For some reason I always thought Rolls Royce was the pinnacle of plane engines, I recently learned that these 737 sized engines for the 777 are GE engines!
Posted by onelove7866@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 107 comments
MaxCantaloupe@reddit
I think asymmetric thrust is gonna be a problem here
Leather-Wing-1769@reddit
I think it’s a big three of Pratt and Whitney, GE, and Rolls Royce.
Prestigious-Arm6630@reddit
No CFM? They made the most sold jet engine ever
Prestigious-Arm6630@reddit
These are P&W4000s . GE makes the GE90 which is EVEN LARGER than the massive engines next to that 737. Is say the GE90s are a320 sized.
TheO530CarrisPT@reddit
That massive engine is a Pratt & Whitney PW4000-112, the 112 inch (2.85 m) in diameter version of the PW4000 series.
mikepapafoxtrot@reddit
I heard from somewhere - can't remember exactly where, probably on one of the forums - that pre-merger UA basically shunned GE after UA232. Is there any truth in that?
TheO530CarrisPT@reddit
They also shunned Rolls-Royce when the L-1011 faced delays due to the engines.
Even though they later got L-1011s from Pan Am.
JT-Av8or@reddit
Why would you think Rolls? Is out them 3rd out of 3. 1) Pratt 2) GE 3) RR.
DavoMcBones@reddit
For a second I thought they were doing an engine swap on the 737 lmao, imagine how goofy that would look
VayVay42@reddit
Dear lord, could you imagine the MCAS problems with those monsters on a 737?
Hugh-Mungus-Richard@reddit
Just put the damn wheels on the nacelles and get rid of the belly wheels mount the engines wherever on the wing as needed for center of gravity.
onelove7866@reddit (OP)
Yet I wanna see it 😂
Tsao_Aubbes@reddit
Big isn't the end all be all. If anything smaller powerplants like the CFM56 should be celebrated as well for their incredible reliability and durability.
0ever@reddit
Bigger usually means more efficient. And we all like that.
HortenWho229@reddit
but what if smaller and same efficient we all really like that
LilHindenburg@reddit
…but smaller generally isn’t as efficient, that’s the point, no?
For large-frame CTG gensets, this is certainly the case.
Hugh-Mungus-Richard@reddit
Look at the largest turbine-generators in the world and larger diameter is definitely more efficient. Hinckley-C final stage is 8 meters (diameter, I believe?). Of course such a stage only has to run at 1500rpm. It would have to do 1800 in the states!
brufleth@reddit
Fewer large engines is always more efficient than more small engines. You have the reduction in the number of cores and you have the "larger volume of air moved slower" aspects both working towards better overall efficiency.
The solution just doesn't always mean the "best" solution because efficiency is just one aspect of concern.
LilHindenburg@reddit
Hmmm. “Moving slower”… ? How so?
Think it’s inherent to the aspect of larger. Engineering intuition tells me it’s a simple application of dimensional analysis: r vs r^2, so volume to surface area is higher, thus less skin drag.
“Less cores” much more so impacts an inherently lower CapEx, b/c less parts.
brufleth@reddit
With a turbofan/turbo jet you can move a large volume slower or a small volume faster. Larger volume slower (large bypass) is inherently more efficient. Doesn't mean it works in all applications, but if your target market is commercial flight, then fewer larger engines is likely more efficient and desirable.
jimbojsb@reddit
The small block Chevy of jet engines basically.
LyleLanley99@reddit
Long live the Iron Duke!
ArtisticTraffic5970@reddit
I hate to say it but, although the most sophisticated American offering by far, the small block chevy barely breaks mediocre as far as v8's go.
Advanced-Dirt-1715@reddit
So you are saying that you don't know much about engines and performance.
Vau8@reddit
VW 2.0 TDI, but, hey, it‘s a big world.
classicalySarcastic@reddit
The workhorse of the sky
Tsao_Aubbes@reddit
I would lean more towards the AZ family - both are huge oil burners! Lol
discombobulated38x@reddit
Also just he sheer insane quantity of them in service and the mind boggling overhaul/production rate on them.
Truly the Model T of gas turbines.
Vau8@reddit
A-342 entered the chat.
ChuckyJa@reddit
I agree. Incredible engines.
Yellowtelephone1@reddit
those are actually Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines.
HumpyPocock@reddit
For those wondering, options for early Boeing 777’s incl. —
PS — rundown of specific variants in [this PDF]
GE90 and PW4000-112 both (IIRC) have 22 fan blades but the GE90 has a rather distinctive two tone appearance due to use of carbon fibre composite with titanium leading edges, alongside a rather delightful swoopiness. OTOH the PW4000-112 has hollow titanium fan blades, see photo linked below.
