The Finns rebuilt all the Mosins that got left in the country when they gained their independence. Same base rifle, yeah, but tons of little improvements that made for better and more accurate rifles, with better sights, and when they started building their own Mosins, they kept making them better. A sniper rifle based on Mosin receivers, sometimes even old originals, is still in use with the Finnish Defense Forces, although probably not for much longer.
I know I’m late to this, but I own an otherwise unmodified 1905 M91 with the SA mark (which they didn’t actually start putting on until the Continuation War iirc) and a post-war stock. About half of the Mosins used by the Finns in both wars were M91 pattern, many with new barrels but also a lot that were mostly unmodified. The M27s, M28s, and M39s made up the other half
I mean, it's not impossible. They'd have captured whatever they could from the Soviets during the conflict obviously but it's also entirely plausible they just had a stash of unmodified ones that started getting handed out. I mean, they were also buying Arisakas just to make sure every man had a rifle. But they started making them their own already around 1924, so that's 15 years or so to work on their Mosins before WW2.
The length of the barrel, rimmed cartridge, and overdrawn action were all obsolete by the time the first Great War came to an end.
It was realized very early in WW1, both in the trenches and fields and in the towns and cities, that full "musket length" rifles were no longer practical for regular infantry. Their size limited mobility, and the average engagement distance of armies on maneuver was close enough that the increased effective range was wasted. Also, shorter barrels take less material to make so you can make more rifles.
Rimmed cartridges, where the base of the cartridge exceeds the diameter of the case wall, do not stack as evenly as "rimless" (really a recessed rim) cartridges, requiring curved magazines and limiting the number of rounds you could carry in a given amount of space. Rimless cartridges combined with more consistent double-stack double-feed systems allowed a substantial increase in capacity without a substantial increase in size.
The overly long draw of the bolt on the rifle was also an obsolete feature, but necessitated by the style of magazine and the rimmed cartridges to ensure consistent loading and ejection.
The whole world conscripted during wwi & WWII, they gave their conscripts everything as they were the Fighting force. I've not heard of conscripts being poorly armed due to them being conscripts. Who's Russia holding back "the good stuff" for? This seems a bad decision.
I'm not saying you're wrong just saying that sounds an odd thing to do as conscripts are a necessity in big wars.
Russian government doesn't "believe" in anything, first of all.
Second, not all conscription is created equal.
The Russian people know that the conscripts are being recruited to serve as nothing more than bodies. A proverbial wall of meat to halt or delay the advance of enemy forces. In the current conflict as the Russian government attempts to militarily annex Ukraine, even their volunteer troops do not want to be there due to poor conditions and limited supplies. With the conscripts being kept in line by the volunteers, desertion rates are high as evidenced by the abandoned fighting positions. I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Russian army is again gunning down any of its soldiers who retreat, all the while planning to blame the casualties on the Ukrainian forces "shooting Russian civilians in the back".
Yet you dont question the other guy who responded, who did not say anything counter to what I said, and explained the difference between western and russian conscription quite eloquently, so clearly you have chosen your target already.
You generally hold back the good stuff for the Marine, Airborne, Volunteer and Guard units.
After those your motorised and mechanised units who will be expected to do more complicated combat actions than your conscripts.
Conscripts generally are their used to hold positions, potentially used in offensives in desperation or to probe the enemy positions or as distractions. Because of this you'll generally give the best weapons to the best trained troops who will have the most effect on the battlefield.
We don't generally see the same effect in many western formation because:
1) Many nations have to reject some of their conscripts because they have more than enough troops and generally have minimum equipment + training standards (aka they can't afford to train everyone or even desire to)
2) Once the shooting starts many conscripts in western service will be mixed in with Volunteer troops as they will generally perform better that way
Russia and prior/previously the USSR always relied on it's mass, but always struggled to recruit volunteers simply due to the demographics and Geography of the country.
Well this was cool. Thank you for a detailed response. What you described reminds me of the "man floods" China did in WWII? Maybe Korea? I can't remember
The bolt, and the draw of the bolt for a complete cycle, are both longer than they need to be. This is especially the case for the original rifle pattern. For most shooters, you cannot maintain a stable firing position and good sight picture with that configuration.
