What's up with Honda and Toyota with their failing engines? Honda is recalling 1.4 million cars. More might be affected.
Posted by VinnieIDC@reddit | Autos | View on Reddit | 99 comments
Specifically the 3.5 litre V6. Toyota is also having trouble with their twin turbo V6 that they put in Tundra. I believe Lexus has used this same engine and having main bearing failures.
https://youtu.be/JiN88hbZDuo?si=s8asYVBpb1uZhQBm
MTBooks@reddit
The issue with the tundra engine recall and other models with that engine was metal shavings left in the engine -I forget the exact language. Crappy sure but nothing to do with turbos or chasing mpg or software whatever. Engineering is fine. Manufacturing was the issue. I wonder if being made in Texas has anything to do with it? Mine seems fine but I got the recall notice. New engine will be nice though I guess?
MetalGhost99@reddit
This was found to be false. I've seen it myself after the engines were taken apart. The engine bearings are failing due to the torque. It's a design flaw with the engine.
MTBooks@reddit
Interesting to know. I guess the recall paper was wrong.
mrsw2092@reddit
I doubt it’s an issue with them being built in Texas. That plant has been turning out Tundras for almost 20 years and the Japan built GX is part of that recall too.
MTBooks@reddit
Good point, I didn't know that. I'm seeing all those v35-fts engines are made in Alabama. Looks like they ship them to Japan for the models manufactured there. So not a Texas problem...an Alabama problem? haha
MetalGhost99@reddit
Neither it looks, engines have been taken apart now and its a design flaw with the bearings. They can't handle the torque. Toyota got caught lying about it.
MagicDartProductions@reddit
If you pay enough attention all the vehicles they have issues with are the ones that are made in America and specifically the first few years of the first generation of said model made in America. Number one is growing pains from changing manufacturing plants and number two is just the, to be bluntly honest, shitty workforce we have in the US compared to some other countries. Specifically Japan.
mrsw2092@reddit
Except the Japanese built Lexus GXs are on that same recall. Tundras have also been built in the same Texas plant for over 15 years and every Tundra ever built has been American made and they didn’t have serious issues like this.
MetalGhost99@reddit
Yep the metal shavings is a lie. The engines themselves have a design flaw with the bearings. There are video's confirming this with people taking apart the toyota engines and finding this to be the real issue. Toyota's press department sent out that metal shavings to protect their reputation and they were lying and caught in the act.
frostycakes@reddit
The first gen's insane rusting issues have entered the chat.
mrsw2092@reddit
Only an issue with for people in states with terrible weather. Those of us outside the rust belt don’t have that issue. And going by all the other cars I’ve seen from those states, premature rusting isn’t just a Tundra issue.
frostycakes@reddit
I know a few people here in Colorado who had their Tundra frames rot out. It's so dry here that rust is practically unheard of on vehicles kept here, and I have a Toyota of similar age (but a Japan built car) with no rust to speak of that was largely kept outdoors here in CO.
So what's the excuse there?
mrsw2092@reddit
Point made. Yes the Allison frames rust quicker than the Toyota frames but complaining about rust in places where they salt the roads is like complaining about getting wet at a water park. Those of us where it doesn’t snow aren’t having that issue.
frostycakes@reddit
You don't know what our climate actually is like. Rust is practically unheard of here because it's very dry. Snow does not linger on the ground in the Front Range where the vast majority of the population lives for more than a couple days, and the roads are treated with mag chloride, not standard road salt, to prevent rust issues specifically.
No other trucks have those issues here, and that still doesn't excuse Toyota's piss poor quality control and supplier management in the case of the Gen 1 Tundras.
evand1998@reddit
Toyota did not build the frames. Dana corporation who built the frames skipped key rustproofing steps and led to the easily rusting frames for which they were sued by Toyota
frostycakes@reddit
That's still on Toyota for allowing poorly manufactured frames to go into their vehicles. Where was their quality control? Why did they not audit their suppliers, especially for something critical like a vehicle frame?
The owners of these trucks did not buy them from Dana, they bought them from Toyota. It's on them to ensure their suppliers are meeting standards BEFORE a vehicle is built and sold. I doubt any of Toyota's non-Southern plants (and especially not the Japanese ones) would have allowed something that egregious to happen with a supplier product.
If it's not a J VIN Toyota, it's not worth buying.
mitchumz@reddit
There's tons of skilled workers in USA and North America. We have an underpaid, unmotivated workforce not a shitty one.
MTBooks@reddit
Makes sense. Mine is the first year of that generation. I’ve heard about differences in quality between Korean and US manufactured Hyundais as well.
TheDirtDude117@reddit
Honda's 3.5L V6 with cylinder deactivation has been hot garbage long term for a long time. The change from the VTEC J-Series to the new DOHC engine only made the issue happen sooner.
