$170k pay in Bay Area (VHCOL) or €78k annual pay in Netherlands. Worth it to leave the US? Don’t want to mess up. HELP!
Posted by ForeignLong6211@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 86 comments
[Reposting now that election results are settled. I know no one can make decisions for me. Just looking for advice or additional considerations as a foreign legal worker with this new administration]
Not sure if this is the best subreddit for this. Please let me know. I feel privileged to have this dilemma but don’t want to mess up and make the wrong decision
I (30yrs) am a SINK focused on investing to be work-optional/retired in 12-15 years. In the meantime, getting green card and citizenship to remain in the US permanently
I recently got a job offer to relocate to the Netherlands on a permanent contract. From my research, I should be able to maintain my quality of life even with the lower salary
This is not a complete list of pros/cons of Netherlands. Let me know what you think
Pros: less divisive political climate (yes I know Europe’s far right is growing but the impact seems slower). Easier/cheaper to travel in the EU. More certain and faster path to citizenship. Better work life balance and vacation hours
Cons: weather( I’m originally from warm climate and scared of seasonal depression), family and timezone (will be far from family in US and a parent is getting treatment for chronic illness here), language barrier, may need to push back retirement goal due to lower salary and high taxes.
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
I assume you'd be abandoning your green card / citizen pursuit if you were to move to the Netherlands?
Personally, I wouldn't bother for that salary. It likely wouldn't increase much from there also. The wage ceiling is always much higher in the USA.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I don’t have a green card yet. Company is in the process of getting it via work
wagdog1970@reddit
The point is your green card gets revoked if you don’t actually reside in the US. It is a residency visa, not a passport. But if you obtain residency in the NL, it might not matter to you.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I DONT HAVE A GREEN CARD YET. IF I MOVE, I WILL NO LONGER GET OR NEED ONE. I WILL PURSUE NL RESIDENCY INSTEAD. I’ve said this sooo many times now. People can’t read
wagdog1970@reddit
So you come here asking for advice but get offended when it is offered? My point was not based on whether you already have one or not but you seem to have been considering the impact on future retirement plans to include living in the SF area. And this may come as a surprise to you, but you as you are from the Bay Area you probably don’t realize you can simply ignore comments without being a cunt about it.
Previous_Repair8754@reddit
if you do not spend one half of every year in the US, you lose your green card.
Gardium90@reddit
Not familiar with NL cost of living, but I know compared to many EU locations California in particular has high taxes, and very high cost of living.
I wouldn't dismiss the EU salary without a thorough comparison. E.g. I'm at 6 figure in LCoL (not VLCoL), pay 2.5k a month in living costs, the rest is discretionary income. Even with high spending, I'm saving over 30k a year... at 180k as a SINK in California, depending on lifestyle, I'm not so sure OP saves more, and factor in future savings needs, they might not be better off for future retirement. But it all depends on specifics
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
You're not wrong. I used to live in California and moved to London this year. In my case, I've lucked out with a high paying job that's comparable to what I could have achieved in CA. UK taxes and expenses end up being as bad I find. Expenses depend on where you land. In London, it's about as expensive as it was in LA. Although grocery prices are generally much better, which is a relief.
Gardium90@reddit
My salary is far from a top US or UK salary, and my profile makes it no secret where I am. I can get moderately tipsy for 4 EUR of beer (1 liter premium Pilsner beer), and almost drunk for double that. Food costs for DINK is 500 EUR and we splurge... with eating out it is around 1k EUR. And we eat out a lot. Mortgage plus association fees for two flats is 1.2k, and utilities 300. Then plus a little for 2 cars plus various adhoc, if eating out is considered spending, then total recurring living costs is just over 2k, total spending each month 3k, and savings 2k, plus savings accrued from bonus, total savings is 30k a year and monthly spending is way above an average gross salary for my location.
