That’s probably the compensation they made to keep 3D thrust vectoring. Definitely a compromise though since there are more movements involved. Nevertheless, significantly better for stealth than those round nozzles.
It’s from a few hours ago from a Russian telegram source. However, there were “official” reports from over a year ago where they showed some pictures of a flat engine nozzle test from UEC (united engine corp). So it could be real especially since there’s photographic evidence. We’ll probably get more info in the coming days/weeks.
That`s completely irrelevant to my question? How is a random picture of a plane, in an aviation subreddit propaganda? Is it only propaganda if it is a Russian or Chinese plane?
cus 99% of the time when we see russian stuff in here (especially this pretend plane pile of junk) its propaganda. now you downvote me into the depths but there you go.
Can you please show me posts, of Russian planes, which are, in your opinion, propaganda? Also, the Su-57 is probably worse than its American and Chinese counterparts, but it is not a bad plane and better than 4th gens.
the place these pictures come from is a russian propaganda piece. maybe that doesnt matter, maybe it does. im guessing that we are talking about the super amazing definitely in production plane means it matters.
Pictures of a Russian plane are shown by Russian media. Who would have thougth. Are pictures of American planes, shown by US-media also propaganda, in your opinion?
I don't think you understand. This wasn't just a picture of a plane in a russian program on TV. This was a propaganda piece saying how amazing the su-57 is and it's going to be better than anything else ever. We aren't talking about something in a vacuum. It's not just a picture in isolation. Also saying everyone does propaganda pieces isn't going to stop this from being one as well.
I’m not really convinced that 3D thrust vectoring has any purpose on a modern fighter at this stage, though I’m not an expert. Isn’t the last recorded gun kill like 30 years ago?
I would think that the ability to change heading in any axis without having to engage traditional control surfaces could be beneficial in numerous ways. Especially when effectively combined with those control surfaces.
More efficient energy management, lower drag, lower radar returns, etc.
I’ve also heard of Russia’s inclinations toward TVC relating to extreme-high-altitude patrols, to the point where control surfaces start losing full effectiveness. This is because they want to maximize individual endurance due to their limited tanker fleet.
I’m definitely not an expert and can’t provide further details but I recall hearing that thrust vectoring is a significant benefit in supersonic manoeuvring in the F-22.
Can anyone more knowledgable confirm, correct, or elaborate?
You can suddenly redirect your planes flightpath, which missle seaker heads don't like and loose lock on. That's the main idea behind manoeuvrability in missle age. But modern missles don't care that much and hit you anyways. Except the missle is at the end of it's flight envelope and has little energy left. It will loose a lot of energy while turning while the aircraft just flys away with throttle not decalerating.
So roughly, old missles even less efficient and last ditch effort against a modern missle with low energy left....
Though Meteor doesn't play the game like this. It will throttle again at the end of flight and hit your plane if you are not already out of reach.
Meteor and R-77M have a "throttle" in such a way that upon losing a lock the missile will cruise without power until a lock is regained. After that the missile will reignite and vector towards the target
Not sure this is pertinent to the Su-57, but I know Raptor pilots mention that TVC is actually quite useful for maintaining energy in high speed, high altitude maneuvering, since control surfaces are significantly less effective with less air to act on. I'm sure flight control logic has come a long way since the late 00s, and a lot could be done w/o TVC, but I imagine that it'd still be useful if you aircraft has it.
My takeaway was that it wasn't supermaneuverability, but being able to use TVC to get better control authority w/o losing speed due to drag induced by the deflecting control surfaces.
It wouldnt, lateral thrust vectoring only would help with yaw and the adjustment with that wouldnt helo much at all if a sam is inbound. The advantage for lateral thrust vectoring is very minimal and the maintanence issue make it not worthwhile, which is why the US or other modern airforces havent implemented it or homegrown platforms.
The thing is, as soon as your enemy finds out that you can't dogfight anymore you will probably find yourself in a dogfight soon. That a certain skill is not used anymore does not mean you can just ditch that skill overboard
It’s definitely not as useful as it once was but it could still be useful for last ditch evasive maneuvers. Either way, probably better than just having 2D thrust vectoring.
It's to mimic some elements of 3d thrust vectoring as it only has 2d Vectoring. It has payoffs like better yaw and roll influence, but at the cost of potential pitch.
More like it'll be installed on like one or two aircrafts and never actually get anywhere because the funds were embezzled through corruption. Just like most of Russias military projects.
Ofc, there’s computation involved but don’t you think the Russians have pretty good experience with it? Most of their 4 generation jets are equipped with it and can use thrust vectoring to achieve super maneuverability, get out of stalls, etc. I think it’s one of the things Russia isn’t lacking in compared to the US when it comes to engines.
After digging through online forums, I have found the original source for these pictures. Turns out, there's video of them showing these nozzles briefly on Channel 1. Make of that what you will:
I believe this variation of the AL-51F1 will be used on the upcoming Su-75 Checkmate and the T-50 is just being used as a testbed. The actual AL-51F1 for the Su-57 will be the version seen here publicly unveiled at Zhuhai airshow.
