"Lifetime fluid" or similar translates into "the life of the manufacturer's powertrain warranty" which is generally 3y/36k. Past that, you're on your own.
I mean a Bronco Sport is a 3cyl little turbo engine. It's running hard just going to get groceries. My bet would be that the car says you're overheating and goes into limp mode *before* overheating. It, and many other cars, are over-nannied to the point of becoming unusable and preventing people from doing something "bad" vs. giving people information and letting them make sound operating judgements.
99% of people buying a car in 2024 down want to think about the car being a machine at all. It's just an appliance that gets them from one place to another.
> My bet would be that the car says you’re overheating and goes into limp mode well before overheating. It, and many other cars, are over-nannied to the point of becoming unusable to prevent people from doing something “bad” vs. giving people information and letting them make sound operating judgements.
And from Ford’s perspective, it’s probably a big win that it limped for a bit, then fired up again with zero actual damage. Versus taking the reputation hit for reliability after a couple of morons decided to push their luck by just ‘slightly’ overheating it on the regular.
Honestly I'm not sure about that. My parents have the 2.0T actually, so it's not too overworked. Definitely more power than my little TJ. I was watching the coolant temp on my OBD scanner and the gauge doesn't move past the middle mark until coolant temp is over 235. That seems pretty damn hot for an aluminum block and head. So it almost seems like it doesn't go into limp mode till it's too late.
I don't know what Ford considers overheating though, but I'm sure at over 250 that motor would be cooked.
Most manufacturers do this "hack" with gauges.... Because people are stupid.
I know some Porsche engineer in some interview or magazine admitted they do the same thing because if the needle showed fifteen degrees above the middle, well within range, they'd have customers bringing them in and claiming lemon and other nonsense
Good point on the nannying. I’m sure the Sport is cutting power well before there’s a remote danger of overheating harm, as opposed to being that much worse engineered
In unrelated news, I have a friend with a '23 hybrid and he absolutely loves that thing. In my opinion, it's better built and significantly more refined than e.g. an old nissan hardbody or chevy s10.
IMO modern cars in general are engineered better than cars of old. A TJ sport with the i6 came in at like 38k adjusted for inflation - it's a bit pricier than the bronco sport and not a totally fair comparison IMO.
Wow. I bought mine used with 110k miles lmao, I had no idea they were that expensive new. Would that have really translated into quality though? All I hear these days is how Wranglers and FCA products are overpriced junk.
I mean quality isn't that bad as long as you understand what you're paying for - you're paying for the looks and capability, doors that come off, live axles, etc.
The JL and TJ both made compromises to achieve that. The JL (current gen) is still significantly more comfortable than the TJ, even the JK is a big upgrade. It's really night and day - to the point where I wouldn't even consider a TJ as a daily. I really recommend you try one out.
But the thing is people get in IFS unibody SUVs and then try a JL and get shocked it drives like shit. It's still a jeep. It's no luxury SUV yet just as pricey. But its still significantly nicer than the jeeps of old!
Oh yeah, JLs drive a lot nicer than TJs. I've driven a few and I've driven a few JKs too. I bought the TJ just because I felt like I'd have an easier time keeping it beyond 200k miles and because I liked the smaller size better. The newer Jeeps are definitely better daily drivers though.
Also a little too much technology for me for now, I like the bare bones nature of the TJ. Maybe at some point in the future I'll have a JL :)
That too, the TJ makes me smile when I drive it. On paper it drives horribly but it's just so charming and fun to me compared to the JLs. I somehow feel safe in it even though it's far from that compared to a modern vehicle.
Because there's nothing better for the money and the capability. So while it has its issues, it's still probably the best option for me, especially given I got first year pricing and paid 0% to finance it.
I've actually enjoyed quite a bit of what it has to offer, even though I'll be honest this sub hasn't seen much of it.
For anyone that hasn't blocked me yet:
1. The AWD is fantastic. Ford doesn't get enough credit here at all.
2. It really has a unique place in the market. Capability of a truck on a car platform. Rides nice.
3. The 4.5 foot bed is quite useful. I've had bikes, camping gear, wood, groceries in the back... The flexibility of 4 doors and a bed is amazing.
4. The 2025 refresh is offering exactly what people wanted back in 2021: hybrid AWD. 40 mpg or so combined for something with a truck bed with 1300-1500 pound payload is amazing.
And thats precisely why its worse inside than the '02 accord - that car does not have the awd, payload, tow, mileage of the maverick. Neither does a modern accord, apart from the mileage. I don't think it's fair to compare a utilitarian vehicle with a slightly upmarket midsize sedan.
