$170k pay in Bay Area (VHCOL) or €78k annual pay in Netherlands. Worth it to leave the US? Don’t want to mess up. HELP!
Posted by ForeignLong6211@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 114 comments
[Reposting now that election results are settled. I know no one can make decisions for me. Just looking for advice or additional considerations as a foreign legal worker with this new administration]
Not sure if this is the best subreddit for this. Please let me know. I feel privileged to have this dilemma but don’t want to mess up and make the wrong decision
I (30yrs) am a SINK focused on investing to be work-optional/retired in 12-15 years. In the meantime, getting green card and citizenship to remain in the US permanently
I recently got a job offer to relocate to the Netherlands on a permanent contract. From my research, I should be able to maintain my quality of life even with the lower salary
This is not a complete list of pros/cons of Netherlands. Let me know what you think
Pros: less divisive political climate (yes I know Europe’s far right is growing but the impact seems slower). Easier/cheaper to travel in the EU. More certain and faster path to citizenship. Better work life balance and vacation hours
Cons: weather( I’m originally from warm climate and scared of seasonal depression), family and timezone (will be far from family in US and a parent is getting treatment for chronic illness here), language barrier, may need to push back retirement goal due to lower salary and high taxes.
Previous_Repair8754@reddit
Do you speak Dutch?
Traditional_Chef861@reddit
There you go.......
LyleLanleysMonorail@reddit
Is your plan to get Dutch citizenship? They don't allow dual nationalities for most people (exceptions exist), so you have to be willing to give up your home nationality
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Yes, that’s a consideration. The plan would be to pursue permanent residency (which allows both)
LyleLanleysMonorail@reddit
Yeah if PR is sufficient, that'd be fine, but a the end of the day, it is not citizenship, and you won't enjoy the full benefits of being a EU national like freedom of movement. As long as that's ok with you, I'd say got for it.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
You have freedom of EU movement even with a temporary work permit
hudibrastic@reddit
Lol no you don’t
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Yes you do. You can travel to other EU countries without visa
hudibrastic@reddit
Err, this is not what freedom of movement means, I can travel to EU countries without a visa and I’m Brazilian
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Okay well you are hopeful not obtuse to think your situation applies to all/most countries. I’m curious what your definition is since you casually avoided including it knit
hudibrastic@reddit
Just Google bro
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Okay so you ARE that obtuse. A Dutch work permit gives the holder right to live anywhere within the country and right to travel anywhere within the Schengen countries. For most countries’ citizens, they cannot ordinarily do this so yes, having the permit grants them increased freedom of movement within the EU. Gosh use your brain…just taking up space in yourskull, huh?
hudibrastic@reddit
Lol, of course for EU it means across all EU COUNTRIES
Jeez, how you can be so dumb
LyleLanleysMonorail@reddit
I don't mean just traveling through borders. That's Schengen. I mean the ability to work and reside in another EU member state without requiring a visa sponsorship.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Ok I see what you mean
Airport-Designer@reddit
No way NL. 50% tax and 78K is nothing here in NL especially if you live in big cities. Rent + Energy + transportation will eat your 50-60% Net.
BrokenProjects@reddit
Highly skilled migrants get the 30% ruling, so tax would be a lower % in NL vs California in these tax brackets. That being said, 170k can be stretched a lot further (I think) in the bay area than in the NL. In NL the system is set up so that you have less cash, but more things are insured or covered by the government (safety nets). US is higher risk, but higher reward.
Airport-Designer@reddit
OP mentioned same quality of life as US. I’m sure apartment would be part of it. I have frds from states and they are bit generous with spending , layering apartment furnitures etc.