So canted thrust vectoring nozzel to cheese it to become 2.5D instead of just 2D a la the SU-35 but actually stealthy. Now this program might actually start to get somewhere.
Looks really cool ngl.
BrianWantsTruth@reddit
It definitely looks cool. Not sure I understand the reason for the angle, unless it can swivel??
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
That’s probably the compensation they made to keep 3D thrust vectoring. Definitely a compromise though since there are more movements involved. Nevertheless, significantly better for stealth than those round nozzles.
Rooilia@reddit
How recent is the foto?
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
It’s from a few hours ago from a Russian telegram source. However, there were “official” reports from over a year ago where they showed some pictures of a flat engine nozzle test from UEC (united engine corp). So it could be real especially since there’s photographic evidence. We’ll probably get more info in the coming days/weeks.
Roundcouchcorner@reddit
Mmmmm, nothing like some fresh propaganda.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
How is that propaganda?
RadiantFuture25@reddit
one engine and on a T-50? everyone be on 6th gen planes before this thing is fully operational.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
That`s completely irrelevant to my question? How is a random picture of a plane, in an aviation subreddit propaganda? Is it only propaganda if it is a Russian or Chinese plane?
RadiantFuture25@reddit
cus 99% of the time when we see russian stuff in here (especially this pretend plane pile of junk) its propaganda. now you downvote me into the depths but there you go.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Can you please show me posts, of Russian planes, which are, in your opinion, propaganda? Also, the Su-57 is probably worse than its American and Chinese counterparts, but it is not a bad plane and better than 4th gens.
RadiantFuture25@reddit
the place these pictures come from is a russian propaganda piece. maybe that doesnt matter, maybe it does. im guessing that we are talking about the super amazing definitely in production plane means it matters.
Constant-Tax527@reddit
Pictures of a Russian plane are shown by Russian media. Who would have thougth. Are pictures of American planes, shown by US-media also propaganda, in your opinion?
RadiantFuture25@reddit
I don't think you understand. This wasn't just a picture of a plane in a russian program on TV. This was a propaganda piece saying how amazing the su-57 is and it's going to be better than anything else ever. We aren't talking about something in a vacuum. It's not just a picture in isolation. Also saying everyone does propaganda pieces isn't going to stop this from being one as well.
Pastill@reddit
Propaganda for who? Aviation porn enthusiast?
imbasicallycoffee@reddit
I like how they didn't show it in operation. Just it sitting on the ground.
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
I actually found the source for it after doing some digging on forums. They do show it on video after all but only ground tests:
https: //www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sukhoi-su-57-t-50-pak-fa-flight-testing-and-development-part-ii-2012-current.15626/post-734621
https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyeBNc2A2NI&t=35s
BrianWantsTruth@reddit
I’m not really convinced that 3D thrust vectoring has any purpose on a modern fighter at this stage, though I’m not an expert. Isn’t the last recorded gun kill like 30 years ago?
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
I would think that the ability to change heading in any axis without having to engage traditional control surfaces could be beneficial in numerous ways. Especially when effectively combined with those control surfaces.
More efficient energy management, lower drag, lower radar returns, etc.
T65Bx@reddit
I’ve also heard of Russia’s inclinations toward TVC relating to extreme-high-altitude patrols, to the point where control surfaces start losing full effectiveness. This is because they want to maximize individual endurance due to their limited tanker fleet.
ThoughtsandThinkers@reddit
I’m definitely not an expert and can’t provide further details but I recall hearing that thrust vectoring is a significant benefit in supersonic manoeuvring in the F-22.
Can anyone more knowledgable confirm, correct, or elaborate?
Thanks in advance!
Rooilia@reddit
You can suddenly redirect your planes flightpath, which missle seaker heads don't like and loose lock on. That's the main idea behind manoeuvrability in missle age. But modern missles don't care that much and hit you anyways. Except the missle is at the end of it's flight envelope and has little energy left. It will loose a lot of energy while turning while the aircraft just flys away with throttle not decalerating.
So roughly, old missles even less efficient and last ditch effort against a modern missle with low energy left....
Though Meteor doesn't play the game like this. It will throttle again at the end of flight and hit your plane if you are not already out of reach.
jvd0928@reddit
The only accurate answer. Why would you be downvoted?
Can meteor restart its solid booster? Or does it have a little tank of hypergolics? Never heard of an AA missile that relights.
ypk_jpk@reddit
Meteor and R-77M have a "throttle" in such a way that upon losing a lock the missile will cruise without power until a lock is regained. After that the missile will reignite and vector towards the target
TaskForceCausality@reddit
I’m sure it comes in handy to dodge SAMs.
AccipiterCooperii@reddit
No, if you think you need to use thrust vectoring to defeat a SAM you’re likely already dead.
IbizenThoth@reddit
Not sure this is pertinent to the Su-57, but I know Raptor pilots mention that TVC is actually quite useful for maintaining energy in high speed, high altitude maneuvering, since control surfaces are significantly less effective with less air to act on. I'm sure flight control logic has come a long way since the late 00s, and a lot could be done w/o TVC, but I imagine that it'd still be useful if you aircraft has it.