The new accord is significantly nicer inside, much quieter, quicker, and more efficient than the '02. So is a new civic.
As a bean counter at an OEM w a few years in product development, this is partially true, but its more complicated than face value suggests. A big part of the problem is that more and more money is being spent on powertrains, which your average consumer doesn't give a shit about. Spend an extra $1k on a turbo 4 to replace a V6, then there needs to be an offset. Same goes for safety standards (small overlap, auto braking, etc.). There are a lot of regulatory related costs that the customers don't see face value in. Chassis isn't exactly an easy place to cut, nor is the exterior given you're also funneling money into lighting technology because that now gets into your safety rating. Electrical system is likewise ever more complicated. That leaves your interior. Personally, I've fought losing battles here with the opinion that $100 of company cost per unit spent on interior quality will likely pay back (especially if your a laggard in the segment), but people with bigger salaries and more experience think differently.
What's worse, is that a lot of these powertrains underperform in real world MPG because its so hard to stay out of the turbo when they put a turbo 4 in a 4300 pound car. Especially climbing up a mountain like OP was.
My hot take is that we (consumers and OEMs) would be much better off with a higher percentage of naturally aspirated engines, maybe pairing with hybrid technology over time.
Right but if they built C2 around a V6 (which AFAIK Ford only has the 3.5 in), whether the cost, fuel economy, power, and NVH targets could be the same
Ford also has the 3.3 NA and 2.7 turbo V6s. Though I think only the hybrid Explorer uses the first one anymore. Come to think of it, only their RWD vehicles use V6s now.
The Fusion Sport/Mondeo is C2 and has the 2.7 so it could theoretically be done
My bet is planners said make ‘x’ interior side under 182 inches on the Escape. Powertrain team has less space, a fuel economy, and low end torque target that makes the turbo the only option
Yeah C2 can't accomodate a V6, but it was also a Euro led platform. But I suspect a V6 would be better on NVH, probably better than the 1.5L Turbo but equal to the 2.0L Turbo in high bronco sport trims. Cost would be lower, reliability probably better. EPA MPG lower, but real world probably not far off in some cases. Might lose some low end torque relative to the 2.0T. This is all assuming a NA 3.5 V6 which I don't think Ford offers anymore. Though Honda does offer one in the passport still and it comes in at 270HP.
Bean counters have been in control of auto manufacturing from the very beginning of Ford. From the Model T to the Pinto, it was always about maximizing profit while making a product that is still acceptable to the general public.
I went from a 1998 Ford Escort to a 2008 Nissan Sentra to a 2015 Subaru Forester.
The Escort died at 100k miles because the head gasket blew and had a bunch of rust. The Sentra died because I hit too many potholes and it basically was falling apart (yeah the roads might be to blame there). The Forester is at 150k miles and I haven't had to replace any major component.
Idk about 2025 vehicles but it seems like this question is extremely complicated and depends on the specific vehicle you buy in the specific environment you live in.
2022 Maverick was designed to be sold at $20k starting, that's hardly $12k in 2002 dollars. The 2002 Accord was $20k starting, that's over $32k in 2022 dollars, or $35k in today's dollars.
Maverick is an unashamed budget vehicle, it's a shame pricing didn't stay that way
The Mav does use a lot of plastic and I have an occasional rattle pop up depending on outside temp. However, the engine/driveline is pretty solid and proven over the years. I've done some minor mods myself on mine (new grille for example, which required removing the bumper), and it wasn't any worse than cars I've worked on in the past (caveat that I obviously haven't owned high end cars) as far as build quality goes. Not the best by any means, but acceptable for what you pay.
Your Maverick is also significantly more complex than your 2002 Accord was.
Agree on the drivetrain options.
It's pretty wild just how much more complex it is than my 20 year old sedan:
1. AWD
2. Turbocharged
3. Significantly safer
4. Significantly more tech
5. Wild level of sensors
While this could be true for the Maverick, this is not a general rule.
NC miata has some interior parts that would put TEMU to shame :D. However the actual moving parts such as suspension, are very good.
It's got the same 2.3 Ecoboost they've been putting in a half dozen vehicles for years and doesn't it have the 10R60 transmission? That Ford puts in *everything*? Is got to be a pretty solved problem by now, right?
Oh, so it's got a *different* engine and transmission that have been in about a half dozen models for nearly a decade. I'm that case, it still seems like a solved problem.
