Praying that the Residence-Based Taxation for Americans Abroad Act passes 🙏🙏🙏
Posted by Geiranger@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 207 comments
Any Americans in this sub, please contact your representatives in congress and ask them to support the Act. It would mean that Americans living abroad would no longer need to file and pay taxes to the U.S. if you meet a few criteria. It was introduced in congress today.
I've lived outside the U.S. for over 20 years, and I still have to file and pay U.S. taxes. Just my tax preparation alone costs over $1.000 a year. I'm sure there are many more people like me out there.
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
Any idea what it will mean for investments? I recently became dual citizen. I'm now primarily based in the UK. I have a chunk of money in a US investment account, some straight shares, some in ETFs. I also have a stocks & shares ISA in the UK that I intend to max out at 20K GBP every year.
nrdsrfr@reddit
I can tell you that an ISA is pointless because although it’s tax free in the UK, unless you decide to revoke your US citizenship, you will owe any capital gains dividends et cetera to the USA for that one.
So you want your tax free gains? I’m afraid while you reside in the UK, you’ll need to report any USA 401(k) gains to HMRC over here!
I’ve been in the UK for 13 years. You’re fucked.
Consistent_Cat1699@reddit
U.S. income will still be taxed by the U.S., so you’d still have to file any year you have taxable dividend or interest income (or capital gains if you sell). My daughter moved to the Netherlands at 17 and has never worked in the U.S. but under the current rules has to file non-resident taxes every year anyway.
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14207013/maga-republican-income-tax-americans-overseas.html
R0GERTHEALIEN@reddit
You are way overpaying for tax prep unless you have a business or something. Turbo tax can handle FEIE or a FTC pretty easily
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
Just the fact that tax stuff is so complicated that we need to pay others to do it is ridiculous. We shouldn’t need to. Have a read here
National Taxpayer Advocate’s Annual Report to Congress.https://www.taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/reports/2024-annual-report-to-congress/full-report/
Michagogo@reddit
Unfortunately it’s not that simple, or at least in some countries it isn’t. Did that for a couple years, but then switched to a service and discovered that there are extra complications when it comes to e.g. the various pension (and other similar) accounts here — some of which are liquid after shorter terms, not necessarily only at retirement — where the employee and employer each pay in part of the fund, and different approaches regarding how to account for them. IIRC I end up mostly with FEIE, but also some amount of FTC for some of the amounts that go into those funds, and then there’s an additional level of complexity when it comes to withdrawing from them, which partly depends on how the funds were accounted for when deposited. I don’t know all the details because I opted to just pay someone to deal with it (especially once I had some local investments here), but it’s often said around here that trying to just use TT etc. without doing a lot of research first is usually a mistake.
Plsstop403ing@reddit
Unfortunately it’s not that simple. Did that for a couple years, but then switched to a service and discovered that there are extra complications when it comes to e.g. the various pension (and other similar) accounts here — some of which are liquid after shorter terms, not necessarily only at retirement — where the employee and employer each pay in part of the fund, and different approaches regarding how to account for them. IIRC I end up mostly with FEIE, but also some amount of FTC for some of the amounts that go into those funds, and then there’s an additional level of complexity when it comes to withdrawing from them, which partly depends on how the funds were accounted for when deposited. I don’t know all the details because I opted to just pay someone to deal with it (especially once I had some local investments here), but it’s often said around here that trying to just use TT etc. without doing a lot of research first is usually a mistake.
katmndoo@reddit
And probably better to just use freetaxusa.
Tricky_Condition_279@reddit
You can bet that the turbo tax folks are lobbying to kill this bill as we speak
mr-louzhu@reddit
Yeah any type of tax reform they lobby heavily against. Back in the day, they tried to introduce legislation to streamline taxes, where the IRS would just do your refund for you. That would essentially render an entire multibillion dollar tax preparer industry largely redundant in most people's cases. It's easy to understand why they would want the law to remain as nebulous and complex as possible. It's so fucking corrupt.
Ianshaw2019@reddit
Would you really trust the IRS to do your taxes?
VaccinatedApe@reddit
They figure out how much you owe already, that’s their job. You must be slow.
Ianshaw2019@reddit
And you must be an idiot. That is why you file a tax return.
mr-louzhu@reddit
They already do it, lmao. That's the thing. They know how much they owe you on your refund. The system we have now doesn't make any sense. It's currently set up the way it is merely to prop up a multi-billion dollar tax preparer industry.
Strange-Ad4685@reddit
Whether you like it or not, they already calculate it. If they don't like your calculation, they send you a bill.
Chemical_Bee_8054@reddit
special place in hell for ppl like that.
Geiranger@reddit (OP)
Yeah I know it's expensive. I have a business here in Norway. Makes a complicated situation even more complicated.
ImdaPrincesse2@reddit
My Danish husband still has a Norwegian bank account with money in it and he's filing taxes there, both of us in Denmark and mine in America.