It affects the efficiency of the rifles use in combat
True, but the ones made before 1942 and after 1945 are a lot better to shoot. Those were the years when they were like "oh fuck we need guns and we needed them yesterday" so QC really fell through the floor.
They're clunky, unwieldy and heavy but still shoot a hard hitting round.
It’s a long rifle using a rimmed cartridge in an outdated bolt action when even the better bolt actions had been eclipsed by the auto loaders like the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, STG44.
I have a feeling these weren't actually issued by the Russian military as some have claimed, but we're rather being used by Russian seperatist forces in Donetsk and Luhansk. Many of these guys were bringing guns from home, and if they knew how to use it and didn't have an alternative, it's better than nothing. It's not entirely useless in a trench, even the carbines have an effective range of roughly 500 meters. It's definitely outdated, but I'd rather have a Mosin than a knife.
I'm just a guy spitting shit on the internet, I'm not a soldier. I just shoot my Type 53 occasionally and know a little bit about the war. I could be completely off.
You're right, mostly. Russia ordered general mobilization in their puppet "states" DNR/LNR just prior to the war. That continued for months until they basically ran out of men. These guys were used as little more than cannon fodder. I've seen a few theories as to why these guys were being widely issued Mosin's - the two biggest being lack of rifles in DNR/LNR inventory and that they didn't trust some of the mobilized and so wanted them equipped worse than reg RU troops. I think it was mostly supply incompetence, as we saw wagner cannon fodder prisoners issued AK-74's. There's an absolute huge number of WW2 small arms still in storage in both Ukraine and Russia. I don't think these were being brought from home, I think they were probably dug up from old storage in mines and the like and issued out because they needed troops now, not later.
Russia does still actually issue Mosins today, but almost always the sniper version with a scope - likely to act as DM/sniper role. There was a video of a Russian with one just a few days ago.
Yes. Every photo I've seen of mosins in Ukraine have had scopes. They could just be using them as snipers and not as main weapons like most people seem to think.
I like the Mosin, but damn would I be sad if I was given this. If I was a Russian, I'd at least want an SKS or PPSh (if we're going back to pre-1950s tech).
I'd rather get a PPSh, or a PPD, or a PPS. Yeah it's still outdated compared to an AL, but I'm not too worried about long range in a trench and the caliber/ammo capacity isn't bad.
At the very least, if I'm getting a rifle, give me an SVT or SKS.
Ish.... the first production model was made in 1947.
The 1945 prototype version was basically a T-44 with a bigger gun. It was then modified to a recognisable T-54 form being adopted in 1946 and entered serial production in 1947 and 1948.
The T-44 is a WW2 vintage tank, with despite 960 being made in WW2, was not used on the western front due to spare parts supply, training and the desire to keep the tank secret. It does however seem to have served potentially in combat over the last few days of the war on the eastern front against japan.
The T-44 itself being very close to a T54 hull with and T34 turret and gun (with a T55 gun on some models)
So in effect you have a WW2 style of tank being currently used in Ukraine
TLDR: It's basically a WW2 tank that didn't enter service until the cold war (if that makes sense?)
The first T-54 was produced in 1945, though it wasnt until the 1950s they went into serial production. T-55 entered production in 1955 and continued for a few decades.
Honestly if MANPADS are destroying contemporary tanks, then migh as well fill the gaps with older tanks. These older machines still have a gun on them 🤷♂️
???? What manpads are you talking about? Only thing I can think of capable of that is the starstriek and even then your at best going to mobility kill an MBT if your lucky unless you get a Luke Skywalker shot and have the little submunitions pen just right to hit the fuel or ammunition
Either a punishment battalion or a photograph of the oldest weapons the Ukrainians got to boost moral implying that the Russians are useing the same weapons as there lowest
Interestingly penal units seem to be equipped with AK's of various types. Mosins show up a lot on the southern front in the hands of Russian territorial units.
Donbas and the Crimea peninsula got annexed in 2 steps by pro russian troops in 2014. Officially a civil war which never really ended, but noone, not even Ukraine, really cared about. Despite obvious Russion army support nothing happened and EU media only reported a week about it
It's not impossible that Putin thought that this operation would just be ignored like any other he commanded this far
I feel like you're too forgiving. Is the mosin really better than nothing? I'd say no. Think about it, how obsolete would a firearm have to be before it crossed that line? Single-shot breech loader? Rifle musket? Smoothbore musket? Medieval hand cannon?