True. Funny enough, though, the stuff I can't see is what I'm least worried about given it's on the Ford C2 platform. That itself has had more time to bake. The interior fit and finish...not so much. It's just bad.
I've had one come into the shop for a noise concern, and the plastic under the center console was splitting, causing a tapping on a computer under it (I think it was the RCM, don't quote me on that though). It took 3 techs to find it, and I had to twist the arm of warranty to pay me for removal of the center console.
As far as I can tell, the engine and transmission are solid enough for the area I'm in, so it's mostly just trim concerns. I plan to buy one if my Toyota dies or I get a nice extra bit of cash as I don't really need a truck of its size.
Good on you for doing right by the customer. That's awesome.
I had a tapping big ass harness connector on the left side of the front passenger seat footwell. Plastic connector just left against the metal. 😂
I also have a dash rattle which Ford has a TSB for. And it's only for 2WD vehicles, NOT those who are AWD, so I'm not covered. 😂
It seems like you are well read on matters surrounding your truck, so I might be repeating something you already know about, but check the top of the dash near the passenger air bag. I've seen that there is a gap large enough to flex between the side of the airbag and the dash (probably don't need to say this but don't put anything on top of the bag). You could try some padding around the "cage" it sits in, as I've seen that do it before.
I try to do my best for my customers, despite the reputation dealer techs get. I'm fortunate enough that management actually cares and invests in the business and staff, so it created a unique culture. We are some of the best educated Ford techs in the area, management has sent me to get every certification from the Ford corporate training center, with no questions asked. I'm currently missing only the automatic transmission certification and the EV battery certification. We have been located in the same place since the 1960s, so that helps with the customer base. I back our shop as I've seen first hand that cutting corners gets you fired quick.
I know I've said enough on reddit about us to doxx myself so if Tim or Ernie is reading this hi.
DO NOT overheat that inline 6 jeep! They are awesome. They don’t respond well to overheating though. That jeep has a larger engine than the ford, as well as a shit ton more torque. It isn’t working as hard under a load as the ford.
I love mine, not super strong (only 190 hp for 4 liters) but good enough especially because my Wrangler is stock. Very torquey though and easy to drive.
Also what mountain pass? I lived and worked in Eagle County for a bit and also spent most summers in Colorado. Name an average vehicle, and I've seen it smoking or stalled. Especially on Vail Pass- i burned a quart of oil over four trips in my used subaru, stopped at a mechanics, he just said "yeah, welcome to the rockies". Damn great place to have a recovery business lol
Highway 87 heading up to Payson in AZ. I see a lot of overheated cars on this highway especially in the summer. Took out my friend's CRV too and had to drive up there go to help him out lmao
Makes sense. Doesn't arizona get to 100F frequently?
Honestly for everyday commuter cars, those are tough roads to take them. I'm still surprised my halfrotted '13 with a flat four managed a whole year of vail.
It still sucks that it happened, and imo it shouldn't happen with how expensive these cars are and how much tech they have, though
Oh it gets over that. This past summer, it was 115 or so going up those inclines. In my Wrangler, I was flat to the floor in fourth gear holding 80-85 mph with the AC maxed out, with it nearly 120 outside. Coolant temps didn't go above 225. If my primitive, almost twenty year old Wrangler can do it every year with no problems, I don't know why the high tech Bronco Sport has such a hard time.
I know I'm giving my old Jeep a hard time on these inclines and probably shouldn't be wide open throttle with the AC on when it's that hot outside but I know it can handle it without overheating, and the TJ generation is known to have a undersized cooling system. Ford has no excuse for this.
I know i'm from upstate NY but I still feel like 120F is nuts. I think the Bronco Sport would be better compared to a subaru forester than to a jeep, but yeah if most cars can do that, that is a bit of a Ford Fuckup.
I honestly like the Bronco Sports looks, but I haven't heard much good about it. I hope the Ranger is alright as i've been saving up for two years for one lmao
Yup, originally from California and the temps ARE nuts. But oh well, just for a couple months out of the year. Wonder if we are reaching the design limitations of the cooling systems with these temps.
Honestly, I think the Bronco Sport is fine as long as you don’t push it to the limit. Other than that one overheating incident it has been trouble free. That being said it has 40k miles on it whereas my Jeep has 180k so… I will say though it’s quite impressive offroad for what it is, and you’re right in that it competes more with your Subaru. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the Badlands version can go pretty much anywhere my Wrangler can but just at a slower pace.
The Ranger should be alright though, those drivetrains have been around for a while and I haven’t heard anything too bad about them.