YAAAAAY
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
There is a QA Reddit thread, with questions answered by Rebekka Lammers for info that was updated today that is interesting.
alanm73@reddit
Not a major concern for me. Now if they were proposing getting rid of FATCA and/or PFIC then you have my interest…
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
The way i read it, you would not have to think of that if you choose the RBT version election.
ObjectiveHomework424@reddit
Getting rid of FATCA is specifically mentioned!!! Would be awesome
Square-Employee5539@reddit
This bill would get rid of FATCA. I assume PFIC too but FATCA is explicitly mentioned in the bill.
omglolmax@reddit
But if you aren't subject to the tax system in the first place because you reside abroad, then these topics don't apply to you any way
wolferdoodle@reddit
FR. The taxes aren’t the killer but the PFIC suuuuuucks. At least make it a high limit or something
CuriosTiger@reddit
I'm a Norwegian-American who is currently in Norway for Christmas, but I live in Florida. I would like to see this pass, but this post was the first I'd heard of it, and I don't see it having a snowball's chance in hell with the impending change of government.
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
I just read that taxfairnessabroad now has a co-sponsor in the senate. The bill appears to gain more traction. Crossing fingers
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
And here is another new thing that will make life even more complicated. Highly doubtful that any layman understands it. Check out the new us treasury final regulations on 2081 covered gifts. This just has to stop.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
This doesn’t apply to the vast majority of people living abroad. And if you are paying a lot in taxes you will probably have a hard time gaining a lot of sympathy as many people don’t owe a penny until they hit about $150k a year in income.
So it doesn’t apply to most people living abroad. And I’m not certain it should be abolished as you still benefit from the American passport and our global presence and embassy services.
Why not just renounce citizenship?
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
Renouncing costs 2350 usd. And what Embassy services? They are pretty non existent if you ask me.
novacgal@reddit
I still have to file, and that is expensive in itself.
Shteevie@reddit
Been doing it for free for a decade. You just need to look for the irs free file links.
LupineChemist@reddit
Not everyone has a simple income structure.
hellobutno@reddit
You know how often some english teacher in asia buys shares of a company only to later find out it's PFIC, then gets trapped an absolute tax nightmare of a situation because the rule is confusing? A lot. This isn't something that just impacts wealthy people, it impacts low and middle income people too because they can't save any money in a pension, and if they do they run the risk of having to pay thousands in fines because the IRS doesn't tell you if something is PFIC, and can sometimes just decide it's PFIC.
robertleale@reddit
Bad take. Literally every other country does not double tax like this.
Renouncing citizenship means you will be stateless! Not sure you thought this through..
freebiscuit2002@reddit
Renouncing citizenship isn’t even possible if it makes the person stateless. To be eligible to renounce, the person must have another citizenship.
randomthoughts1050@reddit
That's not true. I was surprised to find that out also.
But it would be stupid af to be voluntarily stateless.
Traveling would be ridiculously hard. I'd guess they would have to reapply for their residency visa. Etc.
Type the below into Chat GPT for more info.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
I thought it through. You can become a citizen of the country you reside in. What makes you think becoming a citizen of the place they have lived 20 years is an option?
Here’s the deal: there is a reason this person left 20 years ago and still never changed citizenship. It’s because they enjoy the global benefits of being a us citizen.
And again, it doesn’t tax the vast majority of people. Only the rich ones who frequently take advantage of various citizens services and are a risk of being rescued.
You can make $90,000 before it’s even counted. That means you make somewhere around $130k a year before paying even a dollar in taxes. Why the fuck am I going to go out of my way for some millionaire to skirt taxes?
And yes millionaire because nobody is paying an accountant $1000 a year to file basic taxes unless it’s several Hundred thousand per year.
NotMyUsualLogin@reddit
The ignorance in your last statement is staggering.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
Cry harder
NotMyUsualLogin@reddit
I’m not the one going green with envy here…
wagdog1970@reddit
But you still have to file and fill out FATCA forms. Even if you don’t owe any taxes it’s still a huge pain. And if the US government doesn’t even collect any actual taxes such as when your income is below the threshold, then it’s just a waste of resources for everyone involved.
cubert73@reddit
You really don't have any idea how any of this works, do you? Have you even been outside your state?
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
No never. I’m a 4 year old who hasn’t left home.
ItalyExpat@reddit
You state yourself that the vast majority of Americans abroad don't owe US taxes. What you're advocating for is forcing Americans abroad to spend money for tax preparers to complete tax returns and the US government receives zero Dollars. In fact they are at a net loss needing to process and store these tax returns.
I spent just under $1200 this year for a tax preparer to prepare my tax return. I'm a small business owner abroad and thanks to the Republican's brilliant GILTI law my tax return is typically around 45-50 pages in length. How much do I owe? Zero.
There is zero advantage to the US to continue requiring Americans abroad to file taxes when residents of another country.
vaskopopa@reddit
If the act passes, how long before it is implemented?
It sounds a bit like daylight saving time in California. Every year they vote on something and approve it, but the clocks still change.
