Is English both a nationality and ethnic group?
Posted by Dami0904@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 127 comments
Alright so I ask this cause loads of people born and raised in England rather identify as British rather than English.
I feel anyone born and raised in England is English whether from an immigrant background or not. I feel they are English either by nationality or ethnic roots. Who agrees with me?
In Wales, Scotland and Ireland, people (born and raised there) proudly identify as Welsh, Scottish and Irish regardless of their heritage.
IntelligentSkill5503@reddit
English is an ethnicity. It is highly disrespectful to say you can be English just because you were born there. Its like saying a white person can be Navajo. We are a people! If anyone can just be English, then we belong to no ethnic group. If I lived in Nigeria would I be Nigerian? And do you think the Chinese were always Chinese? No, they come from different tribes that united just like the English.
pandogart@reddit
If you were born AND raised in Nigeria then yeah I'd call you'd be Nigerian. The same way Elon Musk is South African. It's not that hard to grasp. You can be ethnically English AND nationally English. Especially considering "English" dna is a mix of many different ethnic groups from Britons, to Anglo-Saxons to Normans which were also mixes of different ethnic groups.
My parents are Nigerian yet I was born and raised in Ireland and work and live there. Only passport I have is Irish and I learned Gailege in school. No one can tell me I'm not Irish.
AppearanceOk2444@reddit
Nonsense Nigerian is a tribal society. If I was a white guy born in Nigeria I wouldnt be a member of those tribes or nationality wise Nigerian. Normans like French generally have Germanic words in vocab like Vikings. The Vikings werent one people with one identity anyway and most Normans adopted English langusge and culture they rarely kept it in England they adopted the general culture here so no they didnt keep separate culture. Vikings didnt either. Pub culture predates Vikings and in most parts Vikings were pub culture is. People are just trying to pretend the Vikings were like Irish or Chinese (a distinct people) which is totally false!
pandogart@reddit
Nigeria and the Nigerian identity is a collection of MANY different tribes and people who speak different languages. Hell, the only reason why it's a united country in the first place is because of colonisation. If you were born and raised there and had citizenship, how would you not be Nigerian?
It took a very long time for the Normans to fully assimilate into English culture. About 200 years at least. It was the loss of French lands and the 100 years war that encouraged further assimilation.
AppearanceOk2444@reddit
English identity existed before Normans and Viking hundreds of years to be exact every text says this. So not even sure what you are on about! Minorities are getting grief in England as they refuse to learn anything or respect people and pushing their own agendas and way of life. Some respect most dont. If people did that in Nigeria there would be uproar! š¤¦āāļø
AppearanceOk2444@reddit
Nonsense most normans married English women and assimilated quickly even texts say this. The Normans were always a tiny minority in England and most English refused to learn French. To suggest English people dont have a unique history culture and identity and we are same as other ethnic groups is ignorant and offensive! Sorry but we are not the same we arent the same as Germans or Irish let alone anyone else! Yes in Nigeria there isnt one culture all of those groups celebrate that separately. Nigerian is a nationality not an ethnic group. In England there is! Sorry to inform you. You are just showing ignorance I suggest learn about it! š¤¦āāļø
LH211069@reddit
You aren't irish 𤣠your an Irish citzen whos ethically NigerianĀ
Dangerous-Collar4318@reddit
you will never be Irish, you have a temporary Irish passport, Ireland and Britain do not have birthright like the US does. Irish is an ethnicity. Do you understand how arrogant it is to appropriate a culture and feel emboldened because it's white and you are racist?
CampaignMinute7500@reddit
I disagree. Elon Musk is from South Africa but his ethic roots are European. Even black South Africans refer to white South Africans as European.Ā
That_Ad_458@reddit
According to you but according to the un south africans are african
Ambitious-Poet4992@reddit
And other South Africans refer to white South Africans as African whatās your point? Itās obviously a contentious issue but they are African regardless
ZealousidealCan4075@reddit
You are not Irish.
