted about.
Sorry for the snarky remark, next time, please just unload this kind of knowledge upfront and I'll be happy to be proven wrong!
We're good, don't sweat it. 🤝
You're right, if you don't read all the way into with the specifics and just gloss over the article it doesn't *seem* like much special. It's once you realize that it is causing a cascading failure to multiple basic functions — and that customers are being told they need to wait months for replacements on brand-new vehicles — that you realize the level of clusterfuck it is.
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I've purposefully asked every Tesla owner I know what they think of Musk - they all hate him.
I've asked every bro-diesel truck owner I know and they love Musk, hate Teslas.
All I'm saying is...based on a small sample of 10 or so owners I know, the Tesla owners and Muskites are two distinctly opposite groups, one worships the person, another worships the earth-saving product.
Dig into some of the Tesla related subreddits. They come very close to *actual* worship it him.
Tesla people and bro dozer people are both detestable idiots I avoid.
You think bad actors won't be able to fugure that out? That's not even farfetched dude. And even without the possibilitity of foul play, trusting machines to drive us on roads at high speeds is beyond idiotic because of the chance of failure and malfunction. Tinfoil hat my ass.
> trusting machines to drive us on roads at high speeds is beyond idiotic because of the chance of failure and malfunction
Why is it any more idiotic than trusting *other people* on roads at high speed?
People are staring at their phones, drunk, half asleep, or even when they're trying their best are often times simply just have shit spatial reasoning skills and suck at driving.
Automotive and air plane engineering are vastly different. Airplanes have tons of redundancy built in and we are also expecting cars to deal with more variables than a plane.
They're past making reliable and innovative solutions. Now Elon is going to manipulate the government into enriching him further. I have no idea if he's going to take TSLA with him or not.
So how many cars are affected? They sell like 150,000 cars a quarter. I’ve not seen this reported outside the cited Electrek article by Fred Lambert, a man who pumps out Tesla FUD like it’s his job.
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If you buy a Tesla you're a bootlicking idiot.
If you still own a Tesla your window for resale or trade in is rapidly closing.
I fucking cancel Uber rides if it's a Tesla, I'll never get into one of those piles of shit ever again.
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That’s extreme. My model S held up great to 125k miles. 8 years, 125k miles and it was a wonderful car.
I really only sold it because Elon went nuts and didn’t want to support him in any fashion anymore. … my specific car was objectively great though.
It's frustrating to think how much better off the company would be if they had a CEO who didn't spend all day yelling at politicians on Twitter, or force them to commit significant engineering resources to boondoggles like the Cybertruck.
Panel gaps and "FSD in n+1 year" promises aside, the cars are fine.
Its.... fine. I'm just leasing it due to the absurd incentives that were available. When I signed in Sept between dealer discount, incentives, and the insanely high residual GM gave it I got mine for $400/mo +tax, $0 down (some due at signing for taxes/fees), for 24 mo / 15k year lease.
It drives great, super quiet, comfy, and decent interior space.
I miss autopilot (I don't have super cruise) and the zip of the P100D. Rango estimates seem much more accurate on the Lyriq, and with the NACS adaptor I still get the supercharger network ... 90% of the reason I bought the Tesla in the first place as opposed to another EV.
With that said, glad I leased it vs. bought it... I think they're going to depreciate hard and fast. If I was to buy another EV it would be Lucid.
Thanks. I agree on leasing. Tech is moving too fast and depreciation is insane. I’d have a cheap EV lease in the driveway right now if Texas wasn’t literally the worst state in the union to lease in (6.25% of MSRP due at signing for taxes).
Those off lease Lucids are going to be so tempting in a year or two. They’ll be in the 30s soon.
Thanks. I agree on leasing. Tech is moving too fast and depreciation is insane. I’d have a cheap EV lease in the driveway right now if Texas wasn’t literally the worst state in the union to lease in (6.25% of MSRP due at signing for taxes).
Those off lease Lucids are going to be so tempting in a year or two. They’ll be in the 30s soon.
Eh, I think that's just the Reddit hate boner. I have a relative with a 2018 Model 3 that was bought new and has 150k miles. Zero maintenance except for tires, cabin air filter, and wiper blades. Battery degradation is barely there either. And this is an early production Model 3, the new ones are *much* better built.
I'm a tech and work on them regularly. If it isn't the B pillar falling off the steering wheel starts to peel, the fake wood peels, rear panel in trunk breaks. I replace side cameras all the time, the lift strut goes out in the trunk all the time. A lot of times it breaks the rear window when it does. Rear suspension issues. I could go on and on. It's just common issues that happen on a ton of the vehicles. When people ask me about EVs I tell them anything but a Tesla.
Well every car has its failure points, but as a tech you're *only* seeing the ones that break. There's hundreds of thousands of Teslas on the road without issues, and you wouldn't encounter them because they wouldn't enter your shop. I think that skews your perception.
I have a ton of complaints about Teslas. For sure. Durability in this regard isn’t one of them. I had a 2021 model Y for three days a few weeks back and I never would have guessed it had gone 110k miles if it didn’t say so in the app. Inside out it had held up well.
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