In the kind of fighting we're seeing in Ukraine, with close quarters trench fighting, lots of suppressive fire, rarely seeing the enemy but firing in their general direction, it doesn't seem like the 5-round bolt action would do you any favors. On the contrary, it seems it would weigh you down, make lots of noise with little result, making you a good target. More importantly, a mosin armed soldier would likely be of better use doing other tasks, leaving actual armed soldiers to do the fighting. Tasks like packing magazines, tending to the wounded, servicing equipment like field guns, mortars etc.
The mosin was showing it's age already in ww1, over 100 years ago. To see it used in a warzone today, between two near-peers, by the 2nd military in the world (supposedly), is nothing short of insanity. For the Russians to have reached that point of "mosin or nothing" boggles the mind. They'd have to have exhausted their supply of: AK-12, AK-74M, AK-74, AKM, AK-47, SKS, SVT-40.
I'm probably reading too much into your comment, but sadly there's a lot of people out there thinking bolt-actions aren't obsolete, and making excuses for this situation.
I’m not looking at the photo right now, so I’m not sure are these particular examples, but yes, we’ve seen them used as DMRs. Still, the guy who has a chance to take rapid follow up shots at distance is gonna outperform the guy who doesn’t.
Ya bolt actions for frontline use are absolutely obsolete but I’d much rather be issued a m91 than a rock. At least then I can defect with something that can protect myself
Bet, you get in one trench with nothing, I'll be in another trench with a Mosin. Using a Mosin in 2023 is beyond ridiculous, but it's still better than nothing
Given that plenty of SKSes were made, why not supply those over Mosins? It would solve ammunition logistical headaches, allow for better fire superiority, and can be modified with aftermarket parts into a semiautomatic faux-AK.
Most SKS from the 1960s onwards (obsolete already after only being in service for like 3 years) were just sent by the USSR and PRC to revolutionaries around the world. China probably still has millions of them sitting around if they haven’t destroyed them yet
I think it's more so they just made way more and even though they gave a ton away they proably have a lot more Mosins, proably still a ton of SKSs and Mosins still in inventory tbh, proably just faster and easier to refurbish the Mosins quickly and in bulk due to the simpler action
Fair enough. Tbh if ww3 comes I do t know if countries like the UK for example, who destroy old machine guns and deactivate service-rifles after replacement; would fair in a ew protracted land war.
They proably are doing this, also the 7.62x54R is already in their logistics system, plenty of PK/PKM/PKPs, SVD/SVDS/SVDM/SVUs floating around, hell I'm pretty sure there's videos of maxim guns, SVTs and even DPs (28s, 28Ms and RP-46s) kicking around, both 39 and 54R are still main staples on the logistics system in addition to 5.45, 9mm and even more outdated and exotic stuff like 7.25 (or whatever the TT and PPSH/PPS is chambered in) 9.39 and all sorts of other stuff kicking around
SVD is outdated as hell, the proper ammo for it is hard/impossible to find, it needs heavier bullets which haven't been produced since early 90's (mind you, I'm not talking about the US, but in post soviet countries). Regular soft steel core ammo which now is usually used with SVD's leads to abysmal accuracy. PKM is good tho, light and handy for an lmg. That being said, the cartridge is outdated, having decent guns to use the cartridge in doesn't mean it is any good. Example: .303 British, outdated rimmed cartridge but has plenty of good guns to use it in, enfields, Brens etc.
Yeah in the US proably, you can still by spam cans of 7N1 here, statisticly its less produced then regular ball cartrages but that dosnt mean it's non existent, it's just way more PK grade ammo is needed then SVD, both in the numbers (you have not just infentry guns but aircraft and vehicle mounted PK deritives like the PKT) of guns useing them and the fact that your going to use way more ammo in a gunfight with a belt fed machinegun then a designated marksman rifle (even a squad level one as the SVD was designed)
It’s absolutely shocking to see the Russian military reduced to this. They struggle to hold ground against a nation with a 120 million less people smaller than some Russian oblasts.
dz187@reddit
And some ppl will still say Russians are not in a bad situation…next they will be issued a PPSH-41 lol
SignificantEar3139@reddit
CHINGG
GreatAmericanEagle@reddit
Sad, that rifle was outdated in WW2
reddituser12346@reddit
Tell that to the White Death. He used one to stack bodies.