Toyota had an entirely new engine design and tooling for the Tundra's engine (and the others that used it). Their tooling was causing some metal to be left behind during assembly so that was their issue.
The Tacoma issues with the suspension is due to removing the frame mounted bump stops which are present on the Land Cruiser that uses the same frame.
It's lots of growing pains.
MetalGhost99@reddit
The metal shaving have been found to be false. It's a design flaw with the engines dealing with the engine bearings not able to handle the power and torque. This have been proven by people taking apart the bad engines. You can see the video's on youtube. Toyota was caught hiding it.
TheDirtDude117@reddit
1 year later, but the bearing part revision has been coming for awhile.
waltdiggitydog@reddit
As I’m browsing a new ride. I guess I’ll have to go with faithful Ford. And they’re probably f’ed too.
Ran4@reddit
The Toyota issue was just with their niche turbo V6 engines, the normal 4 cyl hybrid engines are extremely reliable.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
Yes that's correct. However, we are not sure yet if the new turbo 4 in the tacoma is reliable. They haven't had much problems as of yet. They've been having issues with the transmissions though. There's evidence coming out that the 2024 tundras are also affected by main bearing issue
MetalGhost99@reddit
Yep the main bearing issue is a design flaw that they tried to hide. Seems to be only an issue with their V6 twin turbo line from what I have heard. The bearings cant handle the extra stress from the power from the turbo's.
bulldogsm@reddit
they are def fd, read up on f150 reliability, not sure they sell anything else in volume
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
They're selling a lot of Mavericks, which is a new small pickup truck. They're selling more than GM's midsize trucks even
waltdiggitydog@reddit
Well f me. Guess I’ll have to expand my options. Moving off the west coast. Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai. Suggestions are welcomed.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
I would about Kia and Hyundai, overrated piles of junk.
If you're interested in a tough durable pickup truck, look at the Frontier, and the Titan. The titan is on its last model year, might be difficult to find. They have a natural aspirated V8 The frontier doesn't have a turbo as well, it's NA. They're the best pickup trucks on the market currently. (Nissan doesn't put cvts in their pickups)
If you're looking for a car, you can't really go wrong with a Corolla, a Camry, a Mazda 3.
If you have your heart set on a GM car. 2018-2019 Chevy Cruze is good, they had solved most of the issues by then.
ContributionDapper84@reddit
Maz3 base engine appears to be under-stressed & NA.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
If you're looking for a pickup, I would go Nissan. If you're looking for an economy car, Toyota Camry, or Corolla are fine.
troubledbrew@reddit
They're trying to get as much MPG as they possibly can to satisfy the government. The way they do it is by stuffing turbos into cars that really shouldn't have them, using start/stop systems for idling, and cylinder cancellation. All of these things cause problems for longevity. I'm sure there's other reasons, but to me that's the main factor. And it's EVERY manufacturer that sells to the US market.
Ran4@reddit
Turbos have been the norm for over ten years now.
MetalGhost99@reddit
The engines have a design flaw and cant handle the extra power from the turbo's. Bearings are going out in the engines because of it. You can see the engine teardowns on the internet confirming this.
greenerdoc@reddit
Has anyone ever looked at whether the Environmental benefits of MPG gains and efficiency outweighs the carbon impact of increased Manufacturing, transport, weight and other secondary knock on impacts of the improved technology?
Coldones@reddit
I've always wondered this. High-efficiency machinery is typically more temperamental and expensive to fix. Also for weight savings thinner-gauge metals, more plastics, and adhesives rather than fasteners are being used which means less durability. Makes me think newer vehicles are going to end up in the junkyard a lot earlier
Ran4@reddit
That hasn't been the case in the past 40 years. Seems unlikely that it would change all of a sudden.
Coldones@reddit
Just off the top of my head: A lot of early CVT and DCT cars are junk and not worth repairing(nissan, ford, jeep, subaru, hyundai). Early direct injection cars have carbon buildup issues(basically every brand). Early 2010s Toyota engines (2AZ-FE and 2AR-FE) had the “high efficiency” low-tension piston rings, which led to high oil consumption and engine failures. Honda's newer turbo 4cyls have oil consumption and dilution issues(and their "fix" was to push a software update and to tell customers to change oil more frequently). Toyota/Lexus moving away from NA v8 to turbo 6cyl in trucks and SUVS has been somewhat of a disaster so far.
Ran4@reddit
Yes, of course. And it's very, very, very much in favour over more efficient engines.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
100% correct. Also increasingly complex software systems, huge percentage of recalls have to do with software bugs.
