the future of bcachefs in the kernel is uncertain
Posted by purpleidea@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 149 comments
Posted by purpleidea@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 149 comments
throttlemeister@reddit
Let's not pretend KO is the good guy here. He's got a history of not willing to follow the rules that come by being in mainline and has been warned on at least 3 different occasions by LT himself that if he doesn't play ball bcachefs will be removed from mainline all together. He himself is cause of a lot of frustration and irritation with a lot of the kernel maintainers and now he (again) complains about being singled out and being a victim when his actions blow up in his face. As they say, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. This is not something that stands on itself, this has been brewing under the surface and coming for a long time now due to his own behavior.
forfuksake2323@reddit
Kent has brains and zero common sense. The guys a tool bag. It will be shame if he ruins what looked to be a great filesystem.
ninelore@reddit
Regardless who is bad, good, at fault or whatever: Intransparency of the CoC Board is, provided there was actually nothing but the mention by Linus, an actual problem. I remember the Vaxry-Freedesktop situation and from a neutral PoV Drew's posts back then read like a personal vendetta against Vaxry. Where is the Accountability?
Imho if you demand a public apology you should provide your opinion/judgement.
monkeynator@reddit
Drew's post might have made 1-2 Freedesktop people personally not like Vaxry, but the entire actual point was how Vaxry went against Freedesktop's rules (and not only CoC) and as such was kicked out as a result.
I really wish we could all stop thinking rules shouldn't be followed because "the rules are unfair waah".
If you wanna play you have to endure the rules of the game as they say.
ninelore@reddit
I do not want to question the why. I know he screwed up, just like KO.
My point is that the only thing publicly of which i know of is the Pull Request refusal. Let me know if there are other Statements by the Foundation now, but if they aren't this is not fair to either KO nor the general public.
I do not have the time to dig into a dozen LKML threads and so do many people, which is my second reason why i deem transparent public statements about such decisions necessary.
I mentioned the Vax situation because it had the very same problem
the_abortionat0r@reddit
It does not relate to this at all.
IsActuallyAPenguin@reddit
That's what they told me at first. Grizzly bears can't play hockey, they said. And, of course, they were right, there was an airbud clause in the official rules
And sure, maybe the lesson I SHOULD have learned is to not let a half starved grizzle in a custom made jersey onto the ice, but I'll be damned if it wasn't the most entertaining, depressing, and exhilarating five minutes of hockey the world has ever seen.
throttlemeister@reddit
If someone repeatedly acts in bad faith and then berates people for pointing out they are doing so and to follow the rules, at some point someone is going to say enough is enough. Often, since we're dealing with humans, that breaking point happens on an incident that would otherwise by itself not cause major waves. It's just the final drop in the bucket.
Creating a stink about an isolated incident while conveniently ignoring months of the behavior preceding it is in itself manipulative and a misrepresentation of facts. And in fact confirmation of the behavior.
Accountability goes both ways.
ninelore@reddit
I did not question the why, but how it was communicated
More here https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/s/HDXMz05kUF
Special_Diet5542@reddit
But Linus can break Coc by calling people idiots
the_abortionat0r@reddit
Nice what aboutism. Very helpful.
ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit
Why not just give maintainership to someone else and call it another name?
MdxBhmt@reddit
Who would volunteer for that?
ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit
Someone else who wanted to make sure it stayed in the kernel?
MdxBhmt@reddit
Well... you need someone with the time, expertise and will for that. That's a triple jackpot, which is why when someone like that comes along it's all in the interest of the community to keep them close by.
Unfortunately there aren't any either with KO's know-how, without the baggage, waiting to share this workload. Actually, if such person existed we would not been having this discussion.
Flash_Kat25@reddit
No one else is as remotely familiar with the code as Kent. Also I'm not sure why they would change the name. AFAIK it's not trademarked or anything, and even if maintainership is transferred to someone else, Kent would still be in the credits.
ImpossibleEdge4961@reddit
To maintain a distinction between the upstream version of the filesystem and Overstreet's version. To keep the name you need one of three things to happen:
1) Cooperation amongst anyone involved in the project. The OP is essentially them trying to salvage this option.
