How do you pay your workmen and have I been had on?
Posted by BigLittlePerson@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 73 comments
In a bit of a situation which is giving me major anxiety thinking about. Workmen quoted me for a job to renovate the kitchen. All good I was happy with the price. I asked them if they wanted half the money now and half on completion. They wanted it instalments throughout. Ok again no problem (maybe naively?). Throughout the work I’ve had phone calls from trades shops asking me to pay for materials. I’ve asked what it’s for and they’ve gave me a rundown so I physically went in and paid for the materials. I assumed materials were included in the initial quote but anyway. It’s come to near the end of the project and I’ve paid nearly a grand over the quote taking into consideration the materials which I paid for separately. I was also told 2 guys would be working the job but it’s been mostly 1 guy and taken longer. I’ve told him I’m not paying anymore because I‘ve paid over what he quoted me plus even more in materials. He’s now saying I owe him for this and that at the start which as far as I’m aware - I paid already with the first instalment. Feel like I’m being had on a bit now that time and money has gone well over….there were no major issues or setbacks other than an inside pipe was old and needed replaced which took a couple hours in a morning to resolve.
ElCunto1999@reddit
Sounds like he's skint and owes money to suppliers.
kwaklog@reddit
My builder's getting paid at the end of each week, but the job's going to be lasting months.
He bought all the gear but the kitchen and invoices me. It's all earned above board so far, he also did our friend's extension so we're fairly comfortable with his standards
TheInevitableTruth@reddit
When agreeing work to be done, especially large projects, a full total price must be agreed and payment scheme is arranged in advance with a legal document drawn up. It's common place to have a "payment schedule". That way you're not faced with an unmanageable invoice at the end and also they "don't have the money to cash and run". In the legal agreement of the payment schedule, each step must be of satisfactory standard and should it not, not only can you terminate their involvement in the project, but they forfeit and funds to "put it right, as agreed in the original quotation and planning stages"
UCthrowaway78404@reddit
I feel like the cost of the materials should have been clearly stated in the quote.
I am surprised a builders merchant was happy to provide credit to someone without seeing them. I wonder if OP was for guarantor.
Tupsarratum@reddit
I use a small firm and basic standard materials/equipment (white paint for undercoat, tile grout, screws, wires) are provided by them. Then anything that is needed in quantity or involves any level of choice - paint, tiles, lights and also wall sockets and light switches I buy. They will sometimes buy things for me and I pay immediately but that is kinda a favour because I don't have a car so buying eg a door is difficult for me. (well buying it is easy, getting it home is tricky but they do it in their van.)
West_Guarantee284@reddit
It's odd that they'd source the parts then ask you to pay direct. Either you source them and buy and the workers charge just for labour. Or they quote for supplies, including their markup for sourcing, and you pay them. They're potentially doing themselves out of commission.
AJMurphy_1986@reddit
I usually pay in full when the jobs done........
TheBestBigAl@reddit
And I've never had to pay suppliers directly for materials, unless I had already explained to the tradies that I'd be sourcing specific items.
Pinetrees1990@reddit
I've done this quite a few times.
It's for when a sole trader doesn't want to be VAT registered.
BassplayerDad@reddit
Or has bad trade credit..just saying.
Good luck
Kapika96@reddit
IIRC they have to be VAT registered if their income is over a certain amount (60k?).
So if they're not, then they're either pretty small, or very dodgy.
Pinetrees1990@reddit
Yo be fair it's £90k and if your paying for your own materials ( so paying £90k for the labour) that's a great wage.
RoboGideon@reddit
85k until recently (source: I'm VAT registered)
Liam_anon@reddit
It’s 95k now
Pinetrees1990@reddit
£90k *
DEADB33F@reddit
Yeah this is normal when the contractor isn't VAT registered.
And even if they are it can be good for piece of mind as you know they aren't skimping on things or inflating the materials prices.
littletorreira@reddit
I have done with one guy I like. He does good work and usually I just pop over to Wickes or the Building Supplier with him in his van. Pay for everything and we drive them back. But I only do it with him because he's a top bloke.