BagAcceptable9240@reddit
Lies
Immediate-Dare-7449@reddit
Your Irish but donāt have Irish heritage thatās ok and that is ok
Downtown_Trash_6140@reddit
Doesnāt that also go for every single European country?? The Norman ancestry isnāt much in UK and neither is the Angelo Saxon. Itās very old ancestry.
Roland_Gropper@reddit
So I'm British but not English? I was born in England, my grandparents came from Guyana but my ancestors came from India (my ancestry is 100% India). I've never left the UK except for holidays abroad.
AppearanceOk2444@reddit
You are Guyanan/Caribbean/Indian depending on your culture. The English are an ethnic group. British is not an ethnic group
Zytose@reddit
Scots, Welsh and English are British. Being you were born in England you're both. Your ethnic and family roots are Indian.
It can be a bit confusing because there's White: English as an ethnicity but also an identity.
ohhhtee@reddit
2 years too late but good lord. "highly disrespectful" shut up. of all the ethnic groups in the world, the brits have had it so fucking easy for so long. we have one of the largest diasporas in the world. this really is so egregious...
fyi, nigerians and chinese people still identify with multiple different ethnic groups.
That_Ad_458@reddit
england is not an ethnicity its a place always has been the ethnicity part would be anglo-saxon
To_Be_Commenting@reddit
England is literally the land of the Angles.
shahjaahan1993@reddit
And the Anglos are from Scandinavia, Norway and Denmark. And the Saxons are from Germany.Ā
They invaded, pillaged, destroyed, killed and raped when they got to Britain.
After they pushed the Celts out, they built the land we now call England.Ā
My opinion is that the land is called England, but the ethnicity is Anglo Saxon.Ā
Regardless of someone's ethnicity, if he is born in England and is a recognised citizen of this land, then he is English.Ā
Wolfways@reddit
Not even close to reality. The germainic tribes came to Britain and settled with the celts. Sure there was some fighting, but the celts were never pushed out of England. Most English are descended from celts.
The UK is not Anglo-Saxon. That was a misnomer. We are Celts.
Flaky-Paper-24@reddit
The land was named after the people.
WrongCustard69@reddit
English are made up of a unique mix, but have pretty much stayed the same for the last 1000 years , by your logic no ethnicities exist as they are all a mix of different people's
elf757@reddit
Completely wrong!!! Here's what AI says: British refers to a nationality, which is a political and legal status tied to a sovereign state (the United Kingdom) and citizenship, rather than a race or a singular ethnicity.Ā While theĀ United KingdomĀ is a multicultural society with diverse ethnic groups, a person's nationality identifies their connection to the state.Ā
AskUK-ModTeam@reddit
AI generated comments are not allowed
AppearanceOk2444@reddit
English is an ethnicity like Japanese is an ethnicity we share a common language culture set of traditions humour and way of thinking. You cannot be English by being born here that would be just English nationality which is different. English identity comes from Angli Saxon period. You can see any ancient text and the people referred to themselves as Anglecynn or Englisc look at any ancient text it says that. They used that term in far south and far north with Venerable Bede. They spoke a common language and had common culture. Anything after that is not relevant identity wise. Angli Saxon society was very tribal and oral like all northern european areas
MurkyAd1954@reddit
you can be ethnically english, nationally english or both. english is an ethnicity, we have genetic differences to other ethnicities even if theyre small. yes, english dna is made up of lots of different peoples (celtic britons, angles, saxons..) but thats the same for many different ethnicities. the most obvious example of this without going into the confusing topic that is dna and genetics, i find sometimes you can absolutely tell if someone is irish, scottish, welsh or english - more so with irish and english but they all have their differences - i suggest you look into it its quite interesting. as much as people make out we arent, we are actually all very similar genetically. the irish tend to be predominantly gael, welsh predominantly briton, scottish gael / germanic and english briton / germanic - this is really dumbing it down but you get the point.Ā
the reason a more common identity is british over english is because of the high mixing of all four countries (including ireland because of the high amount of irish people in england, im aware ireland isnt british) so its easier to just say british, for example half my family is scottish and half is english. its just easier - i do think we need to rebuild the english identity, people are ashamed to say theyre english because of groups that make it something to be ashamed of by association. but reality is, being english is much more than that - its much more than the british empire and the monarchy, we have our own unique culture, dialects, history that goes far beyond all that.Ā
That_Ad_458@reddit
mate your probably french because the normans outnumbered the saxons after the whole conquest thing
First-Of-His-Name@reddit
Uhhh in the nobility sure but the majority of the population was still Anglo Saxon after the conquest
That_Ad_458@reddit
"Genetic studies estimate that, on average, roughlyĀ 25% to 40%Ā of the ancestry of modern people in England is derived from Anglo-Saxon migrations. While higher concentrations are found in eastern England, the average UK resident has approximately 37% Anglo-Saxon ancestry." https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35344663#:\~:text=From%20there%2C%20the%20scientists%20could%20track%20the,England%2C%20closest%20to%20where%20the%20migrants%20settled.