AccipiterCooperii@reddit
Totally, I will always advocate for super-maneuverability! But against a SAM I don’t see a situation where it provides a reliable evasion tactic.
SAMs come at you too fast to dodge, you either get outside it’s envelope or you don’t, or you spoof it with cm.
IbizenThoth@reddit
My takeaway was that it wasn't supermaneuverability, but being able to use TVC to get better control authority w/o losing speed due to drag induced by the deflecting control surfaces.
AccipiterCooperii@reddit
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. Energy is life after-all, being able to turn inside your opponent without loss of it is incredibly valuable.
In a peer war you can’t control the scenarios when engagements happen, and merges will happen.
KeDoG3@reddit
It wouldnt, lateral thrust vectoring only would help with yaw and the adjustment with that wouldnt helo much at all if a sam is inbound. The advantage for lateral thrust vectoring is very minimal and the maintanence issue make it not worthwhile, which is why the US or other modern airforces havent implemented it or homegrown platforms.
d_maeddy@reddit
The thing is, as soon as your enemy finds out that you can't dogfight anymore you will probably find yourself in a dogfight soon. That a certain skill is not used anymore does not mean you can just ditch that skill overboard
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
It’s definitely not as useful as it once was but it could still be useful for last ditch evasive maneuvers. Either way, probably better than just having 2D thrust vectoring.
cwajgapls@reddit
Username checks out…
GeckoV@reddit
With two engines this gives you yaw control. Think of a V tail aircraft
Mysterycakes96@reddit
It's to mimic some elements of 3d thrust vectoring as it only has 2d Vectoring. It has payoffs like better yaw and roll influence, but at the cost of potential pitch.
PNWTangoZulu@reddit
Lol Don’t worry, I’m sure it will be scattered across some Ukrainian wheat field soon, just like the rest of soviet trash.
Hermitcraft7@reddit
Sure buddy, uh huh.
PNWTangoZulu@reddit
Here he is officers, we found the commie
Hermitcraft7@reddit
You wish I was a commie I guess. Too bad I'm a right-wing American...
ahabswhale@reddit
Nothing like a Republican stumping for the Kremlin.
Hermitcraft7@reddit
I called someone out on a blatant lie and you guys are just coping with it? I guess? Really the logic part is kind of absent here
PNWTangoZulu@reddit
…what “blatant lie” are you calling out?
Hermitcraft7@reddit
"stumping for the Kremlin"
CapitanShinyPants@reddit
So, still shilling for Putin then.
Hermitcraft7@reddit
No, not really. I don't see where I said that Putin is a great person
StockProfessor5@reddit
More like it'll be installed on like one or two aircrafts and never actually get anywhere because the funds were embezzled through corruption. Just like most of Russias military projects.
pythonic_dude@reddit
Last I checked Ru AF refused to accept further airframes without new engines, so this will probably get somewhere.
oktsi@reddit
All the time and they are back at F-22 design which is over 30 years old.
Sea_Perspective6891@reddit
Looks very similar to the nozzle on the F-22 only it looks like it's going to have better thrust vectoring.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I'll believe it performs better than an F-22 when I see it.
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
I think he meant the thrust vectoring would be better than the F22’s not the over engine performance.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I'm skeptical about that as well. There may be more axis of movement but I'm not convinced they'll be able to effectively use it.
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
If it can perform the same axis of movement as the F-22 engines and more, then how/why would it be worse?
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
There is a lot more than just being able to move, there is a lot of computing power that goes into how to move, when, and how fast
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
Ofc, there’s computation involved but don’t you think the Russians have pretty good experience with it? Most of their 4 generation jets are equipped with it and can use thrust vectoring to achieve super maneuverability, get out of stalls, etc. I think it’s one of the things Russia isn’t lacking in compared to the US when it comes to engines.
betelgeux@reddit
Reminds me of the scene in Attack of the killer tomatoes where they have developed a bionic man but only had the budget for one leg.
"Run" (spins rapidly in a circle)
"Jump" (flies off screen to the right)
Zmeiovich@reddit (OP)
After digging through online forums, I have found the original source for these pictures. Turns out, there's video of them showing these nozzles briefly on Channel 1. Make of that what you will:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sukhoi-su-57-t-50-pak-fa-flight-testing-and-development-part-ii-2012-current.15626/page-84#post-734621
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyeBNc2A2NI&t=25s
interstellar-dust@reddit
Russians still believe in low MTBF engines I see.
Karbon12@reddit
I believe this variation of the AL-51F1 will be used on the upcoming Su-75 Checkmate and the T-50 is just being used as a testbed. The actual AL-51F1 for the Su-57 will be the version seen here publicly unveiled at Zhuhai airshow.
xingi@reddit
That is 177S, it’s a an upgraded AL-31 they are offering for flankers
KehreAzerith@reddit
New engine, old technology
thenoobtanker@reddit
So canted thrust vectoring nozzel to cheese it to become 2.5D instead of just 2D a la the SU-35 but actually stealthy. Now this program might actually start to get somewhere.
Looks really cool ngl.