Yes, the Bronco Sport has the 2.0T and feels like a rocket compared to my TJ on the highway. In the city I actually like the way the 4.0 delivers power better, because I still feel like you have to rev the Bronco Sport out a good amount to get decent power even from the 2.0T. The AMC motor is a little more effortless but also mine is a manual so I'm sure that makes a difference when it comes to perception.
The AMC engine does feel like it makes torque a little lower in the powerband though. So my preference for rock crawling and city driving: AMC 4.0 and highway/ other daily driving: Bronco Sport 4 cyl
Also the 0-60 time difference is not as much as one would expect. Bone stock with a manual the TJ does it in a little under 8 seconds MAYBE 7.5, the Bronco Sport is 5.9 seconds. It's 80+ mph where you can really feel the difference.
I've had both. The peak tq might be lower in RPM band on the 4.0, but not by much. So it MIGHT be better for rock crawling/trail driving slowly but otherwise the 2.0t would smoke it in every other scenario.
Isn't that overheating related issue specific to the 00-01 models though? Unfortunately I possess one from the year, but luckily the few times I did overheat it didn't crack the head.
The head was different in the later ones. They are all over 20 years old now too. A failure in cooling system can cause overheating. I would do my best to avoid overheating any 4.0
Chrysler reworked the AMC head and made it prone to cracking. This only affected the 00-01 models though, as 02 and up got the all new “TUPY” design.
Other than those two years the 4.0 is not especially prone to damage from overheating as it’s all cast iron.
The logic on the forums was that all of the heads that were going to crack have already done it by now, and that most 00/01 4.0s are safe enough.
Still, I’d feel better with a TUPY head.
I've had mine since 2016, and I've overheated 3 or 4 times without issue, but I never did check to see if the head had been upgraded. The previous owner didn't mention anything iirc.
Yes, they're being engineered with less headroom than before.
There are a lot of competing requirements for modern vehicles.
Safety requirements (weight, size due to crumple zones, electro-mechanical+software complexity).
Comfort and infotainment. What's the last car you saw advertised without AC or an Automatic transmission and an onboard computer that puts the chips NASA uses to fly to Mars to shame?
Emissions requirements leading to direct and then dual (PDFI) injection. Lower displacement engines running turbos (the likely culprit for OP's overheating) at higher pressures. Hot temps with consistent high power demand is a recipe for detonation and the new engines have plenty of monitors to pull timing & boost & take other steps to prevent engine damage (aka limp mode). They've got to manage all this heat output while still making the car as aerodynamic as possible (for fuel economy)...and a big finned radiator is a huge source of drag.
Trying to incorporate all these additional systems without blowing the financial or mass budget means engineers have to design closer to material tolerances.
Planned obsolescence, and the enshittification (basically in pursuit of profits, your product suffers so much you lose your customer base, real word now btw) of anything headed to mass market consumers.
The market is really open for companies that value reliability over touchscreens and ui, quality parts instead of marketing campaigns. I'd love to see something like small auto manufacturers popping up, because the trust between consumers and big auto execs is pretty much gone.
I have a counterpoint to your anecdote: I have a 2001 Jeep XJ, with the same AMC inline 6, and it likes to overheat on mountain passes. It even has an upgraded radiator. Meanwhile I've *never* had a <20 year old car overheat on me, and I've driven a variety of different models in varying conditions.
As far as "I can't see a way much overhead can be engineered into modern engines", look at VW's four cylinders. The EA888 can go 60-70 HP *reliably* above stock. So can their TDIs, I've been running mine with 70 extra HP (140 -> 210) for over a year with zero issues, and flogging it. Another good example is BMW's B58.
I think the bigger factor is each specific manufacturer. Some overbuild their engines/components and some don't (cough cough Fix Or Repair Daily).
Also, as cars get older, institutional knowledge builds up and people learn more about how to keep their cars running into high mileage. For example, my TDI has aftermarket parts available that fix one of its major flaws (CP4 blowing up), parts that didn't exist 10 years ago when the car was new. There's also alternative turbos available now for my wagon that didn't even exist when the car was new, using new technologies for less lag. This can shift perceived reliability.
Yeah B58 came to mind as I was writing this. I think that's more of an exception though? I recently watched a teardown on the new 1.5L Hondas compared to a K series I think and it was clear that there's no way the 1.5 can handle the same amount of power and boost as the K series motors could.
As for the XJ, aren't they known to have an undersized cooling system? I believe the TJs are too, but I haven't had issues with mine. Maybe I'll find it undersized if I ever tried towing uphill.