Could I potentially save more in the US if I luck out? Sure. Would I have the same life stability and lifestyle. Not likely. My flight for a long weekend get away (and to get Platinum Elite with Marriott Bonvoy program) is taking off, and a get away like this is costing me 600 EUR 😁 a new country, new culture and culinary experience. Not sure how doable that is in the US. Cheers 👋
Xeroque_Holmes@reddit
Netherlands is definitely much more expensive than that. No way you pay for studio in a small town with that mortgage, let alone two flats. And taxes are high in NL, 70k ain't that much.
Gardium90@reddit
Ok thanks for the info. As I said, not too familiar with NL, but my point was more: if you know where to look and prioritize the money, there are plenty of good opportunities in EU that can rival the US in discretionary income for top paying jobs. Now with RTO and remote dwindling, unless extremely lucky most well paying US jobs are in VHCoL cities, where rent quickly can be thousands of dollars for anything larger than a shoe box. Sure if you scrimp on all expenses and live super frugally you can make huge bank, but not the life I want.
But, the opportunities aren't in places most consider "luxurious" from reputation,... but I can guarantee a lot has changed in post communist central Europe in the past 10-15 years, and Poland is on track to overtake the UK economy in this decade. Well paying jobs are not rare, but the average pay is obviously not great. Average jobs are better off in a western+northern Europe.
If I remain in LCoL areas, my plan is to retire in my mid 50's in 20 years. I started investing heavily almost 5 years ago, and I'm at almost 100k EUR invested, plus emergency fund plus real estate assets (250k in disposable value if I sell). Baring some fluke catastrophic economic event in the world that wipes out decades of financial gains, I figure I'll be set to execute on my plan. Time will tell. Cheers
Xeroque_Holmes@reddit
Being a dev in Eastern/Central Europw is overpowered.
Gardium90@reddit
The crazy part: while I'm clearly above average, I'm not part of the outlier zones. There is this article about the pay range for tech jobs (https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/trimodal-nature-of-tech-compensation). I'm on high end of tier 2, low end tier 3. I know people who make mid to high 6 figures in specialized tech companies, I'm just working with tech at a huge corporation. Contractors can go even higher, depending on specialization and market needs.
It is no longer rare to see high range sports, and brand electric vehicles in Prague anymore. I see Teslas all over. And new BMWs, Porsches, hell I've even seen a full electric Mercedes Maybach. I'm fortunate, but I've by no means lucked out.
Sure I'll get downvotes and people who will reject these notions, and go on about the averages which are higher other places. But making 250-300k in the US isn't average either, but decent lives are possible at 150-200k. But saying that 200k in US is much better than anything EU can offer is not a valid statement, it just depends and if people luck out, just like in the US 🤷♂️ oh well, time to enjoy my "get away", cheers 😁
Gardium90@reddit
My salary is far from a top US or UK salary, and my profile makes it no secret where I am. I can get moderately tipsy for 4 EUR of beer (1 liter premium Pilsner beer), and almost drunk for double that. Food costs for DINK is 500 EUR and we splurge... with eating out it is around 1k EUR. And we eat out a lot. Mortgage plus association fees for two flats is 1.2k, and utilities 300. Then plus a little for 2 cars plus various adhoc, if eating out is considered spending, then total recurring living costs is just over 2k, total spending each month 3k, and savings 2k, plus savings accrued from bonus, total savings is 30k a year and monthly spending is way above an average gross salary for my location.
Could I potentially save more in the US if I luck out? Sure. Would I have the same life stability and lifestyle. Not likely. My flight for a long weekend get away (and to get Platinum Elite with Marriott Bonvoy program) is taking off, and a get away like this is costing me 600 EUR 😁 a new country, new culture and culinary experience. Not sure how doable that is in the US. Cheers 👋
Blackfish69@reddit
I think you're basically asking for a bashing with this post. Ill play though... Absolutely makes no sense to move to dreary NL to make a fraction of your salary even post tax in Cali. Saving 10-20% of your income in Cali is lightyears better than 10-20% in NL.... Plus all the lifestyle and family proximity.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I’m not gonna entertain this view of people. I’m not tolling but looking for advice. We can’t be know it alls like you
hudibrastic@reddit
Yes, the guy is basically asking “What is better: be rich and happy, or poor and sad?”
