How do Serbs view Tito??
Posted by Glittering-Poet-2657@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 101 comments
So my dad is from Serbia, and one thing he always talks about is his absolute hatred for Tito, and he also constantly calls him a Nazi it a Fascist. He’s never explained why he hates Tito except for the fact that “he hated Serbs (admittedly I don’t know how true that is as I’m not very knowledgeable on Yugoslavian history),” but my Deda (who holds a lot of the same views as my father) doesn’t dislike Tito at all. So could someone tell me how other Serbs view him??
benjopasha@reddit
Only reason I can think of that some Serbs hate Tito is because during the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Serbians and Chetniks held the majority of the power as compared to the other ethnicities. When Tito came in, that stopped and power was shared among the other republics. So there might be some resentment because of that.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Yes, it's as easy as that.
Chetniks missed the train of time, there won't ever be a royal in power there.
They're basically thugs for the royal families and got some welfare money for that.
And being royalist and Serbia first could never attract too many people.
The ustaše gained much more traction, simply because they left out the royalty bs.
Hell, even Izetbegović Got almost every single Muslim behind his idea. And to non Yugoslavs, don't you think the Muslims have been oppressed. Bosnian Muslims have all been croats or Serbs before, they accepted Islam and lived privileged life's during the ottoman reign. Better education , less taxes while Serbs and croats got to pay more taxes , no fair chance to education, held the shit jobs, had to mutilate their daughters so they're not taken away to serve in a harem and you know what happened to the croat and Serb male offspring?
They simply got taken into the janisari forces. I hope this helps to these who didn't know, no offence to the Muslims living in Bosnia now, but many things go way back.
Economic7374@reddit
u have no idea what u are talking about gg
glavameboli242@reddit
💯💯💯
SamiTheAnxiousBean@reddit
idk.. people here where I am are the exact opposite, they glorify him way too much
31_hierophanto@reddit
Probably because Yugoslavia was really the only time where BiH was pretty stable.
Economic7374@reddit
Bosnia was thriving during the austrohungarian empire up until WW1
SamiTheAnxiousBean@reddit
would make sense, a majority of this region's populaton came from a group of people who fled from the Srebrenica Genocide and settled here
bosnianLocker@reddit
In BiH it's understandable, Tito basically turned an Ottoman backwater region with constant ethnic conflicts into an industrial powerhouse where everyone was united under a single banner. No one would consider modern Bosnia as a host country for the Olympics but 40 years ago we did just that mostly funded by the SRBiH republic itself.
ZAMAHACHU@reddit
He wouldn't let them genocide the other peoples in Yugoslavia, therefore he hated them.
Sandstorm_221@reddit
In almost all countries of Balkans with the exception of Croatia, the boomer generation who lived under him tend to view him like a God-like figure. The younger generations have more nuanced views, or at least those who know who he is. But I'd say generally he has significantly more admirers than haters among all age groups, in every ex-Yu country minus Croatia.
Texoraptor@reddit
Funny since he's a Croat
kruska345@reddit
Its funny cause its made up.
Acording to the conducted poll, generations 50+ are more fond of him than not
https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/anketa-a-sto-vi-mislite-ovo-istrazivanje-tvrdi-82-posto-starijih-od-45-godina-smatra-da-se-u-jugoslaviji-zivjelo-bolje-373603
And thats from my experience the most anti-Tito group due to war trauma. Younger generation is neutral to positive.
I'm not really sure who he's basing his opinion on, DP voters? Tito is still pretty controversial but i highly doubt he's more disliked than liked
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Well, he's about as Croatian as Mike Tyson. But I know what you mean
Texoraptor@reddit
Mike Tyson's Black.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Yeah sure is.
The point was, if you read about Tito's child hood etc, he would have never called himself a croat, he was a communist before any nationality, when in prison, he said it's not his laws, he will one day create his own laws.
Certainly, if he'd see Croatia today, he'd become an even more staunch communist.
kruska345@reddit
Its pretty weird that youre trying so hard to take away his ethnicity from him
Texoraptor@reddit
Mike Tyson also went to Jail
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
He said it was the best time of his life.