BrokenProjects@reddit
That's true, you typically have to spend more to fully furnish an apartment here, but that's a one time expense and then you can take it with you. Not to say it's not a consideration. By quality of life I meant in terms of benefits, vacation time, work-life balance, and the culture of enjoying your free time away from work. In the US it's not unheard of to plan your holidays around company milestones or projects, and I've gotten calls while I was on vacation to answer questions. Having lived in both places, I have a lot more peace of mind here and I don't feel that my standard of living dropped, just my savings rate (although it's hard to get a feel for what exactly is in your pension).
hudibrastic@reddit
30% ruling now is only for 5 years, and only first 20 months it is 30%, 20% next 20 months, and 10% last 20% of months
It is not worth the sacrifice of living in the most unfriendly and boring place on earth
BrokenProjects@reddit
It has been slowly getting worse, but it's still a pretty good deal compared to other countries with well paid engineering jobs. It's not fair to color OPs opinion with just your personal opinion of the place. I really enjoy it here. It's an incredibly safe and stable feeling place to live, and they have a great party scene. It really just depends on what you're looking for.
hudibrastic@reddit
Safe places are Dubai, Singapore, Japan… Amsterdam is ok lost count of how many burglaries I heard about
Sure, the party scene is great… if you like techno, as this is the only thing they have a strong scene
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
I assume you'd be abandoning your green card / citizen pursuit if you were to move to the Netherlands?
Personally, I wouldn't bother for that salary. It likely wouldn't increase much from there also. The wage ceiling is always much higher in the USA.
Gardium90@reddit
Not familiar with NL cost of living, but I know compared to many EU locations California in particular has high taxes, and very high cost of living.
I wouldn't dismiss the EU salary without a thorough comparison. E.g. I'm at 6 figure in LCoL (not VLCoL), pay 2.5k a month in living costs, the rest is discretionary income. Even with high spending, I'm saving over 30k a year... at 180k as a SINK in California, depending on lifestyle, I'm not so sure OP saves more, and factor in future savings needs, they might not be better off for future retirement. But it all depends on specifics
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
You're not wrong. I used to live in California and moved to London this year. In my case, I've lucked out with a high paying job that's comparable to what I could have achieved in CA. UK taxes and expenses end up being as bad I find. Expenses depend on where you land. In London, it's about as expensive as it was in LA. Although grocery prices are generally much better, which is a relief.
Gardium90@reddit
My salary is far from a top US or UK salary, and my profile makes it no secret where I am. I can get moderately tipsy for 4 EUR of beer (1 liter premium Pilsner beer), and almost drunk for double that. Food costs for DINK is 500 EUR and we splurge... with eating out it is around 1k EUR. And we eat out a lot. Mortgage plus association fees for two flats is 1.2k, and utilities 300. Then plus a little for 2 cars plus various adhoc, if eating out is considered spending, then total recurring living costs is just over 2k, total spending each month 3k, and savings 2k, plus savings accrued from bonus, total savings is 30k a year and monthly spending is way above an average gross salary for my location.
Could I potentially save more in the US if I luck out? Sure. Would I have the same life stability and lifestyle. Not likely. My flight for a long weekend get away (and to get Platinum Elite with Marriott Bonvoy program) is taking off, and a get away like this is costing me 600 EUR 😁 a new country, new culture and culinary experience. Not sure how doable that is in the US. Cheers 👋
Blackfish69@reddit
youd need to move to a very rural/midwest city in US to compare to that spending criteria. my guess is your lifestyle would take a significant dip vs where you’re at now
Gardium90@reddit
Yes, very likely. But my main point is more, that even if I compare NYC, SF, Seattle or any other VHCoL area with the potential for jobs paying 200k+, after taxes and all living expenses for a similar lifestyle (or in future swap the lifestyle with kids), where I'll eat out almost 1 meal a day on average (no fast food, real mid level restaurant. Today's restaurant meal for my lunch break was 'crispy duck in spicy veggie curry with rice', full plate, 8 EUR).
I also get regular pedicures, spa treatments and go to sauna chain. 15 EUR for a whole Saturday of relaxation. 50 EUR for the day if the wife and I decide to grab dinner and a movie after the relaxation.
I go on about 6-8 long weekend trips per year, as I wrote in comment before I'm on a trip now. I basically have a very very happy and enjoyable life, plus I don't worry about job, social or health stability.
If I made 250k in SF, could I afford to find a flat within the city, 35 min by reliable public transport to my office, pay that rent plus my lifestyle or kids, and save at least 40k a year? Since if I can't, then I won't be better off in the US unless I get a top 0.1% job or whatever is 300k+.