GlasgowGunner@reddit
The only time I’ve ever done it was with a painter and this was agreed in advance.
ExcellentPut191@reddit
Yeah to be fair, you need to have this card in your pocket to encourage them to finish the job. Otherwise they have the card in their pocket, that says they will only finish the job if you give them the money they're asking for
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
Yeah I wish I had now…more fool me..
RevolutionaryPace167@reddit
And with receipts and a pay brakedown
Peter_gggg@reddit
It's whatever you agreed. Materials are typically paid directly you
My decorator quoted 4 days at a day rate, with me providing all materials
The tiler who did my kitchen, quoted a fixed price, completed in 2 weeks, with me providing g the tiles, and thedesign
EbonyNivory19@reddit
I thought I was having a stroke towards the end of that comment
Peter_gggg@reddit
Tweaked. Thx 😎
Sidebottle@reddit
Really depends on what was actually agreed.
As a rule I pay one price. I don't do hourly, I don't pay for 'materials'.
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
Yeah this is what I’ll do in future. This probably sounds sexist but I wish I had a man in the house because I doubt this would have happened…I just feel so walked over and stupid.
MaxOutchea@reddit
Im a man and I’ve had the wool pulled over my eyes by tradesmen. Could still happen if you had a man in the house. Only way to avoid it would be to be clued up what the work required costs and having good tradesmen who aren’t there to rob you blind.
My general rule of thumb is to not be too relaxed with tradesmen. The friendlier you try to be, the bigger ride you get taken for. Other than that, be crystal clear in communication and have a paper trail, even if it’s just your own notes that you present to the tradesmen while discussing.
DEADB33F@reddit
My rule is to only use tradesmen that have come from personal recommendations from friends & relatives. Ideally ones that are busy enough that they never need to advertise (always a good sign).
And I'm always happy to recommend them to others when they've done a good job.
Normally the busier they are and longer I have to wait the better. So I don't mind waiting, even if it's months and months.
Alternative_Week_117@reddit
I'm a man and I wish we had that privilege, but we get ripped off too. I'm a pretty big burly guy and I'm probably at 50% with having good tradesmen and rip-off merchants, if that makes you feel any better.
Bangin_headache@reddit
Carpenter here. (I also fit kitchens)
The price that I quote is always - total including labour and materials-
If it's a bigger job that is going to take a couple of weeks or more, and I've bought materials from more than one supplier that would need paying at different times, I would sometimes ask the customer to pay in 3 installments.
The first as a deposit. the second halfway through, and the third on completion, once the customer has stated that they're happy with the end result.
Materials are never added on top of my quote unless they have been discussed as extras by the customer.
zephyrthewonderdog@reddit
Just over £3k for a kitchen is fairly cheap to be honest. What is the finished job like? If it’s decent I would just pay up.
stickyjam@reddit
It's got some real potential to all be a poor communication / quote detail problem instead of the guy being totally scammy.
PetrolPumpNo3@reddit
I have NEVER heard of the customer having to physically go in and pay the builders merchants for materials in this way. Were they asking you to pay for materials that had already been received or to pay in advance for materials the builders have requested?
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
So he went in for it put it on his account, gave them my number (which I didn’t even know about) then they phoned me and said I owed them money. At first I was like no I don’t? Then they explained for what and I went in to pay.
glorybeef@reddit
I simply would never pay someone asking me for money over the phone too. The fitters should take the receipt and give it to you in person at the very least to say this needs paying
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
I didnt pay over the phone I went in and asked for the receipts it was pipes etc. It was a big brand hardware store - still didn’t feel quite right though…
PetrolPumpNo3@reddit
Whose name did you give when you went in? Yours or the builders?
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
It was in his name. The calls felt quite accusatory though as if I personally had taken something without paying.
seriousrikk@reddit
It’s a shame you didn’t ask this question when it first happened.
Because this is not normal, not even close.
Your builder is dodgy AF
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
I know - I’m absolutely kicking myself. I’ve just had a baby, I’m on my own and I just wanted it all done so feel like that was also something he’s probably taken advantage of.