Airport-Designer@reddit
No way NL. 50% tax and 78K is nothing here in NL especially if you live in big cities. Rent + Energy + transportation will eat your 50-60% Net.
BrokenProjects@reddit
Highly skilled migrants get the 30% ruling, so tax would be a lower % in NL vs California in these tax brackets. That being said, 170k can be stretched a lot further (I think) in the bay area than in the NL. In NL the system is set up so that you have less cash, but more things are insured or covered by the government (safety nets). US is higher risk, but higher reward.
hudibrastic@reddit
30% ruling now is only for 5 years, and only first 20 months it is 30%, 20% next 20 months, and 10% last 20% of months
It is not worth the sacrifice of living in the most unfriendly and boring place on earth
BrokenProjects@reddit
It has been slowly getting worse, but it's still a pretty good deal compared to other countries with well paid engineering jobs. It's not fair to color OPs opinion with just your personal opinion of the place. I really enjoy it here. It's an incredibly safe and stable feeling place to live, and they have a great party scene. It really just depends on what you're looking for.
hudibrastic@reddit
Safe places are Dubai, Singapore, Japan… Amsterdam is ok lost count of how many burglaries I heard about
Sure, the party scene is great… if you like techno, as this is the only thing they have a strong scene
modijk@reddit
Another pro: healthcare is way cheaper in NL (mandatory insurance for about 150 euro per month, after that healthcare is free, except for the first 500-1000 euro per year that you have to pay out of pocket.
Language should not be a very big problem. People that are giving you a hard time for not speaking Dutch typically are not worth your time (I am Dutch myself), bad almost everyone speaks English.
badtux99@reddit
If you're employed you will not be paying much if anything for health insurance in the US. I am paying $60/month for the absolute best gold plated plan offered by my employer. That's it. Where healthcare in America becomes unaffordable is if you become unemployed and have to pay for it yourself. Or when you retire and Part B, Part D, and MediGap suck you dry.
Of course, depending upon your health insurance company it can be difficult to actually use that healthcare. I am using Kaiser-Permanente. It is sort of like using the NHS in the UK, but at least you won't go bankrupt getting healthcare through them.
modijk@reddit
Is 100% of the expenses covered in the US by insurers? I understood it is 80-90% only.
badtux99@reddit
In the good policies like mine, all you pay is the deductible. I had surgery that cost $60k, all I paid was the $80 deductible. Well, and $20 for a prescription medicine.
wagdog1970@reddit
Shhh, this is Reddit and everyone knows you will go bankrupt if you do much as catch a cold in the US. It’s just a weird coincidence that 320 million people somehow find a way to survive (and even actually thrive) despite the cost of healthcare.
hashtagashtab@reddit
320 million people are not thriving in the US, trust me. I worked in health insurance, both private and Medicaid, and saw plenty of people in with enormous medical debt from being previously uninsured or using their insurance “wrong” (like having a medical emergency out of network in a state without surprise billing protections).
ctzn2000@reddit
40% of bankruptcies filed in the US are because of medical debt.
badtux99@reddit
Where you go bankrupt is when you are too sick to work and exhaust your sick leave. Unpaid FMLA leave doesn't pay the bills, the US is one of the only countries that has unpaid long term medical sick leave, and when you exhaust your FMLA you get fired (again, the US is one of the only countries where it is legal to fire someone for being sick, with certain limits). One of my friends had a wife dying of a deadly organ disease. Her supervisor kept her on staff for as long as possible to keep the medical benefits active, but when she went into hospice and was no longer able to work, that was the end of the health insurance. My friend is now living in a tiny home with his dog because the medical industry took everything -- his wife, his house, his retirement savings, everything. But that's America. He survived, but he's not having a fun time of it.
wagdog1970@reddit
I’m curious, did she apply for disability? Medicaid and SocialSecurity disability exists for exactly those types of situations. You won’t get rich, but you have government provided medical insurance and won’t starve. Of course you have to exhaust your savings before you are eligible for Medicaid.
badtux99@reddit
Social Security disability requires you wait a year. She did not last a year.