Texoraptor@reddit
I'm guessing he explored his options in there instead of just having female victims then : (
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
Its a thing in Croatia too. Its just that older people there are under much bigger pressure to shut about it, so they are not called traitors or whatever.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Part of my family are croats who always lived in Bosnia. They got evacuated to Croatia and they told me, suddenly the people spoke a bit different and it was expected to feel like a croat, social pressure.
They told me they'll always be Jugoslav inside, it didn't feel natural, they had their lives uprooted and half the family killed.
I see it the same way, Jugoslav wherever I am, I didn't attend that pioneer school for nothing:-)
And guess who else feels the same way, the whole diaspora and world, they see that area as collective geographical rubbish bin , with the Serbs having eaten the heaviest PR hits.
kruska345@reddit
In my impression, older ones seem fond of him while younger ones seem to dislike him a lot
alpidzonka@reddit
I'm going to quote what I commented on another post:
That last part is the one I hear most often in the wild. Not just the federalization as it was initially, but also the 1974 constitution which made Yugoslavia even more of a loose federation.
YugoCommie89@reddit
I love what Tito did to free ourselves from the Nazi menace. I loved what he did to fascists at Barbara.
He did a lot of shit wrong too with his IMF loans, but personally I think he's still a far better leader then we've ever had realistically.
Smrt Fašizmu, Sloboda Narodu.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
As crazy as it sounds, him being a dictator, it's probably true. All the split states governments have quickly filled up with total pieces of shit.
YugoCommie89@reddit
I see a dictatorship of the proletariat as a good thing. His only fault was not detecteding natuonalists and chauvanists and purging them from the party. That said, I've read elsewhere that Tito effectively lost power around about the mid 60's and that his views on how the country should function was not the dominant view of the communist party. He was apparently quite bitter about it and likely it was the cause of party functionaries becoming traitors to the proletariat.
sjedinjenoStanje@reddit
He hated Serbs so much that he married one?
AnjavChilahim@reddit
And he lived in Belgrade, writing ćirilica(Serbian letter's) and even speaking pure ekavica/Serbian.
Frederico_de_Soya@reddit
Never wrote cyclic and had problems speaking ekavacia, even some croats said to me that his ijekavica at moments had strange accents.
Magistar_Idrisi@reddit
He definitely wrote in Cyrillic from time to time, and he had a weird accent when speaking standard Serbo-Croatian of any variety because he was a peasant kid from Zagorje.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
That's not ekavica, he was a Zagor region person, the language there sounds more Slovenian than anything else. I had an ex who's mother's from there, I barely understood anything she said.
But no way it's ekavica.
Seen Vids of Tito speaking jekavica too.
It doesn't matter, but he was pure breed croat.
The ustaše and četnik folks hate him.
It doesn't matter Serb or croat, Yugoslavia is more complicated than that.
Some are nostalgic and some couldn't wait to become religious missionaries and ultranationalist in the open. All these folks have been silent or made silent , now they're everywhere.
The Yugo nostalgics and moderates anywhere will like him but wouldn't want a reprisa, the right wing strongly dislikes him.
Think of this, though, he got Yugoslavia out of Nazi occupation and didn't fall under Russia.
The nationalist in the 90s.....fucked up everything. For what?
NoHawk668@reddit
His mother was Slovenian.
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
I think he was writing in both?
Also, arent people in Zagorje (where hes from) speaking kinda version of ekavica, or at least very "soft" jekavica?
Sanguine_Caesar@reddit
Yes, Kajkavski (the main variety in the region) traditionally uses Ekavian pronunciation.
Human_Treat@reddit
The guy could barely speak serbo-croatian , and he was a croat born in croatia.
AnalysisQuiet8807@reddit
Mate do you know how many croats i know that are married to serbs that absolutely hate serbs
sjedinjenoStanje@reddit
It's only Serbs of the same gender that are the problem...
t_rex_pasha@reddit
In HD
KafkasCat7@reddit
Most Serbs I've met don't actually like him.
On the other the majority of Croats i know really respect and have a positive view of him (absurd since Croatia leans right nowadays and it's not very fond of communism), Slovenians and Bosnians also have a positive opinion of him in my experience
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
I think this is just a coincidence. Both Serbs and Croats are generally divided on this issue and you have people who see Tito as the god, and the people who see him as the devil.
Filipthehandsome@reddit
I have an impression that Croats hate him much more than Serbs do.
KafkasCat7@reddit
Ik. Based on the internet, most Croats aren't very fond of him.