Dilderika@reddit
They’ve been cutting corners in pursuit of more profit, banking on their past reputation. If you check out any new Toyota or Honda they’re pretty lackluster in build quality but you will have neighbor Dave talking them up. Their reputation has allowed them to cut corners and it’s catching up.
MetalGhost99@reddit
You can see that in the new Lexus RX compared to last generation which was the GX460. The GX460 uses better materials in the inside while the RX 550 uses cheaper materials.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
What's really frustrating is that despite saving 80% on labour costs on Tacomas as they're all produced in Mexico nowadays. They have a higher price tag than the previous gen which was also produced in the US
MetalGhost99@reddit
Acura still sells their MDX with a non turbo engine. I really hope it stays that way.
JustinMagill@reddit
Subaru is now the most reliable brand! I feel like I am taking crazy pills!
gtluke@reddit
Sober up quickly, your head gaskets are leaking.
aust_b@reddit
Fixed as of a decade ago lol
mortalcrawad66@reddit
But they still leak oil, and break off and kill the engine.
_Sub_Atomic_@reddit
Depends on the Turbo, there are some years that are absolutely terrible and do exactly what you say they do but there are some that hold their ground but the engine can't take the additional boost and pressure. Something else breaks.
greenerdoc@reddit
Do they leak oil with any increased frequency than any other cars? They do consume oil over the years and if you ignore the low oil idiot light it can damage the engine.
nameyname12345@reddit
Jesus man! You take the light out that way it never comes on a cooks your engine! I swear it's like some people were never taught a damn thing about cars!/s
4WaySwitcher@reddit
Even most of the oil burning issues got cleared up around 2020 when they switched to better piston rings. Obviously if you’ve got 100k+ miles on it, then some oil consumption is not unheard of but that’s with most cars.
SatanIsStrongerGod@reddit
ahahahaha
spotcatspot@reddit
Just top off your CSF.
white_sabre@reddit
Cerebrospinal fluid?
spotcatspot@reddit
Si.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
Mazda is quickly becoming one of the most reliable brands. They're in the 2nd spot currently I believe. Honda fell to 15th on some lists.
ekalav83@reddit
Their new engines do have issues https://m.carcomplaints.com/news/2024/mazda-engine-problems-class-action-lawsuit.shtml
Hungry_Fee_530@reddit
Yeah, turbo
nauticalfiesta@reddit
new as in 2016-2020 built engines?
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
They still put a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine in Mazda 3 but it does have a cylinder deactivation system. I don't know how reliable that is considering that GM has been having issues with their cylinder deactivation systems.
nauticalfiesta@reddit
GM can barely build a V8 these days.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
It's weird because according to data, the 2.7 turbomax is actually more reliable than the 5.3 V8 lmao I'm not kidding. If you go with a GM pickup, the 3.0 diesel is by far the best engine they are producing. Much better on gas mileage and better towing capability than the 2.7
ekalav83@reddit
2020 is like five yrs ago, so yeah
party_man_@reddit
Mazda has massive issues with their 2.5T and 2.5 naturally aspirated engines, head cracks. They have been sweeping it under the rug but the TSBs and extended warranty information is out there. Mazda literally pays online Philippino troll farms to try to cover up the issues.
The 2.5T situation is so bad that the CX-9 name was likely scrapped since it will go down with the CX-7 in Mazda infamy. At least they are extending the warranty to 120k miles/10 years.
chris710n@reddit
I have Mazda as my number 1 personally. Maybe Toyota still, but they’ve had a few problems and I know more people with problems on their new Toyotas than owners with their Mazda’s. And Honda has definitely taken the biggest dip out of reliability. I don’t see how Subaru even makes the top 5 tbh.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
It depends on the model and year. GM has made some good models the past 10 years as well, it's just that their overall all brand reliability is not so good.
The brand scoring high in reliability doesn't mean that they don't have bad year models in their lineups. 2016 honda civic was pretty bad, worse than many of their competitors at the time.
settlementfires@reddit
Mazdas are so much nicer inside and out than Toyota too
chris710n@reddit
True. They drive so much better too. They are the PERFECT combo of sportiness and luxury feel. And for a great price.
shrike71@reddit
Don't worry. The undercarriage rust will jerk you back to reality.
AutoX_Advice@reddit
Undercarriage rust has not been an issue since Ford sold it's controlling stake in 2008. I think most of their models 2010+ didn't have rust issues.
shrike71@reddit
LOL. I work in a Subaru-certified shop. You couldn't be any more wrong.
_Sub_Atomic_@reddit
The problem is this, the engines and intake system isn't actually designed for turbo chargers and the additional strain it puts on the entire system.
If they actually designed engines to withstand the pressures and compression these turbos provided, then sure, the engines would last a lot longer. The turbos are an after thought in their case.