Lassie7777@reddit
Mate⦠the other percentage is Celtic Brythonic dna. The Anglo Saxons intermarried with them. The Normanās were a small ruling class I think initially about 20,000
Physical_Star_7854@reddit
Rubbish.
That_Ad_458@reddit
OH OH MY WHAT AN ELOQUENTLY PUT TOGETHER ARGUMENT IM IM SPEECHELESS sybau
Rumpisthedevil@reddit
South African born immigrant here with an Irish last name. If someone really pressed me Iād probably say I was English. However day to day Iām a Brit. The United Kingdom is something to be cherished, such a tight union of four separate countries doesnāt exist anywhere else to my (probably limited) knowledge.
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
As far as I am concerned, English really can't only be an ethnicity only, since it has been evaded by people of different backgrounds. It is also linked to Culture and Nationality, I feel
WrongCustard69@reddit
Most ethnicities are a mix of different backgrounds?
If its been the same people for nearly 1000 years id say thats pretty strong ethnicity
ohhhtee@reddit
no it has not been the same for 1000 years. literally just read about our history, please.
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
Look at the England National Team. So many players both white and non-white that have different family backgrounds
IToldYouIKnewHim@reddit
That's not how it works though. The English football team is only so diverse because there is no "British football team". Scotland and Wales have incredibly white, ethnically homogenous football teams. England doesn't because we have a huge immigrant population and they are legally allowed to compete to play in the team.
pencilrain99@reddit
I'm a Geordie
Comfortable_Row9530@reddit
Up th toon
Novel-Vacation-7362@reddit
bu ah
elf757@reddit
Here's what AI says: British refers to a nationality, which is a political and legal status tied to a sovereign state (the United Kingdom) and citizenship, rather than a race or a singular ethnicity.Ā While theĀ United KingdomĀ is a multicultural society with diverse ethnic groups, a person's nationality identifies their connection to the state.Ā
AskUK-ModTeam@reddit
AI generated comments are not allowed
QuietAnxiety@reddit
To be fair, you can "feel" whatever you like and even identify, the only thing that matters is the legal definition if you need any practical support based on waht it says on your passport.
Nzscorpion@reddit
No you cant lol, what sort of woke stuff is that. If im white I cant go around saying im a black african now can I.
Neilo_en_Fuego@reddit
Generally in regards to someones ethnicity it has nothing to do with someone's race. If you were living on the African continent, maybe born and raised there, or nationalised, or have citizenship, etc. Then, yes, you could define yourself as African. Of course you're not going to define yourself as a "Black" African if you're Caucasian or another race of people.
Carnivore180@reddit
I disagree. If you were born in Africa but your people are from Europe then that makes you European. Even Africans in African call white people who were born in Africa European even though they have been there for over 400 years.