But when i was growing up in Athens i had a classmate who was half Greek and half Croatian. The dude is a conservative right winger, but he always talked in favorably of Tito. His mother said that she had a wonderful life growing up in Yugoslavia.
I guess it depends. I know that people are pretty divisive on this things. Especially in the balkans. Division is what characterizes us...
HeyVeddy@reddit
I don't mean this in a rude way, because i hate identities nationalism etc because a half croat is so far from a full blooded croat. Half Croats would be exposed to the world more, have more interesting convos about how political systems work based on their lived experiences with others (such as capitalist Greece) which could make them more favorable to a socialist Yugoslavia.
Croats are in fact quite anti Yugoslavia and I would say the most anti yugoslav. It kind of goes beyond left right, because many view it as a threat to their national independence which they all seem to value.
In contract Serbians are openly pro or favorable or at the least, not ashamed or embarrassed to even discuss Yugoslavia. They don't have a fear of how someone views their opinions on Yugoslavia, i.e. it's not an awkward topic to them, and that is already to illustrative of how much more accepted it is by Serbians. In Croatia to many it's literally hell and the devil. Also not sure if you've been in Serbia, but there is a lot of yugonostalgia there, from art, Museums, Restaurants etc. Same as Bosnia
I agree Slovenians seem to be a bit more sympathetic too
KafkasCat7@reddit
Interesting to know, thank you.
I also had the feeling that most Croatians didn't like Yugoslavia based on most of comments on the internet and in comparison with what other ex-Yugo people usually say.
I just shared my personal experiences.
People from Skopje also seem to have a positive opinion about Yugoslavia. I guess they got even poorer after the dissolution...
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
I think inernet comments are tricky. Croatian nationalists are very loud group there and they have desperate desire to be heard.
KafkasCat7@reddit
Croatian Neonazis came here in Greece last year and killed a fan of the team that i support. I despise the Ustase descendants.
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
I despise Ustase as well.
You should however know, that these particular neonazis were also supported by Greek fans from Panathinaikos (who are not nazis themselfs from what I heard).
So this one was more about football hooliganism than politics.
KafkasCat7@reddit
I know. Panathinaikos Gate 13 fans were with them when the incident happened outside of our stadium.
Historically AEK has been the team of the Greek refugees and their Ultras are anti-fascist-leftists
Panathinaikos on the other hand was the team of the bourgeoisie in Athens and they also had Neonazi Ultras in the past.
Most of today's Greek football supporters though aren't divided by class or politics but this is how it all started. Whereas in Cyprus, football clubs are to this day extremely political and your ideology usually matches the team that you support.
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
I've seen poems written by Panathinaikos fans in honour of the BBB.
HeyVeddy@reddit
I don't mean this in a rude way, because i hate identities nationalism etc because a half croat is so far from a full blooded croat. Half Croats would be exposed to the world more, have more interesting convos about how political systems work based on their lived experiences with others (such as capitalist Greece) which could make them more favorable to a socialist Yugoslavia.
Croats are in fact quite anti Yugoslavia and I would say the most anti yugoslav. It kind of goes beyond left right, because many view it as a threat to their national independence which they all seem to value.
In contract Serbians are openly pro or favorable or at the least, not ashamed or embarrassed to even discuss Yugoslavia. They don't have a fear of how someone views their opinions on Yugoslavia, i.e. it's not an awkward topic to them, and that is already to illustrative of how much more accepted it is by Serbians. In Croatia to many it's literally hell and the devil. Also not sure if you've been in Serbia, but there is a lot of yugonostalgia there, from art, Museums, Restaurants etc. Same as Bosnia
I agree Slovenians seem to be a bit more sympathetic too
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
It doesent go across the spectrum. The more left leaning you are, the more pro-yugoslavian you are generally speaking. I think you are overselling both the anti-yugoslavian sentiment in Croatia, and pro-yugoslavian one in Serbia.
Topic of Yugoslavia can be very controversial and unformfotable in Serbia, and some nationalists definitely see any connection to Yugoslavia as a threat to serbian national identity. Fans of the most populat football club Red Star for example have the famous chant "Red Star Serbia, never Yugoslavia".
Meanwhile, you can get get a concert in Zagreb and Split full of people singing Yugoslavian songs. It is not that black and white.