RE: the PW4000-112 —
NB — Clayton has a LOT of photos of various PW4000s
suckmywake175@reddit
You appear to be quite a bit FAN of the turbofan. Harharhar….
HumpyPocock@reddit
Oh, then I guess you could call me… a turbo fan…
Heh. Heh. Heh.
suckmywake175@reddit
Well done good sir!
Yellowtelephone1@reddit
Its important to note that older GE90s had straight blades that swoop came later
3trackmind@reddit
Swoop! There it is!
HumpyPocock@reddit
Ohh that’s right, forgot about them.
Comparison
Thanks mate — appreciate the correction!
discombobulated38x@reddit
Rolls-Royce certainly make the most complex gas turbines, as nobody else does a full 3 shaft engine, but how you measure "the pinnacle" of plane engines is non trivial!
54H60-77@reddit
Three spools is only one way of solving the compressor design point problem. Sure it's a great way of solving the problem and it requires an interesting bearing arrangment, but this in and of itself cant be the reason RR makes the most complex engines.
Consider that the Allison J71 and GE J73 were the first production engines to utilize VIGV's to reduce compressor stall during RPM transients, while P&W with the J57 chose to utilize a mid compressor bleed valve to solve the same issue. These were simple solutions. (These days everyone uses both). Ever wonder why the three spool system never caught on?
That brings me to my main point, when it comes to already complicated machines, the real brag is to find non complex solutions where you can. The RB211's competitors for example developed more efficient compressors to compete.
More recently, P&W designed the geared turbofan which effectively has three different rpm desing points while only having two spools. By putting is a gearbox between the fan and LP spools, the fan and LP spool operate on different RPM's but remain on the same %RPM.
discombobulated38x@reddit
Three spools doesn't just solve a compressor design point problem, it solves a host of issues and typically results in a shorter, lighter, more rigid engine.
The cost of that is the staggering increase in complexity, it absolutely is the reason RR engines are more complex. Bearings barely scratch the surface. Lubrication, shaft failure safety systems and cooling/ventilation systems all increase in part count by a minimum of 50%, the number of modules increases which is more or less proportional to engine assembly/disassembly time, requiring multiple lifts of the stack that simply don't exist for two shaft architectures.
I don't see what VIGVs and bleed valves have to do with 2 vs 3 shaft architecture given that every 3 shaft engine has both of these.
33% of aircraft that could have a 3 shaft engine do (or thereabouts), I'd say they've caught on. The reason GE and PW don't do them is they haven't historically needed to.
That's lovely, but those days are long gone in gas turbines!
And that was great when the engines were new, but as the engines degraded those compressors became less efficient than the shorter, more rigid compressors on RB211s/Trents.
They have, and it's still simpler than a full 3 shaft engine, because it doesn't have a hoofing big low speed turbine on the back end and 3 concentric shafts spinning in opposite directions. RR are going the same way.
54H60-77@reddit
Exciting to see another with more than a passing interest!
In the interest of brevity, I didnt list all the reasons more engine designs have avoided three spools. Having said thay, I actaully didnt realize the triple spool architecture was used on the Trent series of engines, I was assuming that was relegated to the RB199 and 211.
The fact that almost every turbine engine designed after used these techniques was exactly my point. It is relative simple and effective to implement into a design. "Relatively simple", also I forgot to mention originally the J57, in addition to using mid compressor bleeds, it was also the first two spool production engine...again a technology used on almost all engines thereafter. RB211 and Trent obviously not.
Very good point here, you do lose turbine efficiency due to the system still being mechanically the same.
discombobulated38x@reddit
Back at you :)
I forgot that the RB199 was a three shaft engine to be fair. Funnily enough full name of all of the Trents on the type certificate is actually RB211 Trent, and the later variants of the RB211 are far closer to Trent 700s in design and technology than early RB211s, for example the 524G-T literally uses a complete Trent 700 compressor.
To hoist my patriotic flag (sorry about that), the Bristol Olympus first ran within weeks of the J57, but has nowhere near the legacy of the J57. As you say, it completely solved the compressor surge issues with single shaft engines.
This is however countered in the GTF's favour by less secondary air being needed to seal bearings, less losses through interstage seals etc, all of which are far harder to capture on paper.
Additionally shifting the mass to the front where the gearbox is means the entire core flexes far less, which reduces the rate of compressor/turbine degradation.
