the future of bcachefs in the kernel is uncertain
Posted by purpleidea@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 45 comments
Posted by purpleidea@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 45 comments
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
Based on that, Overstreet needs a mentor he trusts because he has poor communication skills, from what I can see.
MrAlagos@reddit
If that's the metric then he should get along well with other famed poor communicator Linus Torvalds.
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
That is a ridiculous comment. Linus Torvalds leads one of the most innovative co-operative endeavours in human history, from being on his own to now. They are not in the same galaxy when it comes to communications skills, let alone the ability to reflect and adapt when someone tells you that things are not working so well.
Crazyachmed@reddit
Linus since the last couple of years, yes. Linus before that on the mailing list? Ooooooh, fanboy, you are very wrong.
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
It was more than a couple of years ago, and thanks for pointing out again what I already said.
Crazyachmed@reddit
Just that I completely disagree with you. He needed the kick from the CoC to behave.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
And was that change really for the better? The abrasive ambience on that time's LKML was well known, and people adapted. It allowed technical discussions to be done without the fear of accidentally using a wrong word, and dislike to be uttered in clear (though vulgar) terms. (The more vulgar the response, the more unacceptable the patch was, so it was easy to gauge how bad the submission really was.) And especially Linus's vulgar replies often went viral, not to call him out, but because people actually liked them.
Now everything on LKML (and in other large FOSS projects) seems to be dominated by US-American Big Tech culture: always think positive, never complain about anything, and avoid all argument. How can technical discussions be done in such an environment?
(And please do not assume anything wrong about my political orientation from the above. It is not only rightwing chauvinists who are unhappy with the way CoC enforcement is going in FOSS.)
jahjogasan@reddit
It's starting to become so bad that even mild corrections are being subject to warnings and bans. It's getting to the point where just disagreeing is an act of aggression. I received a warning on Ubuntu's discourse for pointing out a factual mistake by one of the moderators/developers.
So to answer /u/Crazyachmed, no, it's absolutely not getting better.
Crazyachmed@reddit
Yes.
Don't confuse the ability to express oneself with the emotional competence of a basement dweller.
100GHz@reddit
So, it's not the ability to cure cancer by crafting a mRNA vaccine then ?
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
Maybe not, but I know people who are working on that and quite a few of them use Linux.
wildcarde815@reddit
you mean the guy that realized his behavior was a problem and went to classes to curb it when it was clear it was counter productive?
french_violist@reddit
At least he did something about it.
mdedetrich@reddit
Yes and it took him like 3 decades
Flash_Kat25@reddit
Better late than never, but it really was later than ideal. As head of the Linux project, there was a lot more pressure on Linus to do better. Ultimately, Kent doesn't have as large of a community to create that external pressure.
wildcarde815@reddit
I agree, it was good to see he did it and was willing to take a step back and admit there was an issue. But it was an issue for quiet some time before that that a subset of the community provided active cover and defense for.
pigeon768@reddit
At least they haven't murdered anybody.
purpleidea@reddit (OP)
There are many things Kent needs to surely improve, as do many others, but one important part from the article in particular that's worth discussing:
Linus, the Linux Foundation and its corporate members have an iron tight grip on the project, and we desperately need someone that has the individual user in mind, lest we end up with a compromised product.
EnUnLugarDeLaMancha@reddit
Linus has always had an iron tight grip on the project
Given the previous interactions between Linus and Kent, I can only guess what would have been his reaction. I suspect that getting the Linux Foundation involved is a way to make the decisions less personal
throttlemeister@reddit
Let's not pretend KO is the good guy here. He's got a history of not willing to follow the rules that come by being in mainline and has been warned on at least 3 different occasions by LT himself that if he doesn't play ball bcachefs will be removed from mainline all together. He himself is cause of a lot of frustration and irritation with a lot of the kernel maintainers and now he (again) complains about being singled out and being a victim when his actions blow up in his face. As they say, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. This is not something that stands on itself, this has been brewing under the surface and coming for a long time now due to his own behavior.
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
*chewing on 🍿 *
Very interesting, please continue
purpleidea@reddit (OP)
There are many things Kent needs to surely improve, as do many others, but one important part from the article in particular that's worth discussing:
Linus, the Linux Foundation and its corporate members have an iron tight grip on the project, and we desperately need someone that has the individual user in mind, lest we end up with a compromised product.
I fear Linux not moving to GPLv3 was the first good example of this power, since companies want to be able to lock down your hardware, and legally the GPLv3 would have prevented that. This is the locked bootloader thing that Android and so many other projects have.
SanityInAnarchy@reddit
Linux never had the "or later version" clause, and never had a CLA or any other agreement with every random contributor. Even if we wanted to make it GPLv3, how would you go about doing that?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
I think he could have made it happen if he had wanted it. It might have taken years, as code was recycled, but it could happen if it was wanted.
SanityInAnarchy@reddit
So, you could start to incorporate GPLv2-or-later code. But you could only do it in code that you could clearly identify as your own original code, and not a "derivative work," because derivative works need to follow the same license. So you'd basically be adding new files under GPLv2-or-later, there'd have to be a boundary between old files and new files where you can't ever move anything from one to the other, until eventually everything is rewritten and the old files can be deleted.