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
That’s because it never actually makes it all the way through congress. Usually it passed the house but never makes it through the Senate. They keep trying because a lot of people do want it.
Famous Princeton study says regardless of popularity or need all laws have about 33% chance of passing. That’s all laws both good and bad. They all have the same odds.
hindumafia@reddit
Why doesn't it pass in senate ? How many % are opposing it and why ?
Neko_Dash@reddit
Part of the reason it never passes is because Americans abroad don’t really have representation in Congress. We don’t have a lobbyist on our behalf.
We are told to contact our representative, but we live overseas. Our rep will be more like. “Whatever…I have local constituents to work with, not some guy in Singapore.” Although together we are something like several milllion people who would make something like the 33rd largest state by population [go to Americans Abroad.org to get all the accurate stats], we are a weak, scattered bunch, politically.
FabienLehagre@reddit
If we have achieved this result, it is because we are accompanied by the largest lobbying firm in the United States, Brownstein Hyatt Farber Schreck.
Fabien Lehagre
www.taxfairnessabroad.og
ND_Poet@reddit
Fixed link is www.taxfairnessabroad.org
FabienLehagre@reddit
📅 Save the date!
Join us on January 9th at 1:30 PM ET for an exclusive webinar on Residence-Based Taxation (RBT) and what it means for Americans abroad.
What’s on the agenda? Brandon Mitchener and Robert Mack from Tax Fairness for Americans Abroad a will share their plan to ensure the success of the recently introduced RBT bill in Congress.
📲 Don’t miss it! Register now through the link below and be part of the movement for tax fairness!
https://us06web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN__suA1jx0R264-mNOGUxuMQ#/registration
hindumafia@reddit
My question was for day light saving related bill. Why doesn't senate pass it. I understand for oversees americans, they are small part of voters
eruditionfish@reddit
The daylight savings bill has never gone to Congress at all.
In 2018 California voters passed a proposition that allowed the state legislature to vote to change daylight savings time, but the state legislature hasn't done that (yet).
If the state legislature chose permanent daylight savings time (the more popular option) that also needs approval of Congress, which means there's little incentive to push for it at the state level. Why spend political capital on something that might not have any effect?
estrea36@reddit
This is a just an assumption but it might have to do with the fact that many laws are passed with "add-ons" that help the politicians, like those huge exploitative TOS documents that you have to sign when you download a new app.
I'm guessing people didn't agree with whatever fluff was added to the bill.
Natural_Jello_6050@reddit
Daylight savings time? It was done already in 1972 and repealed back…..
People were kinda pissed that their kids had to walk to school in darkness.
brass427427@reddit
Kids in first world countries everywhere walk to school. US kids have become washrags thanks to spineless parents.
Careless_Phrase_2649@reddit
Well, now that everybody drives their kids to school (even 1 block), this isn't a problem.
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
Not sure but you can look it up. I think a few times the senate hasn’t even take up the vote.
mr-louzhu@reddit
If the law was introduced by a democrat, then it ain't being passed just by virtue of who introduced and sponsored the legislation. Though, bipartisan sponsorship is different.
ElectrikDonuts@reddit
Where's that study? That sounds nuts
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
Search for it. It’s not hard to find.
mr-louzhu@reddit
You mean all laws that aren't supported by powerful corporate lobbying interests.
AllPintsNorth@reddit
Regardless of the Popularity amongst the general population, it’s about 33%.
But it’s direct 1:1 correlation (gets more likely to pass the more popular it gets) between likelihood of passing and its popularity amongst the wealthy elite.
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
You really need to find another accountant because it should not cost you $1000/yr to file your taxes. If you taxes are straightforward you can do it yourself online for less than $50.
Pristine-Ad-4306@reddit
Does this take into account treaties and agreements to reduce double taxation? Or do you just need to know that information yourself?
dzandin@reddit
The treaties do address double taxation. The treaties do not remove the federal law requiring citizens, whether they live in the US or not, to file taxes. Only 3 countries have this law in place - Eritrea, the Phillipines, and the US. (Great company, yes?)
I have coworkers that are dual citizens by birth (born in the US to a non-US citizen). They are required by US federal law to file annual taxes even if they never visited the US again. All of those anchor-babies that the US wants to kick out? They will have to file taxes in the US in addition to whatever country they end up in.
This is absolutely not about paying taxes! Most expats pay zero because of the double taxation treaties. However, even a simple 1040 requires an accountant that is familiar with the tax statutes in each country.
Michagogo@reddit
Would kicking them out not necessarily entail revoking their citizenship?
dzandin@reddit
🤷♀️ I understood that US citizenship must be given up voluntarily (if you are a citizen by birth). But I’m not a lawyer, so 🤷♀️
Naturalized citizens can have their citizenship revoked (I think there was a legal case about this some years ago).
Michagogo@reddit
Yeah, I don’t know the details, but when you mention “kicking out anchor babies”, I don’t know of any mechanism that allows for U.S. citizens to be removed from/prohibited from entering or living in the U.S.
dzandin@reddit
If you deport an illegal alien who has a minor child that is an American citizen, what happens to that minor? Most likely, they will leave the US with their parents. Which then makes those children expats and subject to citizen based taxation.