Blackfish69@reddit
So you expect to save 40k/year on 78k with kids in Netherlands while maintaining that lifestyle? Seems like a stretch and if true at a minimum still an unfair comparison.
The answer is yes you could if you're making 250k. However, equating exactly the same experience is never equivalent. Cali is like being in a totally different environment and you pay for that. Beaches, weather, glorious access to nature, culture highlights, and most importantly for your kids opportunity etc. You're not going to find 8EUR meals, but 25$ will get you anything you need for food wise.
Gardium90@reddit
I'm not OP in NL. I said I make 6 figures in a LCoL. 70-75k net, 3k costs per month with high expenditure. Save over 2k on average per month.
There are short videos showing pizza slices in California for $30. I don't think $25 will get me an equivalent crispy duck in veggie curry meal that is healthy, in downtown of a major city...
Also, what you describe as "pay to access" we have in many parts of EU... I'm doing yearly travels to the Dalmatian coast just a few hours away, I have great mountain treks in my area and could take vacation to the alps in a few hours. For culture, there are plenty of international tours of famous artists in many locations nearby. Swift, ColdPlay, Rammstein play at a venue less than 20km from my home...
Kids opportunities?? To be in a car centric environment where they can't even walk to school without random people calling CPS. Education debt and more? Sorry, I'd rather pay to not have those conditions for my kids 🤷
Blackfish69@reddit
I have lived in NYC, Miami, and frequent these other cities you talk about. You can eat good food for 25$ don't be hyperbolic if it's 35 that doesn't really change my point. I have also spent a lot of time in EU. Try comparing "pay to access" places in EU and they are often just as expensive if not more. Barca, Paris, London, Amsterdam... etc etc
Anyways, agreed. You're able to live cheaper and comfortably in lcol cities. However, I stand behind it's not a real lifestyle comparison to whatever to an A tier destination cali/nyc/mia offers- regardless of pitfalls of walkability that exist. (I grew up in Mississippi/Louisiana I have perspective lol).
Gardium90@reddit
Remember I eat 1 such meal a day out on average. $10-15 more for what I consider a proper healthy meal, when I'm able to get that for $8 is not hyperbolic, that is $300-450 extras in budget each month that you aren't considering...
And sure, if I also venture into my city which also is a tourist destination, I can find places that will make me rip my eyes out due to prices. But I'll agree, for many of the expensive cities in the EU prices to expensive cities in the US is more similar. Yet, I have pretty much all I want either in my city, or within few hours driving. So why should I move to an expensive city?
"A tier city"... I've been to many cities supposedly A tier. I guess it is all on the eyes of the beholder. I don't really see why I should move to those cities, they won't make me any happier than I am currently. I have all the opportunities, experiences and necessities I need, and I don't need to "pay to access" 🤷 if I'm able to obtain pretty much exactly the same at the end of the day, also experiences, leisure and basically any kind of food I can imagine to eat
Blackfish69@reddit
You do not have A tier job opportunities, A tier international transport access, sheer quantity of intelligent people is less, sheer scale of opportunity will almost always be less. In a world where you're solving for outcomes of kids/leisure/opportunity etc\~ A tier cities just offer more most of the time.
I'm partial to rural/countryside as well. The proof is in the pudding though.
Gardium90@reddit
It might be that personal preference is the most important to those aspects, but even if we say you're right, my point has always just been to inform that expensive US cities with high salaries isn't the only way to have a great life with good savings.
If I'm able to achieve the same savings with a comparable lifestyle, why does everyone keep saying I'm stupid for not choosing the US, because for them obviously more $$$$ on the paycheck must be better 🙂 sure, if I can land those high end jobs, I'll save more perhaps, but how likely am I to get one of those? The average IT jobs seem to pay around 250k in those expensive areas, instead of the national average of 150k. Sure those numbers would on the surface seem the better deal than just over 100k, but after all is said and done, I'm not really better off financially 🤷
Xeroque_Holmes@reddit
Netherlands is definitely much more expensive than that. No way you pay for studio in a small town with that mortgage, let alone two flats. And taxes are high in NL, 70k ain't that much.