Ambitious-Poet4992@reddit
Not all Africans do an again this was about race. The person said they canāt call themselves āblack Africanā and his right because he isnāt black. The proper name would be Caucasian African. Also many African think oppositely and are accepting to Africans with European ancestryĀ
Kooky-Amoeba-2095@reddit
Anyone can feel how they want but English isnāt an ethnicity the country of England has been full of different ethnicities since the Romans
domhnalldubh3pints@reddit
So list the ethnicities of the world then?
Which countries have not been invaded ?
Moroccan is not an ethnicity?
IToldYouIKnewHim@reddit
When a group of ethnicities come together and live homogenously for a few hundred years, that in itself becomes an ethnicity.
Anglo, celts, romans... They are the ethnic ancestors of the ethnic English people.
Pretty simple really
Carnivore180@reddit
When we speak of anĀ ethnic identity, we are referring to more than just nationality or citizenship. An ethnic group is typically defined by a shared set of genetic traits, a common ancestral history, cultural heritage, and a geographical region of origin. These elements collectively form a sense of belonging and identity that goes deeper than borders or passports.
As a British citizen, I personally would never describe myself asĀ Englishāeven though I would love to. But doing so would feel disingenuous. My ancestors were not rooted solely in England. They came from France, Germany, and the Netherlands. Yet, I wouldn't call myself French or German either, because I know my deeper ancestry lies further back, in Norse lineage. I have Viking bloodāthat is who I am, and that is where I come from.
This ancestry explains my blue eyes, my blonde hair, and my pale skin that struggles under the sun. Itās also why I naturally prefer cold climates. I feel at home when it rains. Thereās something in me that responds to the grey skies and chilly airāitās more than just preference; itās part of my heritage.
Federal-Condition964@reddit
The English defence league did a lot of damage to english pride
IntelligentSkill5503@reddit
They are trying to save their people. Stop trying to wipe them out. English is an ethnicity. It is highly disrespectful to say you can be English just because you were born there. Its like saying a white person can be Navajo. We are a people! If anyone can just be English, then we belong to no ethnic group. If I lived in Nigeria would I be Nigerian? And do you think the Chinese were always Chinese? No, they come from different tribes that united just like the English.
VerbingNoun413@reddit
!dick
Kooky-Amoeba-2095@reddit
Nah even without immigration actually born and bread english people are a mix of Celtic German and Scandinavian blood so itās not really an ethnicity,
To be English you just need to be born in England doesnāt matter who gives birth to you or where theyāre from
domhnalldubh3pints@reddit
This makes no logical sense at all
Every single ethnic group is a mix of peoples who preceded them
Immediate-Dare-7449@reddit
This guy is ignorant on culture and heritage born is not a way to go about
Downtown_Trash_6140@reddit
Germany wasnāt a country yet when the Angelos invaded England. How were they German??
Witch_of_Dunwich@reddit
I really doubt anyone in England is āEnglishā anymore, at least in relationship to ethnicity.
Weāve been invaded since the Roman Empire, and itās been a melting pot of cultures since then.
Iād say that culturally there is a stronger argument for being Welsh, Irish or Scottish than there is being English. Iād imagine with just how immigration works, youāre more likely to find ātrueā Welsh, Scottish and Irish folks in their respective parts of the Country.
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
This doesn't follow.
England has had different invasions throughout history but so HAS LITERALLY EVERYONE. You wouldn't say there was no such as Native Americans since they were made of three seperate migrations from Asia and then invaded eachother.
Arguably England has been less of a "melting pot" than Native Americans even prior to European arrival. You're just taught about it less.
There is an identifiable English ethnic group which even a commercial DNA test could detect.
Academic genetic studies can show there is an English ethnic group who largely descend from the Anglo-Saxons, Celtic Brits, and medieval French:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2
Why? England also has its own unique culture. It's just not celebrated as much.
domhnalldubh3pints@reddit
100%.
You're totally correct.
You're debating with pigeons and clowns tbh
Boardgamer421@reddit
Agreed, I had my DNA test done, and I came back 26% English so surely English is an ethnicity?
