Are foreigners who completely assimilate into your culture and abandon their native culture accepted?
Posted by Ahmed_45901@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 47 comments
Title
Sudden_Shock8434@reddit
Yes, but they need to accept their new identities, not artificially, but naturally, similar to the Turkification or Greekization of Anatolian natives, for example, Iranian Albanian and Bosnian immigrants were able to achieve this, while Syrians and Afghans could not.
Niocs@reddit
the turkification of course was very natural
Sudden_Shock8434@reddit
Look who said that. Byzantium became a Hellenistic empire after the 4th Crusade lol. It started to carry out ethnic cleansing and massacres against non-Hellenic minorities, Armenians and Jews. The Ottoman Empire did not carry out ethnic cleansing until its last years.
Niocs@reddit
some major bullshit. Armenians literally made emperos (e.g. Heraclius was half Armenian). Turks forced others to become Turks by the sword. You are probably not even a real Turk
Sagaru_Y@reddit
You are probably not even a real Greek but a hellenized Anatolian/Slavic larper. Bonus points if you have Arvanite ancestors, larper.
Uberwaltigent1234@reddit
no
snowflakebutterly-@reddit
I think they’re accepted as you can’t change their ethnicity, even as assimilated as they become. I would say most are more shamed rather than shunned.
If they do try to come back to their culture, I’d say they’re welcomed,of course, some even pushed. But regardless, they’re guilt tripped about it either way.
Tropadol@reddit
I’d rather people try to assimilate rather than deliberately refuse to integrate, like those Arabs, Indians and Pakistanis you see in Western Europe.
ilovemangos3@reddit
why do you think they refuse to integrate?
Tropadol@reddit
Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes. They go in the cities and form these ghettos where you feel like a foreigner if you go in (And yeah technically I’m a foreigner too, but it feels like you’re somewhere in the Middle East or South Asia, and not in a good way).
Almost no one speaks the language of the country they are in, I have seen 2nd and even 3rd generation immigrants with a very poor ability to speak the local language of the city.
Generally they have a very poor respect for the area and it usually looks like some sort of slum. All of the shop (and sometimes even street) signs are in Arabic/Hindi/whatever and it stinks of shit pretty much all the time.
And after a while they start getting into public service/local government positions where they get a big enough foothold to give preferential treatment to their community members, and before you know it, the area is overrun and totally unrecognisable.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
You could not say this on another subreddit
I see what you’re saying but you said it yourself, you’re a foreigner too. At what point does your argument change from “they need to redirect their integration process” to “I just don’t like them”
Tropadol@reddit
The difference between me and them is that I don't bring or try to implement my cultural mentality in a foreign land.
That and I don't turn the area I live into a slum.
I have been allowed to live here. It's a privilege, not a right, so I treat the local area, culture and language with respect. It's not that hard, but certain groups of other immigrants seem to think that they seem to have a right to do whatever the fuck they want here, act like monkeys and devolve the areas they live in, and end up making the local population hate them in the process.
They ruin it for the rest of us who want to work for a better life and keep our heads down, so I guess by extension that means no, I don't like them. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I despise them and the way they behave.
If hordes of Macedonians moved here and began behaving in the same way, I would have the same feelings. I don't give a fuck where you're from, it's just a matter of common decency and respect.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
What are they doing that makes them act like monkeys?
In reality a lot of the immigrant communities I know do open cultural shops, do have parties in which their cultural norms might differ, do educate their kids with their home mentality but they keep to themselves usually?
There are some instances where members of a particular or a few immigrant communities cause problems to people’s safety, but I think this is rare.
We have to be fair. Fair is fair. I personally am not as fascinated with Pakistani culture as I am with Romanian culture, let’s say, but I can’t accept more Romanians than Pakistanis in my country just because I can relate to one more than the other
MrPsychSiege@reddit
Trash on the streets everywhere, shouting across the streets to each other loudly, spitting everywhere, hanging out in large groups of men, staring down people who "don't belong" (i.e. ironally the actual locals of the country), catcalling women..I could go on but if you've ever lived in a western European country, you get the idea.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Okay don’t downvote me, I’m just giving you counter-arguments.
People say that Balkaners also catcall women, and that they’ll move in large male groups with their own kind. Were certainly very loud too.
The argument goes that you only notice these traits with other immigrants more because they’re non-white and that you refuse to see their culture is anything other than inferior or less-than
MrPsychSiege@reddit
What kind of counter argument is that? Pulling out huge assumptions, without even knowing me.
Sure, so would you say that Pakistanis or Moroccans integrate into Dutch society just as well as say Slovenians (or other Balkaners for that matter) do?