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
Which is ironic, since the red star is a socialist symbol including in Yugoslavia.
What are the connections of Grobari to Yugoslavia, if any?
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
Tito from 1941. - 1945. good, after that questionable.
Bad things:
Sweeping ethnic hatred under carpet worked only as long as he was alive. Getting so much IMF loans thinking that capitalism will fall like wtf dude. Not having succesor. Making 2 APs in Serbia while not in any other republic, Serbs will not forgive him for that. Goli otok thing, his gulag basicaly.
Good things:
Saying Stalin goodbye. Titoism not socialism. industrialization and major infrastructure projects. Wasn't afraid of superpowers and etc.
I am neutral regarding him. My parents seem to liked Yugoslavia, did they like him don't know.
skadarski@reddit
Well I am Albanian and it's mitigated. Basically he is loved by Balkan boomers everywhere but Kosovo and Albania.
It is no secret that he wanted to annex Albania into Yugoslavia. It only failed to happen because he broke with Stalin early enough.
About Kosovo, while he managed to develop it somewhat, it still remained the poorest part of Yugoslavia. He also encouraged Albanian immigration to Turkey more or less overtly. This was during the Ranković era. And 50% of political prisoners in Yugoslavia were Albanians. So yeah Tito wasn't that good to Albanians, but at least he wasn't Enver Hoxha. But yeah I don't Kosovo boomers hate him, it's mainly neutral. They like the relative travel freedom during his rule.
AnjavChilahim@reddit
He was communist so he's a controversial figure with some mistakes over the years. As any other historical person he had his flaws.
Vox populi is divided because people don't love objectively look on someone so they are naturally divided into pros and cons.
But to see what he really was we need to see what Croats and Serbs have in common. Both nazzi subgroups believe that he hated them. Nazzi sympathisers from Croatia strongly believe that he hated Croatia and Nazzi sympathiser from Serbia is convinced that he hated Serbs.
In 1948 KPJ had internal issues so some radical communists ended on Goli otok. Those were the hardcore pro USSR. Tito sends them to prison there.
Until the WW2 end game Communists hated royalists and Nazis from Serbia and Croatia and they hated communism so much that they regularly killed or slaughtered even their family members. Until 1948. After the clash with Comintern right wing pro nazzis and royalists started to adore people who were suffering because of Goli otok and trials against Stalinists.
Both nazzi and royalists try to deny their war crimes so they become saints and partisans become much worse than Satan himself.
Both sides are wrong because the truth is that Ustaše and most of the Chetniks were pure Nazis. Some of them were patriots (at least they believed in that) but they were on the wrong side of history.
Communists believe that he was a "saint". That's also wrong. He did "forget" to punish partisans who did atrocities and he was an autocratic person but not a dictator. He was recognised in the world as a great leader, head of one of the strongest antifashist movements and, it might be his biggest mistake, he built a strong country with industrial potential much stronger than today.
In real life those debates are used for evading to speak about criminals, corruption, poor standards, and hopelessness. He is some kind of "ace" in daily politics to be used in fighting which goal is to stop solving the problems we have. When we fight about Tito legacy thieves can do whatever they want and even accuse others of being eager to speak about nowadays problems.
Communism definitely died in 1990, WW2 ended in 1945 and sick, delusional persons even today see everywhere their invisible enemies and put blame on their grandchildren. And that will never stop. We can't do better.
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
This is pretty fair and balanced assessment.
Perazdera68@reddit
And that is typical view for people that liked Tito and communism. Always try to balance that the Croats weren't completelyl bad ones and that the Serbs were. There is no comparison between Serbs and Croats. All Croats were nazis (not people, but state, army etc) while Serbs were either communists or royalists. Chetniks were anti-facists, which Serbian parlament confirmed, and bothe Partizans and Chetniks fought the occupying German forces. I am not denying that Chetniks didn't do any crimes, but it is totally different than Ustashe. Ustashe and Croats were organized on a state level, had concentration camps (even for children!) while Cheniks were regular Yugoslav Royal army. After the war started, they were devided into several groups with no central command and some of the groups might have commited some crimes, but nothing centrally organized or on the level the Croats did.