2) Overstreet just altruistically decided to rename the downstream project he started to be helpful. It seems like the OP is them saying they can't expect that to be the case.
3) Unilaterally renaming the filesystem so as to make no representations that whatever bcachefs is currently doing will be respected by the kernel.
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
*chewing on 🍿 *
Very interesting, please continue
holyrooster_@reddit
Go watch 'Brodie Robertson' on yt, he goes threw it in detail.
Drwankingstein@reddit
Not a surprise, COCs ruin everything, Kent's post was good. Kent can often come across as abrasive, but rarely does it ever really feel unwarrented. The saying it takes two to tango often applys to the spats, but kent seems to only be the one getting in shit for them.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
yeah because almost nobody else is causing as much friction as he is.
Drwankingstein@reddit
so we should just ignore the people who start it and continue it? Why should others who break the rules not be punished but he should?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
If they have reports against them, then they would get punished. Heck Linus himself left the project for 3 months over this before there was even a CoC.
Drwankingstein@reddit
well, I hope they do get applied evenly, because it would be a shame if this, like with so many other projects, becomes nothing more then a hammer.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
It only gets applied when reports are made. If no reports are made, then no action is taken. The report counts handled by these committees tend to be public even if the reports are not (to protect those accused). So you can find out yourself.
Drwankingstein@reddit
the issue is that, in the ML that sparked this, michal was just as bad, saying kent was incapable of not being insane, yet no word on that being against TOS
monkeynator@reddit
Okay you have to take a damn side here:
Either you are for proactively enforcing the CoC and as such we have permanent mods running around the ML citing bans on the spot.
Or we use a report system, where the responsibility is on the victim of said interaction that breaks CoC.
Hewlett-PackHard@reddit
If something is reported they need to look at the context of what was reported not just put on blinders and look at the reported post in a vacuum.
monkeynator@reddit
This isn't what the person I responded to said, they said that it's unfair Michal doesn't get punished for engaging badly with Kent, but that is because Kent didn't/haven't reported Michal for a CoC violation.
I.e. they asked for proactive enforcement but wouldn't say so.
Hewlett-PackHard@reddit
You missed my point. It shouldn't matter which particular person or post was reported, the moderators should have looked at the whole thread and the behavior in it.
monkeynator@reddit
I explained why I responded to that particular person, because it has nothing to do with your point.
Because I don't know how the Linux CoC committee investigates these things neither do I think you know this, so I don't care about arguing over how they should do it when it's something we both most likely is not aware is being applied in the Linux CoC committee.
Drwankingstein@reddit
Whether or not it's proactive, or done in reports, it should be done evenly, Kent was "found to have violated COC" despite not even being the one to sling mud first.
monkeynator@reddit
This says nothing, either you want proactive measures to enforce the CoC or you want it to only be enforced if there's a report.
So you haven't answered the question and is only talking about fairness which is not the issue at play here as the previous person explained to you.
Drwankingstein@reddit
No, as I said, A COC needs to be fair, which means it needs to take context into consideration which they very much didn't do so. whether out of incompetence or malice is irrelevant.
It doesn't matter if someone reports michal. The context is right there in the comment above, which they also quoted. The coc is either being maliciouslly applied, or being incompetently applied, Both are bad.
monkeynator@reddit
In what specific way is the COC not fair?
Again if nobody has reported Michal then how can you be so sure it's "unfair"?
You can't cry about "unfair COC treatment" but don't want proactive measures to enforce it.
Either you have to suck it up that it's up to the victim to file a report and as such certain incidents will go by OR you want global mods policing the whole LKML, there is no in-between.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
but again, that requires a report to the CoC committee!
Drwankingstein@reddit
The COC person in question literally responded to a thread where kent was directly insulted first, kent called an idea insane because there was allegedly some previous talk, kent couldn't find it, asked for it multiple times now, and people have refused to provide it even after kent has said he couldn't find it, michal then in response called kent directly insane, kent told michal to get his head checked.
Why was disciplianry action taken against kent, but not michal despite michal clearly violating the COC by directly calling kent insane first?