You may be naturally biased but I think they are legitmately both good engines, and I’m saying that having never owned either. Never heard any issues from people that have a vehicle with a B58 or a B48. Bmw did a great job. I used to have an 05 Mini Cooper S and it was extremely unreliable. Seeing the new ones are actually built well (even tho I miss my little supercharged go kart) makes me happy :)
Having previously worked at a BMW and MINI dealer, it was pretty staggering the improvement in reliability between the R56-generation models, which were total pieces of shit, and the F56-gen with the B38 (Cooper) and B48 (Cooper S and JCW). The passenger engine mounts are the one problem I’ve both seen and dealt with in my own Gen3, and it’s just down to a poor design really. The part is actually pretty cheap, it’s just a PITA to get to it. Small engine bay and whatnot. They’re otherwise little tanks of cars these days.
yea those Rxx minis def had their reliability issues, esp the n14 engines.
the new Minis are actually very reliable now that bmw finally uses the b48. i think they use the b38 in the 3 cylinder variants.
however i also miss my weird 2013 R58 coupe, had to get a countryman to fit my mom (older) so i figured id get the funnest one (JCW)
This Honda swap expert is pretty stoked on the J-Series future, highlighting several things it does better than the K.
https://youtu.be/B81ZC8p2giM?si=3_9Sv5yco-Y1wtX1
This is way out there and I don’t know how true this is, but if I had to make a guess it would be the addition of the pre-cats to be emissions compliant in the late model years. From what I understand, those models run a little hotter.
The engine family the 4.0 comes from dates back to the AMC days when they owned Jeep, all the way from the 1960s. By the time the 2000s rolled around, some of the tooling for some of the parts still dated back to that time and were worn out and no longer as in spec when they were new.
I don't know how true these claims are, but I've seen some Jeep fanatics and owners say the issues facing newer 4.0s are from the worn out tooling producing parts no longer in spec, so fluids like coolant no longer are sealed properly, etc.
back in the day they made things because 'that's how you do it' and 90% of the time is was overbuilt
now, it's 'minimum spec' and since they don't equate real world scenarios(100 degree day, sitting in the drivethrough for 30 minutes with the a/c on wide open with no airflow), it usually ends badly for the owner
(80s and) 90s cars are considered the "high point" of daily-driver-cars for a reason. You have pretty much all the modern "feels" and capabilities, but computerization (and general complexity) is lower so the cars are easier to keep alive (especially) after OEM-support is reduced/stopped. You need non-public tools/software a lot less.
An Mk4 golf is 25 years old, but you get modern comfort, good safety with front and side airbags, ABS, (optional) traction control, A/C, electric...pretty much everything, and even carplay/AndroidAuto is just a matter of pulling the stock radio (which is not a fully integrated "infotainment" yet but a DIN-Slot unit) and sliding in an aftermarket unit.
Do you not remember what a piece of garbage the Mark IV was?
All these 20 year olds with survivorship bias in their view of 2000s cars. There were tons of warning lights and mechanical and electrical failures back then.
The Mk4 was still quite alright, the real downhill part came afterwards. And as I said, 80s/90s is a compromise, older ones are less problematic/easier to keep alive, but the Mk4 (and Mk3, a bit less) has the modern feel/amenities (/look).
Actual old cars, like your Miata, have hardly any fault codes and don’t self diagnose very well, especially things like the complicated idle systems on old cars without drive by wire. So you need to hope there is a code for your problem, or play the guessing game. And then you need to jumper some dumb connector and count blinking lights on most of them. And you can’t read coolant temperature etc without some ancient specialized scan tool That’s likely no longer available.
>Actual old cars, like your Miata, have hardly any fault codes
The advatange is that most of the stuff is very straightforward. Wire from A to B, color coded, etc. In fact the one thing I had to spend a bit of time on fixing was the one thing that throws error codes (Airbag system), everything else is just either mechanical or very basic electronics.
Also a Miata/MX5 isn't old, it's from the 1990s not the 1930s.
I'm an engineer who was working in automotive until I got fed up with it. You are correct. The bean counters tell us to hit a margin, and with advancements in design technology, we can more reliably hit that margin.
Ford never recovered from the recession. They fired most of the old heads and replaced them with people with no experience who taught themselves bad habits. It's not the same company anymore, and they clearly have no idea how or the desire to fix it. Don't buy a fuckin Ford
I noticed that newer cars will regulate a little better. Had a 70s AMC 401 V8 overheating on mountain passes. Turns out it was just overheating beyond what I was comfortable with, and my friends Pentastar all aluminum V6 was running like 260 while I was at 220f.