Outside of taxation, this is an ongoing discussion in countries who have accepted refugees - what happens to the children of refugees born in the host country if the parent loses refugee status? In the US, these children are US citizens. In countries without birthright citizenship, there are residency status questions. Not to mention the moral and humanitarian concerns about family separation.
Michagogo@reddit
Ah, right. Not “kick out” as in literally deport them, but if the parents are being removed… missed that angle entirely 🤦🏼♂️
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
That’s usually why you can’t just use the free systems. The systems charge for the “advanced” features. Regardless it costs nothing to see what it would work out for you.
oreoloki@reddit
In Switzerland a Swiss/US tax team charges 450 francs an hour. Outside of the US this is very specialized and they know it and charge accordingly.
betaruga9@reddit
It costs me this in Camada too, not everyone has an uncomplicated situation.
NevadaCFI@reddit
I paid $1500/yr for tax prep overseas for my Czech s.r.o, (LLC) which was required to own property at the time and my US based S Corp but FBAR filings. My return was about 70 pages and a waste of time as I didn’t pay tax in the US at the end.
ArbaAndDakarba@reddit
It's pure insanity.
theoneredditeer@reddit
You really have no idea. When you own a business overseas, you have to file your foreign business taxes, foreign personal taxes, then US taxes and then do a complete business analysis for your US income. It costs thousands to get an expert to do it correctly. The USA and Eritrea are the two countries that tax non resident citizens. It's a nightmare.
mr-louzhu@reddit
Okay well, you're paying for someone to prepare your US taxes ON TOP of preparing taxes for your own country, as well. I can probably find an accountant who will do my Canadian taxes for $300. But he'll also charge me $300 for preparing my US tax filings. I could do it in Turbo Tax, of course, but it would still cost me money for both US and Canadian filings, since these are done separately.
cashewkowl@reddit
I agree. Look for a different tax prep accountant. I used TieTax for years and paid under $400.
JapowFZ1@reddit
Using FTC and the child tax credit the IRS pays me every year, so as long as that part stays the same…
Michagogo@reddit
I would assume that if that’s the case, you would have to opt out of the new provisions and continue filing full returns the way you do now if you wanted to keep getting the credits.
JapowFZ1@reddit
Pretty sure I want to keep getting free money
Saturn212@reddit
United States and Eritrea are the only two countries that have worldwide income tax.
ndtconsult@reddit
If you spend more than half a year in Spain, your world- wide income AND wealth are taxed. Thailand is proposing the same. For Americans retiring in Spain, it is a giant cluster fuck of annual tax preparation.
Successful-Bowler-29@reddit
So what? Most countries under RESIDENCE-based taxation have the same policy of taxing world-wide income. Spain is not special in this.
ndtconsult@reddit
Correct. My comment was in regards to the one saying only the US and Eritrea have worldwide income tax.
CuriosTiger@reddit
If you spend more than half a year in Spain, you're a tax resident of Spain. The US has the exact same law: If a Spaniard spends more than half a year in the US, even on a non-immigrant visa, they are a US resident for tax purposes.
This kind of law is normal. The kind of law that says you have to pay taxes to the United States even if you have never stepped foot in the United States is not.
Beepbeepboop9@reddit
We get it. Please google FEIE and FTC and stop with these low energy posts
i-love-freesias@reddit
Mainly related to retired expats:
Right now, only the US has the right to tax Social Security benefits. And social security benefits aren’t taxed, unless you make at least something like $25,000 in other income, and then only half is taxed until you make a lot more.
So, if that’s taken away, now we get to pay tax on our benefits to our new country, which probably won’t be as good of a deal.
If you don’t owe taxes, you don’t have to file a tax return at all. Look it up on the SSA website. There’s a calculator titled something like do I have to file taxes. Not hard to find on google.
And you have to ask, what is in it for the US government? What would we be losing? You can’t convince me those legislators have time for this issue, unless there’s something fat to be had, financially.
What could that be? No more consulates? It can’t be good, is my thinking.
Consistent_Cat1699@reddit
U.S. income would still be taxed in the U.S. But expats who only earn foreign income would no longer have to file non-resident U.S. taxes.
A313-Isoke@reddit
That's what I was thinking. I hope you get more upvotes.
i-love-freesias@reddit
Thank you. Fortunately, I don’t live for Reddit upvotes. 😉
lmneozoo@reddit
Trump won't do shit for us peasants
pm_me_ur_bidets@reddit
the peasants making over 120k a year?
Total_Island_2977@reddit
Compared to actually wealthy people, yes: Peasant.
lmneozoo@reddit
Doesnt matter how much you make if you don't have millions in assets outside of your house
pm_me_ur_bidets@reddit
just because someones poor with managing your money doesnt make them peasants. if they arent saving then they are spending 120k a year.
lmneozoo@reddit
Are you a business owner or do you work for someone else?