StudioSpeaker@reddit
About 800 years before England existed.
lonehorizons@reddit
Iām less embarrassed to be associated with the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish than I am with the English, so I usually say Iām British.
domhnalldubh3pints@reddit
But you're English
cuccir@reddit
The ideas of nationality and ethnicity are not fixed concepts. They are socially constructed, socially constructed in different ways by different groups, and change over time.
First, despite what you hear, there are plenty of Scottish, Welsh and (Northern) Irish people who identify, perhaps primarily, as 'British'. Approximately a third of people in both Wales and Scotland voted for the Conservative and Unionist party in 2019. A minority voted for the nationalist party in both (36.9% in Scot, 10% in Wales). Votes don't directly tell us about identity, but they tell us that these nations share at least some level of mixture in national identity to the same way that England does.
The concept of 'nation' is a vague one. It sometimes translates into 'state citizenship' (eg Britishness, Frenchness, Nicaraguaness etc) but certainly doesn't always. The UK is not as unique as we think we are in having sub-state nationalities, or national identities which challenge the state.
While ethnicity on the surface may seem more objective - it's to do with your genes, right? - in practice there's no fixed definition which makes up an ethnic group. How closely related do people have to be to fall into an ethnic group? How 'pure', for want of a better word, does someone's ethnicity have to be to fit into a group? You could describe an English ethnicity if you wanted, but the choice of how exclusionary you would be (a Scottish parent? A Greek grandmother? A Nigerian great-grandfather?) is arbitrary, and I'm not sure how useful the grouping would be - what would it help describe? There may be circumstances where the concept is helpful, but it would exist alongside British ethnicity, black anglo-Caribbean ethnicity, north-European ethnicity, anglo-saxon ethnicity, Celtic ethnicity, mixed-race anglo-indian ethnicity, and all other sorts of ethnicities with which English ethnicity would in various ways intersect and overlap.
domhnalldubh3pints@reddit
These no longer exist
saywherefore@reddit
As an English person living in Scotland I would say that when a lot of English people (probably including me previously) say they feel British, what they mean is that they assume that their identity is common across all of Britain, which really isn't valid.
Here's an interesting test for ethnicity: if you moved somewhere, and then raised children there, would those children be in any way distinct from their peers? For an English person in Scotland I think the answer is no.
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
England as a whole has been evaded by people of different backgrounds that you really can't call English only a ethnic group now
saywherefore@reddit
The same is pretty true of Scotland, Wales etc, and yet the consensus seems to be that those can be distinct ethnic groups.
Kooky-Amoeba-2095@reddit
But theyāre not, Scotland has a mix of Celtic Anglo and Scandinavian blood just like England itās not itās own ethnicity
domhnalldubh3pints@reddit
Scotland is an ethnicity, just like Welsh Irish and English
saywherefore@reddit
Ethnicity is not purely a question of ancestry or DNA.
Nzscorpion@reddit
No also cultural stuff an language, race was pretty much DNA but most people stopped using that term to identify humans.
Kooky-Amoeba-2095@reddit
Explain?
domhnalldubh3pints@reddit
Your children would probably not speak either the lowland Scots language or the Gaelic language or the English language with a heavy accent influenced by either of these languages because the language of the home would be their parents (two English people speaking English with English accents).
You children would also not have the depth of exposure to Scotland's different localised cultures and localised identities that a child with local parents would have.
Your family simply would not have the roots that a child with local parents would
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
If someone was brought up on English culture, they are English in my eyes.
You can be ethnically English or have English as a Nationality. So basically, one can be both, one of the other or none at all
saywherefore@reddit
I'm arguing for distinct English cultural/national identity, but against distinct English ethnicity (at least within Britain).
terryjuicelawson@reddit
Nationality and race is all a human construct, it has little to no basis in science. So people can define themselves how they want.
Kooky-Amoeba-2095@reddit
The numbers 1 and 2 are just human constructs but when you see 2 chairs you see 2 chairs
maskedwithaface@reddit
Well, they both have deeply ingrained real world implications so dismissing them as "just" a human construct as if that means nothing is pretty odd to do.