SprawlWino@reddit
The Finns rebuilt all the Mosins that got left in the country when they gained their independence. Same base rifle, yeah, but tons of little improvements that made for better and more accurate rifles, with better sights, and when they started building their own Mosins, they kept making them better. A sniper rifle based on Mosin receivers, sometimes even old originals, is still in use with the Finnish Defense Forces, although probably not for much longer.
bobbobersin@reddit
I swear at least during the winter war they had a few unmodified OG ww1-preww1 models in use?
Sirboomsalot_Y-Wing@reddit
I know I’m late to this, but I own an otherwise unmodified 1905 M91 with the SA mark (which they didn’t actually start putting on until the Continuation War iirc) and a post-war stock. About half of the Mosins used by the Finns in both wars were M91 pattern, many with new barrels but also a lot that were mostly unmodified. The M27s, M28s, and M39s made up the other half
SprawlWino@reddit
I mean, it's not impossible. They'd have captured whatever they could from the Soviets during the conflict obviously but it's also entirely plausible they just had a stash of unmodified ones that started getting handed out. I mean, they were also buying Arisakas just to make sure every man had a rifle. But they started making them their own already around 1924, so that's 15 years or so to work on their Mosins before WW2.
Ian has a great video on the subject.
bobbobersin@reddit
It could also have been captured soviet stocks, they had a mix of pre ww1, ww1 and pist ww1 mosins in inventory
Mr_Samurai3@reddit
He mostly used a Suomi submachine gun....
reddituser12346@reddit
Did not know that!
ENclip@reddit
Finn Mosins (M28/30 in this case) might as well be on a different planet compared to 91/30s. Apples to oranges.
Independent-Mud-9597@reddit
Thr american Remington Mosins are also superb to shoot compared to the rest.
AceArchangel@reddit
Yes to shoot at other people (Russians) with... Mosins.
GreatAmericanEagle@reddit
Okay, that doesn’t mean that the rifle wasn’t objectively outdated.
ThisGuyLikesCheese@reddit
It was? Why?
Taolan13@reddit
It wasn't even state of the art for WW1.
The length of the barrel, rimmed cartridge, and overdrawn action were all obsolete by the time the first Great War came to an end.
It was realized very early in WW1, both in the trenches and fields and in the towns and cities, that full "musket length" rifles were no longer practical for regular infantry. Their size limited mobility, and the average engagement distance of armies on maneuver was close enough that the increased effective range was wasted. Also, shorter barrels take less material to make so you can make more rifles.
Rimmed cartridges, where the base of the cartridge exceeds the diameter of the case wall, do not stack as evenly as "rimless" (really a recessed rim) cartridges, requiring curved magazines and limiting the number of rounds you could carry in a given amount of space. Rimless cartridges combined with more consistent double-stack double-feed systems allowed a substantial increase in capacity without a substantial increase in size.
The overly long draw of the bolt on the rifle was also an obsolete feature, but necessitated by the style of magazine and the rimmed cartridges to ensure consistent loading and ejection.
Nesayas1234@reddit
TL;DR: long rifle too long, carbine too short, short rifles good. Rimmed cartridges are annoying, made worse by the bolt.
You're right btw.
Taolan13@reddit
Thats a perfect tl;dr
Nesayas1234@reddit
Thank you.
shoots-shot-hot@reddit
The whole world conscripted during wwi & WWII, they gave their conscripts everything as they were the Fighting force. I've not heard of conscripts being poorly armed due to them being conscripts. Who's Russia holding back "the good stuff" for? This seems a bad decision.
I'm not saying you're wrong just saying that sounds an odd thing to do as conscripts are a necessity in big wars.
Taolan13@reddit
There's a difference between conscripts for a war your people believe in, and conscripts for a war your people want nothing to do with.
shoots-shot-hot@reddit
You didn't answer my question, at all. Now your saying they're under armed because Russia doesn't believe in their own conscripts.