Geiranger@reddit (OP)
Also, here is the article where I saw that the bill was being proposed:
https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/trump-us-income-tax-abroad-change-fd80df30?st=hGpin2&reflink=article_copyURL_share
Jake_77@reddit
Hate to be a downer but this bill will die in a few short weeks when Congress turns over
Yassssmaam@reddit
Wait, this is what congress is doing with the last bit of time before the circus comes to town? Helping people who got out?
Any improvement is better than nothing but this is way down the list of things I hope they can do something about in the last flicker of somewhat functional democracy…
Jake_77@reddit
This is basically for show. This session of Congress ends in January and when a congressional session ends, all the bills (that haven’t become law) die. So this bill is gonna die in a few weeks.
ever0nand0n@reddit
Trump actually supports this, at least he said so in October...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2024/10/14/trump-vows-end-to-double-tax-for-millions-of-americans-living-abroad/
CuriosTiger@reddit
That's how I know he doesn't. Everything that man says is a lie.
brass427427@reddit
He said grocery prices would go down but now it will be 'very hard'. He said a lot of things.
brass427427@reddit
It wouldn't be the first thing he lied about to grab a few votes. Reducing grocery prices suddenly became 'very hard'.
Organic-End-9767@reddit
Couldn't help but notice the silence in your comment thread...
Mwanamatapa99@reddit
Do the countries you live in not have a tax treaty with the US? That prevents double taxation.
businesspersonreddit@reddit
Great post, OP--preach! I too have lived outside the US for years, and my tax prep costs $2000 to $4000 per year for a professional--usually between 60 to 100 pages. Just as important, I spend probably 20-40 hours a year on it, and it's not even like I can just take a full week to do it! It's spread out all year: Several hours at the beginning of the year to figure out what I owe before mid April to not pay extra late fees; Then gathering the taxes paid info in my local country, and using it to estimate my quarterly estimated payments for the current tax year; Then getting everything ready for the accountant by the summer, but almost ever year he is too busy (or on vacation maybe) in the summer, so he files for delayed submission date...and then by October we wrap it up, just to have 2 months til the end of the year before it starts all over again!
I too am not trying to dodge taxes--Depending on which country I have lived in, I have a roughly similar tax rate as the US (without the $2-4k prep fees). But as a self employed (entrepreneur) American abroad, who has mostly lived in countries without a US tax treaty (note: this includes most countries in the world, outside of Western Europe, Canada, Japan, Korea, Australia, and a handful of others), I pay a 15.3% self employment tax to the US every year.
So yes, this bill would be a much more ethical, humane solution to this unjust dynamic where the US "owns" citizens and claims a right to their income no matter where they live, how long they lived there, or even if they have no intentions of returning! This bill deserves support!
pythonfanclub@reddit
This would obviously be amazing for so many people who just want to live normal, quiet, law abiding lives outside the US without being caught up in punitive laws that were never designed with them in mind. I'm well aware it won't be easy to get this passed, but as more and more people get caught up in this demographics are more on our side than it might at first appear. I just wish instead complaining, or living in denial just because last year none of the common tax traps applied to you, all this people reading this would go donate to the people who made this possible, Tax Fairness for Americans Abroad. They need money to have a fighting chance of getting anything done. That's how the good ol' U S of A works, unfortunately.
brass427427@reddit
Some of us have realized that the US is not a country with citizens, but a business with employees.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
Didn’t Trump say he didn’t want Americans living oversees to even vote?
Fabulous_State9921@reddit
Sounds like "taxation without representation." Which famously got the American Revolution rolling.
Choice_Philosopher_1@reddit
But we'd have to move back to start a revolution this time.
Also I think this is why the tax change precedes any potential change to voting rights.
Bokbreath@reddit
District of Columbia has entered the chat
littlemetal@reddit
He doesn't want anyone to vote. Nor do the rest of the people paying for him.
upvotesplx@reddit
I’m going through the German citizenship process by descent right now and was seriously going to consider renouncing my US citizenship when my fiance and I marry and move to Germany.
If this passes, I’m not going to have to consider that, which would be a massive relief. I’m not even one of the people who would be hit hard financially by renouncation (no investments whatsoever), but I’d rather not give up a citizenship if I don’t have cause to. Fingers crossed.
AmazinTim@reddit
I usually get a healthy refund from my expat US taxes due to the higher income tax rate I pay in my current country. I don’t want that refund to go away
hindamalka@reddit
I literally haven’t had to file in years because my income as a student is nonexistent and we have a tax treaty so even if I was making money up to a certain point, I wouldn’t pay anything because of the treaty with the country I’m living in.
c1z9c8z8@reddit
Why are you paying $1000 for tax prep?
Kartoon67@reddit
Find out by trying to sort out his dual taxes situation.
wombatpandaa@reddit
This would be fantastic! It's pure stupidity that American citizens who live permately abroad are expected to pay taxes for a country they have almost nothing to do with. We are one of only two countries in the entire world who still do this, and the other is Eritrea. Let's do away with this archaic and nonsensical practice.