Gardium90@reddit
Ok thanks for the info. As I said, not too familiar with NL, but my point was more: if you know where to look and prioritize the money, there are plenty of good opportunities in EU that can rival the US in discretionary income for top paying jobs. Now with RTO and remote dwindling, unless extremely lucky most well paying US jobs are in VHCoL cities, where rent quickly can be thousands of dollars for anything larger than a shoe box. Sure if you scrimp on all expenses and live super frugally you can make huge bank, but not the life I want.
But, the opportunities aren't in places most consider "luxurious" from reputation,... but I can guarantee a lot has changed in post communist central Europe in the past 10-15 years, and Poland is on track to overtake the UK economy in this decade. Well paying jobs are not rare, but the average pay is obviously not great. Average jobs are better off in a western+northern Europe.
If I remain in LCoL areas, my plan is to retire in my mid 50's in 20 years. I started investing heavily almost 5 years ago, and I'm at almost 100k EUR invested, plus emergency fund plus real estate assets (250k in disposable value if I sell). Baring some fluke catastrophic economic event in the world that wipes out decades of financial gains, I figure I'll be set to execute on my plan. Time will tell. Cheers
Xeroque_Holmes@reddit
Being a dev in Eastern/Central Europw is overpowered.
Gardium90@reddit
The crazy part: while I'm clearly above average, I'm not part of the outlier zones. There is this article about the pay range for tech jobs (https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/trimodal-nature-of-tech-compensation). I'm on high end of tier 2, low end tier 3. I know people who make mid to high 6 figures in specialized tech companies, I'm just working with tech at a huge corporation. Contractors can go even higher, depending on specialization and market needs.
It is no longer rare to see high range sports, and brand electric vehicles in Prague anymore. I see Teslas all over. And new BMWs, Porsches, hell I've even seen a full electric Mercedes Maybach. I'm fortunate, but I've by no means lucked out.
Sure I'll get downvotes and people who will reject these notions, and go on about the averages which are higher other places. But making 250-300k in the US isn't average either, but decent lives are possible at 150-200k. But saying that 200k in US is much better than anything EU can offer is not a valid statement, it just depends and if people luck out, just like in the US 🤷♂️ oh well, time to enjoy my "get away", cheers 😁
Gardium90@reddit
My salary is far from a top US or UK salary, and my profile makes it no secret where I am. I can get moderately tipsy for 4 EUR of beer (1 liter premium Pilsner beer), and almost drunk for double that. Food costs for DINK is 500 EUR and we splurge... with eating out it is around 1k EUR. And we eat out a lot. Mortgage plus association fees for two flats is 1.2k, and utilities 300. Then plus a little for 2 cars plus various adhoc, if eating out is considered spending, then total recurring living costs is just over 2k, total spending each month 3k, and savings 2k, plus savings accrued from bonus, total savings is 30k a year and monthly spending is way above an average gross salary for my location.
Could I potentially save more in the US if I luck out? Sure. Would I have the same life stability and lifestyle. Not likely. My flight for a long weekend get away (and to get Platinum Elite with Marriott Bonvoy program) is taking off, and a get away like this is costing me 600 EUR 😁 a new country, new culture and culinary experience. Not sure how doable that is in the US. Cheers 👋
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I don’t have a green card yet. Company is in the process of getting it via work
wagdog1970@reddit
The point is your green card gets revoked if you don’t actually reside in the US. It is a residency visa, not a passport. But if you obtain residency in the NL, it might not matter to you.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I DONT HAVE A GREEN CARD YET. IF I MOVE, I WILL NO LONGER GET OR NEED ONE. I WILL PURSUE NL RESIDENCY INSTEAD. I’ve said this sooo many times now. People can’t read
wagdog1970@reddit
So you come here asking for advice but get offended when it is offered? My point was not based on whether you already have one or not but you seem to have been considering the impact on future retirement plans to include living in the SF area. And this may come as a surprise to you, but you as you are from the Bay Area you probably don’t realize you can simply ignore comments without being a cunt about it.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Your mum and grandma are cunts. Suck your mother prick
Previous_Repair8754@reddit
if you do not spend one half of every year in the US, you lose your green card.