Are you in Russia?
Taolan13@reddit
Russian government doesn't "believe" in anything, first of all.
Second, not all conscription is created equal.
The Russian people know that the conscripts are being recruited to serve as nothing more than bodies. A proverbial wall of meat to halt or delay the advance of enemy forces. In the current conflict as the Russian government attempts to militarily annex Ukraine, even their volunteer troops do not want to be there due to poor conditions and limited supplies. With the conscripts being kept in line by the volunteers, desertion rates are high as evidenced by the abandoned fighting positions. I would not be surprised at all to find out that the Russian army is again gunning down any of its soldiers who retreat, all the while planning to blame the casualties on the Ukrainian forces "shooting Russian civilians in the back".
shoots-shot-hot@reddit
The Russian citizens know this? I'm guessing you must be a Russian citizen or have family in Russia telling you this?
You come off as very hearsay & emotionally driven in your vomitous ejaculation.
Taolan13@reddit
You come off as someone who supports the Russian government in their war of aggression against Ukraine.
shoots-shot-hot@reddit
No, what I do is question you. It seems you aren't accustomed to being questioned on your flimsy ideologies, so you lash out from your emotions. 😎👍
Taolan13@reddit
Yet you dont question the other guy who responded, who did not say anything counter to what I said, and explained the difference between western and russian conscription quite eloquently, so clearly you have chosen your target already.
baldeagle1991@reddit
You generally hold back the good stuff for the Marine, Airborne, Volunteer and Guard units.
After those your motorised and mechanised units who will be expected to do more complicated combat actions than your conscripts.
Conscripts generally are their used to hold positions, potentially used in offensives in desperation or to probe the enemy positions or as distractions. Because of this you'll generally give the best weapons to the best trained troops who will have the most effect on the battlefield.
We don't generally see the same effect in many western formation because:
1) Many nations have to reject some of their conscripts because they have more than enough troops and generally have minimum equipment + training standards (aka they can't afford to train everyone or even desire to)
2) Once the shooting starts many conscripts in western service will be mixed in with Volunteer troops as they will generally perform better that way
Russia and prior/previously the USSR always relied on it's mass, but always struggled to recruit volunteers simply due to the demographics and Geography of the country.
shoots-shot-hot@reddit
Well this was cool. Thank you for a detailed response. What you described reminds me of the "man floods" China did in WWII? Maybe Korea? I can't remember
Master_Shopping9652@reddit
After WW1, all new Rifles where shortened the the Cossal Rifles length. M91/30
AdonisAleus@reddit
I'm just wondering where all the old AKs went
Large-Welder304@reddit
China, the middle east, south america.
Taolan13@reddit
Many were exported for sale, both legally and illegally, and many are in the hands of the mafia.
More than likely russian army records were fudged to cover black market sales and their actual inventory was a fraction of what was on the books.
Large-Welder304@reddit
" It wasn't even state of the art for WW1. "
HaHaHa!!! Classic!
Thanks Taolan13, that was a good one. =D
DoNotCensorMyName@reddit
What do you mean by overdrawn action?
Taolan13@reddit
The bolt, and the draw of the bolt for a complete cycle, are both longer than they need to be. This is especially the case for the original rifle pattern. For most shooters, you cannot maintain a stable firing position and good sight picture with that configuration.
It affects the efficiency of the rifles use in combat
BiggusDickus17@reddit
Have you ever shot a mosin? Horrid action compared to it's contemporaries.
BlueGlassDrink@reddit
I've known multiple Mosins that have bolts that have to be knocked open with a hammer. . .
shoots-shot-hot@reddit
How does the bolt arm with stand being hit with a hammer?
BlueGlassDrink@reddit
Well, if this answers your question: I've also known multiple mosins that have handles rewelded back onto the bolt.
MISSISSIPPIPPISSISSI@reddit
Same.
throwawayaccyaboi223@reddit
True, but the ones made before 1942 and after 1945 are a lot better to shoot. Those were the years when they were like "oh fuck we need guns and we needed them yesterday" so QC really fell through the floor.
