Why do the clouds look like waves with a regular period and amplitude ?
Posted by Acceptable_Claim_258@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 63 comments
Seen today above England (B777-300ER)
Timely_Entrance_7931@reddit
Looks like the sea floor doesn’t it? Water currents and air currents act the same.
Acceptable_Claim_258@reddit (OP)
Based on the real time map in the airplane, we were above ground when I took the picture!
Timely_Entrance_7931@reddit
Ha I know. I’m just saying air moves over the clouds much like water moves over sand.
rroberts3439@reddit
Why does water ripple? Air is a fluid, so same answer. Does a fish know it's in water? Same with humans. We also live in our fluid.
RandomActsofMindless@reddit
Ok, why does water ripple?
BattleAnus@reddit
Because a force that pushes down one part of the water takes time to transfer to the parts around it, and those parts take time to transmit the force to the parts around them, and so on, creating a moving high point in the material that moves outward from the initial location of the force.
It's important to note that this pretty much applies to everything, even solids and things like light. Solids don't really transmit force instantaneously, just much much faster than gases or liquids. The speed of "ripples" in a solid is simply the speed of sound in that material, as that's literally what sound is. This is why if you had a 1 light-year long pole, then swinging it around wouldn't move the tip faster than light. The pole would simply flex and a wave would travel down to the end at the speed of sound in that material.
RandomActsofMindless@reddit
You failed to detect my facetiousness.
Zargothrax@reddit
Is water wet?
z3r0c00l_@reddit
Interesting analogy, I like it.
Glittering-Elk542@reddit
More scientific, rather than an analogy. The air is fluid at a fraction of the density of water. It behaves similarly.
z3r0c00l_@reddit
I was referring to the bit about the fish.
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
Because our atmosphere is a fluid and behaves as such.
Cogwheel@reddit
Nothing made this clearer to me than satellite footage of the Hunga Tonga eruption
wastedheadspace@reddit
Where can I find this?
Cogwheel@reddit
Edited my comment with a link
TommScales@reddit
A broken one
Cogwheel@reddit
I copy-pasted the link into a new tab to check and it still worked on my phone. Not sure why it broke on desktop...
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
Here's the correct one:
https://www.wsj.com/video/tonga-volcanic-eruption-and-tsunami-satellite-images-reveal-damage/FE5D8D7E-250A-4518-B0CD-143204519B73
/u/Cogwheel
jmk338@reddit
Link is broken
relevant_econ_meme@reddit
Link looks like it's broken
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
Krakatoa was where we got the first scientific look at upper atmosphere wind patterns.
wanliu@reddit
I mean, plinian eruptions have been occurring in Italy since antiquity. I don't think Krakatoa was the first to reach the upper atmosphere.
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
None were as massive to circle the earth several times in an era where the telegraph enabled almost instant communication between different parts of the globe.
SuperSmash01@reddit
Was it the first to reach the upper atmosphere that gave us a scientific look at upper atmosphere wind patterns?
SupermanFanboy@reddit
The forbidden milk
Vau8@reddit
Even solid-read soil over long times behaves like a fluid, look at deserts & dunes, or swamp-, peatlands. Everything floats, bro,
Loud_Boysenberry_736@reddit
We all float down here 🎈 Seriously, though, when I was first introduced to this idea in physics it was mind blowing. It also explained why sand grains become rounded over time.
FROOMLOOMS@reddit
I mean, it behaves similar to a fluid when two gradients rub up against each other, causing waves like this. But it isn't exactly accurate to state it is a fluid definitively.
There are, what we're once perceived as only fluid dynamics, present in the atmosphere which is comprised of nearly 100% various gasses.
AGEdude@reddit
Gases are fluids, my friend.
FROOMLOOMS@reddit
TIL
Sorry
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
Awesome that people can learn.
But the gas I put in my car is a liquid! 🤔
Far_Top_7663@reddit
Still a fluid. Both gases and liquids are fluid because the... wait for it...
FLOW.
(unlike solids)
RevMagnum@reddit
and soup is a liquid you can eat
Acceptable_Claim_258@reddit (OP)
It totally makes sense thank you!
LockPickingPilot@reddit
Air is a fluid
StacheIncognito@reddit
Gravity waves, also known as wave clouds or undulatus clouds, are clouds that form when gravity waves move through the atmosphere: Explanation How they form Gravity waves form when air is forced upward over a raised feature, like a mountain, and then pulled back down by gravity. This causes the air to oscillate, creating a wave effect
Zvenigora@reddit
Those look like altocumulus undulatus, and they form even over flat terrain. They may have to do with horizontally oriented convection rolls at the boundary between two atmospheric layers.
Far_Top_7663@reddit
Guys, guys, stop comparing this with waves in water and in desert dunes and the like. These happen at the interphase between two mediums (water and air, sand and air, etc) that have different density and different speeds (wind blowing over a liquid or particulate matter). The clouds are immersed in the air. Submarines don't experience waves like surface vehicles do. Neither do airplanes. I am sure that if you fly through the tops of these clouds so you go in and out the successive crests you are not going to feel anything like a boat sailing over wavy water.
So why this pattern in the clouds? I don't know the answer. But while difference in properties between the clouded layer and the clear layer on top may play a role, for sure the sea waves and dune waves are not a good analogy.