HistoricalFrosting18@reddit
I’m not a trades but this is fishy - most trades have accounts to get a trade discount. Also, legally speaking, you can’t buy something and nominate someone else to pay - that’s not how it works.
PetrolPumpNo3@reddit
Did you confirm the phonecall when you went in to pay? Is this a proper builders merchant or a small business?
THX39652@reddit
You shouldn’t be paying suppliers unless that’s what was agreed at the start. Was your quote just for labour? If it was an all in quote then you pay as the job progresses. I’ve just had work done, paid in 4 lots, 30% at the start etc and then the final 10% at sign off once the job is complete. What was agreed?
dingo_deano@reddit
I have never asked customer to supply materials.
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
I didn’t think this was the norm to pay for materials separate but I have also never had a job done this big except my garden.
Menulem@reddit
It's a way to dodge some tax and do less work on the books, had a builder near us that had the customer pay his lads direct and pay for materials so hardly anything went through his books.
JLB_cleanshirt@reddit
I think it depends on the job. I had a kitchen retiled and the guy agreed that I would buy whatever tiles I wanted and he just gave a quote for his time.
Ry_White@reddit
At the end, no materials, no fucking about.
You’re being done over.
YSOSEXI@reddit
If it's a quote, then pay the quoted fee, and the cost for replacing the failing pipework. If they supplied an estimate, (which I do on larger jobs, refurbs etc) they can go over, as we don't know what we're going to find on site during the ripout.
RevolutionaryPace167@reddit
What were you quoted for? You should have a brakedown sheet with the contract
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
There wasn’t a contract just messages back and forth. When he gave me a quote it basically said: 3.2k for 10 days work with 2 men on site for fitting of kitchen small jobs and painting. I asked if it included plumbing in the sink etc and he said yes.
DerpDerpDerp78910@reddit
Were you happy with the price he quoted anyway?
Doesn’t really matter who’s there as long as the price doesn’t change.
RevolutionaryPace167@reddit
Print off those messages. As a reference, incase there's any dispute. But moving forward, get a proper contract, and if you ever have to pay upfront for materials, buy them yourself. Cheaper toi. Ypu use their discount card at the yard. Enjoy your new kitchen when it's up and running
neenoonee@reddit
Did you get a written quote? Itemised with what was included?
takesthebiscuit@reddit
When I had a bathroom fitted some years ago I was able to snag a bunch of bathroom furniture from sale, bath, sink shower etc
The quote was down the labour to fit and that the plumber will provide any parts required to fit the parts that I bought
So it was all clear what I was to provide and what the fitter would provide
PatserGrey@reddit
We had a wall demolished and kitchen done back a few years ago. It was a Howdens kitchen linked to their account. To my surprise they didn't ask for a penny until it was complete. No booking deposit or anything. They did a cracking job too.
Elster-@reddit
Instalments is fairly normal, however if it is quoted and different it sounds like something is not quite adding up.
The idea of a quote is to protect both parties and they have a payment schedule and also know what they are getting.
Paying direct for materials doesn’t mean you are being scammed, just a small operator and only making money on labour, unless they are getting a pre arranged discount and adding it onto their account at the suppliers.
The problem sounds like there hasn’t been an open explanation about the process and you feel like you are being scammed.
PetrolPumpNo3@reddit
The builders put it on their account and the builders merchant called the customer telling them that they owed them money. I can't imagine any builders merchant calling the customer, the customer is nothing to do with them, it's not their account.
Elster-@reddit
If it is a cash account or a small account then they can get anyone in to pay with it.
Some merchants will allow a retail price to be paid and then a percentage goes onto account for the builder.
PetrolPumpNo3@reddit
Of course they can get anybody in to pay for it but no builders merchant is going to call an account holder's customer and tell them they owe them money.