SomeAd8993@reddit
my brother lives in the NL (Groningen/Utrecht), I live in the Bay Area
with those numbers it would be foolish to even consider the move
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Thanks for insight. What am i not considering in pros/cons
SomeAd8993@reddit
the weather is a big deal. If you said that you are completely indifferent maybe you could pull it off, but since you are from a warm climate and it matters to you, the NL will absolutely kill you will to live
the politics absolutely don't matter. You are a legal immigrant, you don't even get to vote and the Bay Area is blue through and through, the state is blue, SF is blue. Turn off the TV and you will see zero divisiveness nor should it matter to you. You will see more right wing antics day to day in the NL than here
retiring at 45 in Europe on a lower middle class income is a pipe dream, you won't save anything. In the US on the upper middle class income you can max out your IRA, 401k and brokerage, and have a cute little million $ reasonably soon. Then retire somewhere where real estate is more affordable, so neither NL nor CA
as many pointed out the EU naturalization process is getting more and more complex, while in the US unless you are from India or China, your employer will hold your hand through it
easier cheaper travel in the EU... neither here nor there, in the US you get easier cheaper travel in the US as well, with 50 states, beautiful nature, world famous cities, multiple climate zones AND more importantly, your income will easily afford you an international flight anywhere in the world and things will be extremely affordable once you get there with CA income in hand. Yes, my brother can get on a train and ride into France but I can as easily buy a ticket and fly there... and then I can also fly to Hawaii, Mexico, Caribbean, Japan, something he absolutely could not afford
work/life balance in the US entirely depends on your employer, yes it's not legally mandated, doesn't mean that top employees don't get unlimited PTO and flexible working hours and remote work arrangements
hudibrastic@reddit
Listen to those words of wisdom
Blackfish69@reddit
I think you're basically asking for a bashing with this post. Ill play though... Absolutely makes no sense to move to dreary NL to make a fraction of your salary even post tax in Cali. Saving 10-20% of your income in Cali is lightyears better than 10-20% in NL.... Plus all the lifestyle and family proximity.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I’m not gonna entertain this view of people. I’m not tolling but looking for advice. We can’t be know it alls like you
Blackfish69@reddit
get help. i just answered your question.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
Thanks
hudibrastic@reddit
Yes, the guy is basically asking “What is better: be rich and happy, or poor and sad?”
Modullah@reddit
U.s. and it’s not even close given your situation. It’s just four years and you live in California. You will be fine. Try to increase your earnings so you can retire earlier(per your 12-15 track.)
GlobeTrekking@reddit
I will add that I was a single engineer in the Bay Area and I was able to live frugally ... it's when you have a family, want to buy a place, etc. when it gets really expensive but a single guy can get by much more cheaply
Modullah@reddit
Exactly, can have room mates for a year or two. Rent a garage out (lots of folks renovate them nicely). If you're single in California you can be very frugal and follow the money(job opportunities).
modijk@reddit
Another pro: healthcare is way cheaper in NL (mandatory insurance for about 150 euro per month, after that healthcare is free, except for the first 500-1000 euro per year that you have to pay out of pocket.
Language should not be a very big problem. People that are giving you a hard time for not speaking Dutch typically are not worth your time (I am Dutch myself), bad almost everyone speaks English.
badtux99@reddit
If you're employed you will not be paying much if anything for health insurance in the US. I am paying $60/month for the absolute best gold plated plan offered by my employer. That's it. Where healthcare in America becomes unaffordable is if you become unemployed and have to pay for it yourself. Or when you retire and Part B, Part D, and MediGap suck you dry.
Of course, depending upon your health insurance company it can be difficult to actually use that healthcare. I am using Kaiser-Permanente. It is sort of like using the NHS in the UK, but at least you won't go bankrupt getting healthcare through them.
modijk@reddit
Is 100% of the expenses covered in the US by insurers? I understood it is 80-90% only.
badtux99@reddit
In the good policies like mine, all you pay is the deductible. I had surgery that cost $60k, all I paid was the $80 deductible. Well, and $20 for a prescription medicine.
wagdog1970@reddit
Shhh, this is Reddit and everyone knows you will go bankrupt if you do much as catch a cold in the US. It’s just a weird coincidence that 320 million people somehow find a way to survive (and even actually thrive) despite the cost of healthcare.