Trust me, my issue is not their skin tone but rather the behaviors I mentioned earlier. Maybe Balkan people exhbiti some of these behaviors too (though not nearly at this level) But it's just not what I see here in the NL - for one, also because there are simply way less Balkaners than Morrocans here.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
(It’s not my counterargument, I’m just responding with the arguments I heard)
And I guess that’s where an impasse is reached. You say Balkaners are disrespectful towards women but “not to that level”, others say “yes, to that level” or “it doesn’t matter”, you say no they say yes then they say the only reason why you’re saying that is because you have feelings of racism and anti-coloredness that are so deeply engrained and internalized in you that you think your thought process is actually normal and not inherently dehumanizing to BIPOC.
Trust me, I’ve been around the block a few times with this. There’s no winning. The only way is to vote for a politician who’s crazy af and I don’t want to do that.
No culture like being singled out, and if youre gonna name “Morrocans” you better be ready to get psychologically dissected. You thought my comments were personal? You don’t know the half of it
Alexander241020@reddit
Of course you can accept whatever you want, there is no rule about this
darkopetrovic@reddit
Where the fuck did you see this?
Because this is exactly what’s happing here in Australia even the local government thing you mentioned.
etnoexodus@reddit
Can confirm I've seen this in the UK mostly, but many other major Wastern European countries
Tropadol@reddit
I've seen it in the UK. It's actually a shame to see. If you look at old photos, some are places are now totally unrecognisable. Just full of shitty bazaars selling nothing but junk.
The saying "Import the third-world, become the third-world" exists for a reason.
EleFacCafele@reddit
Same in the UK.
hitlicks4aliving@reddit
It’s not always true. I live in a place that’s at least 20% Indian but they’re all super educated scientists and tech workers and these fellas live like kings, but still they are very stingy with their money. The ghettos you talk about are the working class ones.
TravelForsaken@reddit
Foreigners who don't completely assimilate are accepted, why wouldn't the ones who do it completely
TechnicalEmployee735@reddit
Why would you abandon your culture? If you are from the Middle East (I assume, by your name) our cultures have a lot in common
EveryValuable9384@reddit
Which country in the Balkans has cultural similarities to Middle East?
TechnicalEmployee735@reddit
all
EveryValuable9384@reddit
Wtf that's not true at all. There are communities of muslims, but the mass has nothing in common with the middle east culture. Hell even muslim communities here don't marry their first cousins, it's frowned upon culturally and even illegal.
TechnicalEmployee735@reddit
I was talking more about food, mentality and music not religion or marrying your cousins
SamiTheAnxiousBean@reddit
I personally wouldn't care if they've fully assimilated or abandoned their own culture
as long as you're not causing issues to others or being an asshole, Im fine with you, I appriciate cultural differences as well
However (and ironically) judging by everything ive seen Irl
I'd say that (at least in Serbia) the answer is sadly no, even if you have citizenship
HumanMan00@reddit
Im not sure what you r talking about in the last two sentances.
There are so many minorities in Serbia that hadnt assimilated but are bilingual and live here for generations.
Magyars Slovaks Albanians Vlachs Etc.
Sure, due to the ethnic nature of the wars in the 90s old folks dont like minorities cuz they fear separatizm.
One of our famed generals in the wwI was Šturm - a naturalized German Sorb. We followed him to fucking hell.
Does Šešelj sound Serbian to you?
Sjedi ba i poslušaj profesora: https://youtu.be/xXQORBotRRA?si=6pbR6uetDLrHCuiC
SamiTheAnxiousBean@reddit
Atleast where I'm living at, you could gain citizenship, fully adapt, abandon your native culture, learn the language to a native Level etc.
and you'd still get treated differently or (if you have a different skin tone) stared at just because you, your parents, or your grandparents weren't born and raised in this shithole
HumanMan00@reddit
Sandžaklija?
I dont know dude, things most ppl find racist we do on the regular basis.
People who move from another place get niclnames based on that place, we constantly rip on each other based on origin within the country let alone other countries, we assume stereotypes are true openly and start asking questions about them, but i dont think that, let’s say non-Balkan ppl would be treated badly by most.
You always have to ask the question in the Balkans “Is he racists cuz he’s racist or is he racist because he’s being an asshole”.
If i as a Nišlija move to Novi Pazar will i get the same treatment as u’d think the foreigners would get?