They're clunky, unwieldy and heavy but still shoot a hard hitting round.
bobbobersin@reddit
I feel like with any ww1 to ww2 guns there's sweet spots in production years located before ww1 and between the wars, also after the war as well
MISSISSIPPIPPISSISSI@reddit
Yeah, until they heat up and the bolt gets fucking stuck. Mosins are dog shit compared to their contemporaries of the time.
Mr_Samurai3@reddit
I had a K44 carbine, the action worked fine. I would not feel poorly armed with it at all....
BlueGlassDrink@reddit
It was developed in the late 1890s
GreatAmericanEagle@reddit
It’s a long rifle using a rimmed cartridge in an outdated bolt action when even the better bolt actions had been eclipsed by the auto loaders like the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, STG44.
appalachian-surplus@reddit
Some of y'all are acting like a 91/30 is a smoothbore matchlock musket, 5 shots of 7.62x54r ain't no joke
Jaco-Strangeways@reddit
I have a feeling these weren't actually issued by the Russian military as some have claimed, but we're rather being used by Russian seperatist forces in Donetsk and Luhansk. Many of these guys were bringing guns from home, and if they knew how to use it and didn't have an alternative, it's better than nothing. It's not entirely useless in a trench, even the carbines have an effective range of roughly 500 meters. It's definitely outdated, but I'd rather have a Mosin than a knife.
I'm just a guy spitting shit on the internet, I'm not a soldier. I just shoot my Type 53 occasionally and know a little bit about the war. I could be completely off.
rulepanic@reddit (OP)
You're right, mostly. Russia ordered general mobilization in their puppet "states" DNR/LNR just prior to the war. That continued for months until they basically ran out of men. These guys were used as little more than cannon fodder. I've seen a few theories as to why these guys were being widely issued Mosin's - the two biggest being lack of rifles in DNR/LNR inventory and that they didn't trust some of the mobilized and so wanted them equipped worse than reg RU troops. I think it was mostly supply incompetence, as we saw wagner cannon fodder prisoners issued AK-74's. There's an absolute huge number of WW2 small arms still in storage in both Ukraine and Russia. I don't think these were being brought from home, I think they were probably dug up from old storage in mines and the like and issued out because they needed troops now, not later.
Russia does still actually issue Mosins today, but almost always the sniper version with a scope - likely to act as DM/sniper role. There was a video of a Russian with one just a few days ago.
S1ss1@reddit
Do they have scopes? It kinda looks that way and it kinda doesn't
zombiehunter5972@reddit
Yes. Every photo I've seen of mosins in Ukraine have had scopes. They could just be using them as snipers and not as main weapons like most people seem to think.
Nesayas1234@reddit
I like the Mosin, but damn would I be sad if I was given this. If I was a Russian, I'd at least want an SKS or PPSh (if we're going back to pre-1950s tech).
CarolinaGunSlinger@reddit
Jesus imagine getting issued a mosin during all this.
Nesayas1234@reddit
I'd rather get a PPSh, or a PPD, or a PPS. Yeah it's still outdated compared to an AL, but I'm not too worried about long range in a trench and the caliber/ammo capacity isn't bad.
At the very least, if I'm getting a rifle, give me an SVT or SKS.
rulepanic@reddit (OP)
Which do you prefer, being an infantryman with a Mosin, or a tanker with a T-54/55.
https://twitter.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1674477672360034304
https://twitter.com/LivFaustDieJung/status/1674499417355743236
CarolinaGunSlinger@reddit
I'm not much of a tank guy. Are these wwii tanks?
baldeagle1991@reddit
Ish.... the first production model was made in 1947.
The 1945 prototype version was basically a T-44 with a bigger gun. It was then modified to a recognisable T-54 form being adopted in 1946 and entered serial production in 1947 and 1948.
The T-44 is a WW2 vintage tank, with despite 960 being made in WW2, was not used on the western front due to spare parts supply, training and the desire to keep the tank secret. It does however seem to have served potentially in combat over the last few days of the war on the eastern front against japan.
The T-44 itself being very close to a T54 hull with and T34 turret and gun (with a T55 gun on some models)
So in effect you have a WW2 style of tank being currently used in Ukraine
TLDR: It's basically a WW2 tank that didn't enter service until the cold war (if that makes sense?)
ENclip@reddit
Early Cold War.