The builder presenting an invoice that either needs to be paid in advance or to settle the account is plausible. A merchant calling some random person saying 'you owe us such and such' is just not going to happen which is why I suggested OP go to the merchants immediately to make sure an account hasn't been set up in his name.
hez9123@reddit
I’ve done all sorts, including roughly what you’ve done, but it depends if they are known to me. If it were eg a kitchen where the job was “supply, fit and make good a new kitchen” and they wanted me to pay for the kitchen units part, I’d be happy to do this upfront. I’ve done similar recently with a 4 metre lintel that my builders wanted me to pay for up front. You’ve got to be quite specific, but equally, it is a sign of a really good tradesman that they will be clear and specific with you about eg how many courses of bricks they will lay, what type of brick they will use, etc. It sounds to me like your greatest issue is that, materials aside, you have paid more for days, reached your £1000 agreement and the job is not finished and it is not on time. I’d say get the gaffer back, note down their number plates, etc and get them to finish the job. You may need to sit on their belly to get them to finish, by the sounds of things. It does sound a bit like you’ve been had though, sorry to hear it. It’s very unpleasant when you let people into your house - it’s second only to burglary in theft terms.
cognitiveglitch@reddit
These only people I've paid during the job have been when I've hired labourers directly and they evidently lived hand-to-mouth. I was happy, they got paid and worked hard.
For building projects I wouldn't want to hand over money until the end - keep an incentive going.
Jolly_Constant_4913@reddit
My next advice to you is get a head strong friend who will beharder for them to push around. My friend had an accident right as their garden was being done.
The guy quoted for a digger and men. Came to it and he was alone. Left the digger in front over the bank holiday weekend, did not work in that time and had to return it to the hiring place. Another friend jumped in, sent them home, cut their losses and got another company in.
Builder seemed happy because he'd completely overestimated his abilities. Once the digger was gone he tried to do a diggers hand by job and lift all these heavy 40kg landscape rocks
jojobarto@reddit
Really depends on what the quote said, it's better for both parties to have a detailed quote in place that sets out exactly what it covers.
That said, in my experience I usually pay for the materials on top of the quote for their labour. When materials, fixtures etc are included it is normally when you get the job from a company that sells e.g. kitchen fittings as well as providing a fitting service. And in that case you will know for sure that you are paying for the materials as you will have been quoted for them.
What was said at the start of the job about what was included in the price?
BigLittlePerson@reddit (OP)
It basically said the cost of the work for 10 days with 2 men working includes fitting of the kitchen, painting and odd jobs. I asked him if it included plumbing in of the sink etc which he said yes. I had a call from the materials shop totally out the blue because he never told me he was giving them my number or that I had to pay them direct. They were just like ‘you owe us money’ which I needed them to explain because obviously I hadn’t been there and didn’t know what they were on about initially
jojobarto@reddit
It sounds like materials weren't included in the quote. Though, to be fair to you, it would have been good practice from the fitters to have made it clear that this was the case at the start.
At best it's a bit sloppy from them, at worst a bit sneaky (e.g. if they knew that you only wanted to spend a certain amount and the materials would bring the cost above that).
I still reckon you are on the hook for the cost of materials.
ozz9955@reddit
I understand some trades are asking for materials to be paid separately to their labour for a few reasons - but this should be pretty clear up front.
I have to ask, why would you have allowed the works to continue without a clear understanding of what's included, and a payment schedule? Half way through a job, still thinking materials are included only to find out they're not? Work would stop, and a discussion would be had.
As an aside, going over a quote is sometimes unavoidable, but again, you should be made well aware of that as the job continues, not randomly and unexplained at the end.
wildOldcheesecake@reddit
So you have a written agreement of sorts? Or a contract? I’d want to ahold of that if I were you. We had our kitchen renovated and didn’t pay for materials or until the job has been completed.
IdentifiesAsGreenPud@reddit
Makes you wonder if the material you paid for even ended up in your kitchen.
Ill_Construction6138@reddit
I've only done it a couple of times for existing customers but I'll always include it in the quote as a labour + materials cost up front when I have done it that way I wouldn't throw the materials on top as a surprise.
Doesn't sound very professional
bigvernuk@reddit
Buyer beware
OnlyTone1083@reddit
Have you tried citizens advice? Doesn't sound like good practice, they could advise you on whether to report to trading standards.
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