Medicaid is why her survivor has no assets left.
werchoosingusername@reddit
Send PM
LukasJackson67@reddit
I think op is overstating the political divisiness that he would encounter living in the Bay Area.
thebrackenrecord912@reddit
No. We took a 30% paycut. And it was worth it, but barely.
i-love-freesias@reddit
Lower income will mean a lower social security retirement benefit.
hudibrastic@reddit
Retire at 45? Forget the Netherlands then, there is only one possible option out of the two
realmozzarella22@reddit
Just stay in the US. If the country falls apart then you can move.
toosemakesthings@reddit
This is a ridiculous question. Obviously go to NL and send my CV to your US employer for their next H1B sponsorship ;)
LDNcorgi@reddit
I think this question is more about where you are from and what your values are.
Do you value retiring early moreso than living in a place you love and want to settle in? Then make the decision based on money.
However, you should probably consider what the NL opportunity will give you outside of money - could you get citizenship if you stayed a certain amount of time on the visa through work? Is that something you want? Could that afford you different opportunities in the future?
Personally, I would reconsider my early retirement if that meant I got EU citizenship and freedom to settle and work anywhere in the EU. But that's based on my values.
eattheambrosia@reddit
Yeah, well I'm a BATHTUB.
cheesecow007@reddit
Barely able to have the utmost basics
Gardium90@reddit
Oh damn. I'd never guessed that one. But makes sense
VictoriaSobocki@reddit
🫠
Gardium90@reddit
Lol.
Single Income No Kids 😂
ParadisHeights@reddit
I think you would have a better quality of life in California as a high earner assuming work hours are the same. USA is a great place to be rich, but a bad place to be if you’re not.
eurogamer206@reddit
Husband and I both relocated to Amsterdam two years ago, taking huge pay cuts. But not as big of a cut as yours. With the 5-year 30% ruling (it might be lower in coming years), there are indeed tax breaks. But housing is very expensive and competitive, at least in major cities. Owning a car is cost-prohibitive and train fare is very expensive. (For instance it costs me €30 for a round-trip train ticket only 30 mins way from Amsterdam to Utrecht.) But I don’t own a car and get around mostly by bicycle. That said, there is no sales tax and tipping culture is not as bad (or expected) as the U.S. so you can save money in other ways. If your goal is to retire early, I would talk to a financial advisor. I don’t think with that pay cut you’ll be on track, sadly. With the 30% ruling I estimate your take home to be around €4k per month. And without (after 5 years are up), it’ll be only €3k after taxes.
FishFeet500@reddit
With all due respect, amsterdam to utrecht, without a discount of any kind or subscription is 8.80 one way, and 17 euro return so where you’re getting 30 from is a mystery to me.
eurogamer206@reddit
From Centraal station maybe. I’m talking about from where I live. Other places charge by zone whereas NL adds more cost based on actual number of stops. Which is absurd.
xinit@reddit
"relocated to Amsterdam"
I understand why they made that guess.
eurogamer206@reddit
Huh? I’m in Amsterdam. But not everyone lives right by central station.
ProbablyBsPlzIgnore@reddit
In NL that’s a decent income, but not retire early kind of money. I enjoyed living and working there, but your last paragraph about the climate is a red flag. You’re going to hate the 6 months of gloom and rain there. My spouse was absolutely miserable. If you weren’t giving up a green card and a high income for it, I’d say give it a try, but it sounds like there’s no going back if you do.
Don’t move because of elections, it’s not our business how the locals choose to run their country, and you’ll find the same right wing populist surge going on in Europe. This move to the populist right you see here today happened in NL in the early 2000s and is still going on.
Expats who move because of positive reasons tend to be successful. Eager for the experience, visited a country and fell in love with it, an amazing job offer, stuff like that. Expats who move because of negative reasons will have a hard time.
WilliamTells26@reddit
Europe = more time US = more money
Which is more important to you?