Kudos to you if you don't find any meaning to them but that sounds like it comes from a place of privilege as for a lot of people, especially immigrants, it can mean a lot.
Boardgamer421@reddit
I'm mixed race, so technically I do have English blood in me. However I would never call myself English, I see myself as British. I have never met a person of colour who calls themselves English, and I'd never refer to a person of colour as English.
Scotland, Ireland and Wales have always been different, even in their census, there is an option for ethnic minority's to identify as Irish, Welsh and Scottish - you won't get that option in England's census, it's just a cultural difference.
velos85@reddit
Depends what options are on the form I'm filling in.
AncestralSeeker@reddit
One thing you have to remember when talking about why English people might not identify with being English in the āloud and proudā way Welsh, Scottish and Irish people do is because of the huge difference in population and the regionalism that comes with that. Wales, Scotland and Ireland all have tiny populations which fosters close-knit cultural ties and pride. Englandās population is absolutely enormous in comparison so you instead find people strongly and proudly identifying with their specific region or city, such as being a Londoner, Cockney, Cornish, Devonian, West Country person, East Anglian, Southerner, Midlander, Brummie, Northerner, Scouse, Manc, Geordie, Yorkshireman etc. The smaller regional identities take over
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
English can be an identity, a place you're living and a nationality. If you live in England you're English and British.
That said English is also an ethnic group. There are are ancestrally & culturally defined indigenous English group who descend from the historic inhabitants of this land. Just like any other place in the world.
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
I am not too sure about living. If they lived in England for a while, then they are a citizen. But if they were born and raised in England, no matter the ancestral roots, they are English by Nationality. Hence you would be English of a certain descent.
My point is English isn't only tied to ethnicity, it also relates to culture and Nationality.
MercatorLondon@reddit
Nationality can be complex. If you were born in Yorkshire but moved to London would you call yourself a Londoner?
I think to call yourself English you need to be born in England or have a link via at least one parent who is English.
In any case you can cover yourself in very cozy British blanket and cherish it! And you would be not wrong.
Some people from Europe prefer to call themselves as Europeans rather than some small country they are from.
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
Definitely. Not only born but raised there I feel. If you are brought up on English culture or one of or both parents have the ethnic roots, you are English. My point is if you tie English to only ethnicity, you are leaving certain aspects. It really doesn't do the definition justice š.
Depends really if that person was born and raised in Yorkshire before moving to London , then of course he/she is from Yorkshire.
If he/she was born in Yorkshire lets say for a few days or a month then moves to London, then of course they are Londoners.
Sufficient_Pin_9595@reddit
Having just spent ten years in Wales, the saying is āif you feel Welsh, you are Welshā. Iāll take that.
LanguageDapper2032@reddit
It's a nationality with the UK i suppose but It's not an ethnic group, English people are not an ethnic group, i'm english but my parents aren't.
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
English is an ethnic group. Why wouldn't it be?
LanguageDapper2032@reddit
Becauase there is no such thing as an "ethnic english" person.
an English person can have ancestry anywhere in the world. even "white English" people have lots of ancestry elsewhere.
thats why.
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
By this logic there are no ethnic groups anywhere on earth and haven't been any ethnic groups since 70,000 years ago.
There is an ancestrally defined indigenous English ethnic group - those inhabitants who mainly descend from the Anglo-Saxons and Celtic Brits.
Valuable-Wallaby-167@reddit
The majority of Wales and Scotland also descend from anglo-saxons & Celtic Brits. So how can you say there is an English ethic group when it's impossible to tell which country in Britain someone is from based on their ancestry?
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
Well Wales and Scotland have a different ethnogenesis & different proportions & types of that ancestry. Eg Wales is more traditionally Celtic and have a split as a historical boundary. We can actually tell the different proportions of ancestry even to regional places within England - eg see studies like this: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2
Thus we'd split the Welsh, Scots and English into three seperate ethnic groups. The difference is enough that even a commercial DNA test can largely conclude what areas of Britain you are from.