I think the newer cars will be more comfortable holding it at a higher temp, but they just reach a tipping point and its over very fast at that point.
check the fan, I'm a mechanic and the number 1 reason new vehicles overheat is the fan.
check to see if the fan is on and engaging high speed as well.
one of the main issues of modern vehicles is shitty assembly of electronics
Yeah fan was fine, so I don't know. It seems to be fine as long as it's normal driving but under load, like travelling uphill watching the OBD scanner I could see it getting into the 230+ range.
Fan, air pocket not burped out correctly from factory/fluid change, bad thermostat, or not building pressure correct on the weird reservoir tank with capless design.
I don't know the bronco sport engine design either, but ls1 variants often don't turn on fans until near that temp too.
Turbo cars have terrible heat management compared to an equivalently powered naturally aspirated motor.
You can “fake” high MPGs by keeping turbo motors out of boost.
So now we’re stuck with turbo 4s in everything where a 6 would actually be better.
Disclosure up front, IANAE. However, I have a two part response that makes up my personal belief in response to your question.
For the first part, in the specific example you provided:
The Bronco Sport comes equipped with either a turbocharged 3 or 4 cylinder.
Why do I bring this up?
Efficiency. In the pursuit of fuel efficiency, yes - a lot of manufacturers are introducing more and more turbocharged engine options. Even ones that never have previously gone that route in that market segment.
See a few examples below:
Toyota with their Tundra, Tacoma, 4Runner. Never previously turbo'ed until this generation. I'll concede they did have a turbo 4-pot pickup back in the day (Marty McFly's truck, anyone?)- but that was a premium option, and it was low-boost on an over-engineered powerplant vs. being a standard engine for every one of those vehicles coming out of factories today.
Chevrolet/GMC with their turbo 4 banger as an option in their 1500 series truck lineup.
Honda switching to primarily turbocharged engines as standard within the past few generations.
Ford introducing the EcoBoost engine over a decade ago that is now in some varying configuration under that branding available damn near - if not outright - across their entire lineup.
Stellantis killing their HEMI lineup in favor of the new inline 6 twin turbo, or putting turbo 4 pots from Alfa Romeo in a Jeep Wrangler
The list could probably go on.
Now, why is this an issue?
Most people don't like slow cars. Sure, some could care less as long as it gets them from A to B. And while another portion of drivers don't necessarily want *race car* performance, they still want the damn thing to move when they stab the skinny pedal. Arguments can even be made that under certain circumstances, a vehicle being able to accelerate quickly in an emergency could actually *improve* safety in those specific scenarios.
How do we do that? More power. Currently, auto manufacturers are trying to balance having engines that make this kind of power, while still meeting fuel efficiency and emissions regulations. And they're trying to do that to a price point that's mostly digestible to the consumer. What's the most efficient way to do that? Turbocharging.
While there have been improvements in integration of turbochargers and overall engine design to better accommodate them, turbochargers stress the *absolute hell* out of engines from the increased combustion chamber pressures, temperature, and accelerated oil breakdown as a result of the heat produced by the turbine/compressor alone. As a side note, many modern engines - turbocharged or not - run a hotter thermostat than engines from a decade or two ago, because engines burn fuel more efficiently at higher temperatures.
For the second part, manufacturing quality.
I've mentioned this in other comments, but we're currently going through the enshittification of, well, everything really. While the term is technically reserved for *online* goods and services, it's pretty easy to see that the concept can be applied across multiple different markets.
Basically, in an effort to cut costs and increase profits, manufacturers are sourcing cheaper design, cheaper materials, cheaper labor, cheaper quality control processes. Well, after so many cuts and so much cheaper, it gets to a point where the cheaper really shows and it's become a prominent variable in how reliable one modern engine can be from the next, even if it's the same design.
Combine these two factors and probably more that I haven't thought of when you compare this to low-compression, low-stress and in some cases, *overbuilt* engines from nearly 20 years ago such as the one in your example and it can be pretty easy to see why a modern turbocharged engine boosted off its nuts to haul ass and/or tow 7,000 lbs while still getting decent fuel economy and meet emissions requirements when driven sanely *might* have problems under load.
I agree with everything you've said. Especially the part that manufacturers and consumers are treating today's vehicles as disposable appliance. I think this culture shift has something to do when the first iPhone came out. People are willing to replace a really expensive electronic which once would have been kept for at least 5 years. Now it became acceptable to replace an expensive item every year as long it has the latest and greatest. Corporation took note and here we are today.