hashtagashtab@reddit
320 million people are not thriving in the US, trust me. I worked in health insurance, both private and Medicaid, and saw plenty of people in with enormous medical debt from being previously uninsured or using their insurance “wrong” (like having a medical emergency out of network in a state without surprise billing protections).
ctzn2000@reddit
40% of bankruptcies filed in the US are because of medical debt.
badtux99@reddit
Where you go bankrupt is when you are too sick to work and exhaust your sick leave. Unpaid FMLA leave doesn't pay the bills, the US is one of the only countries that has unpaid long term medical sick leave, and when you exhaust your FMLA you get fired (again, the US is one of the only countries where it is legal to fire someone for being sick, with certain limits). One of my friends had a wife dying of a deadly organ disease. Her supervisor kept her on staff for as long as possible to keep the medical benefits active, but when she went into hospice and was no longer able to work, that was the end of the health insurance. My friend is now living in a tiny home with his dog because the medical industry took everything -- his wife, his house, his retirement savings, everything. But that's America. He survived, but he's not having a fun time of it.
wagdog1970@reddit
I’m curious, did she apply for disability? Medicaid and SocialSecurity disability exists for exactly those types of situations. You won’t get rich, but you have government provided medical insurance and won’t starve. Of course you have to exhaust your savings before you are eligible for Medicaid.
badtux99@reddit
Social Security disability requires you wait a year. She did not last a year.
Medicaid is why her survivor has no assets left.
werchoosingusername@reddit
Send PM
LukasJackson67@reddit
I think op is overstating the political divisiness that he would encounter living in the Bay Area.
thebrackenrecord912@reddit
No. We took a 30% paycut. And it was worth it, but barely.
i-love-freesias@reddit
Lower income will mean a lower social security retirement benefit.
hudibrastic@reddit
Retire at 45? Forget the Netherlands then, there is only one possible option out of the two
realmozzarella22@reddit
Just stay in the US. If the country falls apart then you can move.
toosemakesthings@reddit
This is a ridiculous question. Obviously go to NL and send my CV to your US employer for their next H1B sponsorship ;)
LDNcorgi@reddit
I think this question is more about where you are from and what your values are.
Do you value retiring early moreso than living in a place you love and want to settle in? Then make the decision based on money.
However, you should probably consider what the NL opportunity will give you outside of money - could you get citizenship if you stayed a certain amount of time on the visa through work? Is that something you want? Could that afford you different opportunities in the future?
Personally, I would reconsider my early retirement if that meant I got EU citizenship and freedom to settle and work anywhere in the EU. But that's based on my values.
eattheambrosia@reddit
Yeah, well I'm a BATHTUB.
cheesecow007@reddit
Barely able to have the utmost basics
Gardium90@reddit
Oh damn. I'd never guessed that one. But makes sense
VictoriaSobocki@reddit
🫠
Gardium90@reddit
Lol.
Single Income No Kids 😂
ParadisHeights@reddit
I think you would have a better quality of life in California as a high earner assuming work hours are the same. USA is a great place to be rich, but a bad place to be if you’re not.
eurogamer206@reddit
Husband and I both relocated to Amsterdam two years ago, taking huge pay cuts. But not as big of a cut as yours. With the 5-year 30% ruling (it might be lower in coming years), there are indeed tax breaks. But housing is very expensive and competitive, at least in major cities. Owning a car is cost-prohibitive and train fare is very expensive. (For instance it costs me €30 for a round-trip train ticket only 30 mins way from Amsterdam to Utrecht.) But I don’t own a car and get around mostly by bicycle. That said, there is no sales tax and tipping culture is not as bad (or expected) as the U.S. so you can save money in other ways. If your goal is to retire early, I would talk to a financial advisor. I don’t think with that pay cut you’ll be on track, sadly. With the 30% ruling I estimate your take home to be around €4k per month. And without (after 5 years are up), it’ll be only €3k after taxes.