What is required is proof, and said proof was directly posted here.
https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/22a3da3d-6bca-48c6-a36f-382feb999374@linuxfoundation.org/
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
Then somebody should report him which is what i said already!
Drwankingstein@reddit
you are missing the point.
The COC is completely ignoring the contenxt of given report, which means it's intentionally being weaponized against kent, or they believe michal didn't violate the COC despite him spewing insults which is massively contradictory. Report or not.
COC MUST judge given context for it to be effective, which they have failed to do so.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
How about get a report filed against michal.. That's what i keep saying.
Drwankingstein@reddit
you clearly don't understand the issue here...
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
I dunno, you're saying that this michal is abusing his authority and nothing is happening. Seems pretty clear.
Drwankingstein@reddit
I have no idea how on earth you thought I said that, but I highly suggest you reread it because that is not what I said.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
well kent's behavior has taken place over the course of months at this point, so that makes sense.
MdxBhmt@reddit
Are you saying that this interaction:
means that MH directly called kent insane, and that MH is the one that went overboard first?
Drwankingstein@reddit
To be clear, I'm not excusing Kent's previous actions. nor am I excusing his reaction to it. What he did was still wrong. However, Michal escalated it by quite a large degree.
I'm not saying that Kent shouldn't have gotten in trouble regardless of what happened, what I'm saying is that the COC team is unfairly applying punishment despite the fact that Michal is the one who greatly escalated the situation by going to direct insults.
Also, it's important to note that in this situation there is zero bad blood between Kent and Michal. As they have stated in the thread that there has perfectly been resolved behind closed doors and both of them are perfectly fine, they're grown up adults.
The issue is entirely that the COC team is trying to pursue a public apology from Kent and not Michal, Despite Michal very clearly being in violation of the COC as well
MdxBhmt@reddit
You are asserting that MH violated the COC, I am asking where he did, where MH is escalating to a 'quite a large degree'. How?
Where did MH engage in this sort of language and accusations:
By the way, this sort of stuff gets you reported and moderated in all sorts of platforms, including subreddits.
This is irrelevant. The procedure is there to dissuade future disruptive behavior to protect the collective, not to make amends between two people.
intelminer@reddit
How did you possibly come away with that?
Drwankingstein@reddit
read the thread, you can start here, but read before if you wan't the further context. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/22a3da3d-6bca-48c6-a36f-382feb999374@linuxfoundation.org/
The situation was resolved, but here comes COC demanding a public appology, if this isn't peak COC buffonnery, I don't know what it is
VividGiraffe@reddit
Ya this feels pretty mild.
Both come across abrasive, the other guy is just as bad as KO in making things personal. Don’t really understand how this blew up.
rdqsr@reddit
https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/71b51954-15ba-4e73-baea-584463d43a5c@linuxfoundation.org/
Lmao. This reads like your primary teacher making you and another kid say a forced sorry to each other even though you both really don't mean it.
primalbluewolf@reddit
So, another admission by Kent that its not ready for Kernel inclusion yet and should not have been mainlined.
sensitiveCube@reddit
He also introduced other bugs, not related to bcachefs, which he also seems to fix pretty weird.
From what I've read, just do your things outside the kernel. ZFS isn't in the mainline, and I do think it's not only the license.
bobpaul@reddit
"not only" is hard to judge. The license issue is sufficient. It can't be mainlined and also can't access the full kernel API the way a GPL compatible module could. If the license was compatible it might still be out of tree, but it wouldn't include so many things that are already in the kernel.
autogyrophilia@reddit
Upstreaming was a mistake.
It has only introduced more work for him and kernel maintainers while failing to attract new developers or corporate backers
DorphinPack@reddit
Yeah like drama and communication issues aside if you’re moving that fast and wanting to keep updating during freezes then upstreaming was the mistake.
Practically speaking it can be described as a bad fit before anything else IMO.
henry_tennenbaum@reddit
I don't think it was too early. Getting bcachefs and the kernel systems to mesh together well needs bcachefs to be in the kernel.
It takes time to coordinate with the other maintainers, but that's what's required if the filesystem is supposed to be adopted at all.