So yes we can actually split who is English and Welsh based off a DNA test.
That said yes boundaries can be flawed. A Western English person from say Herefordshire couldn't necessarily be distinguished as either Welsh or English. But that's the same everywhere. There's no immediate split between different Native American tribes. Or between Native Americans and some of the Inuits to the North or central American natives. Doesn't mean those don't exist. We just sometimes draw reasonable lines, again based off ethnogenesis and the best of our DNA analysis.
Valuable-Wallaby-167@reddit
On an individual level we can't split it. Average proportions does not mean individuals within that country all have the same proportions.
The study showing different regional variations argues against your point. You can't ignore the fact that England has regional genetic variation and claim it's all one ethnicity while at the same time claiming that the variations between the different countries makes them different ethnicities.
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
The simple answer to this is you could say this endlessly and we choose to draw boundaries, again based off historical ethnogenesis.
The English are considered one group rather than many ethnic groups because of the Anglo-Saxon ethnogenesis to bring us together.
Of course local areas have regional variation.
Again you could say this endlessly. By your standards you could say Native Americans, Maori, Sami, Inuits, Amazonian tribes etc aren't ethnic groups or collections of ethnic groups. But no one does that.
You could continue to draw the line as broad or as small as you like. I could draw my area of England - East Anglia as its own ethnic group by your standards. But I get the impression you'd hate the idea of having even more exclusive ethnic groups.
Nothing you're saying really questions what I'm saying. You're just engaging in deconstructionism which, again could be applied continuously to every ethnic group on earth.
Valuable-Wallaby-167@reddit
Most of those groups are more genetically distinct from their neighbours than the English are so you're comparing apples to oranges. Generally those groups are defined specifically as being genetically different from people of white European heritage, and much of why they're treated as quite tightly defined groups is to do with mistreatment and segregation, they're also defined by culture not just by ethnicity. You're conveniently ignoring a great deal of history to try and make your point.
Yes... it's almost like drawing ethnic lines on the map and making overarching statements about ethnicity isn't actually helpful, isn't it?
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
No they're not. The boundaries are just as grey. It is incredibly difficult, sometimes even impossible, to distinguish between two Native American tribes.
And again North American Native Americans can't always be easily distinguished between other natives to the far north or south.
You're trying to make some epic point about how Britain is the only people in the world without native ethnic groups and failing miserably.
If this discussion is going to go on further you need to define your terms as to who is an ethnic group and who isn't and why the English don't apply for this. You haven't done this.
Incorrect. Everywhere in the world has established native ethnic groups and no one really denies this.
What you're talking is indigenous status (but not even colloquially indigenous).
For example a logger of indigenous descent would not be afforded the same land rights as the tribes his work displaces. However he would still be considered of indigenous descent.
Furthermore why couldn't the English have this? We have now had decades of mass immigration. You could easily identify us as the native white inhabitants in contrast to the mass of different ethnicities arrived in the last few decades.
Incorrect. Ethnic groups are easily identified all over the world. And it's a useful and beautiful category.
You're just being racist and evoking genocidal rhetoric against the English
Valuable-Wallaby-167@reddit
Firstly, I am English, I'm even English by your exclusionary standards. So stop with your bollocks hyperbolic claims of genocide. That would be gross wherever I was from.
Secondly, refusing to acknowledge people as English if they don't have what you consider the correct DNA is what's racist.
LanguageDapper2032@reddit
"Anglo-Saxons and Celtic Brits" by that definition lots of english people including white english people aren't english by that logic.
ethnic nationalism is stupid.
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
That doesn't make any sense. The Anglo-Saxons and Celtic Brits were the historic peoples who formed the English ethnic group.
That's like saying a cake isn't cake because it includes flour and sugar. No, floor and sugar are core ingredients of a cake.
Native Americans were made up of three main migrations our of Asia (and then moved around massively within America - more distance than Northern Europeans moved around). Yet you wouldn't therefore say Native Americans aren't real because you understand those three historic waves of migrations are what formed the modern ethnic Native American ethnicities as we know them.