JewelerFinancial1556@reddit
TBH this double taxation thing is stupid. A lot of my American friends have trouble even opening bank accounts abroad bc the banks just don't want the trouble
PurpleNurple105@reddit
That’s due to FACTA and not a tax issue. Banks need to report what you as an American have in your account and you have to report all of your accounts once the sum of all accounts is over 10,000 dollars. That was Obama.
RockAndNoWater@reddit
You can always give up your citizenship if you don’t want the burden of taxation.
NotMyUsualLogin@reddit
Not really much of an answer given how expensive that is.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
It’s only expensive if you are a millionaire. This is once again a case of rich people begging poor people to carry their burden because they are rich and better than everyone else.
betaruga9@reddit
Lol I am no millionaire (only a couple thousand in savings) but having a self-employed business I get to pay $1000 a year having pros file for me because my situation is complicated. Maybe $1000 to file isn't expensive for you but it is for me!
NotMyUsualLogin@reddit
Being a millionaire is no longer the thing it used to be.
We’ve a 2 m net worth and pay all our taxes like everyone else.
Why do y you just come out and admit that you’re not financially stable and you’re just jealous of those of us that have gone without to put money in retirement.
We live in a house valued at well over half of the guy who works for me. We have a 2001 truck and a 2010 car.
I’m an uneducated numbskull from a boring middle class background.
Sorry if living below our means offends you, but that’s life I suppose.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
But weird of you to just make up a bunch of weirdo shit about me lol.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
lol because I’m not. I do just fine myself. I just don’t whine and cry about how unfair paying taxes is. I one year abroad paid almost $50,000 in total taxes. I just paid them like a responsible adult and didn’t cry about how unfair it is.
I have nothing against rich people. I celebrate their success. I have a problem with rich people crying that it’s unfair to pay taxes to the country that made them rich.
RockAndNoWater@reddit
Isn’t it only $2350? If you’re spending $1k a year in tax prep payback is only two years.
NotMyUsualLogin@reddit
It’s not the fees - it’s the exit tax that gets you.
If you’re a “covered expatriate” then they get to essentially realize all your gains and hit you with that as a “thank you” for leaving. This includes RITHs, ROTH IRAs, 401ks etc.
Sure there can be exclusions one can attempt to leverage, but it can still mount up.
RockAndNoWater@reddit
Roths aren’t taxable at exit if normal withdrawal requirements are met. For the others, tax was deferred, it makes sense they’d be taxed at exit since they weren’t taxed to begin with.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
So the poor millionaires and billionaires may have to pay a bit. You realize you are on Reddit?
NotMyUsualLogin@reddit
There’s a humongous difference between being a millionaire and a billionaire. Like night and fucking day difference. Like 1,000 million difference.
apc961@reddit
No you cannot unless you have another citizenship already. This myth just doesn't die on this sub 😅
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
How is it a myth? I assumed people have common sense and you get citizenship where you are living.
apc961@reddit
That's a huge assumption. I've worked in 5 countries, I was not eligible to apply for citizenship in any of them.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
You almost always can if you work to meet the requirements. I know some places you just never can but in most it can. But you are right. Sometimes it’s way too hard or impossible. But I’m still not going out of my way to make people tax exempt just because they make multiple six figures overseas while still taking advantage of American citizens services. That will never happen.
ultimomono@reddit
Help me understand how can you "work to meet" requirements that require that you have 10 years of continuous residency--other than getting residency and waiting ten years and then 2-5 more years for you citizenship to be processed and get sworn it. Which is what I did and it too me and everyone in my family 13-15 years to become citizens. No one worked at it. We waited.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
Dude said he has lived there 20 years though…
ultimomono@reddit
They said they have lived outside of the US for 20 years, not that they have lived in one country all that time
Shteevie@reddit
You are correct in your comments where you assume that the OP must be a very wealthy person, or at least running businesses in multiple countries to care about this bill.
You're wrong in your comments where you assume that getting foreign citizenship is something available to everyone, or that we'd even want to if we could. Residence and citizenship are different for lots of important reasons.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
But I can say this much: if they are running profitable businesses it’s at least an option almost anywhere.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
That’s fair enough. In my experience it’s not very hard. But then again forget many people here are wealthy Americans living in Europe or Japan. Most places I’ve looked into it’s been pretty easy. I do recall pretty much everywhere in Europe except Spain being really hard.
For me I just didn’t think of it because I have never considered living in a place where citizenship wasn’t an option.
pcl8311@reddit
Best chance is it ends up as a rider on some other tax reform bill. This would save me tens of thousands but I refuse to get my hopes up, too small of a constituency for this to be taken seriously by anyone in Congress.
betaruga9@reddit
Gotta love our system of taxation without representation
brass427427@reddit
It hasn't got a ghost of a chance. And all the knuckle-draggers claiming you should pay your taxes should pay state tax to the state they were born in AND the state where they live. Ignorance can be educated. Stupid is forever.