CarolinaGunSlinger@reddit
Wow. Ngl. I'd fucking desert bro. I'd go hide out in Siberia and pray to god i don't freeze to death.
rulepanic@reddit (OP)
The first T-54 was produced in 1945, though it wasnt until the 1950s they went into serial production. T-55 entered production in 1955 and continued for a few decades.
Master_Shopping9652@reddit
Honestly if MANPADS are destroying contemporary tanks, then migh as well fill the gaps with older tanks. These older machines still have a gun on them 🤷♂️
The_Tymster80@reddit
MANPADS = MAN Portable Air Defence Systems
The only part of Russian tanks known to fly are the turrets… but I don’t think hitting them with a MANPADS is a good use of ammo.
bobbobersin@reddit
???? What manpads are you talking about? Only thing I can think of capable of that is the starstriek and even then your at best going to mobility kill an MBT if your lucky unless you get a Luke Skywalker shot and have the little submunitions pen just right to hit the fuel or ammunition
Master_Shopping9652@reddit
Sorry, I forgot CSTO Forces don't have MANPADS
KMjolnir@reddit
Dude, that's just painful and pitiful at this point.
Czeslaw_Meyer@reddit
Either a punishment battalion or a photograph of the oldest weapons the Ukrainians got to boost moral implying that the Russians are useing the same weapons as there lowest
rulepanic@reddit (OP)
Interestingly penal units seem to be equipped with AK's of various types. Mosins show up a lot on the southern front in the hands of Russian territorial units.
Czeslaw_Meyer@reddit
Those stationed there in the last 2 wars?
rulepanic@reddit (OP)
Huh?
Czeslaw_Meyer@reddit
Donbas and the Crimea peninsula got annexed in 2 steps by pro russian troops in 2014. Officially a civil war which never really ended, but noone, not even Ukraine, really cared about. Despite obvious Russion army support nothing happened and EU media only reported a week about it
It's not impossible that Putin thought that this operation would just be ignored like any other he commanded this far
Dr_Sir1969@reddit
Obsolete does not mean ineffective. A rifle is better than no rifle. Albeit the mosin at this point is begging to be retired lol
random_username_idk@reddit
I feel like you're too forgiving. Is the mosin really better than nothing? I'd say no. Think about it, how obsolete would a firearm have to be before it crossed that line? Single-shot breech loader? Rifle musket? Smoothbore musket? Medieval hand cannon?
In the kind of fighting we're seeing in Ukraine, with close quarters trench fighting, lots of suppressive fire, rarely seeing the enemy but firing in their general direction, it doesn't seem like the 5-round bolt action would do you any favors. On the contrary, it seems it would weigh you down, make lots of noise with little result, making you a good target. More importantly, a mosin armed soldier would likely be of better use doing other tasks, leaving actual armed soldiers to do the fighting. Tasks like packing magazines, tending to the wounded, servicing equipment like field guns, mortars etc.
The mosin was showing it's age already in ww1, over 100 years ago. To see it used in a warzone today, between two near-peers, by the 2nd military in the world (supposedly), is nothing short of insanity. For the Russians to have reached that point of "mosin or nothing" boggles the mind. They'd have to have exhausted their supply of: AK-12, AK-74M, AK-74, AKM, AK-47, SKS, SVT-40.
I'm probably reading too much into your comment, but sadly there's a lot of people out there thinking bolt-actions aren't obsolete, and making excuses for this situation.
Master_Shopping9652@reddit
Isn't it being used with PU scopes, as a DMR?
adenrules@reddit
I’m not looking at the photo right now, so I’m not sure are these particular examples, but yes, we’ve seen them used as DMRs. Still, the guy who has a chance to take rapid follow up shots at distance is gonna outperform the guy who doesn’t.
Dr_Sir1969@reddit
Ya bolt actions for frontline use are absolutely obsolete but I’d much rather be issued a m91 than a rock. At least then I can defect with something that can protect myself
bobbobersin@reddit
If it shoots it works, hell even a flintlock could he used liberator pistol style, blast a dude in ambush, take their gun and then your good
_Zoring_@reddit
I'd much rather be in a trench with my hands in the air than trying to use a 91/30 vs a M4
ddog925@reddit
Bet, you get in one trench with nothing, I'll be in another trench with a Mosin. Using a Mosin in 2023 is beyond ridiculous, but it's still better than nothing
applesjustapples@reddit
"nyet rifle is fine"
Mr_Samurai3@reddit
Downvotes for all Ukraine bootlickers here.