Previous_Repair8754@reddit
Do you speak Dutch?
mandance17@reddit
US is better
y3rik@reddit
78k is not a lot in NL
https://thetax.nl/?startFrom=Year&selectedYear=2024&older=false&allowance=false&socialSecurity=true&hoursAmount=40&ruling=false&income=78000
That's only 4k take-home and apartments and depending where you live apartments are expensive! I did this move, I would stick with 170 in the bay area.
Fungled@reddit
You are mad to give up green card / citizenship track. Get off that and chances of getting back on are close enough to zero. The world is not ending. You can retire to Europe if you wish. Frankly in a few decades we’ll be desperate for your money
Sisyphuss5MinBreak@reddit
Have you visited the Netherlands? Do you know if your even like being there?
Personally, I love the Netherlands and would easily select it if I were presented your two options, but our lives might be very different. I plan on working for a long time but want to enjoy my life without having to wait for retirement. I like to bike everywhere and dislike driving. I love being in an international setting. California, excluding the heart of San Francisco, is multi-ethnic but not international.
The things I miss from California are 1) better food options and 2) better nature, and 2) distance to family. Personally, I'm willing to make that trade.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I’ve visited and had short assignments there. No green card yet. Still in process. If I move, I will abandon pursuing green card and pursue Dutch permanent residency instead
invitrium@reddit
You'll need to learn and pass Dutch language exams to get the PR.
Stuffthatpig@reddit
It's not that hard
invitrium@reddit
Just making her aware as there are no exams for US GC.
Stuffthatpig@reddit
That's fair. And they already speak the lingua franca.
jupacaluba@reddit
Hard truth is that NL does not want people to FIRE.
Taxation here is ridiculous on your total net worth (that includes savings, investments, real estate). If your net worth is above 57k euros (which let’s be honest, it’s not a lot, you’re gonna be taxed on it.
I moved here for my job, I’m not gonna say I regret it because it’s a great country to live overall, but if your goal is building wealth, there are much more friendlier places.
Cherry on top is the housing crisis.
bel2man@reddit
Think I already saw your post somewhere.
Nope - that wage in NL is too small. Tax in California and NL is almost the same. Dont accept anything below 120kEUR in NL as minimum
BonsaiBobby@reddit
You haven't followed Dutch politics? It's in complete chaos and the government can fall any moment.
Buying is much easier than the rental market. With a fixed contract and 78k you can get a mortgage up around 350k. Apartments in Amsterdam costs around 8-10k per square meter, near Eindhoven they are cheaper. Payed interest can be deducted from the taxes so buying is the way to go.
If you want to be FIRE in 15 years, I would just stay in the US and live frugally and invest every penny saved.
Modullah@reddit
U.s. and it’s not even close given your situation. It’s just four years and you live in California. You will be fine. Try to increase your earnings so you can retire earlier(per your 12-15 track.)
GlobeTrekking@reddit
I will add that I was a single engineer in the Bay Area and I was able to live frugally ... it's when you have a family, want to buy a place, etc. when it gets really expensive but a single guy can get by much more cheaply
nomiinomii@reddit
What's your current nationality and is your green card application part of eb1/eb2 etc. If you're Indian or similarly endless green card queue then it's worth going to Europe.
Secondly, how much do you value the last few years of your parents life and spending it closer to them. If you move away, you'll see them maybe 1-2 times a year max, which at this age might mean you'll see them 10-20 times total ever again. Is that okay?
badtux99@reddit
170K pay in the Bay Area will get you a good apartment within reasonable commute distance of work for $3,500/month. That's $42K of your income going to the apartment. Your marginal rate on that 170K will be around 25% once you add in Social Security taxes, which is cheap compared to the NL rate. You *should* be able to shove a bunch of money into savings in the Bay Area each month despite $42K going to rent.
€72k annual pay in the NL is not going to come anywhere near the amount of money that you can shove into savings with a $170K salary in the SF Bay area. Even with the higher cost of living you should be able to easily shovel $3K/month into savings, then into a stock index mutual fund that can return 8% or better over the course of 12-15 years. You can easily end up with $1M in that mutual fund, which will just compound from there.