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
People usually take two or three generations to completely abandon and shed off their culture. I think this question is very hypothetical and not very pragmatic
BuonTabib@reddit
Honestly
I'd think most people in the Balkans would really cringe out if they see someone trying to assimilate completely
I think they'll more respect you if you just stay yourself and dont do bad stuff
But, assimilating, it gives some people even a much bigger feeling of superiority
bemtiglavuudupe@reddit
People here are responding with their theoretical ideas of successful integration of immigrants, and not answering the post question - whether those moving to Balkan countries are accepted.
Chinese immigrants you see running China shops, Middle Easterners getting stuck on their way to EU, South Asians driving buses and trucks… well, they’re accepted in a sense that they come and stay, but it’s far from a decent integration and mingling with the locals, just like many people from the Balkans do when they move to Switzerland or elsewhere. A little bit of isolation and sticking together, a little bit of language barrier, a little bit of racism, it adds up.
On the other hand, Russian immigrants, while still often hanging out with other Russians, integrated better than the others. The cultural and class differences in these demographics certainly play a role too, but so does how welcoming the local population is and what stereotypes they have about specific immigrant groups.
smallbean-@reddit
I’ve been accepted pretty well as an American in rural Albania. I’m not great at the language but I know enough to get by and be able to talk to people in town. They definitely think some of the things I do are a bit odd (like having a reusable water bottle that goes everywhere with me), but I haven’t felt out of place here. Also helps that it’s really easy to live in Albania, feels similar to the small town back in America that where I spent my summers.
MrImAlwaysrighT1981@reddit
Aren't they everywhere accepted?
ImamTrump@reddit
No you develop a hybrid where your own country men see you foreigner and foreigners see you as foreigner too.
You just learn to make friends and most of them are also foreigners that are now hybrids.
It’s the way it’s always been.
Zandroe_@reddit
Obviously, it varies from individual to individual. Sadly there are always people who will give you shit if you look different, particularly if you're black or visibly "Middle Eastern"* or South Asian. On the other hand, I think the majority would not treat such a person any differently. There are a few assimilated Arabs, Africans, South Americans etc. in Croatia, mostly from the Yugoslav period.
* This is kind of a bad term as most Levantines will look indistinguishable from the "natives", but think more the Arabian Peninsula etc.
Puzzleheaded_Sir903@reddit
They don't need to abandon their culture. They just need to respect local culture.
My grandmother's friend was Italian from Rome. She married a Serb and moved to Belgrade in 1930s.
She learned to speak Serbian but she never abandoned being Italian. She visited Italy whenever she could.
jebiga_au@reddit
I’ve met a few foreigners in Australia who have abandoned their culture due to coming from oppressive countries. Of course they are accepted, but with one dude in particular, he tried a little too hard to “fit in” and it came across as artificial. We are so diverse here, so just be a good person and most people will naturally accept you.
I’ll give you an example how it typically goes in this country, based on my observations.
First generation: Broken English. Mainly sticks to the diaspora community within their new country. Might have a few friends of different backgrounds from work.
Second generation: Went to school in Australia, formed multicultural friendship groups. Haven’t fully abandoned their native culture, as they likely still communicate to their parents in their native language. Might eventually marry a person of a different culture.
Third generation: Likely raised in an English-speaking household. I wouldn’t say they abandoned their native culture(s), but they didn’t have much of a choice as they had very little exposure to it growing up.
That’s usually how it goes, and not many people here in Australia really notice it.
darkopetrovic@reddit
This is literally my olde brother me and my children.
kruska345@reddit
People in this sub are probably gonna give you more of an idealistic answer of what they want the Balkans to be, instead of the reality.
I assume from your username that you're muslim, visibly darker than the average Balkan citizen. Yeah, you will have incidents every now and then. Most likely the vast majority of the population will be fine with you but you very likely will stumble upon racists and islamophobes, who are very loud and agressive. If you plan on moving, I recommend you to rather move to another European region that is more adapted to foreigners if you want to make sure you'll be accepted.
AideSpartak@reddit
Are they born here?
If they are born in Bulgaria I would expect them to be Bulgarian and from my experience that’s how people born here behave.
If they aren’t born here, then they are welcome to bring their culture from wherever it is as long as they respect us and our way of life. But again from my experience, I haven’t really seen foreigners trying to bring their way of life in Bulgaria, while not respecting us. I honestly don’t think it’s much to ask for and fortunately the vast majority of foreigners I’ve seen do follow that. You can always bring parts of your culture here but you must understand you are a foreigner and that it’s you who must integrate rather than the other way around
Papa-pumpking@reddit
As long as they speak the local language and they are not a general nuisance it's enough for me.I dont really care if they became fully integrated Romanian or not.
OnlyFax123@reddit
Depends on how white they are