Ken just seems unwilling to actually work together with those people. He wants them to do what he wants, not cooperate.
autogyrophilia@reddit
The thing is, a project of this caliber simply needs more support, and I believe he has alienated that possible support.
Investing on filesystem is not exactly a small investment, and it needs way more than 1 main developer and a few frequent contributors.
Keeping the system integrated in the kernel is not an easy feat at all, It's why other very impressive components like HAMMER2 or pf don't make it to linux despite the obvious advantages,
To pretend that a single person can do that, as well as keeping the project working at high pace without making compromises like stabilizing outer facing interfaces was overly optimistic
It would have been perhaps more wise to keep working on LTS kernels, and trying to attract actual corporate backers.
Maybe try to get a good FUSE version like ZFS has.
henry_tennenbaum@reddit
Maybe you're right. Ken seemed to hope that kernel inclusion would actually lead to corporate support. He said that that's what his contacts were telling him.
Doesn't look like any of that has actually transpired though.
He did develop the filesystem for many years outside the kernel.
DorphinPack@reddit
Tbh the more I think about it I think him imagining that getting up streamed would be a huge boon to adoption on its face is evidence of the problem as well.
It’s not a driver for hardware people already own. It’s very different — you still have to find users even if they don’t need a package to use your software.
bobpaul@reddit
It's "the COW filesystem that won't eat your data" and it doesn't fucking have scrub.
Without scrub, how can users verify it didn't eat their data? Corporate users aren't going to touch it until it has scrub.
Talk about alternating anyone working on zfs or btrfs. There's a lot of things I don't like about zfs and btrfs, but they're both mature solutions that work. I'm still waiting for bcachefs to get scrub before I take it seriously at home, and I'd never propose using it at work if it can't trust it with my own stuff.
bonzinip@reddit
It wouldn't happen in a day. Migrating to a new filesystem is not something you take lightly.
DorphinPack@reddit
From a technical perspective you’re right
From an organizational perspective it’s clear he wasn’t ready or thought they’d make an exception for him (without asking)
henry_tennenbaum@reddit
I basically agree with you, only that I think that time wouldn't have improved anything.
If he was capable of character change, there was enough time now and enough chances. It seems it's just how he is. Pity.
Drwankingstein@reddit
Kent literally announced he had some people lined up that were willing to work for him...
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
Based on that, Overstreet needs a mentor he trusts because he has poor communication skills, from what I can see.
pigeon768@reddit
At least they haven't murdered anybody.
Professional-Disk-93@reddit
It is a fact that it has not been proven in court that he has murdered anyone.
atoponce@reddit
There was nothing to prove. Hans pleaded guilty to second-degree murder.
bobpaul@reddit
I think he was making a joke by saying it hasn't been proven then Kent hasn't murdered anyone.
"At least he (Kent) hasn't murdered anyone" -> "that hasn't been proven"
Claudioub16@reddit
Yet (and I hope he doesn't, but who knows)
MrAlagos@reddit
If that's the metric then he should get along well with other famed poor communicator Linus Torvalds.
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
That is a ridiculous comment. Linus Torvalds leads one of the most innovative co-operative endeavours in human history, from being on his own to now. They are not in the same galaxy when it comes to communications skills, let alone the ability to reflect and adapt when someone tells you that things are not working so well.
Crazyachmed@reddit
Linus since the last couple of years, yes. Linus before that on the mailing list? Ooooooh, fanboy, you are very wrong.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
And was that change really for the better? The abrasive ambience on that time's LKML was well known, and people adapted. It allowed technical discussions to be done without the fear of accidentally using a wrong word, and dislike to be uttered in clear (though vulgar) terms. (The more vulgar the response, the more unacceptable the patch was, so it was easy to gauge how bad the submission really was.) And especially Linus's vulgar replies often went viral, not to call him out, but because people actually liked them.
Now everything on LKML (and in other large FOSS projects) seems to be dominated by US-American Big Tech culture: always think positive, never complain about anything, and avoid all argument. How can technical discussions be done in such an environment?