BMW X3 and lesser so the 3 series.
A 2003-2005 3 series has the interior quality of a modern day 7 series.
The modern x3 is downright atrocious and competes with Honda.
I feel like no one around here had a fully decked 330xi from then. It was leather everywhere and no hallow plastic to be seen.
A base x7 seems like junk in comparison
I think modern computing allows for a threshold more than what was easily achievable even 20 years ago. We know tensile strengths of different materials, we know costs, there are more different kinds of materials now than there were, and we can track it so much more easily than ever before. We also have better institutional knowledge of modern plastics after they really came into play in the 80’s and 90’s, so manufacturers have a much better idea of how to cheap out/where to cheap out.
I think that if manufacturers could engineer to a threshold back in the day like the do now, they would’ve. This is also very manufacturer dependent on what the threshold is
The v6 minivan motor Wranglers overheat both the engine and the transmission on hills on fire trails. We had one briefly at our ranch but it was unusable - while my Santa Cruz has never had a hiccup…I had a 2015 WRX Sti that would overheat (completely stock) on the highway if it was over 110f, and on the track if it was above 65f and it pissed out of the rear dif breather in regular driving. I used an ass-ton of cobra cloth and some heat blankets and a tune and some wind scoops and got it to be ok on the highway and on track up to high 70s but that was the best I got it to do before I got tired of it and traded it for a kit car. Pretty much every other non-BMW/non-tesla modern car has been fine for its intended use in my experience of my own and my family and friends’ cars. Hell, even my friend’s Range Rover plays on our ranch though it keeps popping its rubber band tires.
My take is that the engines are really at the limit. I mean think about it, getting almost 3oo HP from a less than 107 cubic inch 4 cyl. engine when 40 years ago they couldn't 300 hp out of a 350 cubic inch V8.
Ford is arguably one of the worst possible brands right now when discussing this. I worked in their dealerships for a bit and 2018+ ford has been an absolute disgusting pile of dog water. I dont know how anyone justifies purchasing them anymore. You can buy a used car with less issues.
Engineering unreliability back into cars by making things run at more extreme thresholds. Smaller size, higher operating temperature. more plastics. Things don't usually like heating up and cooling off a lot, and especially not plastic. Cheaper metals, fabrics, plastics, cheaper everything.
Another counterpoint: I have had no fewer than three Jeeps with the 4.0 I6, and although that engine was bulletproof and awesome all around...it's weak point in my experience was cooling. I had it overheat on me more than once during extended climbs. Never had that issue with any newer vehicle.
But your point is well taken; cars are more refined and are run by more robust computers/drive by wire systems, etc. than 20 years ago. The days of mechanical linkage from the trans shifter, gas pedal linkage, and an actual steering wheel shaft are long gone. A lot of these changes were safety-driven. The margins are thin now, but cars can be engineered to the edge as we have systems that prevent the car from blowing itself up; well, it makes it more difficult than it was 20 years ago at least.
I would argue peak reliability was in the 90s or early 00s, before things like turbocharging and ultra tight tolerances with thinner oils became commonplace. A modern turbo car with a non-serviceable 10-speed transmission and direct fuel injection is not going to last 400k miles like a 90s Toyota.
In addition, there are many other modern design features that compromise long-term durability:
\-Accelerated warm-up cycles
\-Offset piston/rod geometries
\-Open deck block designs (and general lack of bottom-end reinforcement)
\-Cylinder deactivation (more moving parts)
\-Tighter clearances for marginally reduced emissions
\-Integrated injector/intake manifold units (cannot replace individual parts)
\-Sealed transmissions
\-Stop/start systems
\-Accelerated warm-up cycles
...not to mention turbochargers and all the associated hardware, higher cylinder pressures, cooling issues, etc. Most modern engines are like appliances - they are designed with a finite service life and are very difficult to replace/service after that.
\-Accelerated warm-up cycles,
What's wrong with that? Accelerated warm up cycle works to bring the oil and coolant to the optimal temperature, effectively lowering the wear.
\- Open deck block designs (and general lack of bottom-end reinforcement)
There's nothing inherently wrong with open deck block design and it allows for a better cooling.
\-Tighter clearances for marginally reduced emissions
Again, how is that an actual problem? If anything, depending on which clearances you speak about because it's an umbrella term, tighter clearances will improve things as fuel efficiency, oil consumption, actual power etc.