You can get better fuel mileage when you find the sweet spot in your timing of the valves, etc., all of this without sacrificing your powerband for both torque and horsepower.
However, most manufacturers don't want to do this because it requires due diligence for each build of a particular engine and belt system (what's on the belt; alternator, heater, air conditioning, fan, etc). It's a lot more expensive to do it this way (the correct way) rather than cramming a damn turbo on there to increase boost pressure.
Sure, boost is great if your engine can handle it.
-Imthedude@reddit
They gotta stop putting turbos on everything. Kills any motor soooooo much faster
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
That's not always the case, but they don't tolerate as much abuse. You gotta baby them, more oil changes than usual, letting it warm up and letting it cold down, running premium, driving low RPM as much as you can.
Mnm0602@reddit
Turbos. I think virtually every shit engine out there today is turbocharged. We’re basically shooting for peak efficiency out of increasingly smaller displacement power plants, pushing their thermal limit and combustion efficiency. Eventually stuff starts to go wrong when you push the limits, increase parts and complexity, and spread out the supply chain to save costs.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
They say these engines are designed to handle the extra strain but that's where they fall short. Important to note that not all of these small turbocharged engines are bad. Some of them are quite reliable but they require more maintenance, you have to baby these engines more and avoid accelerating like a maniac
NotACommie1@reddit
All of these mileage per gallon mandates are doing the exact opposite for the environment. Engines and engine shutoff modules are now having to be more complicated and causing more failures causing replacements. The impact on the environment is much worse.
JetSpeed205@reddit
Enshittification. The prioritization of cheapness, turnaround, and quantity over quality. It affects everything these days
allllusernamestaken@reddit
the 3.5L v6 that Toyota used for the last 30 years has a reputation of being incredibly reliable because they've had 30 years to tweak it and fix any issues. That old v6 can't meet new emissions regulations so they build brand new engines. Brand new engines are going to have problems.
kovu159@reddit
Regulation. Toyota doesn’t want to make small, turbo, over-stressed engines. They still sell low-stress V8s and NA V6’s in emerging markets. They are forced to engineer fundamentally unreliable engines by government bureaucrats in the US and EU to meet efficiency targets.
bimmerlovere39@reddit
Or maybe, just maybe, this is what happens when engineers push products forward. BMW is in the same regulatory environment, and they’re building the most reliable engines that have since probably the 80s.
It’s a paradigm shift on the powertrain engineering front and this is what happens when companies that have been squeezing the last life out of 2000s & 2010s designs have to start clean sheet. Honda and Toyota will return to form soon enough after these teething pains.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
I think automakers have been producing smaller turbo charged engines and switching to CVT transmissions. Small turbo engines are generally less reliable (there are exceptions) and CVTs have led to a decline in reliability for Honda.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
There's a few factors. Increasingly stringent emissions standard. Increased focus on tech, allocating more money towards software and cost cutting in other areas. Most of the reliability concerns in new cars has to do with software bugs. By 2030, tech is going to be 50% of the cost, while in 2012 it was just 15%
Speedy_SpeedBoi@reddit
The key part of this concept is leading with strong engineering and a strong product. Then, eventually, the business gets taken over by the financial/marketing/sales side and the quality of the product tanks. Basically, the financial sides cashes out on the reputation built by engineering for short-term profit gains.
Spike_Spiegel@reddit
This is yearly occurrence with automakers. Nothing burger.
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
Honda used to be 2nd most reliable brand, since 2016 they've fell a few spots.
Plenty-Industries@reddit
How is the transmission the reason for the issue if the engines are blowing up?
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
It's both. When it comes to engines however it's not the 4 cylinders having problem.
sword_0f_damocles@reddit
Pardon my ignorance, but are V6s being paired with CVTs nowadays?
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
I'm talking about the brand, not particular models. Not sure why this is so hard. I didn't talk about any particular models, I said "honda"
TiD76@reddit
All Honda v6 come paired to an automatic transmission not cvt,
VinnieIDC@reddit (OP)
I'm talking about the brand in general not just particular models. The overall reliability score of Honda declined.
LOLZtroll@reddit
No, homie doesn't know what he's talking about. CVTs aren't a high failure rate for Honda anyways
Automatic-Mood5986@reddit
How dare you!
Everything used to be better back in the day.
Next your suggest something crazy like consolidation and single source supply, means that on bad part can cause consistent and broad problems.
Novogobo@reddit
the complexity of cars has exploded in the past decade, it's no wonder defects have crept in.
earthman34@reddit
In the endless quest for lightness and power everything is being underbuilt and overstressed....while manufacturing techniques are being cheapened as much as possible.
hmkr@reddit
Any reason why 2016 3.5l v6 accords are excluded?
uncleawesome@reddit
Built in Alabama with cheap unskilled labor and a high turnover.