(And please do not assume anything wrong about my political orientation from the above. It is not only rightwing chauvinists who are unhappy with the way CoC enforcement is going in FOSS.)
jahjogasan@reddit
It's starting to become so bad that even mild corrections are being subject to warnings and bans. It's getting to the point where just disagreeing is an act of aggression. I received a warning on Ubuntu's discourse for pointing out a factual mistake by one of the moderators/developers.
So to answer /u/Crazyachmed, no, it's absolutely not getting better.
destraht@reddit
I'm bottom posting (that didn't quite sound like I thought it would) on a series of unpopular sentiments about how it's just too much. It should now be obvious to anyone not onboard with that already that this battle has been lost in Western tech. They're going to be increasingly stifling themselves as they continue to just somehow not be able to recreate that magic that they once had. It's all going to feel good for the feel-gooders, but much less so for anyone else. When combined with international politics it's literally a hard fracture that nobody will be able to put back together again for a long time.
BourbonCraft@reddit
imagine being so unhinged you think "behave in a manner conducive to a good and productive working environment" is somehow bad for creating a good product
destraht@reddit
Imagine being so normy you think "[corpo speak]" is somehow going to save you.
AlexeyBelov@reddit
What do you mean?
BourbonCraft@reddit
facts don't care about your feelings, snowflake
Key-Lie-364@reddit
Citation ?
Boo hoo you can't tell people to not suck off Microsoft anymore. Its political correctness gone mad !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_JCBmY9NGM
Back in the "good old days" you could mock people in your job in front of others "punching down" with highly sexualised language and everybody could "just laugh about it"
Especially if you weren't the recipient...
Crazyachmed@reddit
Yes.
Don't confuse the ability to express oneself with the emotional competence of a basement dweller.
Key-Lie-364@reddit
Yes, that time Linus told a guy to - and I paraphrase - suck a bag of dicks.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/02/linus-torvalds-i-will-not-change-linux-to-deep-throat-microsoft/
I don't know if it is true but another maintainer I know said that the guy Linus said that to, was in a quote "sexual minority". I don't know if that's true, its not like the following phrase would be significantly more acceptable if the previous statement were false.
> Guys, this is not a dick-sucking contest.
> If you want to parse PE binaries, go right ahead. If Red Hat wants to deep-throat Microsoft, that's *your* issue.
MdxBhmt@reddit
In 2013 LT had already ~20 of open source collaborative work under his belt. He wouldn't be there writing that email if he was a poor communicator, that email is not the evidence you think it is.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
I do not believe that this was intended in any way as a homophobic insult. It might have come out as one by accident, if the recipient indeed happened to be homosexual and misunderstood it as a personal attack on his sexual orientation. So I can understand that the recipient was offended. But I do not believe that that could possibly have been Linus's intent.
The swear words "dick-sucking contest" and "deep-throat" are terms that are used in metaphorical meanings in vulgar slang. It is true that those terms are somewhat homophobic and should be avoided because of that, but to insinuate from those that Linus was insulting someone because of his sexual orientation is very far-fetched.
Key-Lie-364@reddit
Is it significantly better if the target of the attack is straight?
Some how it feels not.
We shouldn't normalize this language or behavior full stop, no matter how good at engineering Linus is.
Striking-Fan-4552@reddit
Professional disagreement and discourse, including challenging ideas and nipping poor ones in the bud, as well as pointing out deficiencies in testing or other process, is paramount. But it also requires a level of mutual respect, or it ceases to be constructive and more than one party simply asserting itself over another. So, yes, it's for the better, absolutely.
ManinaPanina@reddit
"Now everything on LKML (and in other large FOSS projects) seems to be dominated by US-American Big Tech culture: always think positive, never complain about anything, and avoid all argument. How can technical discussions be done in such an environment?"
Feels like the" liberal democratic" way. They talk polite while bombing you to death "for your own good".
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
It was more than a couple of years ago, and thanks for pointing out again what I already said.
Crazyachmed@reddit
Just that I completely disagree with you. He needed the kick from the CoC to behave.
LvS@reddit
It's good that the CoC thing happened, otherwise Linux would have never gotten off the ground and we'd still be using GNU Hurd to this day.
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
They weren't kicks. Some people took him aside and gave counsel that Torvalds listened to.