I suspect that long term the GTF will beat the 2/3shaft architecture hands down, and I'm intrigued to see how GE respond as they don't currently have an offering.
54H60-77@reddit
Well hang on a minute, the Olympus powered the Vulcan and the 593 powered the Concord. If thats not a legacy I dont know what is. Also, the Olympus had a large marine application.
I wish I could say more other than the requirement for seaing bearing compartments is satisfied..barely.
The gearbox isnt as heavy as you might think. One of the engineering marvels is that the amount of power going through gearbox is sustained through its relative lightweight construction.
So the GTF is a two spool engine. The HP system and LP system do rotate opposite each other and the fan, which is geared to the LP but rotates opposite the LP system.
discombobulated38x@reddit
The same!
I suspect from the sounds of things that we'd be able to have a very entertaining chat on the merits of various designs whilst flagrantly breaching both of our employment contracts!
54H60-77@reddit
Most assuredly. Perhaps over a couple of pints of..dare I say, Harviestoun's Old Engine Oil.
discombobulated38x@reddit
Oooo, that sounds tasty!
schrutesanjunabeets@reddit
If that impresses you, check out the GE9X engines.
WLFGHST@reddit
They're about the same size, 777X vs 737 MAX10
schrutesanjunabeets@reddit
Right. But this picture has an ollllllld united 737 in it, and Im guessing that is a GE90 fan next to it. I was just commenting on about a slightly larger turbine that is now made.
giulimborgesyt@reddit
Engine*
Turbines are a part of the engines
WLFGHST@reddit
Yeah, I get that, and its definitely true, but it’s not necessarily a hugee difference (and I just lowkey wanted an excuse to share those edits of the max 10 and 777x lol)
Rooilia@reddit
If size is all that OP looking for RR Ultrafan is what he wants to see... oh wait it's RR...
VesperLynn@reddit
Now I wanna see the big engine mounted such that it’s inline with the wing so the plane looks like a wild pod racer type thing.
Minimum_Dot_6811@reddit
777 had RR (Trent 800) aswell..initially
rkba260@reddit
And they're terrible... we have 892s on our birds and above about FL290 they really suffer in the climb.
UandB@reddit
But they're not drinking 1qt of oil every 2 hours like the GE90s, so there's that.
vatamatt97@reddit
Well then you'll be happy to hear the Rolls-Royce UltraFan is even bigger, although it's still in development.
SmoothTyler@reddit
The UltraFan is a demonstrator. Rolls plans to adapt the technology tested on it to other engines, or future engine development. I doubt the UltraFan as we know it today ever ends on on-wing for anything other than in-flight testing.
jack_harbor@reddit
I hope they keep the blue green color for the blades on all of the engines. Good branding.
gogybo@reddit
I believe they said at one point they'd let the airline choose the colour.
verstohlen@reddit
GE. They bring good engines to life.
No_Soft_764@reddit
Actually i prefer GE as pinnacle of aircraft engines, i have heard about planes waiting so long for rolls royce engine parts
bilkel@reddit
GE90 is the exclusive engine for the 777-300
onelove7866@reddit (OP)
Is that the biggest of its kind?
bilkel@reddit
The new engine for the 777X is bigger than
KnifeNovice789@reddit
My Dad flew the 747 200s and possibly 300s. I always thought they were Rolls Royce engines but apparently not. Learn something new everyday.
richardelmore@reddit
I think Boeing has traditionally offered options for both GE and RR engines to appease the customers desire to send more of the money into their (EU or US) economy.
I'm suspect they would prefer to standardize on a single supplier to simplify things, but customers don't want that.
ChuckyJa@reddit
Maybe better. Have you seen the issues RR is having with their power plants on the A350...
Techhead7890@reddit
Oof. Cathay CX383 recently sprung an engine leak. That's on top of their past issues with the Trent 1000s on the 787 over the past 10 years.
747ER@reddit
The 747-200 and 747-300 flew with Rolls-Royce RB211, General Electric CF6, and Pratt & Whitney JT9D engines. Your dad (depending on the airline) could definitely have flown on a 747 Classic with Rolls-Royce engines.
482Cargo@reddit
Depends on the airline. E.g. Cathay operated the 747-200/300 with Rolls-Royce RB211 engines.
onelove7866@reddit (OP)
Yeah this was a revelation to me as well!!
KnifeNovice789@reddit
Not sure why you got down voted for that but appreciate the response 👍
YMMV25@reddit
The 742 and 743 both were offered with the RB211 as an option along with the JT9D and CF6.