Main-Economics1955@reddit
Look at the Serbs . Use have done the same shit genocide as everyone else always playing the victim .
blodskaal@reddit
Your father is probably a baddie, that's why he didn't like Tito
Glittering-Poet-2657@reddit (OP)
As in a bad person??
blodskaal@reddit
Yep. Two types of people hated Tito. Rich people and corrupt people, other than westerners. Those two often colluded. Your father could have been a Coca Cola/Pepsi Andie too. Kokta wasn't good enough for him lol
Ok_Detail_1@reddit
Four. Whistelbowlers and freedom of media like in case "Ljubičica bijela" and othera who speak, draw and publish about how big corruption (also rasism, war crimes and staged trials) inside Communist Party (mostly between start of rebelllion 1941 to death of Tito in 1980) in DFJ/FNRJ/SFRJ and Radicals and Yugoslav Democrats were Kingdom of SHS/Yugoslavia.
And expansionist of either Italy and Soviet Russia, just like Yugoslav exoansionists inside who use their rights to abolish borders or expand borders of their own republic, including ones without any trials.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
The corruption in the communist party gets dwarfed by the corruption of what followed.
The communist have been modest in comparison, but then again, they never had a good grasp of economy matters.
Less knowledge, less exploits.
Tito had some villas and residences here and there, which contradicts him being communist in my opinion.
The Jewish gangsters around him, Pijade and co, as well as all the adjacent people never had a lot of wealth and neither did their off spring. This indicates they didn't steal enough to create a dynasty.
Milo D. probably has much more money then the top 20 communists added together.
They have been corrupt with other things.
31_hierophanto@reddit
His father was also most likely a Chetnik.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Not sure, but likely hard putter right politically.
Did he do many weekend trips to Bosnia during the war and come back with new clothes and TVs?
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
Everybody who says "they hate him" or "they love him" is a liar. He is probably the most controversial figure in the modern history. He has a lot of admirers and a lot of haters too. I would say this is the case for every former yugoslavian nation.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
So... Doesn't that make it true and not liars?
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
So he wasn’t a fascist. His whole life was dedicated to ending fascism and when he did it (in Yugoslavia), he made his defining feature as a leader for 35 years after until the day he died.
In terms of opinion you’re always going to encounter a split in the Balkans. I feel most young Serbs feel neutral towards him, and I’d say most older Serbs (60+) like him, while middle aged Serbs are divided, though I’d still say the majority like him.
The real truth as to how Tito was has been very quickly lost to history. Some people look at him through rose colored glasses, others falsely accuse him of things he never did. Some will say they were prospering under his reign and some will say it felt like being a peasant in the Soviet Union.
You’ll have to make up your own mind about him (if you care to do so). Be warned though, you could get a degree in that field and still only be at the tip of the iceberg
HeyVeddy@reddit
No one has claimed it was like being a peasant in the Soviet union. The narrative has always been that it's better in Yugoslavia than in the Soviet union. Those that don't like it didn't like socialism, but there were hardly people that preferred a different type of socialism than titoism. They exist of course but the main narrative was socialism vs capitalism rather than saying Yugoslavia was as poor or poorer than the ussr
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Well I thought so too, until I heard people claiming it was like being a peasant in the Soviet Union 😅
I told them nah. They countered with how they had to wait in line for coffee, there was no bananas, rolling blackouts, didn’t have money to pay for transportation etc…
Turns out that’s all true. I personally don’t think it’s fair to say “peasant in Soviet union”, but Yugoslavia was definitely not even close to capitalist
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Nah, not soooo true.
The shops shelves have been looking alright.
As for train tickets, mate, have you been alive in Yugoslavia? On the trains the tickets checkers would not ask ticket please. They would ask who has a ticket.
They didn't gaf , train was basically free for deliberate lack of enforcement , or kinda you only pay if you want.
Depending which province, some western goods were impossible to get hold of. Like rolling stones records, my family had them and hid them like a treasure.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Again, I agreed with you until my friend told me the story about how her aunt didn’t finish elementary school (illegal) because her parents didn’t have money to send her on the transport. She said “even if the ticket cost 5 dinars, they didn’t even have that much”
I kind of think she’s lying, but people don’t like when you tell them that
BishoxX@reddit
Main criticism is never economic situation.
Its the totalitarianism and opression of certain groups. And the warcrimes at the start of it.
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
Main criticism is usually nationalism, or lack of nationalism.