For pistons, running looser clearances will actually result in piston slap, wearing down the actual pistons as well as ovalizing the engine block, therefore even further increasing the oil consumption and lowering the power.
It's hard to tell what OP meant with this vague description (which, can also be applied to all the other points), it could very well be something like SAI.
> A modern turbo car with a non-serviceable 10-speed transmission and direct fuel injection is not going to last 400k miles like a 90s Toyota.
And yet some of the longest lasting engines are Toyota turbos from the 90s.
No one says the 2JZ or 1HD-FT or 3S-GTE is unreliable.
Direct injection on the 1HD.
I disagree in the notion turbo = unreliable.
We need to pass laws requiring base levels of repairability/service ability to combat planned obsolescence. It's bad for the consumer and the planet to just be building stuff designed to be thrown away
That's what I'm thinking. I don't think all older cars are built better but it seems like late 90s early 00s was the sweet spot. We'll see how these cars hold up I guess.
Echo this sentiment. I’ve got a 99 4runner and it’s stupid over engineered in a few areas. Iron block and insanely stout auto trans. Never had either ever get close to overheating and as you said it’s pretty easy to repair anything on it.
I think most makes are suffering from emissions and tightened budgets.
I don’t think any car is going to die from an open deck if not modded. Modern understanding of materials has changed as have ECUs which place more constant stress on cylinder walls. I’d also be curious to know why offset cranks will hurt longevity, since their purpose is to reduce piston-cylinder wall pressure on the ignition stroke.
These days there is massive "nickel and diming" as part of the design process, aided and abetted by modern design software. Every part has a "life" and year by year those "life" projections reduce. And then you have management saying "get the costs down by X% per year". And on it goes...
It’s more that public trading and its expectation of continuous growth forever has caused companies of all kinds to resort to more and more degenerative strategies to keep the second derivative of profit positive. Two things ruin a company: private equity and public trading.
Older vehicles were overbuilt for several reasons. A lot is the cast iron blocks, though changes in how oil is used in the engine, and oil quality made old engines tolerant to low quality or no oil.
Engines made before oil filters had much shorter oil intervals, and they were designed to have metal flakes inside the oil. From my experience such engines can experience more wear before they become unusable.
My experience with Toyota I4, the older ones weren't made to make impressive power. If you look at the chain on a 3rz it's much wider and stronger than what they use on an A25A despite making less power. This gives it a long lifespan or capacity to take abuse. You might say this is good, but judging by how unliked the 2TR-FE was, people cared more about useable power.
Modern cars also use oil pressure to do a lot, like changing the timing, tensioning the chains, and adjusting the valves. Old engines used oil to lubricate and absorb heat, and not much else. So they'll handle loss of oil pressure much better (especially if the tensioners lack a ratchet mechanism like newer Toyota's have started going to >:( ). There isn't much upside for using oil as a tensioner, but for valves the old engine you'd have to go in and measure the valve shims which is a huge pain in the ass, hydraulically adjusting valves made this job extinct.
And when an engine gets worn out, the old engine has yet another advantage, they were cast iron. You don't see people rebuilding new engines much because they cant (some can, but it's a lot rarer). Aluminum engines use cast iron sleeve, and they're too thin to be bored out. And unfortunately in Toyota's case, they also can't be re-sleeved either, if the bore is worn the block is trash. Old engines also were more often closed deck which has some tradeoffs, but is stronger.
New engines have some advantages, a surprising amount have gone to cam towers or cradles that can be swapped out. In a 3rz, if a cam wears through the journal the head is done for, on a new engine a cam cradle can be dropped in. However I think this is rather moot, anything that necessitates a replacement cam cradle would likely also trash the non-rebuildable block.
I think it depends on what you’re buying. I’ve had a 2020 Subaru Outback, that while plastic laden, felt fairly well built, though probably the cheapest of my cars for the past decade. I’ve also had a 2021 Camry and a 2023 Lexus ES 300h and those were very solid and nice cars. I own a Porsche 911 from 2012 now and honestly rattles a lot more than any other car I’ve owned, but it is very nicely made. I have driven all of those on mountain roads and never had one overheat though. The Porsche by far has the most sensitive gauges
Most temp gauges are mere idiots lights in disguise. They don’t show the natural rise and fall of coolant temp because people would be complaining left and right about it. Need to monitor in a situation like this. A Scangauge or an app with an obdII dongle is perfect.
Cars prices remained pretty much consistent adjusted for inflation over the years. However, they’ve gotten a lot more tech, features, engineering advancements, etc. To maintain those prices, something has to give.
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