Crazyachmed@reddit
Should have stated that it was a metaphor...
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
Whatever, let's hope that Overstreet can have a similar damascene moment.
Crazyachmed@reddit
I highly doubt it after what he wrote.
holyrooster_@reddit
If he was so bad, Linux simply wouldn't be where it is. Overstreet could not lead a project like Linux, let alone build it from the ground up.
Crazyachmed@reddit
You are using generalisations here to prove a false point.
holyrooster_@reddit
No its not general, its very specific.
100GHz@reddit
So, it's not the ability to cure cancer by crafting a mRNA vaccine then ?
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
Maybe not, but I know people who are working on that and quite a few of them use Linux.
wildcarde815@reddit
you mean the guy that realized his behavior was a problem and went to classes to curb it when it was clear it was counter productive?
french_violist@reddit
At least he did something about it.
mdedetrich@reddit
Yes and it took him like 3 decades
Illustrious-Tip-5459@reddit
Change is hard and takes a lot of work. A lesser man would’ve told everyone to just deal with it because it’s his project. Linus made the effort, he should be commended for it.
Pay08@reddit
And yet, we're not willing to give the same chance to another person.
Salander27@reddit
You realize that giving someone another chance requires that they first acknowledge that they're in the wrong and that they're going to try to change? At this point Kent has made zero indications that he understands that HE is the problem here, his post makes it crystal clear that he doesn't believe he's in the wrong. The first step in changing is realizing that you need to change.
Pay08@reddit
...Which took Torvalds 30 years.
Salander27@reddit
So you're saying that because it took 30 years for Linus to admit that he had an issue and try to change that we should just keep giving unlimited chances to Kent just because he COULD change in the future?
mdedetrich@reddit
If you think that Linus's behaviour (even by today's standards) is any more objectively acceptable than Kent's, I think you need to re-evalutate whats going on.
Linus gets away with it because he is at the helm.
Illustrious-Tip-5459@reddit
OK, TLDR it for me then since I've apparently come away with the wrong take.
I mean... yeah? When you own the thing you can be as much of a dick as you want. May not be a good idea in the long run but you're well within your rights to go full dictator on your own code. I'd probably be just as angry if someone was insisting on adding bad code into my project.
mdedetrich@reddit
Thats not what Linus is angry about at all, he doesn't have an issue with Kent's code (Kent is one of the talented Kernel programmers).
Key-Lie-364@reddit
"Realized" doing alot of hard work there.
He was effectively forced and not allowed to continue in his role until he had had some manners training.
mzalewski@reddit
Forced by whom?
Key-Lie-364@reddit
The foundation
Flash_Kat25@reddit
Better late than never, but it really was later than ideal. As head of the Linux project, there was a lot more pressure on Linus to do better. Ultimately, Kent doesn't have as large of a community to create that external pressure.
wildcarde815@reddit
I agree, it was good to see he did it and was willing to take a step back and admit there was an issue. But it was an issue for quiet some time before that that a subset of the community provided active cover and defense for.
mdedetrich@reddit
By that metric, the vast majority of long time Kernel contributors (including Linus) has poor communication skills, including being completely unable to provide requested evidence which caused one of the threads in context to spiral out of control.
shadow_phoenix_pt@reddit
So, KO vs CoC. Why do I somewhat get a "nazis vs commies in WWII" feel from it? Evil vs evil scenarios are always fun, though. :D
P.S. - Yes, I'm exaggerating for comedy. Don't get triggered, please.
the_abortionat0r@reddit
No one is triggered, you posted something stupid and people responded appropriately. You then ad homed everyone instead of acknowledging the issue.
nekokattt@reddit
least unhinged interpretation
purpleidea@reddit (OP)
There are many things Kent needs to surely improve, as do many others, but one important part from the article in particular that's worth discussing:
Linus, the Linux Foundation and its corporate members have an iron tight grip on the project, and we desperately need someone that has the individual user in mind, lest we end up with a compromised product.
hansendc@reddit
Those of us that work on Linux at the "big tech companies" *ARE* individual users. We care about individual users a lot. Most of use use Linux as our 'daily driver' on our own systems. I've got some pretty big multi-device btrfs filesystems out there and I'd love to see something fancier and newer come alone. I really hope bcachefs succeeds.