FishFeet500@reddit
With all due respect, amsterdam to utrecht, without a discount of any kind or subscription is 8.80 one way, and 17 euro return so where you’re getting 30 from is a mystery to me.
eurogamer206@reddit
From Centraal station maybe. I’m talking about from where I live. Other places charge by zone whereas NL adds more cost based on actual number of stops. Which is absurd.
xinit@reddit
"relocated to Amsterdam"
I understand why they made that guess.
eurogamer206@reddit
Huh? I’m in Amsterdam. But not everyone lives right by central station.
ProbablyBsPlzIgnore@reddit
In NL that’s a decent income, but not retire early kind of money. I enjoyed living and working there, but your last paragraph about the climate is a red flag. You’re going to hate the 6 months of gloom and rain there. My spouse was absolutely miserable. If you weren’t giving up a green card and a high income for it, I’d say give it a try, but it sounds like there’s no going back if you do.
Don’t move because of elections, it’s not our business how the locals choose to run their country, and you’ll find the same right wing populist surge going on in Europe. This move to the populist right you see here today happened in NL in the early 2000s and is still going on.
Expats who move because of positive reasons tend to be successful. Eager for the experience, visited a country and fell in love with it, an amazing job offer, stuff like that. Expats who move because of negative reasons will have a hard time.
WilliamTells26@reddit
Europe = more time US = more money
Which is more important to you?
mandance17@reddit
US is better
y3rik@reddit
78k is not a lot in NL
https://thetax.nl/?startFrom=Year&selectedYear=2024&older=false&allowance=false&socialSecurity=true&hoursAmount=40&ruling=false&income=78000
That's only 4k take-home and apartments and depending where you live apartments are expensive! I did this move, I would stick with 170 in the bay area.
Fungled@reddit
You are mad to give up green card / citizenship track. Get off that and chances of getting back on are close enough to zero. The world is not ending. You can retire to Europe if you wish. Frankly in a few decades we’ll be desperate for your money
Sisyphuss5MinBreak@reddit
Have you visited the Netherlands? Do you know if your even like being there?
Personally, I love the Netherlands and would easily select it if I were presented your two options, but our lives might be very different. I plan on working for a long time but want to enjoy my life without having to wait for retirement. I like to bike everywhere and dislike driving. I love being in an international setting. California, excluding the heart of San Francisco, is multi-ethnic but not international.
The things I miss from California are 1) better food options and 2) better nature, and 2) distance to family. Personally, I'm willing to make that trade.
ForeignLong6211@reddit (OP)
I’ve visited and had short assignments there. No green card yet. Still in process. If I move, I will abandon pursuing green card and pursue Dutch permanent residency instead
invitrium@reddit
You'll need to learn and pass Dutch language exams to get the PR.
Stuffthatpig@reddit
It's not that hard
invitrium@reddit
Just making her aware as there are no exams for US GC.
Stuffthatpig@reddit
That's fair. And they already speak the lingua franca.
jupacaluba@reddit
Hard truth is that NL does not want people to FIRE.
Taxation here is ridiculous on your total net worth (that includes savings, investments, real estate). If your net worth is above 57k euros (which let’s be honest, it’s not a lot, you’re gonna be taxed on it.
I moved here for my job, I’m not gonna say I regret it because it’s a great country to live overall, but if your goal is building wealth, there are much more friendlier places.
Cherry on top is the housing crisis.
bel2man@reddit
Think I already saw your post somewhere.
Nope - that wage in NL is too small. Tax in California and NL is almost the same. Dont accept anything below 120kEUR in NL as minimum
BonsaiBobby@reddit
You haven't followed Dutch politics? It's in complete chaos and the government can fall any moment.
Buying is much easier than the rental market. With a fixed contract and 78k you can get a mortgage up around 350k. Apartments in Amsterdam costs around 8-10k per square meter, near Eindhoven they are cheaper. Payed interest can be deducted from the taxes so buying is the way to go.
If you want to be FIRE in 15 years, I would just stay in the US and live frugally and invest every penny saved.
nomiinomii@reddit
What's your current nationality and is your green card application part of eb1/eb2 etc. If you're Indian or similarly endless green card queue then it's worth going to Europe.