LanguageDapper2032@reddit
There is no ethnic english people in the same way there is no ethnic american.
English is a nationality not a "race" "ethnic group"
There are loads of English people of Irish, Scottish, Welsh, French, Southern Europe, Eastern Europe, South Asian, MENA, Sub saharan African, Caribbean origin. Those people are just as English as anyone else.
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
So you believe Native Americans don't exist? That's sounds incredibly racist.
You haven't given a counter argument to my response. How isn't there and ethnic English group?
You can say they're English as in nationality and that they live and should be accepted here.
But that doesn't change the fact there is also an ancestral native English ethnic group.
LanguageDapper2032@reddit
Of course Native Americans exist, where did I say they didn't?
I said Americans like English people can come from any background on earth.
It's also stupid to compare native Americans, who were close to being wiped out and treated appallingly, to so called "Ethnic English" who weren't and did the complete opposite of what native Americans i.e oppress and commit genocide on people.
King_of_East_Anglia@reddit
You said "in the same way there is no ethnic american". There are ethnic Americans - the indigenous inhabitants we call the Native Americans.
Anyone can be American.
But this doesn't change the fact there is an indigenous population - the various Native American tribes.
Same in England. People can come here and live here and be English in terms of nationality. But that doesn't change the fact there is an ancestrally defined indigenous English ethnic group.
And they should be formally recongised imo.
Who's comparing them in this sense? What does this even mean and how is it relevant to the discussion?
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
Of course English is an ethnic background but it is also linked to culture and Nationality I feel.
England literally has been evaded over years with people with different backgrounds that you really can't tie it to ethnicity only.
If we go by that logic then , The England National Team hardly has any English person in the team then
thesteelmaker@reddit
We are not allowed to be proud of being English.
StudioSpeaker@reddit
Gonna take a wild guess you're one of the reasons we're ashamed to be British.
cgknight1@reddit
You get arrested just for saying you are English?
Working-Oil6059@reddit
Anyone who lives in the U.K is a British citizen and therefore are British. English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish are ethnicities.
Someone from America wouldn't call themselves a Navaho just because they live in Arizona, just as someone from the E.U, Africa, Asia, etc shouldn't call themselves English just because they live in England. That is what is known as cultural appropriation.
AerodynamicHandshake@reddit
Other way around, surely?
I'd never say I'm British.
saywherefore@reddit
Lots of English people say that they identify as British, indeed a couple in this post have done so. In my opinion their actual identity is English, they just assume that identity is shared across Britain.
AerodynamicHandshake@reddit
Yeah, not what I expected to be honest. Especially since a lot of the reasoning is the flipside of why I wouldn't say British.
But I've always seen it as English first, then British, then European, but it's English first. Sport probably plays a part in that, to be fair.
imminentmailing463@reddit
I always say I'm British. I am English, but it's not an identity that really sits comfortably with me. British feels a more civic, liberal identity, more in line with how I feel.
Dami0904@reddit (OP)
I got you man. But some attribute English to skin colour, which is wrong
It is about being brought up on English culture like accent and surroundings etc . I feel its a cultural trait as well
caiaphas8@reddit
I never say Iām English. I feel like England is a foreign concept to me, I am British. Born and raised in Yorkshire, as were my parents and grandparents etc
JBEqualizer@reddit
Why do you keep asking this question every month?
cgknight1@reddit
You need to get mental health treatment - this obsessional single issue posting over months is generally not a good sign.
HistorikalGroov@reddit
Oh God it's this guy again. I didn't notice because he didn't bring up his Nigerian heritage, but a glance at his profile tells me all I need to know.
Yeah, OP clearly has something very wrong with him.
imminentmailing463@reddit
Yeah, this guy clearly has a real issue with British identity, an issue that they're never going to solve by repeatedly asking people about it on Reddit.
BillyShannon82@reddit
I identify as British over English but I think that would be down to me having a Scottish mother more than anything. I feel roots and heritage to both England and Scotland.
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