Calling Titos regime totalitarian renders that word meaningless. And the warcrimes were mostly commited against fascists at the end of the war.
BishoxX@reddit
Warcrimes are warcrimes regardless who are they commited against, and there were plenty innocent slaughtered.
His regime was absolutely totalitarian. You couldnt speak out at all against him or the party, they had people reporting everywhere, police were brutal and authoritarian. I dont know how you can not call his regime totalitarian . Its like the pure definition of a totalitarian state
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
No, they are not. Warcrimes against innocent civilians and nazi collaborators are very different things morally. What is "plenty"? If some innocent people got mistaken for fascists, how is that on Tito?
No, it wasnt. What is, according to you the difference between totalitarian and authoritarian regime?
You could. Milovan Djilas did it. Koča Popovic did it. You could get harder life, or you may not be able to find a good job, but you were not killed or imprisoned for it automatically.
So what? They had that in USA in 1950s too. Thats not necesarrily mark of totalitarian regime.
Thats because you dont read technical literature. if you actually read books from historians and sociologists, you would see how easy is to not call totalitarian.
Lol, Titos Yugoslavia :D?! A "pure" definition? You really dont know what that word means then.
BishoxX@reddit
You were absolutely imprisoned for it. I had family members imprisoned for speaking out. I had friends of family members imprisoned for singing nationalistic songs(not fascist ones).
Oppresive police is absolutely a mark of a totalitarian regime.
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
Not always. It depends what your criticizm was and how loud you were. There are straight up movies we have where there are mild critizisms of communist party. Then you communist party criticizing itself, or different groups criticizing each other. So it was not a complete hive mind like in totalitarian society.
Singing nationalist songs is not "speaking out". Nationalism was was also punished selectively, and it depended on time and place, but nationalism was also actively trying to destry the country.
It could be, but it doesent have to be. Is spanish police opressive for beating the Catalonians? Yes, but on its won that doesen make Spain a totalitarian country.
let me ask you again. What is the difference between the dictatorship, autoritarian country and totalitarian country? Or are these words interchangeable for you?
BishoxX@reddit
They are not interchangable but yugoslavia was all 3 until Titos death.
Idk why you are trying to defend it as not totalitarian.
I know of 100s of examples of imprisonment for dissent. I know of 100s of informants who you couldnt speak openly about and who would recieve land or benefits when someone around them got imprisoned. Like in which fantasy world do you live in that you think Yugoslavia wasnt totalitarian.
Terrible_Resource367@reddit
Ok, so what is the difference between those? If Yugoslavia was totalitarian, what is the example of country that was authoritarian.
Because it was not, and most historians would agree with me.
None of that is the mark of totalitarian society. Things that you described were present in 1950s USA as well.
It is this land called reality. You should try to visit it sometimes.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
I will not cite examples, each is free to inform themselves. But with no open mind to be neutral, it's pointless.
The USA to this day are pretty much a republican semi authoritarian regime. For European standards, the American left is still right wing.
The USA is a bs country with incredible racism issues, it is not really governed by the rule of law, but rather by the rule of money. Their free speech thing was always bs , you better not declared yourself a communist there, but they didn't after ww2 , send groups to re education camps.
BishoxX@reddit
You would get imprisoned if you said fuck Eisenhower ? Glad i learned the first amendment was suspended in the 50s, good to know 👍
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
The dissolution happened because of folks like Alija , a former re education camp inmate. Not sure if that's good or bad, but it had consequences. And then some folks like Milošević turned from communist to nationalist overnight. How anyone could buy his communist bs is beyond me, he used to be a banker in new York.
Croatia always preferred to rather clean the Habsburgs horses excrement rather than to participate in uniting with anyone else.
Tito's regime worked based on oppression, but economy was good and you could leave for Germany etc.
But all it took was his death and and economic crisis and the rest is history.
Such conflicts are typically happening at the end of dictatorships, not in democracies.
The commies fucked up, easy as that. If there would have been open elections, it'd have helped to indicate some trends.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
I have had family members imprisoned and put into ludnice from both the communists and the fascists.
They lived in almost huts with no water in the house in remote mountains where you get water from a well.
They weren't even literate, let alone politically opinionated.
You know how that goes in the region , the next 2 generations get a first name "ludi" prefix in the village, and the 3rd generation will suffer "they have lunatic lineage".