Secondly, how much do you value the last few years of your parents life and spending it closer to them. If you move away, you'll see them maybe 1-2 times a year max, which at this age might mean you'll see them 10-20 times total ever again. Is that okay?
badtux99@reddit
170K pay in the Bay Area will get you a good apartment within reasonable commute distance of work for $3,500/month. That's $42K of your income going to the apartment. Your marginal rate on that 170K will be around 25% once you add in Social Security taxes, which is cheap compared to the NL rate. You *should* be able to shove a bunch of money into savings in the Bay Area each month despite $42K going to rent.
€72k annual pay in the NL is not going to come anywhere near the amount of money that you can shove into savings with a $170K salary in the SF Bay area. Even with the higher cost of living you should be able to easily shovel $3K/month into savings, then into a stock index mutual fund that can return 8% or better over the course of 12-15 years. You can easily end up with $1M in that mutual fund, which will just compound from there.
As for politics, the Bay Area is sort of this weird bubble right now. Not exactly liberal, but lacking the nativism / racism / bigotry of right wing movements elsewhere. I feel you will be as welcome there as in the Netherlands. But it's definitely a place to make money, not a place you want to retire to.
FIlifesomeday@reddit
Bay Area is expensive for a reason, it’s beautiful, good weather, can travel to awesome places near by. I’d stay for a bit then move when ready to settle down.
monbabie@reddit
I’d recommend keep working in the U.S. with the aim for citizenship, and then look again for positions in the NL. Save money like crazy now and move later. The jobs will likely still be there. If you planned to have kids then I’d recommend moving earlier but if you plan to retire early, make more money in the U.S. first.
PanickyFool@reddit
God no. SINK? Stay in USA.
BTW here in NL a lot of the policies being pushed forward in USA are already in place. No all, but many.
EnjoyerOfPolitics@reddit
As someone from NL, I would say mobility wise its perfect, not to mention benefits of EU regulation on quality of life, however, 78k is frankly on the low end, especially knowing that you get the 30% ruling.
Housing right now is an absolute shitshow regardless if you are in Amsterdam or Groningen.
hobomaniaking@reddit
No, in your case it is obviously not worth it. I live in Amsterdam. 78k€ is peanuts here. It is 6000€ bruto per month, they don’t take into consideration the 8% vacation money. So you would need to find an apartment for 2000€ in Amsterdam. This is near to impossible and even if you do you’d be competing with a lot of others. Being far from your closest family is too hard especially when they are sick. Work life balance over here is much better indeed, but it can also be in the US as well. You’d just have to settle for the same salary level as Amsterdam and work a bit less. No?
Geejay-101@reddit
Its not all about cost of living and salary.
The most important consideration is where your career will prosper best? If you are successful in your job you will inevitably go to the appropriate pay level, irrespectively of where you live.
CarelessInevitable26@reddit
Dutch PR / passport may take 10 years under new rules.
I think this move will certainly delay your retirement but 87k is enough to not struggle in NL. Especially while you are on the 30% rule and if you don’t live in Amsterdam
Stuffthatpig@reddit
They probably will be going to Eindhoven though and can deal with the housing madness there.
New-Perspective8617@reddit
Do you intend to move there and stay forever? If so, the salary would probably be fine and you’ll just retire there with a lower cost of living. If you want to retire in the US it would be super hard to have enough money saved with that salary to come back to the US later, I assume. Depends on how much you have saved and what age you want to retire. Also depends on your family ties here and if you CAN come back if immigration is an issue
Grouchy_Tennis9195@reddit
Ask yourself, even though you may be able to afford to live in NL for $78k, would you still be able to retire when you want without the extra $90,000 income?
chardrizard@reddit
I live in NL, it’s good place but it’s not FIRE friendly.
You’re most likely at your ceiling, maybe up to 100k+ at most unless you’re aiming execs position which is rarely if you don’t speak local language.
Gotta calculate your current NW and compare if you wanna come here, I personally love it but I have got spouse and in laws here..
HarvestWinter@reddit
If you have the option for a US salary, I'm not sure why you'd settle for a Dutch one, though the tax breaks in the Netherlands will help you the first few years. If you are looking at a long term move though, then that's only a temporary reprieve.
Keep in mind that if the current right wing government can manage to not collapse (which could go either way), the wait for citizenship is planned to go up to 10 years, if that influences your decision either way.