I work on Linux at Intel btw.
purpleidea@reddit (OP)
I know most individual hackers are awesome and do care. But the unfortunate thing is that the companies who contribute more money get much more say.
It used to be that whoever contributed more code got more say.
MrHighStreetRoad@reddit
It's GPL. Linus only has as much grip as the trust he has earned.
Open source is a do-ocracy .
There are already quite a few community kernel builds and you can always fork minix and have fun.
6e1a08c8047143c6869@reddit
Why do you think bcachefs would be in the minds of individual users and not corporate ones? For the vast majority of regular users, ext4 is good enough.
elrata_@reddit
What makes you think Linux is not for others?
EnUnLugarDeLaMancha@reddit
Linus has always had an iron tight grip on the project
Given the previous interactions between Linus and Kent, I can only guess what would have been his reaction. I suspect that getting the Linux Foundation involved is a way to make the decisions less personal
Fit_Flower_8982@reddit
Lots and lots of text to say how people responded to him, and barely a few words to say how he originated it, or pretending the cause is something else. I knew he was a toxic guy, but he is also deceitful and seems to be malicious.
It doesn't matter how good dev is if he needs to work with others, but he always manages to create drama wherever he goes.
chic_luke@reddit
This is the exact feeling I'm getting. Long rant that starts with a half apology and quickly turns that into a discussion on cultural problems with the Linux kernel.
It reads like a desperate attempt to climb on to mirrors in a desperate attempt to appear as that good guy who's being bullied and singled out, just to avoid admitting the simple truth: you acted like a jerk to other people for way too long and this finally blew up in their face. It's something very human. To put this closer to reality: what do you think will happen if you keep treating your partner like shit and ignoring their attempts at improving your relationship and establishing their boundaries? At some point you pulled the rope too much and you just get dumped. This is the same dynamic.
Honestly, he has a much better shot at not watching his filesystem die and fade into irrelevance as it gets kicked from the kernel (probably to never return), swallow his pride and ego, admit to everything, make a concrete plan forward with concrete plans for improving, and honestly just crossing his fingers that the CoC ban gets lifted. You can't act like the big guy who's always right when you're in the "should actually just beg for forgiveness" zone.
MdxBhmt@reddit
It's impressive that in every bcachefs statement, KO manages to make clear his shortcoming with kernel development. This time he even manage to put it in a single paragraph.
1) fails to understand how he deals with bugs in his codebase impacts others.
2) fails to understand how he deals with bugs outside of his code impacts others.
It's his way with much disregard to others.
Aggressive-Lawyer207@reddit
In all honesty, I hope Linus Torvalds removes bcachefs from the mainline... if he hasn't done so already. Communication comes a long way and KO sounds like someone who just because he created a filesystem, he can do what he wants and what he says. That doesn't sound like someone I would want on my team. Get him out of here!
ImAFriendlyGuy@reddit
It sounds, from my limited understanding of the situation, that KO thinks his contributions are significant enough that he has warrant to be an asshole.
Fuck him, pull that shit out. I've known too many developers with this attitude and there's never been a case where they couldn't be replaced by someone equally qualified who wasn't also an asshole.
But at least this guy hasn't murdered his wife. Does he have a wife? And if so has anyone checked on her?
purpleidea@reddit (OP)
There are many things Kent needs to surely improve, as do many others, but one important part from the article in particular that's worth discussing:
Linus, the Linux Foundation and its corporate members have an iron tight grip on the project, and we desperately need someone that has the individual user in mind, lest we end up with a compromised product.
I fear Linux not moving to GPLv3 was the first good example of this power, since companies want to be able to lock down your hardware, and legally the GPLv3 would have prevented that. This is the locked bootloader thing that Android and so many other projects have.
SanityInAnarchy@reddit
Linux never had the "or later version" clause, and never had a CLA or any other agreement with every random contributor. Even if we wanted to make it GPLv3, how would you go about doing that?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
I think he could have made it happen if he had wanted it. It might have taken years, as code was recycled, but it could happen if it was wanted.