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Brate, they did worse than imprison. If you had newsletters or such, you end up dead.
For lesser political disagreements, you would be sent to re education camps worse than the Chinese ones today.
Look, fascist croats did jasenovac , they try to play down the numbers , Serbs try to inflate them. Either way it's documented and the folks killed on the death march were exactly the guards of the camps and collaborators.
Not nice, the Bleiburg massacre, but deserved. Even the Nazis were horrified by the brutality of the ustaše.
So let's not whitewash Tito's BS, this will only make sure that something like the yu idea will never happen again.
Tito had the right ideas but commited some hefty mistakes, if these aren't admitted and addressed, history repeats.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Pardon, but it was totalitarian.
By denying that, the croat nationalism will just be fueled.
Lol, Serbia under Milošević was much less totalitarian.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Part 1 I agree.
Part two you mean the march to Austria where the UK screwed over the ustaše.
Look, Tito, a croat, ordered that and everyone knows why. Club "J".
Let's leave it at that.
AggravatingIssue7020@reddit
Yea to call fascist is way wrong
Correct term is dictator.
Not benevolent. He did little purges, terrorised folks by sending to Goli otok(they didn't know where they go, some really bad treatment, I am pro Tito and pro yu, but that was just wrong).
And Udba would go and murder all kinds of nationalist and regime critic people.
They also went after some Nazis and got them, which is a good thing. One might say no justice no day in court, but the Nazis were on the lam with new identities, they didn't want a day in court.
Apprehensive_Rub4924@reddit
A strong Yugoslavia requires a weak Serbia ~ Tito. There‘s your answer. Lets just say that he definitely didnt like Serbs for his own reasons, to say the least. And Serbs who have at least 1% brain capacity dont like him either, including me. I genuinely hate Tito and those Ex-Commie Serbs (mostly older people) that glorify him. But on an average level, Serbs have a more negative view of him although Serbia sometimes gets portrayed as ‚Pro‘-Tito/YU for whatever reason which is simply not true.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
Biggest evil we had to endure.
TomatoVEVO@reddit
Idk I wasn't born yet
Genetherapydenier@reddit
Fuck him, nobody likes him apart of modern leftists and boomers here
Puzzleheaded_Sir903@reddit
I was born after Tito died so I have neutral feelings about him.
My grandmother disliked Tito because she claimed Tito could have liberated Jasenovac much sooner and saved many lives, but he chose not to.
Srki90@reddit
Because Serbs were the largest and most powerful group in the federation, naturally he weakened Serbia to strengthen the federation.
I don’t think he had anything against Serbs personally but for the sake of unity you can’t have the largest group control the military, economy and government.
AlexMile@reddit
Imagine a guy in restaurant who orders a lot of good food and drinks for large bunch of friends on the table, to excitement and joy of everyone, ate and dank more than others but vanish some time before party is over leaving rest of the gang to pay the bill, with larger bill for those who stayed longer at the table. Well, that guy is Tito and Serb stayed longest.
Stverghame@reddit
Faat forward to 2024 and many of his policies still have negative consequences for Serbia's integrity, while positive for other ex-Yu countries. While he nominally supressed all nationalisms in Yugo, he only made sure that Serbs are the ones facing consequences after he's gone, while others remain untouched.
Plane-Bug-8889@reddit
My Macedonian family likes him same with the Bosnian family. lol. I find it odd that Serbs of all people would hate him.
Maecenium@reddit
Hello Bratko!
The answer is very simple. Communists executed (at least) 60.000 Serbs, after the war.
If you know his home town or village - check this list
http://www.komisija1944.mpravde.gov.rs/
Or, go to any Serbian club abroad and ask random old ex-Royalists. Each one of them will tell you some serious horrors.
After the war, they had internal fight between pro-Soviet and pro-Yugoslavian communists
Voja_zi@reddit
You rarely meet anyone who sees him in a good light.
Texoraptor@reddit
Not a Balkaner, I've met a few. He's a polarizing political figure. From my very limited POV seems to follow family heritage lines. ("My great grandfather fought for Tito, I like him" or "My great-grandfather and his brother were Chetniks" screw him) For some he's a symbol of unity, for others a symbol of oppression of conservatism. Each has their own opinion. I think he's way more popular in Bosnia though.