TheMightyG00se@reddit
RR made engines the same size for the 777 as well
LightningGeek@reddit
They did not. The Rolls Royce engines are noticeably smaller than the GE90's.
The main fans are 110 inches on the RR and 123 inches on the GE90-85, and 128 inches for the GE90-115. The RR nacelle is also smaller than the GE90's.
Source - I'm an aircraft mechanic that does deep maintenance on both RR and GE powered 777-200's, and GE powered 300's.
RainingTyphoon@reddit
Someday I hope I can stand next to a 777/747/A380 on the tarmac and truly feel its scale
cleanyour_room@reddit
I stood next to a USN F-14 and was shocked by the size of a fighter jet
Even-Solid-9956@reddit
Biggest ≠ best. Yeah the GE90 + GE9X are humungous and good engines but are they the #1 best engines ever produced? Not really.
SomeRedPanda@reddit
You're been banned from Texas.
Katana_DV20@reddit
GE90 is a fantastic engine, truly an engineering masterpiece.
One of the world's most successful jet engines is an enduring (since 1974) partnership between GE 🇺🇸 & SAFRAN 🇫🇷 to produce the legendary CFM56.
planespotterhvn@reddit
Major engine manufacturers RR / GE / Pratt and Whitney all make alternate engines for most aircraft sizes.
ChillZedd@reddit
I wanna put one of these in my Mazda
Ungrammaticus@reddit
You mean on your Mazda. Your now quite thin Mazda.
halfbarr@reddit
Rolls Royce make 777 turbines too OP, and they are that big too...if big is 'The pinnacle'. I prefer thrust or efficiency myself.
lexluthor_i_am@reddit
Rolls Royce is the best. Don't be fooled by size. Stop watching black porn.
MixDifferent2076@reddit
Tell that to the B787 operators using RRY T1000 engines. Check the Boeing forward order book and see how many are optioned with the Trent 1000.......zilch. All Ge Genx options. What is the resale value of a Rolls powered B787..... about zero dollars.
HatinCheese@reddit
Unnecessary weird last part
RobotGhostNemo@reddit
I was kinda surprised at how low-key GE is, considering they are actually the market leader.
103TomcatBall5Point4@reddit
No need to shout
103TomcatBall5Point4@reddit
RR's flagship engine is a 1960s design with incremental modifications.
GroceryFragrant6729@reddit
thats PW for the classic 777s
YMMV25@reddit
GE90s are big, but the RB211 is iconic.
Cool-Acanthaceae8968@reddit
Yeah.. it bankrupted Rolls Royce and was partially responsible for Lockheed losing 10 million dollars on every L-1011 ever made.
Weet-Bix54@reddit
True, but if you think about it the recall value in pilots and avgeeks of the engine is up there. Also, iirc early Trent’s were based on the 211s, and even some certified as 211 variants. You did mention it, but of course the 211 was most certainly not the only reason the tristar failed
Xivios@reddit
They're pretty successful in the industrial turbine role too, over 800 RB211-derived industrial turbines have been sold. They've got added turbine stages to extract as much shaft power as possible, and can have a variety of features to reduce emissions or burn various fuels, in some models even straight hydrogen. At their most powerful they make about 50,000hp.
Optio__Espacio@reddit
All trents are considered rb211 variants. It's even written on the xwb test stands.
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
The delays in the RB-211 program directly led to the Tristar's downfall to the market capture that the DC-10 eventually consumed. It's naive to think otherwise.
1320Fastback@reddit
Rolls is just one of the competitors, not the best.
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
What if I told you that the RB-211 program was the reason the L-1011 failed?
350smooth@reddit
Interesting. I thought it looked like a Pratt.
DoorBuster2@reddit
It is
Fancy-Damage1877@reddit
Rolling Rubbish
clarkeyaviation@reddit
That’s a Pratt and Whitney engine tho
interstellar-dust@reddit
RR and GE are both pinnacles of technology and result of decades of focused R&D. Improving and iterating every single bit over and over. The next competition is Aviadvigatel PS-90 that power the IL96-300s that produce 35,000 lbf of thrust. The Trent XWB has 84,000 lbf and GE9x has 134,000 lbf thrust. Also these western engines have much higher MTBF and TBO. The single crystal blades used by GE and RR are one of the highest technology humanity has right now.
I would say even fighter jet engines like GE404 and 414 are more achievable compared to High bypass turbo fan engines. In fact Rolls Royce jet engine tech was shared with Russia during WW2.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Thousands of hours on Rolls engines and no problems.