SanityInAnarchy@reddit
So, you could start to incorporate GPLv2-or-later code. But you could only do it in code that you could clearly identify as your own original code, and not a "derivative work," because derivative works need to follow the same license. So you'd basically be adding new files under GPLv2-or-later, there'd have to be a boundary between old files and new files where you can't ever move anything from one to the other, until eventually everything is rewritten and the old files can be deleted.
Except... when on earth would everything be rewritten across that boundary? If I'm coming in with a one-line fix to an existing function, I can either submit my one-line fix, or I can come up with a completely new function written from scratch, without looking at the original one (or at least different enough that no one could accuse me of doing that), all just so that maybe in a few decades the kernel can change licenses.
If you force the issue and just refuse to accept patches to any v2-only code, then the cost of maintenance goes up exponentially. If the current Linux maintainers did that, I have to imagine they'd lose to a fork that didn't do that. The fork would be quicker to develop, and would have all the corporate contributors that make up the overwhelming majority of kernel dev these days.
And that assumes everything will naturally be rewritten eventually. Yes, there's a lot of churn, but not everything changes. Take a look at fs/ext2/file.c, for example -- you'll find a mix of changes from earlier this year, changes from ten years ago, and changes from almost 20 years ago. (Before you ask, ext4 isn't really better.)It's hard to see why anyone would bother rewriting the
ext2_file_operations
struct from scratch, or what that would even mean -- aren't you building a brand-new filesystem at that point?You'd have a better chance of rewriting it all in rust. I'm serious! Rewriting one file at a time in Rust (or adding new stuff in Rust) can actually give you improvements over C right now, today. Relicensing one file at a time as "or later" doesn't give you any of the benefits of GPLv3 until the entire kernel migrates.
And then I'm left wondering: What benefits? It's already painful to try to get projects like Android to upstream their best changes. It's not like taking the kernel GPLv3 will force vendors to unlock all bootloaders. It'll just force them to stay on their v2-only fork, or switch to one of the BSDs. It's hard to see either of those options as a victory for either Linux or software freedom.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
Indeed
Maybe there isn't. Maybe the horse already left the barn a long time ago.
gehzumteufel@reddit
This just tells us you have no idea why anything happens. Linus articulated this by someone who asked. And it has nothing to do with any of that conspiracy theory garbage you're implying.
cloggedsink941@reddit
Can you show me one instance where linus said something against a gpl violation?
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
what does that have to do with anything. Linus is really pragmatic.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
It could be correct that the linux foundation didn't want it, but as the sibling poster pointed out.. Linus himself was against it. Linus is super pragmatic. He's not your hero.
Bloodlvst@reddit
Why do I always read this as BCA Chefs whenever it comes up and need to read it 4 more times before I remember what they’re talking about lol.
UptownMusic@reddit
I remember watching some videos about the development of eBPF, another incredible innovation. The guy who had the original ideas was very impressive and the two guys at major companies who immediately saw the possible benefits were also impressive. It was a downer to see that those three guys had to tiptoe around the Linux methods/system (or whatever you want to call it) to get this innovation into the mainline. Let's just say, the kernel maintainer was not at the same level.
ByronEster@reddit
I didn't follow all the kernel code details so I skipped that, but the end is what I enjoyed. I thought it was a good read.
throwaway490215@reddit
I appreciate having the other side of the story.
It seems to me the CoC committee is a mess.
Having a code of conduct is a good thing. Having a committee that represents institutionalized authority (giving their members relative anonymity as they "act in behave of") is a fucking terrible idea.
Even if it was a set of perfect people with the best intentions, and had the guts, authority, and a magic 8 ball, to do the right thing for the long term it could still create problems.
Given that they're just mortal fallible people who are doing a job, the institution will be a detriment.
Maybe they should just split up between "PR committee" for the public coms and "counselors" for when all you need is someone to sit in as therapist/third-party when things get heated and have to be talked out in full detail.
BinkReddit@reddit
It's a long read and, regardless of what one might think about Mr. Overstreet, I enjoyed it.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
All he does is blame others for his poor communication skills. It's not a a good read.
ForceBlade@reddit
Ok