ProFailing@reddit
Meteorologist here, because gases like the atmosphere are fluids, too. The only real difference between a gas and a liquid is that the individual molecules don't connect to each other at all.
But you can apply most laws of fluid dynamics on liquids just as much as on gases.
In this case, there is a strong temperature difference between two layers of air. The lower one with the clouds is a decent bit colder, so all the humidity condensates. Above that, there is an inversion layer. Inversions are phenomena where the temperatures rises with the altitude again.
Specifically in this case, this might be the tropopause, the border between the Troposphere and Stratosphere. Within the stratosphere temperatures usually go up with the altitude again.
Now, imagine one fluid that is colder and heavier (because of the water) and therefore denser, and one that is warmer and lighter. And these two get dragged along each other. When two different things rub along each other, they usually build up tension and interact with each other. They start to oscillate (vibrate steadily) along the way and create these kinds of patterns.
If you press your hand against the window and drag it in just the right angle across a window or table, you'll notice it starts vibrating, too and might make a noisd. That's the same principle, except with two fluids instead of two solid objects. Or, even simpler, look at the sea. Waves are just a resilt of two fluids interacting at the borders with each other: a gas (the atmosphere) drags along a liquid (water) in the form of wind and creates waves.
And since gases are fairly inert, this happens on a much bigger scale than with other things.
Far_Top_7663@reddit
Ok, I was waiting for this comment.... Yes, water and air are both fluids, but the waves in the water happen at an the interphase between water and air, and it is how differences in pressures affect the much denser water vs the less denser air what causes the waves in bodies of water. Submarines don't produce the kind of waves than surface vessels do, and are not exposed to the kind of waves that the surface vessels are. You do mention differences it temperature, differences in density (that cannot be much otherwise the clouds would sink), relative motion between layers, and even chemical reactivity (inert). For me (aeronautical engineer) it is not clear from your explanation how these effects conspire to produce these regular waves.
P0RTILLA@reddit
It’s the same effect with tidal flats and small grain sand. (Sand is a fluid but also a solid)
Travelingexec2000@reddit
Look up Kelvin Helmholtz instability. This is an atmospheric level example of that. Seen commonly on smaller scales https://earthsky.org/earth/kelvin-helmholtz-clouds/
sopha27@reddit
Kelvin Helmholtz and karman vortices are massively fascinating to me, simply because of the span of scale they present.
Ink drop in a waterglas or athomospheric band on Jupiter: doesn't matter, gonna swirl
q-milk@reddit
Look at the sand on a beach and the ripples it forms. Or the waves on the ocean.
Long-Commercial-2893@reddit
Like when you throw a stone into water, waves are formed. The same in the air, clouds can tell us waves are produced. But the next question is what produces waves in the air? If you know, you know ;)
Quirky_Metal609@reddit
Because they are and you’re right. Looks very stable, so I doubt the frequency has much variation, really cool!
Energy flows like waves at various frequencies through EVERY medium on earth. Even solids, but fluids more readily change shape so you can see the waveform.
Te_Luftwaffle@reddit
Gravity waves baby, I did my college thesis about them.
YogurtclosetSouth991@reddit
Is this over BC? I just flew from Edmonton and west past the Rockies it was like this.
RandomActsofMindless@reddit
Those clouds are at the boundary of two layers of air at different pressures, temperatures and relative speeds. They are in effect rubbing against each other and this produces an harmonic oscillation that we see as ripples in the clouds.
New-Fun-9466@reddit
This should be higher. It relates to an area of fluid mechanics called hydrodynamic stability. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrodynamic_stability
BobTheInept@reddit
As for the regularity: If wind is blowing at a steady speed over a terrain feature, the Eddie’s, pressure buildups and releases or whatever, are also going happen with regular timing and spacing.
cazzipropri@reddit
https://skybrary.aero/articles/mountain-waves
aichteeque@reddit
Air is just a fluid. It behaves like any other fluid does. You get waves in a pond, you see waves in the atmosphere.
agha0013@reddit
winds and airflow over the surface of the earth do a lot of similar things to water in the oceans along seabeds and shorelines. It's all fluids in action.
Land features, certain wind directions, you get wave patters in the fluid like currents and tides cause in bodies of water.
Temperature, air pressure, moisture content follows those patterns. clouds form and move along with everything else.
Acceptable_Claim_258@reddit (OP)
Very compelling point thanks!
Witty-Lawfulness2983@reddit
There could possibly be similar ripples at the mantle / crust boundary, if it can happen at low speeds.
rmcgee61@reddit
Harp at work
Successful_Creme6702@reddit
Fluid dynamics is a deep dive subject. Enough to blow your mind
Bitter_Pumpkin_369@reddit
Thanks for pointing that out op, that gives me something to think about.
Waves and vibrations is a key principle in the mechanics of the universe. They MUST be literal waves!
Darkangel775@reddit
It used to be called mountain waves, but you get the same thing from aerosol spraying injections with the particulate settling at different and with the atmosphere and being energized with electricity from the next red rad radar that excites the particulates.
Business-Building-52@reddit
Gravity wave fluid dynamics
danit0ba94@reddit
Because air is a fluid, like water. And it behaves almost identically to water.
Crazy__Donkey@reddit
Im not a expert, but could be a mountain dige deflecting the aie up. Once it hits its max altitude, it bounced down, hit lower, higher pressure air and bounces up... and so on.