As for politics, the Bay Area is sort of this weird bubble right now. Not exactly liberal, but lacking the nativism / racism / bigotry of right wing movements elsewhere. I feel you will be as welcome there as in the Netherlands. But it's definitely a place to make money, not a place you want to retire to.
SomeAd8993@reddit
my brother lives in the NL (Groningen/Utrecht), I live in the Bay Area
with those numbers it would be foolish to even consider the move
FIlifesomeday@reddit
Bay Area is expensive for a reason, it’s beautiful, good weather, can travel to awesome places near by. I’d stay for a bit then move when ready to settle down.
monbabie@reddit
I’d recommend keep working in the U.S. with the aim for citizenship, and then look again for positions in the NL. Save money like crazy now and move later. The jobs will likely still be there. If you planned to have kids then I’d recommend moving earlier but if you plan to retire early, make more money in the U.S. first.
PanickyFool@reddit
God no. SINK? Stay in USA.
BTW here in NL a lot of the policies being pushed forward in USA are already in place. No all, but many.
EnjoyerOfPolitics@reddit
As someone from NL, I would say mobility wise its perfect, not to mention benefits of EU regulation on quality of life, however, 78k is frankly on the low end, especially knowing that you get the 30% ruling.
Housing right now is an absolute shitshow regardless if you are in Amsterdam or Groningen.
hobomaniaking@reddit
No, in your case it is obviously not worth it. I live in Amsterdam. 78k€ is peanuts here. It is 6000€ bruto per month, they don’t take into consideration the 8% vacation money. So you would need to find an apartment for 2000€ in Amsterdam. This is near to impossible and even if you do you’d be competing with a lot of others. Being far from your closest family is too hard especially when they are sick. Work life balance over here is much better indeed, but it can also be in the US as well. You’d just have to settle for the same salary level as Amsterdam and work a bit less. No?
Geejay-101@reddit
Its not all about cost of living and salary.
The most important consideration is where your career will prosper best? If you are successful in your job you will inevitably go to the appropriate pay level, irrespectively of where you live.
CarelessInevitable26@reddit
Dutch PR / passport may take 10 years under new rules.
I think this move will certainly delay your retirement but 87k is enough to not struggle in NL. Especially while you are on the 30% rule and if you don’t live in Amsterdam
Stuffthatpig@reddit
They probably will be going to Eindhoven though and can deal with the housing madness there.
New-Perspective8617@reddit
Do you intend to move there and stay forever? If so, the salary would probably be fine and you’ll just retire there with a lower cost of living. If you want to retire in the US it would be super hard to have enough money saved with that salary to come back to the US later, I assume. Depends on how much you have saved and what age you want to retire. Also depends on your family ties here and if you CAN come back if immigration is an issue
Grouchy_Tennis9195@reddit
Ask yourself, even though you may be able to afford to live in NL for $78k, would you still be able to retire when you want without the extra $90,000 income?
chardrizard@reddit
I live in NL, it’s good place but it’s not FIRE friendly.
You’re most likely at your ceiling, maybe up to 100k+ at most unless you’re aiming execs position which is rarely if you don’t speak local language.
Gotta calculate your current NW and compare if you wanna come here, I personally love it but I have got spouse and in laws here..
LyleLanleysMonorail@reddit
Is your plan to get Dutch citizenship? They don't allow dual nationalities for most people (exceptions exist), so you have to be willing to give up your home nationality
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Yes, that’s a consideration. The plan would be to pursue permanent residency (which allows both)
LyleLanleysMonorail@reddit
Yeah if PR is sufficient, that'd be fine, but a the end of the day, it is not citizenship, and you won't enjoy the full benefits of being a EU national like freedom of movement. As long as that's ok with you, I'd say got for it.
HarvestWinter@reddit
If you have the option for a US salary, I'm not sure why you'd settle for a Dutch one, though the tax breaks in the Netherlands will help you the first few years. If you are looking at a long term move though, then that's only a temporary reprieve.
Keep in mind that if the current right wing government can manage to not collapse (which could go either way), the wait for citizenship is planned to go up to 10 years, if that influences your decision either way.