Silver_Box_8488@reddit
I completely agree—residence-based taxation is long overdue. The current system of citizenship-based taxation creates so many unnecessary headaches for expats. The fact that you’re paying higher taxes in Norway and still have to deal with U.S. filings, plus the associated costs and banking restrictions, highlights how broken the system is.
It’s not about avoiding taxes—it’s about simplifying a process that no longer reflects the realities of modern global living. Many other countries have implemented residence-based taxation successfully; it’s time for the U.S. to catch up. Hopefully, this Act gains traction, and Congress recognizes how it would ease the burden for millions of Americans abroad. Thanks for raising awareness!
tjguitar1985@reddit
I wouldn't get your hopes up on that passing.
GoddessMighty@reddit
It benefits the wealthy epsteinites/diddyers. This could pass.
vladtheimpaler82@reddit
Sorry but expatriates aren’t an important constituency.
There’s many more important issues facing the US like the cost of living crisis.
Plenty of Americans maintain their citizenship while abroad. Unless you’re a multimillionaire, you aren’t paying much in taxes anyways.
hellobutno@reddit
So people that bring money into the country rather than recycling money within the country aren't important? K
Pristine-Ad-4306@reddit
There are always going to be bigger problems. If I have a major health problem that I need to deal with, that doesn't mean I shouldn't still try to take the trash out between trying to deal with that if I can. No one is saying this is more important than whatever else.
vladtheimpaler82@reddit
Personally I don’t believe this is a problem at all. I plan to move abroad one day and still keep my citizenship. If the government gets a steady source of revenue from expats that’s a good thing.
This is only an issue for literal millionaires.
faulerauslaender@reddit
It's ok you think this, but the opinion comes from a place of ignorance and it's something you should probably read up on if you plan on moving.
Taxes are a pain in the ass. The people saying it takes them 20 minutes likely own neither property or businesses, likely do not have to deal with complex situations like foreign pension schemes, and likely don't earn much money. No, you don't have to be a millionaire for this to impact you.
The second pain are the reporting requirements imposed on foreign banks for US citizens doing banking abroad. You generally cannot open an investment account abroad, and since investment accounts are being bundled more and more with regular bank accounts, many of them simply refuse US citizens. This year I was unable this year to open a neobank account (just an app with basic services) and a high-yield savings account because both also had an investment component and refused to take Americans. Tax-advantaged retirement accounts are also a mess and generally have to be left in cash due to PFIC regulations, at least where I am.
Also keep in mind, many US-based banks and brokerages will drop you like a hot potato if you leave the US. Own any US mutual funds? Well if you move you can't. I tried to open an investment account for my newborn this year to start squirreling away for college. Can't do it abroad because she's a US person, can't do it in the states because we're not residents. L
Regulations, taxes, and more regulations. And it doesn't just impact millionaires but literally anyone who lives and works abroad with a normal financial life.
littlechefdoughnuts@reddit
Surely that's the core problem? America is imposing needless bureaucracy on its citizens overseas even though the vast majority don't have anything to settle with the IRS. It's a complete waste of time and money, pursued purely out of a desire to look tough on 'tax cheats' living abroad, even if they have no real stake in America.
I'm not even American and I feel aggrieved for my coworkers who have to jump through this particular hoop.
1ksassa@reddit
The vast majority of US expats don't even end up paying taxes to the US due to FEIE.
This is literally just pointless paper pushing.
Easy target for the DOGE.
hellobutno@reddit
You're forgetting the fact that we can't even invest while overseas because of these stupid ass laws. So goodbye having a pension in a lot of places.
Eric-Ridenour@reddit
But he is mad because he is a millionaire and pays taxes. You know how rich people often are.
Fromzy@reddit
So you’re rich and upset you need to pay taxes…
hellobutno@reddit
It's actually 126k, and it doesn't matter, because we're still taxed on our income by our local country.
PsychAnthropologist@reddit
Oh please! Do you think all American expats are rich?!
Fromzy@reddit
If they’re complaining about taxes when we get our first $105,000 tax free? Yes I think all expats complaining about this are rich…
Meep42@reddit
I thought OP was complaining about how much it costs to file US taxes while abroad, not the taxes themselves. Since they live in Norway they probably pay $0 US taxes. But having to pay $1k usd to file? That kinda sucks.
We had no US taxes due and had to pay $750 to let the IRS know this and I too feel that’s the part that’s lame.
Fromzy@reddit
How are you paying that much? When I lived in Russia it cost me $60 to file my taxes, it’s mind blowing… like why are you paying that much? We get $105k free, there’s a TurboTax for that
Meep42@reddit
Mostly because we had to use an accountant and that’s what they cost. Yes, I feel ripped off. It was our first year and we had to file an extension due to having to file your foreign taxes first then your US taxes. So we didn’t use Turbo Tax.
ImdaPrincesse2@reddit
I'm at poverty level
Fromzy@reddit
Which means you aren’t paying US taxes
ImdaPrincesse2@reddit
Still gotta file. They don't let you not.