BiggieCheese63@reddit
Given that plenty of SKSes were made, why not supply those over Mosins? It would solve ammunition logistical headaches, allow for better fire superiority, and can be modified with aftermarket parts into a semiautomatic faux-AK.
dainegleesac690@reddit
Most SKS from the 1960s onwards (obsolete already after only being in service for like 3 years) were just sent by the USSR and PRC to revolutionaries around the world. China probably still has millions of them sitting around if they haven’t destroyed them yet
Master_Shopping9652@reddit
But they kept the 3-line Rifles....
bobbobersin@reddit
I think it's more so they just made way more and even though they gave a ton away they proably have a lot more Mosins, proably still a ton of SKSs and Mosins still in inventory tbh, proably just faster and easier to refurbish the Mosins quickly and in bulk due to the simpler action
Master_Shopping9652@reddit
Fair enough. Tbh if ww3 comes I do t know if countries like the UK for example, who destroy old machine guns and deactivate service-rifles after replacement; would fair in a ew protracted land war.
bobbobersin@reddit
They proably are doing this, also the 7.62x54R is already in their logistics system, plenty of PK/PKM/PKPs, SVD/SVDS/SVDM/SVUs floating around, hell I'm pretty sure there's videos of maxim guns, SVTs and even DPs (28s, 28Ms and RP-46s) kicking around, both 39 and 54R are still main staples on the logistics system in addition to 5.45, 9mm and even more outdated and exotic stuff like 7.25 (or whatever the TT and PPSH/PPS is chambered in) 9.39 and all sorts of other stuff kicking around
TWR3545@reddit
They still use 54R and Mosins can still shoot ok
el_comediano98@reddit
Which is a 130 year old cartridge that was out of date by WW1 considering existence of 8mm mauser
TWR3545@reddit
The SVD and PKM would say otherwise
el_comediano98@reddit
SVD is outdated as hell, the proper ammo for it is hard/impossible to find, it needs heavier bullets which haven't been produced since early 90's (mind you, I'm not talking about the US, but in post soviet countries). Regular soft steel core ammo which now is usually used with SVD's leads to abysmal accuracy. PKM is good tho, light and handy for an lmg. That being said, the cartridge is outdated, having decent guns to use the cartridge in doesn't mean it is any good. Example: .303 British, outdated rimmed cartridge but has plenty of good guns to use it in, enfields, Brens etc.
bobbobersin@reddit
Yeah in the US proably, you can still by spam cans of 7N1 here, statisticly its less produced then regular ball cartrages but that dosnt mean it's non existent, it's just way more PK grade ammo is needed then SVD, both in the numbers (you have not just infentry guns but aircraft and vehicle mounted PK deritives like the PKT) of guns useing them and the fact that your going to use way more ammo in a gunfight with a belt fed machinegun then a designated marksman rifle (even a squad level one as the SVD was designed)
MISSISSIPPIPPISSISSI@reddit
The pols did it right when they built .308 PKMs.
el_comediano98@reddit
Not really, it became too heavy imo
CanadaIsDecent@reddit
Imagine getting fucked by Mosin man while your running state of the art gear
bobbobersin@reddit
The tarkov/dayz/squad/OG cod warzone expirence
Large-Welder304@reddit
If it ain't broke, why fix it?
MOSIN FOREVER! DA! =)
TannerThaManner@reddit
It’s absolutely shocking to see the Russian military reduced to this. They struggle to hold ground against a nation with a 120 million less people smaller than some Russian oblasts.
themightysnail64@reddit
Russian soldier: Putin, I want Kalash
Putin: We have Kalash at home
Kalash at home:
ToughNefariousness23@reddit
Mosins still hit like a freight train, though.
Don138@reddit
The average American civilian is better armed than Ruzzian soldiers...
Educational_Bug1022@reddit
Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦!
FloridaSpam@reddit
Indiana Jones Pop ups " it belongs in a museum!"
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