Except... when on earth would everything be rewritten across that boundary? If I'm coming in with a one-line fix to an existing function, I can either submit my one-line fix, or I can come up with a completely new function written from scratch, without looking at the original one (or at least different enough that no one could accuse me of doing that), all just so that maybe in a few decades the kernel can change licenses.
If you force the issue and just refuse to accept patches to any v2-only code, then the cost of maintenance goes up exponentially. If the current Linux maintainers did that, I have to imagine they'd lose to a fork that didn't do that. The fork would be quicker to develop, and would have all the corporate contributors that make up the overwhelming majority of kernel dev these days.
And that assumes everything will naturally be rewritten eventually. Yes, there's a lot of churn, but not everything changes. Take a look at fs/ext2/file.c, for example -- you'll find a mix of changes from earlier this year, changes from ten years ago, and changes from almost 20 years ago. (Before you ask, ext4 isn't really better.)It's hard to see why anyone would bother rewriting the
ext2_file_operations
struct from scratch, or what that would even mean -- aren't you building a brand-new filesystem at that point?You'd have a better chance of rewriting it all in rust. I'm serious! Rewriting one file at a time in Rust (or adding new stuff in Rust) can actually give you improvements over C right now, today. Relicensing one file at a time as "or later" doesn't give you any of the benefits of GPLv3 until the entire kernel migrates.
And then I'm left wondering: What benefits? It's already painful to try to get projects like Android to upstream their best changes. It's not like taking the kernel GPLv3 will force vendors to unlock all bootloaders. It'll just force them to stay on their v2-only fork, or switch to one of the BSDs. It's hard to see either of those options as a victory for either Linux or software freedom.
gehzumteufel@reddit
This just tells us you have no idea why anything happens. Linus articulated this by someone who asked. And it has nothing to do with any of that conspiracy theory garbage you're implying.
cloggedsink941@reddit
Can you show me one instance where linus said something against a gpl violation?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
what does that have to do with anything. Linus is really pragmatic.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
It could be correct that the linux foundation didn't want it, but as the sibling poster pointed out.. Linus himself was against it. Linus is super pragmatic. He's not your hero.
Drwankingstein@reddit
Not a surprise, COCs ruin everything, Kent's post was good. Kent can often come across as abrasive, but rarely does it ever really feel unwarrented. The saying it takes two to tango often applys to the spats, but kent seems to only be the one getting in shit for them.
intelminer@reddit
How did you possibly come away with that?
Drwankingstein@reddit
read the thread, you can start here, but read before if you wan't the further context. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/22a3da3d-6bca-48c6-a36f-382feb999374@linuxfoundation.org/
The situation was resolved, but here comes COC demanding a public appology, if this isn't peak COC buffonnery, I don't know what it is
rdqsr@reddit
https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/71b51954-15ba-4e73-baea-584463d43a5c@linuxfoundation.org/
Lmao. This reads like your primary teacher making you and another kid say a forced sorry to each other even though you both really don't mean it.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
yeah because almost nobody else is causing as much friction as he is.
Drwankingstein@reddit
so we should just ignore the people who start it and continue it? Why should others who break the rules not be punished but he should?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
If they have reports against them, then they would get punished. Heck Linus himself left the project for 3 months over this before there was even a CoC.
Drwankingstein@reddit
well, I hope they do get applied evenly, because it would be a shame if this, like with so many other projects, becomes nothing more then a hammer.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
It only gets applied when reports are made. If no reports are made, then no action is taken. The report counts handled by these committees tend to be public even if the reports are not (to protect those accused). So you can find out yourself.
Drwankingstein@reddit
the issue is that, in the ML that sparked this, michal was just as bad, saying kent was incapable of not being insane, yet no word on that being against TOS
autogyrophilia@reddit
Upstreaming was a mistake.
It has only introduced more work for him and kernel maintainers while failing to attract new developers or corporate backers
throwaway490215@reddit
I appreciate having the other side of the story.
It seems to me the CoC committee is a mess.
Having a code of conduct is a good thing. Having a committee that represents institutionalized authority (giving their members relative anonymity as they "act in behave of") is a fucking terrible idea.
Even if it was a set of perfect people with the best intentions, and had the guts, authority, and a magic 8 ball, to do the right thing for the long term it could still create problems.
Given that they're just mortal fallible people who are doing a job, the institution will be a detriment.
Maybe they should just split up between "PR committee" for the public coms and "counselors" for when all you need is someone to sit in as therapist/third-party when things get heated and have to be talked out in full detail.
primalbluewolf@reddit
So, another admission by Kent that its not ready for Kernel inclusion yet and should not have been mainlined.
BinkReddit@reddit
It's a long read and, regardless of what one might think about Mr. Overstreet, I enjoyed it.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
All he does is blame others for his poor communication skills. It's not a a good read.
ForceBlade@reddit
Ok