Fromzy@reddit
Well I know, but that’s great for things like student loans when you have negative income, my loan payments were $0 because my income was negative. TurboTax and the others charge like $50-60
ImdaPrincesse2@reddit
I don't think that OP is paying an outrageous sum seeing as he's got a complicated return to deal with AND it's Norway. Anything there is expensive but wages are fairly high to offset it.
Fromzy@reddit
What is making it complicated? The process for 95% of expats is simple, it’s one extra form or $50 on TurboTax. Even when I filed a super complicated return for property, two LLCs, w2 wages; and international income it cost me $450… OP is doing something wrong. Also, Republicans are going to make filing taxes even more difficult. If the no foreign tax bill passes, who do you think is going to benefit? You and I saving $50-1000/year or the 1% who will move abroad and pay nothing, saving them millions and robbing children of an education and healthcare?
NeighborhoodMedium34@reddit
I agree wholeheartedly.
hellobutno@reddit
Does anyone know what this would potentially mean for IBR on student loans? Would it be based off our AGI of our foreign income rather than reduced to 0 by FEIE?
Bokbreath@reddit
You do have to file, but you should not be paying US taxes.
Ianshaw2019@reddit
Only the US and Eritrea tax their citizens on their world wide income. Every other nation uses territorial taxation (IE if you live offshore or earn your money off shore, you are not taxed on it). It is time America joined the civilized world (at least on this issue)
PRforThey@reddit
Very few countries use territorial taxation. Most countries use residence based taxation.
Residence based taxation is that you pay taxes in the country you reside in on your global income regardless of where it was earned (including if it was earned offshore in a tax haven).
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/international_taxation
mega_cancer@reddit
I never minded this law because I've never been close to making above the $105,000 (or whatever the exact number is now) limit on exempt foreign income. It sounds like a rich people problem to me.
dallyan@reddit
I’ve never made enough for that to be a worry. lol
QueenScorp@reddit
You still have to file each year and claim the credit which is a PITA
Shteevie@reddit
Takes 20 minutes, costs nothing. Been doing it the same way for a decade.
dzandin@reddit
Are you filing your FATCA & PFIS? If not, better get on it before you get fines and penalties.
Shteevie@reddit
If you manage your income correctly, it's not that hard to hold your assets in places that the IRS can see, and therefore these aren't necessary. My accounts are with local institutions that report to the US on my behalf automatically. Yours likely could be, as well.
dzandin@reddit
If you have ANY kind of financial account (savings, checking, investment, retirement, etc) in a foreign country you need to file these extra forms if ANY of these foreign accounts had a balance over 10,000 USD on ANY DAY of the tax year. Please go read the relevant expat guidance on the IRS site.
Shteevie@reddit
That description doesn’t line up with the info on irs.gov, so I’ll stick with the source.
Plus, I have been audited since leaving the US, and this didn’t come up then. Are you sure you aren’t wasting people’s time sending in forms you aren’t required to?
dzandin@reddit
I got this info from my US CPA as well as an US based CFA.
I’m happy to hear you have simple filings and haven’t had an audit finding.
wagdog1970@reddit
But you have still earned enough to be caught in the dragnet of the bureaucratic nightmare that is filling when you’re outside the country. Because that amount is anything over zero.
dallyan@reddit
If it’s such a nightmare then renounce your citizenship ffs.
Pristine-Ad-4306@reddit
Why take such an extreme choice when you could instead just support sensible tax reform? The answer to problems can't always be just "quit" or "leave" because then nothing would get done. Sometimes people have to actually stick it out and promote good changes.
dallyan@reddit
I mean, I’m not the one to call it a nightmare just to file taxes. lol
wagdog1970@reddit
No I’d rather annoy random strangers on the internet.
mr-louzhu@reddit
Yeah I have to pay for US taxs and Canadian taxes every year, which can easily push north of $600.
dzandin@reddit
More like punishing citizens for living elsewhere.
mr-louzhu@reddit
It's just a reminder that you are the property of Uncle Sam. I mean, you're an American which means you are from the land of the free. But also, you're property of the US Federal Government. You even have to pay them a sizeable fee and jump through tons of hoops if you want to renounce citizenship.
papermoonriver@reddit
You can afford it.
I'm more interested in tax relief for low income people, and for rich AF people paying their fair share.
How about you PRAY for the less fortunate and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's?
Whiny rich baby. People are fucking dying here from lack of basic shit.
The-Purple-Church@reddit
If it takes money away from the government….keep praying!
Pristine-Ad-4306@reddit
More likely to take money away from tax services.
thesog@reddit
Do you have a link to more info about the act?
Geiranger@reddit (OP)
https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/trump-us-income-tax-abroad-change-fd80df30?st=hGpin2&reflink=article_copyURL_share
thesog@reddit
Thanks!
williamgman@reddit
While a wonderful idea... The US wants any and all tax revenue it can get.
Geiranger@reddit (OP)
See a lot of people saying my tax prep is expensive. I know it is! I have a business here in Norway and a rental that makes everything more complicated in the US.